Hi Countrysiders,

Brian from Cincinnati again. My wife and I are still having a little trouble finding much acreage around here within our price range and within my wife's commuting range. So, I was wondering if anybody could suggest just how much acreage would be really necessary to grow crops enough for food for just a small family, not for profit at all and with no livestock. I'd also like to know if anyone knows of any methods of buying land that allow you to "add-on" acreage as you are able to afford it. As always, thanks for your responses.

Brian

-- Brian (margieametz@yahoo.com), June 25, 2001

Answers

We supply practically all of our fruit and vegetables and harvest some for produce stand sales from just a 1.2 acre tract with two gardens ( one traditional, one a squarefoot garden bisf)and five strategically placed fruit trees. I am currently looking at adding small stock (a few laying hens, rabbits and a couple milk goats). You just have to make the most of what you have, be it one acre or one hundred. Some Asian countries have commercial farming on 3/4 acre. Look at some of Ken's Croatia threads. He describes a small scale homestead environment. Buy what you can afford.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), June 25, 2001.

Hi Brian, We only have 3/4 of an acre and manage a garden large enough to supply just about all our vegetable needs. We also have currents, blackberries, strawberries, rhrubard, herbs and an apple tree. We also have a dozen hens that supply eggs that I use for barter.

Good luck and I second Jay's suggestion to buy what you can afford.

Wishing you enough.

-- Dianne in Mass (dianne.bone@usa.net), June 25, 2001.

We only have an acre at the moment, but the ownwer owned this parcel, and the one to the west and north--he runs a auto repair business on the west tract, but part of the sale was right of first refusal at reasonable market value for the 5 acre or so parcel to the north-- maybe looking for something like this might help.

-- Brendan K Callahan (sleeping@netins.net), June 25, 2001.

Brian, When figuring communting range dont rely on just miles between locations. rely on travel time. When my family went looking for land we look all over central ohio. Found a nice place about 30 miles out but the commute would have been a nighmare and require 1.5 hours to get to work. Later found a place 50 miles out with a 45 minute commute.

-- Gary (gws@redbird.net), June 25, 2001.

You could easily feed your family on an acre. The most important thing is to only grow the food you will eat. Also, the layout is important in using the land most efficiently. The addition of fruit trees and small fruits is also nice to have. They can add the "extras" to make your meals even more special. Storing the food is also a main consideration as you will want to make the food last throughout the year so you should have plenty of place to store foods that you can as well as a root cellar or similar storage area to keep things like potatoes and squash, etc. I think that part of the fun is getting the most out of the least amount of land. On an acre you could still have room to raise some chickens and rabbits and ducks if you want to raise meat and eggs as well.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), June 25, 2001.

Great Thread. How much is enough?

Dianne, I love your sign off "Wishing you enough", Yes,may we all have what we feel like is enough!.May our bowls of good home produce be full!

Brian I think that it would be better to start with not enough, then to start with too much. There can be so much to learn through trail and error{or as I like to say, through joy and achievements!}but then there is the other side of the stroy, what if you buy a lovely little place and put your youth and your vigor into it, to find out that you need more to asccomplish your dreams!

We have a wonderful little 1.5 acres. A home, a barn, a smokehouse, a summer kitchen. On this 1.5 acres. we grow enough to keep ourselves and to give and to barter with. We have plenty of apples, asparagus, Rhubarb, strawberrys, raspberrys, blackberrys, grapes,peaches,cherries, elderberrys, Jims garden yields an abundant assortment of fresh vegetables, which we eat, can, freeze and dry. We also grow a variety of herbs and make our teas and tinctures. there is also plenty of room for lots of lovely flowers. The old trees have their spots, the elm and the maples, there is a stand of pines, under which I grow my Yam root,bloodroot, wild ginger and such. We also raise chickens and every spring ,mama hen free ranges throughout the yard and gardens. So as you see you sure can grow alot on a little spot. It's so funny because often I feel as if my whole universe were here! The sun, the moon, and the stars, a plot of land, water and produce, what else do I need.!

But sometimes I have a longing for a little stream to know in peace. A woods to wander of my own. But how will we ever leave all the grapevines ,berrie bushes, plots of herbs and medicinals that we have planted and tended! We are also closer to the road that we are finding comfortable.

We could have gotton more land for the same price as waht we paid for this, but it would have been farther from Jim commute to work down curvey roads. Gary brings out a good point. It is just too hard on a person to travel too far to work every day. If you are really interested in a place you should drive there after work and see how the drive is. Miles can sometimes fool you. We would have loved to live down in the hills more.The drive home could be more trying then the work!

Gosh , what kind of answer is this, I am going in circles! I think that ther is no right or wrong . Perhaps all of us have helped you see how much you can do on a little bit. Only you know how bad you want more and if you are willing to pay for it.

At this time we are thinking of buying a spot on down on those country roads, a place to camp out in the woods, and perhaps a place to retire to when Jim no longer has to drive those roads to work.

Brian, All luck on the serch for your home, What an exciting time! Tren

-- trendle ellwood (trendlespin@msn.com), June 25, 2001.

Brian,

You have had a lot of good thoughts here. I once "homesteaded" on a rather small city lot........every inch that did not have the house sitting on it grew food and a few flowers for the soul. The garage had rabbits for manure and meat. Had all the tomatoes, grean beans, strawberries and many other veggies that we could eat and put up for the year (myself and 3 young children) Went to the farmer's market for what I didn't grow and put that up. Ideally if you could purchase 5 acres you could have all that you would need for a couple of milk goats, with room to raise your own meat. When you stay small in numbers you can purchase feed fairly easily from neighboring farmers and all that you bring in goes right on your land as processed by your livestock (that is saying that down the road you might want some livestock)......personally I would go in debt to have that much land and then just work hard to pay it off. Have you read any of the books like "Five Acre Eden"??? fun reading.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), June 25, 2001.

Assuming the price is reasonable, having more land than technically you can efficiently utilize still provides a buffer against future neighbors.

A relative in the Milwaukee area bought three lots in a new subdivision and built on the middle one. On one side was a garden and small fruit orchard, on the other a good sized playground for their kids and others. When they retired they sold the two extra lots, now in a well-established area, which funded a rather comfortable retirement - as well as relieving them of a fairly substantial tax bill.

On Croatia, the typical homestead is from about 1/4 to 1/2 acres in size, narrow and long. My grandmother's house had closer to 1/2, and at one time it provided almost all of the food for eleven people.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), June 25, 2001.

Climate is also a key factor in asking "how much is enough". If you were to live in the southwest water is another issue. All the above answers are great. But it really depends on what you want to do. Certain things just will not grow in certain climates. But you know the area, what grows well there? What about water for the garden? Do you get enough rain? Is the growing season long enough? Where I live climate is a key factor. Also we have a well for water. If I had to pay for water we could not afford it.

Things to think about.

-- Tom S. (trdsshepard@yahoo.com), June 25, 2001.

Simply increase the wife's "commuting range" (get her a truck with dual fuel tanks), that'll solve the problem. :)

-- Never! (I'll@nevertell.com), June 25, 2001.

Brian- Another reference you might read is Jeff Ball's "The Self-Sufficient Suburban Gardener". Also, if you haven't already, read Mel Bartholomew's "Square Foot Garden". You might be amazed at how much you can produce in a small area. I use the SFG method and produce an incredible amount of food in an area that is less than 100'x100'. I have recently added citrus trees (I am in Florida) and peaches. I have a 20' x 60' blackberry patch that provides more than I can use. When I moved out here 5 years ago I bought 5 acres with an old run down house on it. I had a small mortgage, so I did not have to work much to pay my expenses, which left me lots of time to play around in the garden, fool with my sheep and pigs, and swim in the spring fed pond. After a couple of years the 10 acres in front of me was subdivided into 1 acre lots, with an access road running right along my fenceline. I hated all the noise and traffic, so when the 10 acres on one side of mine became available I bought it, along with a beautiful custom built home, 2000 sq ft barn, additional outbuildings, a huge tax bill, and a whopping huge mortgage. I have since spent more time away from home working than I would like to, and have less time to enjoy the fruits of my labor and my garden! But, my area is developing rapidly and if I had not added the additional property my original 5 acres would have been surrounded and in my opinion, not worth living on! So, I have rented out the old house and 5 acres, gotten a roommate to share my new house, obtained an agricultural exemption on the whole 15 acres which cut my property taxes in half, and I expect to have the mortgage paid off by the end of this year. Then, I can get back to serious gardening, etc. In the long run it will have been worth it- my plan is exactly what Ken's relatives did- in time, if I need the cash, I will sell each of the 5 acre parcels on either side of me. I would not recommend taking on a huge debt for a long period of time, after all, you want to have enough leisure time to enjoy what you do have, but for me it was worth taking on the debt since I knew it would be for a short time only. In reality though, I don't NEED the extra 10 acres. But, it's nice to have it as a buffer against the ongoing development around here.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), June 25, 2001.

Hi Brian!

Having got caught in Cincy Monday morning traffic after a weekend in KY, I can empathize with Your concerns about commuting!!! The above suggestions are all good regarding that.

The land issue really depends on what You want to achieve. My best advice would be reading "The Contrary Gardener's Invitation to Gardening" by Gene Logsdon, "The 60-minute Vegetable Gardener", and the book recommended in last week's post 'Reading a good book'(I forget the title of the book, but read it this weekend. It IS good!) All of these books address gardening in small spaces. You might also check indexes for Countryside under small gardens and homestead layout / design. There is alot of info out there, just takes time to find it.

The last time I was in Cincy, noticed the Northeast side above the outerbelt seems sparsely used. Perhaps an acre there would work. You might have some success looking out East on 33. I came through Marysville 2 weekends ago cominng back from Lexington. Seemed like 'For Sale' signs were plentiful and quite a few looked like 'fixer-uppers'. I'm guessing there might be similiar places along the River between there and Cincy. Gene talks about an older couple who had a place on a few acres down along the River, so it's possible.

Hope this helps a little. Good Luck!!!!

Randle

-- Randle Gay (rangay@hotmail.com), June 25, 2001.

On a city lot, we had 2 apple trees, 2 grape vines, a quince, 3 or 4 plums, a sour cherry, a peach tree (that never did much of anything), a pear tree, 3 crabapples, chickens, and a garden that took up half the back yard. We canned and had a 3 year back log of jelly even though we gave a heck of a lot of it away. The only things we ran out of from the garden canned stuff were tomatoes and corn (never even had enough of that to can, it all got eaten fresh). We fed a family of 7 on this. We bought food too, but not near as much as if we'd had no garden and orchard.

This was a city lot, nowhere near 1/4 acre. You can do a whole heck of a lot with just a little bit of land. Chickens don't need much room, and neither do rabbits, so you can still have your own meat.

Get a copy of Gene Logsdon's "Two Acre Eden" for some ideas of just how much you can do with just a little bit of land. In "Small Scale Grain Raising" (also by Gene Logsdon) there are pretty good descriptions of how much you can grow in how much space, and how much feed you're probably going to need for your animals. You'll almost certainly have to go interlibrary loan to get "Small Scale Grain Raising", its a tough one to find, but an EXCELLENT resource.

Yes, Gene Logsdon is my hero. :D

Contrary Peasant

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 25, 2001.

I gardened, canned, made bread, raised hens for eggs, roosters for meat along with rabbits in a lot in the city.

I do however agree with Ken about the buffer zone. Purchase as much land as you can afford now, looking very carefully at the annual taxes. You will more than likely not utilize large acreage, but even just maintianed for your wood pile, that buffer zone is very important! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), June 25, 2001.

If you can afford to do so, one nice aspect about having more than than you can efficently utilize is to act as a future buffer against close neighbors.

On the Croatia reference, my grandmother comes from a homestead of less than one-half acre. At one time it provided almost all of the food for eleven people living there.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), June 25, 2001.

Whatever else you do, don't forget to check on regulations and restrictions. Being "in the country" doesn't mean there aren't restrictions against livestock, or building codes and regulations that can cause you major headaches. I know of one woman who bought land with a house and barn on it, the barn was in bad shape and she thought she would replace it. Only to find out that there was a restriction against building any new agricultural outbuildings - she can't build herself a new barn!

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 25, 2001.

Has anyone mentioned this? I assume that some parts of the US would need twice as much land as others just because of variations in length of the growing season.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), June 25, 2001.

We're in an area that isn't zoned (yet). All of which is great, but the over 20 acres we own sometimes seems too small! Though our 'domestic space' acreage doesn't always look as nice as others 1- acre plots, we are caring for the whole thing carefully. Wish we had more!

Guess I mean that there is never enough when you love what you are doing. Enjoy the challenge of big/small space and do what works for you.

-- Anne (HealthyTouch101@wildmail.com), June 25, 2001.

Sojourner and Randle

and Dianne I allready got to tell you, Gene Logsdon is going to be at the Lancaster Ohio local library, Sat.July 7th. 1-4. Only miles from me! I can't wait to meet this hero! If I get a chance to say anything to him, I am going to tell him how we all adore him.!

P.S. Randle, I don't often meet someone who's name rhymes with mine! Cool ,Trendle

-- Trendle Ellwood (trendlespin@msn.com), June 27, 2001.

First, don't rush and buy just anything to have the land. Make sure you and your family love what you buy, and are realistic about it. The smaller the piece of land the higher the potential for problems if the purchase is not thought through. Neighbors are closer, may have future zoning problems, land may not be suitable for a future use...

Don't rule out small livestock, if you do you may end up on a piece of land that you can't raise live stock on - and you will regret it if you then change your mind and want some tasty home grown pork. ;)

Don't buy until you and the wife drive from the land to her work during her travel times. I made this mistake in buying a previous house... My optomistic one way drive time went from 40 mins to a realistic 1 hr - 1 hr 15 mins during peak hours. By the time we moved from there I was willing to do almost anything to get rid of that drive!!! Now I get to work from home. ;)

I would try to buy directly from the land owner, you may be able to get better terms, and a binding option to buy adjacent acerage in the future.

Good Luck.

-- Will in NC (nc_homesteader@msn.com), June 27, 2001.