Wednesday June 20 8:06 PM ET

Police: Texan Says She Killed Her Five Children

By C. Bryson Hull

HOUSTON (Reuters) - A 36-year-old woman suffering a long bout of postpartum depression confessed to allegedly killing her five children in their Houston home on Wednesday, a crime police said could have her facing the death penalty.

The four boys and a girl, 6 months to 7 years old, appeared to have been drowned in the bathtub, they said.

The woman, Andrea Yates, has taken medication for depression since the birth of her youngest boy two years ago, but John Cannon, a spokesman for the Houston Police Department, said the role her illness might have played in the crime would not be clear until she gave a formal statement.

A television report showed the longhaired, bespectacled Yates, her shirt torn in many places, being led away in handcuffs by police.

She was not charged for the crimes, but Cannon said, ``Rest assured, it is going to be carried as a capital murder case.'' In Texas, capital murder carries a maximum penalty of death by injection.

He said the woman called police to her home in a modest southeast Houston suburb in the shadow of NASA (news - web sites)'s Johnson Space Center in midmorning.

Yates was wet, breathing heavily and clearly disturbed when the first officer arrived on what he thought was a routine welfare check, Cannon said.

``She said to the officer, 'I killed my children,' and the officer said, 'Where are they?''' Cannon told reporters.

The woman took the officer to a bedroom, where he pulled back a sheet on a bed to reveal four still-wet bodies -- Yates' sons Luke, 2, Paul, 3, and John, 5, and 6-month-old daughter Mary.

The fifth child, Noah, 7, was found in the bathtub by a second officer responding to the call, Cannon said.

FATHER ARRIVES WITH POLICE

Cannon said the father, whom neighbors identified as Russell Yates, arrived at the house at the same time as police.

His wife of eight years had called him at work seconds after calling police and had told him simply, ``You better come home,'' Cannon said.

Officers refused to let him inside as they discovered the bodies inside the tan, one-story brick home, where a dog barked and a blue bus, apparently the family's private recreational vehicle, was parked on Wednesday. He was not a suspect in the crime and was cooperating with investigators, Cannon said.

Neighbor Raymond Rivera said the Yates children regularly played outside and three of them enjoyed themselves during a birthday party at his home on Saturday.

Rivera said he was surprised Andrea Yates had not joined her husband and children at the party and asked his neighbor why.

``He told me his wife didn't want to come because she was depressed from having the last babies,'' Rivera said.

Harris County Child Protective Services spokeswoman Judy Hay said that Yates had been hospitalized two years ago for a suicide attempt via overdose. CPS investigated to ensure someone was caring for the children and took no action after finding they were being watched after, Hay said.

Rivera said he believed Russell Yates did computer work for NASA. Space agency spokesman James Hartsfield confirmed that Russell Yates worked in the space shuttle program.

As detectives and medical examiners worked inside the house, from which no windows face the street, neighbors stood outside in disbelief as heavy rain fell.

``I'm so shocked this happened so close to where I live and there are five children who will never get a chance to grow up. It's horrendous,'' Shelly Sampson said, weeping.

The killings echo the infamous Susan Smith case, in which the South Carolina mother drowned her two sons by driving her car into a lake in 1994. After initially blaming a carjacker, Smith later confessed she killed the kids after a man she loved rebuffed her because she had kids. She was sentenced to life in prison.

-- (no birth control, no abortions @ have 5 kids. then kill them), June 20, 2001

Answers

Yep, that dumbass Dumbya turned Texas into a breeding ground for rightwing wackos. If he thinks he's gonna do that to our country he's got another thing coming.

-- Judas Priest (small suprise @ between. the eyes), June 20, 2001.

Stupid shit, what has this tragedy got to do with Christianity, Bush or political ideology?

-- (Paracelsus@Pb.Au), June 20, 2001.

We ought to give the death penalty to all repugs (in order to protect true patriots like ourselves).

-- true patriot (long@live.gore), June 20, 2001.

Gee TP, looks like your fearless leader is gorging hisself into a cardiac ward. But that’s cool, you can stuff the fucker and run him as 'stiff' competition in 2004.

-- Make (it@super.size), June 20, 2001.

I don't think it is like the Susan Smith case, she wanted another man and no baggage.

This woman sounds like she was overwhelmed by the responsability of so many children so fast. Hormones and depression and 24/7 care of the children seems to have driven her over the edge. I wonder if she had the choice to limit her amount of offspring. No matter what punishment she gets, she will live a lifetime of hell over her actions.

-- Cherri (jessam6@home.com), June 21, 2001.

To the cold hearted bastard who started this thread,

I just wept as I read about five innocent children who died today at the hands of their own mother. But you, you sick, twisted, evil, cold hearted bastard, had no more compassion than to try and use this tragedy as a slam against Christians, Bush, and those who oppose abortion. You are the lowest form of sludge that I have ever witnessed.

I hope that you take the opportunity to trample on the deaths of these children out in public, like you so cowardly did over the internet. Then I hope that some decent human beats you to within an inch of your worthless life.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 21, 2001.

"Stupid shit, what has this tragedy got to do with Christianity, Bush or political ideology?

-- (Paracelsus@Pb.Au), June 20, 2001."

Hey dumbfuck, didn't you even read the names of the kids in the article??

This lady is obviously another one of Duhbya's born-again Fundamentalist Christian wacko hypocrites. They say it is a sin to use birth control or have abortions, so they go on a fucking spree, realize they can't handle the kids, then they kill them.

This is clearly just another one of the fucked-up Duhbya worshipping Repugs who think that Jesus will forgive them for being out of their freakin minds.

-- (get @ clue. parasleaze), June 21, 2001.

I'm trying to understand the context of the original poster... is he saying that killing your kids is a tenet of Christianity? No? Then is he saying that it's better to kill your kids before they're born so that you don't have to bother with it afterwards? No? Is he saying that if you have more than four kids you become a threat to them, and should be locked up on suspicion? No? Then, exactly WHAT is his point?

-- GoNow (No.Wait@What.Huh), June 21, 2001.

It is my considered belief that the originator of this thread, as well as the respondents criticizing the "repugs", are in fact the same person, namely Louis (Mr. Polly).

-- Mr Keene (TracerOf@Lost.Persons), June 21, 2001.

"Then, exactly WHAT is his point?"

The point is that Duhbya is the Antichrist, and he has cast his spell of evil hypocrisy over most of the Christians and Repugs in Texas. If he is not stopped, these insane holier-than-thou lunatics will soon run rampant throughout our country, destroying our nation with their filthy hypocrisy.

-- (repugs @ are. disgusting), June 21, 2001.

Medicated woman with too many kids for her income level - sounds like an AlGore vote for sure.

-- libs are idiots (moreinterpretation@ugly.com), June 21, 2001.

Post Partum Depression is a recognized medical condition that has nothing to do with politics or religion. Most people with average intelligence know this. Sorry for your handicap.

-- (Paracelsus@Pb.Au), June 21, 2001.

I wonder if this woman was breastfeeding. The report said she had been on medication for depression since the birth of her fourth child, but her fifth one was born just six months ago. Now knowing that many drugs, including a lot of drugs used to treat depression, can't be taken during pregnancy or breast feeding, I wonder if this woman was really on her medication.

In other words, was her depression currently under treatment, or had she forgone drugs for the last year or so, after becoming pregnant with her fifth child?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingignthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 21, 2001.

Parasleazyus,

You sound like a whining liberal. You should listen to Rush. He thinks the depression thing is a load of crap, this lady just got fed up with all her pain in the ass kids. Shouldn't have had them in the first place if she couldn't handle it, that's what Rush says.

-- (Rush@knows.all), June 21, 2001.

I just heard Rush say he thinks she is a liberal, but that's typical for Rush. Anyone who does something he doesn't like he will call a liberal.

I'd have to agree with the original poster. Most of these hardcore Christians that live in Texas and don't use birth control are usually Repugliscums.

When the stress starts to get to them, they get drunk and do crazy shit. Then they try to plead insanity because of so-called "depression", which basically means she couldn't cut the mustard.

-- (Texas is out of control @ thanks. to our Alcoholic-In-Chief), June 21, 2001.

The Yates have been married since 1993, had 5 children, the oldest was 7. This woman has basically stayed pregnant for the entire 8+ years of their marriage. Hmmmmmmmm.

-- Just (the@very.thought), June 21, 2001.

"In fact, the United States is the only Western country to incarcerate postpartum psychotic mothers who have killed their infants. These mothers are charged with homicide and incarcerated without treatment. In other countries, such as England and Italy,a woman is considered vulnerable because of childbirth with preference for psychiatric treatment."

I'm sure Dumbya will show his "compassion" and make an exception in this case. Since she is from Texas and has saved by the Lord like him, he will let her off the hook.

He can certainly relate to someone who can't control her childrens!!

-- hee hee hee (dumbya will @ let. her off), June 21, 2001.

Those poor children are dead, beyond any physical assistance from the real world.

The mother will now travel a road that none would wish for.

What about the Father?

His life will now be twisted into a living hell and I have yet to see one word of sympathy for him.

Bidness as usual.

-- Telinet (like@it.is), June 21, 2001.

I get the impression that the mother didn't really want to have so many kids. Her husband is probably the dominant type that forced her into it. Shouldn't have pushed her so hard.

-- (he is @ responsible. too), June 21, 2001.

Jeeez J, you're even more messed up than I thought you were. Crying at the mere mention of death? I bet you cry when you miss your free throws too, isn't that right? You're an emotional basket case.

You need to surround yourself with some stable peers, like Shaq for example. He doesn't cry when he misses his free throws. Unfortunately, you pissed him off with your stupid mouth and I doubt he would want to be your friend.

-- cyber freud (get help J @ you. are unstable), June 21, 2001.

J can't bring himself to even think twice about the children who died in Oklahoma City, but he cries himself to sleep about the children who died in Texas. What a hypocrite.

-- (crocodile@tears.wah), June 21, 2001.

cyber fraud,

Drop dead, you cold hearted little piss ant.

Ditto to you, anonymous coward.

Unlike the calloused, uncaring bastards on this thread, I actually have compassion. That any of you worthless scum would take this tragedy and try to use it to bash Bush, Christians, and anyone else who doesn't think like you speaks volumes about exactly how sick you disgusting vermin are. You all make me nauseous.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 21, 2001.

I'm anything but cold-hearted. For instance, I would never dream of referring to dead children as "collateral damage".

But if I'm making you nauseus, I must be doing something right. You are one individual I hope to never agree with.

-- (crocodile@tears.wah), June 21, 2001.

anonymous coward,

I'm not surprised that your tiny brain can't differentiate between the heartless conduct exhibited here, and the mere usage, with no malice intended, of the U.S. military's term for unintended civilian casualties. A usage, I might add, that I later apologized for having made, as it wasn't a sensitive thing to have said.

I highly doubt that you or any of the other cold-hearted vermin will apologize for the intentional, extremely insensitive words that have been posted on this thread.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 21, 2001.

Then is he saying that it's better to kill your kids before they're born so that you don't have to bother with it afterwards?

No, he's saying that if this dumb bitch would have aborted a few of her fucking fetuses then maybe she wouldn't have wigged out.

Got that shit-for-brains?

-- Clara Fire (just@helping.out), June 21, 2001.

Tarzan to address your thoughts...prozac-like drugs have a bad history of being involved in cases like these. Bad bad stuff and though they might help some, most definitely not worth the risk.

Telinet...my heart aches for the father of those little ones. Yes, it does. And for the mother too. Yes.

So so sad.

-- (cin@cin.cin), June 21, 2001.

Cin-

Prozac-like drugs aren't used when women are pregnant and/or nursing. I think that this woman was sick for a long time and was likely without treatment if she breastfed.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 21, 2001.

"No, he's saying that if this dumb bitch would have aborted a few of her fucking fetuses then maybe she wouldn't have wigged out."

It isn't even necessary to be that drastic. Condoms or birth control pills work just fine for most educated people. But Duhbya's redneck fan club down there in Texas?... well, that's a different story.

-- (morons breed @ like. rabbits), June 21, 2001.

"Filicide "

-- (Paracelsus@Pb.Au), June 22, 2001.

Aha! Andea Yates was a home-schooler

-- (Paracelsus@Pb.Au), June 22, 2001.

Post Partum psychosis

-- (Paracelsus@Pb.Au), June 22, 2001.

Paracelsus,

What the hell was the home-schooler crack supposed to mean?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 22, 2001.

Sarcasm. She home-schooled her kids. That is nearly as suspect as Christianity.

-- (Paracelsus@Pb.Au), June 22, 2001.

J (Y2Jacking off @ home.comm),

It means that these rednecks who try to school their kids at home are fuckin nuts. They end up with dimwitted retards like Duhbya running around the house driving them crazy.

The only thing the kids actually learn is how to use guns, which won't help them get a job. The parents would rather sacrifice them to Jesus than teach them how to make an honest living.

They will get a lawyer and sue the piss out of pharmaceutical companies, claiming it "wasn't her" who did it. Since this is basically the same philosophy Duhbya uses to explain his "pre-saved" behavior, he will let her off without any punishment, and richer than she could ever be if she had gotten a job.

-- (repugs are @ crooked. bastards), June 22, 2001.

Hey moron, YOU should sue the drug companies. Should be a slam dunk!

-- Watta (dum@phuc.com), June 22, 2001.

Paracelsus,

I had always pegged you as one of the decent forum participants, and your post had me questioning that, as I didn't discern the sarcasm.

crooked.bastard,

Your grammar and syntax make it painfully obvious that no loving parents home-schooled you. You are clearly a product of the public indoctrination system.

Barely literate, you were tossed into society to sink or swim. Based on the dismal quality of your writing, a fair guess would be that you are currently treading water at a McDonald's not far from the same public schools which failed you so miserably.

Of course, that is the optimistic view. There is also a high probability that you are unemployed, and that if you haven't already been incarcerated, that you will be at some point during your life.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 22, 2001.

Tarzan,

I would venture to guess that Mrs. Yates did not breastfeed (or at leat breastfeed very much). In most women (although there are exceptions) breastfeeding and especially extended breastfeeding dramatically increases the time before a woman can concieve again. Mrs. Yates children were born very close to each other timewise.

Also, there are many anti-depressants that may be taken while breastfeeding.

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), June 22, 2001.

The Aftermath Of Prozac, Zoloft, Luvox, Fen-Phen, & Many Other Serotonergic Drugs

-- (cin@cin.cin), June 22, 2001.

{snipped from above link}

"""Some of the cases you may be familiar with are: Mr. and Mrs. Phil Hartman (Zoloft), Prozac was found in the van of Mark Barton, the Atlanta day trader, who recently killed his family and others in a shooting spree before taking his own life; Neal Furrow, in LA Jewish school shooting was reported to have been court ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications; the Salt Lake Family History Library shooting, school shootings in Littleton, Colorado (Luvox), Atlanta, Georgia, Springfield, Oregon (Prozac), and Caldwell, Idaho; another boy in Pocatello, ID in 1998 who in seizure activity from Zoloft had a stand off at the school; 15 year old Chris Shanahan (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman; the shooting at the lottery in Connecticut last spring by Matthew Beck (Luvox) that left five dead in a murder/suicide; the New York City Subway bombing by Edward Leary (Prozac); little 10 year old Timmy (Prozac) in southern Florida; Nick Mansies (Paxil) in New Jersey who was convicted of killing a little boy who was selling cookies door to door; in Orange County, CA Dana Sue Gray (Paxil) who co-workers described as a very caring nurse killed several elderly people; Officer Stephen Christian (Prozac) one of the finest officers on the Dallas Police force, who ran into a police substation shooting at fellow officers and was killed; 13 year old Chris Fetters (Prozac) in Iowa who killed her favorite aunt; David Rothman (Prozac) killed two co-workers and himself at the Dept. of Agriculture in Ingelwood, CA; Williams Evans (Zoloft) shot one co-worker at the Ohio Bureau of Employment Services before shooting himself in Columbus, OH; Winatchee, WA where 43 people were wrongfully imprisoned in a false accusation of sexual abuse "witch hunt" fury started by a child under the influence of Prozac and Paxil; Christopher Vasquez (Zoloft) killed Michael McMorrow in Central Park; Megan Hogg (Prozac) duct taped the mouths and noses of her three little girls and took a handful of pills; Vera Espinoza (Prozac) in Randolph, VT shot her small son and daughter before shooting herself; an elderly man (Prozac) in Layton, UT axed his wife and daughter to death; Margaret Kastanis (Prozac) used a knife and hammer to kill her three children before stabbing herself to death; an elderly man (Paxil) in Dallas, TX strangled his wife before shooting himself twice in the chest; Larramie Huntzinger (Zoloft) blacked out and ran his car into three young girls killing two in Salt Lake City, UT; Mary Hinkelman (Prozac), a nurse in Baroda, MI shot her two small daughters and her sister before shooting herself; Lisa Fox (Prozac) shot her small son and her dog before shooting herself in Brighton, MI; Debi Louselle (Zoloft) shot daughter and then herself in Salt Lake City, UT; a father in Wyoming shot his wife, daughter and baby grand-daughter then himself after only days on Paxil; a mother (Prozac) in Pleasant Grove, UT killed her 17 year old son with a sledge hammer while he slept before she attempted suicide by drinking draino; Larry Butzz, a superintendent of schools in Ames, IA shot his wife, son and daughter before shooting himself - many cases pending in court are not mentioned. This is only a handful of MANY, MANY more cases - there would not be room for anything else if I continued listing the cases. A few additional famous victims: Princess Di (Prozac) and Dodi Fayed - via their driver Henri Paul (Prozac), Monica Lewinsky (Prozac, Zoloft, Effexor, Serzone and Phen-Fen), Chris Farley (Prozac), Pres. Clinton's ex-partner Jim Mc Dougal (Prozac), Abby Hoffman (Prozac), Del Shannon (Prozac), Danielle Steele's son (Prozac), INXS singer Michael Hutchence (Prozac), Sarah - Dutchess of York (Phen-Fen)"""

Coincidence? I think not!

-- (cin@cin.cin), June 22, 2001.

I would venture to guess that Mrs. Yates did not breastfeed (or at leat breastfeed very much). In most women (although there are exceptions) breastfeeding and especially extended breastfeeding dramatically increases the time before a woman can concieve again. Mrs. Yates children were born very close to each other timewise.

I think this is an old wives' tale, Pibb. If not, I only know the exceptions. I'm, by far, not the only woman who has breastfed two children at the same time because the first wasn't weaned yet before the second was born. I KNEW that breastfeeding wasn't an effective birth-control method. Heh. I just never thought I'd get pregnant again on the very first try.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), June 22, 2001.

Notice how the libs all rushed to find excuses for this woman's homicides.

Frigging left-wing idiots called it depression. Bullshit, she had to methodically attack these small children, and had to chase down the last one. It was pure unadulterated evil rage. And the asshole that insults anyone from Texas has his anus where his brain is. I don't give a shit what her political bent is, she should be drowned slowly - but it's the left-wing in this country that defend these sacks of crap, along with cop-killers, rapists, and child molestors.

-- libs are idiots (moreinterpretation@ugly.com), June 22, 2001.

Notice how the libs all rushed to find excuses for this woman's homicides.

Wait just a minute, Bud. *I* didn't offer any excuses for this woman's homicides. I'm actually surprised that she could pull this off. I can't IMAGINE any of my kids willing to get into a tub after seeing what happened to the younger kids that went first. What I COULD imagine is my 5 or 7-year old running out the front door screaming to the neighbors that his/her mom had gone off her rocker.

I ALSO don't agree with Cin's thread on anti-depressants being the CAUSE of this tragedy. It seems to me that anti-depressants are one treatment of depression, but maybe the doses weren't right. SOME folks get mildly depressed, and doctors ALWAYS prescribe the lowest dosage of ANYTHING and count on feedback to see if that worked. The folks who are "way out there" aren't going to get back to their doctor and suggest that the drug isn't working. They may even be "so far gone" that they refuse to take the drugs as prescribed.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), June 22, 2001.

If I were philosopher-King, this woman would be committed for temporary insanity. She would be released after 5 years of pychiatric treatment but only if she agrees to a tubal ligation. She must never again have children. Her punishment will be self-inflicted for the rest of her life. I predict she will eventiually commit suicide.

I don't know what combination of female body chemistry and pharmaceuti cals directed her behavior but IMO this is not murder in the same sense as McVeigh (for whom I favored the death penalty). I don't excuse her action but I do think she flipped out. What is more unnatural than for a mother to murder her own children?

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), June 22, 2001.

I believe that these tragic incidents all have their own personality and should not be put in a box. Truth be known, this Yates woman was a walking time bomb and upon reflection the signs of her mental decline will be identified and discussed endlessly.

I have this terrible picture in my mind of her frantically chasing that 7-year-old son through the house, he being aware of his certain fate. Sends shivers down my spine.

-- So (cr@t.es), June 22, 2001.

@ugly.com,

I believe it was the rightwing asshole Parasleazyus who immediately rushed to this psycho lady's defense, claiming it wasn't her fault because she was suffering from depression or the drugs made her do it. Just another example of how you Repugliscums are nothing but hypocritical bastards, crying when it concerns one of your own but always blaming it on liberals.

-- conservatives are worthless shits (moreinterpretation@ugly.com), June 22, 2001.

This lady is a classic example of an unresolved Electra complex, as defined by my brilliant Great Grandfather Sigmund...

"Electra complex , according to Freudian theory, refers to a young girl's possessive love for her father. Due to the fear of punishment, the entire conflict is repressed into the unconscious during the phallic stage of psychosexual development. This dilemma is then successfully resolved through identification with the mother, from whom the young girl learns much of her value system. Through this learning of moral values, the superego is developed. The analogous male version is the Oedipus complex."

In fact, this is such a superb example of Electra that we psychoanalysts will refer to this as our textbook case for future reference.

This lady has an unresolved intense subconscious desire, an obsession you might say, for the love of her father. She married the classic good-looking, kind, gentle, strong, nice guy, in hope that this would make her father jealous and bring him closer to her. When this did not work, she imagined in a sort of delusory fashion that she might be able to re-create her father through the birth of her own children, or at least get more of his attention.

After the birth of each child, she eventually realized that she had not re-created her father, and had apparently failed to gain any more of his love and attention that she so intensely desired. She would fall into depression during these periods, and realizing that each new child was not bringing her the love of her father, subconsciously began to view them as nothing more than a useless burden.

She went into a more severe depression when the daughter was born, realizing that there was no way a girl could grow up to be like her father. Finally, her father died. Now she had absolutely no hope of getting the love from him that she wanted so desperately to possess.

This pushed her over the edge. Everything she had lived and labored for was now gone. The last straw. The husband and children had meant nothing to her other than a means to an end, and now that end was gone. On a subconscious level she actually hated the children for making her work so hard, after they had failed to bring her the object of her desire, her father. She realized it was all a lost cause.

Once she had accepted this reality, she had to kill the children because they were nothing but a burden and no longer served any useful purpose. She would have killed her husband as well if not for his physical size, of which she could not hope to defeat. That is in fact evidence that she was completely rational at the time. The main problem was that she was being motivated by an intense subconscious obsession which had developed during her childhood, and had never been resolved.

-- cyber freud (repressed subconscious obsession @ case. closed), June 22, 2001.

Anita,

There are of course exceptions, but it is not an old wives'-tale (breastfeeding slowing down women's fertility). I am glad to hear that you breastfed your daughters (my wife is a militant La Leche Leauger).

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), June 22, 2001.

Please help! I need someone to suck my tits so I won't kill my babies!

-- (Get@real.cof), June 22, 2001.

"conservatives are worthless shits",

Return home immediately. Your village is missing its idiot.

-- (Paracelsus@Pb.Au), June 22, 2001.

Rumor has it that he is one of the Village People.

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), June 22, 2001.

No offense intended, Pibbs, but I would counsel my daughters [and my son for his wife] to steer clear of LaLeche folks. I would ALSO counsel them to use external methods of birth control if they don't want to get pregnant again while nursing.

You can call me a prude if you want, but I did NOT enjoy the one LaLeche meeting I attended. I nursed my kids EVERYWHERE, but I always threw a light cloth over my shoulder so folks around me wouldn't know immediately what was happening. At the one LaLeche meeting I attended, a few women responded to the demands of their three-year olds by baring their breasts to all and [sitting upright] laid these toddlers on their laps to nurse. IMO, they were fanatics. My second child nursed until she was beyond 2 years of age, and I REALLY needed to wean her because her younger brother was already nine months old, and *I* just couldn't intake enough calories to keep feeding them both. She'll be 20 years old this year, and she doesn't at all resent being weaned before she may have been ready.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), June 22, 2001.

Anita,

No offense taken. I would imagine that different chapters of the LLL are quite radically different.

Nursing a child until age 2 is very benificial. My son weaned himself a few months ago (shortly after turning two).

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), June 22, 2001.

cyber freud, your great grandfather also believed that women desired to have children (especially males) and a result of their penis envy.

Anita, it isn't an old wives tale about breastfeeding and the reduction of women's cycles. Of course, all women are different and some women's bodies don't conform to the "average". I agree about LLL. I say to each his own. It's nice when women can breastfeed but not all can and they shouldn't be made to feel inferior because of it.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), June 23, 2001.

Breast feeding--another example of trendiness in science and attitudes. When I was born, the "modern" view was to use scientific formulations, not mother's milk. Breast feeding was considered old-fashioned and connoted peasantry.

The "modern" view of that day was also to keep mamas in hospitals for two weeks after delivery. No more of this squatting-in-the-field to deliver and then back to work. Of course these modernities were promoted by the medical industry, the baby formula industry, the University research industry, etc.

So what scientific "truths" of today will look quaint and ignorant in 50 years only to be re-discovered 50 years after that?

No, I am not anti-scientific and am not cynical about research and product innovation. But it must be remembered that money, ego, power, religion, ideology and fashion determine much that we accept as "true".

Diogenes?

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), June 23, 2001.

Two quotes, both from the original news story:

"...the woman called police to her home..."

"...She said to the officer, 'I killed my children,'..."

These two facts say a lot to me.

It is not unheard of for a mother to kill her own child. The most common event is frustration leading to uncontrolled anger, leading to a rash act like shaking an infant to death or dealing a blow - or even multiple blows - until the anger is spent. This always seems to be directed at one victim.

It is not unheard of for a mother to kill all her children. The most common profile for this crime is that the mother is (to some degree) sociopathic - she has no real feelings toward her children - and their mere existance is irksome because they prevent her from accomplishing some personal goal. Such a mother kills her children in cold blood, planning it in advance. These cases always end up with the mother covering up her crime in some way, because being put in prison would prevent her from reaching her personal goal, too.

This case doesn't fit either of those two profiles. It definitely sounds like a woman who crossed over the line from depression into psychosis. She needs to be taken out of society and treated for mental illness.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), June 23, 2001.

The so-called "Post-Partum" depression phenomena is nothing but a label for something which is not understood. How can it be that a mother chooses to kill her children merely because of an imbalance of chemicals produced during a perfectly natural pregnancy? If these chemicals were indeed causing her to become psychotic, why is it alwyas the children who are the victims? Why do they never kill the mailman, a neighbor, or someone else who pisses them off?

The answer of course, is because this is not at all what is happening, and it cannot be treated using medications. When this woman began to suffer from depression, she should have been referred to a psychoanalyst, who would have discovered her unresolved subconscious psychological disorder. This could have been resolved with psychotherapy.

Instead, she was given pills, and the repressed disorder only grew stronger over the years. Within 3 months after her father's death, she finally accepted the fact that there was no possible way her subconscious desires could be met. She lashed out in frustration to snuff out anything which reminded her that all of her labors had been fruitless, and her subconscious dreams could never be realized.

She was not insane, and was not motivated to kill because of medications. She had a deep intense psycholgical disorder which had been growing in her since adolescence. This was most likely because of the way her parents had treated her during childhood. Perhaps her father was completely unaffectionate, or she had a sister who got all the attention from him while she was rejected. The history of her childhood will need to be studied to be sure.

In any case, her depression was not understood, so she was not given the proper treatment. In these cases, medications do not resolve the problem, they only temporarily conceal it.

-- cyber freud (pills are not @ the. answer), June 23, 2001.

cyberfreud, that is the lamest thing I've ever heard. It would seem that YOU are the one who needs some serious psycho-analysis. Yep

-- (me@me.me), June 23, 2001.

Believe what you will, my imbecilic friend. But unless you consider the killing of 5 children an effective outcome in this case, the treatment obviously didn't work.

-- cyber freud (trolls are idiots @ i. rest my case), June 23, 2001.

Cyber Freud or cyber-fraud?

I can't tell if you are serious or stretching for ironic humor.

I have no professional expertise in either medicine or psychotherapy but it's increasingly clear that many pathological behaviors are due to biochemistry, not to mommy and daddy complexes.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), June 23, 2001.

"I have no professional expertise in either medicine or psychotherapy"

Well, that's obvious, but why do you pretend to know something about this case that no one else seems to know?

"but it's increasingly clear that many pathological behaviors are due to biochemistry, not to mommy and daddy complexes."

Really?? Please enlighten us. I anxiously await your explanation of how and why this tragedy occurred.

-- cyber freud (why did this lady @ kill. her children?), June 23, 2001.

Schizophrenia and bipolar to name the two most obvious.

BTW, care to give us your CV?

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), June 23, 2001.

"Schizophrenia and bipolar to name the two most obvious."

Bwaaahahahaaha!! With absolutely no prior diagnosis of either of these conditions, they just came to the surface last week, resulting in a mass homicide? LOL, good one! Yes, as you said earlier, it's clear that you have no idea what you are talking about.

"BTW, care to give us your CV?"

I never claimed to be a professional, and do not pretend to be. I am a student of psychology, particularly of my Great Grandfather's work. People these days want to dismiss all behavior as being a result of bad chemicals, but that makes my Great Grandfather's work no less valid. The truth usually goes much deeper than what is observed on the surface.

-- cyber freud (do your homework @ then. come back), June 23, 2001.

Lars,

You said, "I have no professional expertise in either medicine or psychotherapy..."

Not to worry, cyber fraud doesn't either.

cyber fraud, you are such a putz. Lars gave you two examples to back up his claim that, "many pathological behaviors are due to biochemistry, not to mommy and daddy complexes". He did not say that those examples were the cause of this tragedy, only that they were due to biochemistry.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 23, 2001.

J--

Thanks for your remarks. I used to find CF amusing as I thought he was pimping some of the more obnoxious forumnistas. Now he seems to be taking himself seriously.

I know he is not a professional. Professional psychotherapists do not diagnose over the Internet based on news links.

Are we next?

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), June 23, 2001.

J (Y2Jacking off @ home.comm),

Oh excuse me, I thought we were discussing the subject of this thread, dimwit. Sounds like you're still a little peeved about my earlier criticisms of your infantile behavior on this forum. LOL! Why don't you go have a good cry and take a little nappy, child, then you might feel better.

I do not dispute the possibility that the SYMPTOMS of bipolar and schizophrenic behavior are at least partially produced by chemical imbalances. Any retard like yourself can see such an obvious correlation, but the bigger question, of which someone of your meager intellect is incapable of answering, is... what causes the chemical imblances?

There is some evidence that heredity is a factor, particularly in schizophrenia, but the underlying psychological makeup also comes into play, which IS influenced by external factors during the developmental childhood years.

-- cyber freud (J-boy @ is. a retard), June 23, 2001.

Well CF, I’m a student of the state Lottery and like yourself………I don’t know jack!

-- Head (not@be.right), June 23, 2001.

Lars,

I'm still waiting for your explanation of this tragedy. Whether or not it is related to your earlier statements about biochemistry does not matter to me. If you consider my hypothesis to be fraudulent or a joke, I am interested in hearing your alternative explanation.

-- cyber freud (let's hear it @ mr. know-it-all), June 23, 2001.

Well, I guess it's true what they say... "Any fool can criticize, and most fools will".

Lars and J-boy are good at this, but when it comes to thinking for themselves, well... they appear to be nothing more than a couple of deafmute imbeciles!

ROTFL!!

-- cyber freud (this much @ is. clear), June 23, 2001.

CF--

I never claimed to have "an explanation for this tragedy". You are the one who advanced the Electra complex theory. My response was a reaction to your hostility to medical explanations.

Chances are this travesty will never be explained. In my admitted unprofessional opinion it's likely a perverse combination of environmental influences, genetic factors (manifested biochemically and exacerbated by medication inappropriate for her) and plain old-fashioned craziness.

You are right, "any fool can criticize". You forget that any fool can hypothesize as well.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), June 23, 2001.

cyber freud= No Spam Please

-- (just@n.observation), June 23, 2001.

Cyber therapy

-- (Paracelsus@Pb.Au), June 23, 2001.

"You are the one who advanced the Electra complex theory. My response was a reaction to your hostility to medical explanations."

That's right, I proposed the Electra complex, and you responded by calling me a fraud and suggesting that I was perpetrating some kind of joke. I am not hostile toward "medical" explanations, only to your own hostility toward my explanation.

You seemed to be scoffing at the idea of a deep-rooted psychological disorder and suggesting that it was more likely a chemical problem. But since you were unable to explain how that would occur, or is any more valid than my thoughts, you now seem to be wimping out in general.

You're beginning to sound like the liberals that you so often criticize, saying that this lady is somehow not responsible for her own behavior. Let me clue you in on something. No matter what kinds of chemicals are running around in someone's head, they do not MOTIVATE someone to kill. Chemicals do not have intelligence. They can make someone insane, paranoid, hallucinatory, and psychotic, but they cannot TELL someone to kill. Anything other than completely insane behavior is MOTIVATED, and unless this woman had a microchip implanted in her head, those motivations came from within her own psyche.

What I proposed is a theory, I never said it was fact. Is there a law against doing that, without having to be insulted by someone who offers nothing more plausible? Whether or not you consider it credible is your choice, but try not to be an asshole. I will say one thing that I think will be proven with 99% certainty... when the case history is studied, it will be revealed that this woman had a very "abnormal" childhood.

-- cyber freud (the subconscious @ is a VERY. strange place), June 23, 2001.

Hey Parasleasyus, since when was I offering therapy, dumbshit?

Do you even know the difference between theory and therapy?

-- cyber freud (i @ doubt. it), June 23, 2001.

cyber fraud,

It sounds like you have some unresolved issues when it comes to being able to deal with your emotions. Was your father a coldhearted bastard, and now you are trying to please him by being one, too?

Whatever the cause, your errant belief that a man is weak or childish because he can shed tears when thinking of what those poor children must have thought as they struggled for their lives, especially because it was at the hands of their own mother, tells me that you are one twisted person.

You shouldn't be worrying about the diagnoses of others, you should be worrying about the diagnosis of yourself.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 23, 2001.

True, you were not offering therapy. You were diagnosing a person you have never met while identifying yourself as "we psychoanalysts"---

"In fact, this is such a superb example of Electra that we psychoanalysts will refer to this as our textbook case for future reference"

I will eagerly watch Court TV for your testimony as an expert witness. LOL.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), June 23, 2001.

Ya gotta admit J, crying about a news report is a bit overdramatic. Feeling sympathy for them is one thing, but to literally break into tears it sounds like you are really losing your grip.

-- (Dennis Olson's @ Guardian. Angel), June 24, 2001.

Whatever, Lars. I was not attempting to create some kind of fraud with my theory, but you are welcome to mock others if that's what helps you get your rocks off.

Unless you can explain to me how this biochemical reaction you speak of can motivate someone to kill, I'll have to assume that your suggestion is at least as far-fetched as mine.

J-boy, you're whining again. Isn't it past your bedtime, little boy?

LOL!

-- cyber freud (to each @ his. own), June 24, 2001.

Unless you can explain to me how this biochemical reaction you speak of can motivate someone to kill, I'll have to assume that your suggestion is at least as far-fetched as mine.

Sounds OK.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), June 24, 2001.

Uh oh, cyber fraud's flippant response leads me to believe that I am on to something. What's the matter, fraud, was nothing that you ever did good enough for your coldhearted bastard of a father? Is that why you pretend to be a psychoanalyst, so that you can prove to him that you are worthwhile?

And what's this delusional bit about being the great grandson of Freud? Are you so messed up in the head that pretending to be a psychoanalyst isn't delusional enough, you also have to pretend to be related to Freud? LOL!

You are truly warped. Quit pretending to be a psychoanalyst, and get yourself an appointment with one.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 24, 2001.

My father is dead you asshole, and if you call him a coldhearted bastard again I will hunt you down and kill you.

If you are stupid enough to believe I am the Great Grandson of Sigmund Freud, that's your problem, dumbshit. Most intelligent people realize it is just an online persona used to make conversations more entertaining.

-- cyber freud (kiss my ass @ J-boy. you asshole), June 24, 2001.

“My father is dead you asshole, and if you call him a coldhearted bastard again I will hunt you down and kill you.”

More meds please.

-- Cyber Fraud (have@head.problems), June 24, 2001.

cyber fraud,

You are threatening to kill me? Who's whining now?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Based on your inability to deal with your emotions, I would say that your father was the type who couldn't deal with his emotions either, a coldhearted bastard, if you will. Nothing personal mind you, but just my "diagnosis".

Now come hunt me down and kill me, you little piss ant.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 24, 2001.

I have a theory as to why Andrea Yates killed her five children. Granted I have no experience or education in this area, but my theory sounds plausible to me.

According to every news story I've read, those who know Mrs. Yates said that she was an a loving and devoted mother. This includes her husband and her mother-in-law.

She has also been suffering from a terrible depression for a long time. She told police that she had thought about killing her children for months, because she believed she was a bad mother, and her children were disbled because of her.

I believe that her irrational thoughts of killing her children were harder for the rational part of her brain to fight off because of her lingering depression. But, the rational part of her brain WAS able to overcome these thoughts though and she never acted upon her irrational thoughts.

According to one source, Mrs. Yates started taking a new medication the day before she killed her children. I do not believe this medication turned her into a cold blooded killer, but rather disabled the rational part of her brain to communicate with the irrational part. Therefore she was overwhelmed with the irrational thoughts, and in her confused state thought that killing her children was the best thing to do.

If I am right, this is a much more terrible tragedgy than an unemotional cold blooded killer killing her five children. This would be a loving and devoted mother who killed her five children. I can't imagine the hell she has had to go through once the medication wore off and the rational side was once again able to communicate to the rest of her.

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), June 24, 2001.

Do we have any L.Ron Hubbard fans on this forum? I would be interested in their take on this Yates tragedy. How many of you are aware of the primary objectives of the Church Of Scientology? They have been fighting the ‘mind controllers’ forever now and this situation is just the type of management by medication scenario they love to sink their teeth into.

Go see Alice...............

-- So (cr@t.es), June 24, 2001.

{Go ask Alice?}

-- flora (***@__._), June 24, 2001.

Newsweek/MSNBC report

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), June 24, 2001.

Stumpo the cop is a moron. He listens to the radio on the way to the station, and then tells her she is a celebrity? What a meathead.

-- (hahaha@real.funny), June 24, 2001.

How Can a Mother Kill Her Kids?

By ABCNEWS.com

Postpartum depression, a psychotic breakdown and violence in the home have been factors in cases of mothers killing their children. But who can really know what pushes a woman to such an act?

The nightmares stirring inside a mother's mind that would drive her to kill her children are beyond comprehension for most people.

But in some cases, psychologists say, extreme depression — possibly brought on after delivering a child — a psychotic breakdown and violence in the home have played a role when mothers have killed their children.

"This is a very rare type of crime," said Jeffrey Smalldon, a forensic psychologist from Columbus, Ohio, when asked to speculate on Andrea Yates' alleged confession that she had killed her five children in the family's Houston home. "There must have been many mental and emotional stress factors operating here."

Experts were careful not to draw any conclusions about the case, and noted that the crime was especially unusual because even when mothers do kill, they almost never kill all their children at one time.

Husband: Wife Had Postpartum Depression

Yates' husband, Russell Yates, told reporters today that his wife was a "kind, gentle person," but suffered from postpartum depression after the births of her last two children.

"What you saw yesterday, that wasn't her," he said, holding a framed photo of his wife and children in front of his chest.

On Wednesday, Andrea Yates, 36, called police to her home in Houston. There, they found the bodies of four boys, aged 2 years to 7 years old, and a 6-month-old girl. All had apparently been drowned, police said.

Mrs. Yates told the officers she had killed her children, police said. Police said she had been taking medication for postpartum depression, but that it remained unclear if her psychological condition may have contributed to the killings.

Russell Yates said his wife was taking two drugs for postpartum depression — efexor and remeron — but still showed symptoms of depression prior to the killings. He said after an earlier pregnancy, she had taken efexor, wellbutrin and haldol for postpartum depression.

Anti-Psychotic Medication

Dr. Kim Pearson, a psychiatry instructor at Harvard Medical School (news - web sites) and a doctor with the perinatal and reproductive psychiatry unit at Massachusetts General Hospital, said efexor, remeron and wellbutrin are anti-depressants. She added that haldol is an anti-psychotic medication used to treat symptoms such as hallucinations or delusional thinking.

"Certainly, that raises suspicion about whether she had a psychotic incident after the prior pregnancy," Pearson said.

She said 50 percent of women who have postpartum depression have a recurrence in subsequent pregnancies.

"If they've had true postpartum psychosis, than the risk is 75 to 80 percent that they'll have a recurrence," she added. "Certainly, if somebody is experiencing psychotic symptoms, it can lead them to psychotic behavior."

Mr. Yates said his wife had attempted suicide after the earlier pregnancy, but after being treated she had seemed to recover. After the most recent pregnancy, he said, she had seemed to recover to "65 percent" of her normal self and then "she plateaued."

‘A True Mental Break’

On ABCNEWS' Good Morning America today, ABCNEWS medical correspondent Dr. Nancy Snyderman said approximately 10 percent of mothers experience postpartum depression, and psychosis happens in about half of those cases.

It can be "so devastating the person feels like they're inside a bowl, [and] you can't even get up the sides," Snyderman said. "It's like pulling someone down, down, down, down, down — until they just don't feel like they can get out anymore. It's a true mental break."

Smalldon, the forensic psychologist, says there have been cases in which extremely depressed people may have difficulty separating their own identity from others'.

The sufferer believes murder is a way to deliver the victim to a better life than the current miserable life he or she is having, he said.

Such a person also may have been experiencing what is called "magical thinking," a mental state in which reality is distorted and the person believes an extreme act will relieve the pressure, he said.

"They come to believe that murder is the one thing to do to get out of the predicament," Smalldon said.

Domestic Violence Can Play a Role

A number of other factors have played roles in previous cases, though it is not clear what may have caused Wednesday's alleged killings.

Julie Blackman, a social psychologist who practices in New York City, said there is no simple answer as to why a mother might kill her children.

"There is no formula as to why a mother would kill her own children, especially so many," Blackman said, when asked to speculate on the deaths of the Yates children. "But there are risk factors."

Those factors have included violence in the home from an abusing husband, financial stress, multiple births in succession coupled with fathers not helping and psychotic breakdowns, Blackman said.

ABCNEWS' Michael S. James contributed to this report.

-- (cin@cin.cin), June 24, 2001.

Several things came to mind which may or may not be relevant to this particular incident:

1. In the book "It's All Arranged - 15 Hours in a Psychiatrist's Life," author A. H. Chapman, MD tells a tragic story of a woman who had experienced temporary mental disturbance after giving birth to each of her first two children. Her problem was much more severe after her second child was born than after her first, hence the mental health professional treating her, strongly advised against another pregancy.

As contraception conflicted with their religious beliefs, she and her husband sought guidance from their spiritual leader, to whom they explained the situation. He told them that they must refrain from using contraception, irrespective of the potential consequences of her conceiving.

She later became pregnant. Soon after giving birth to their third child, she had an episode that resulted in her killing all three children.

(For anyone interested in the Chapman book, I see that it's available at the Barnes & Noble web site, in the Out of Print section. I do not own a copy; the above is based on my recollection from having read it many years ago.)

2. The rate of clinically diagnosable cancer among schizophrenics is much less than among the population as a whole. This has been attributed to comparably high concentrations in schizophrenics' blood, of a substance that promotes the manufacture of tumor antibodies in the body.

3. Pregnant women also experience a comparably low rate of diagnosable cancer. Pregnancy brings about fast growing and rapidly dividing cells in the fetus, so it would make sense for there to be a natural mechanism for ensuring that this cell behavior does not spread to other parts of the body. I don't know whether that mechanism is believed to be the same as that found among schizophrenics.

-- David L (bumpkin@dnet.net), June 24, 2001.

Clarification: the Chapman book devotes just one chapter to the case I cited. I may have given the impression that the book covers it more comprehensively.

-- David L (bumpkin@dnet.net), June 24, 2001.

David L--

Interesting relationship between cancer and pregnancy. I hadn't heard that one before but can believe it.

Similarly, pregnancy frequently produces temporary remission in auto-immune diseases followed by exacerbation after birth.

BTW, auto-immune diseases are more common in women than men, sometimes dramatically so (ie, lupus). Obviously hormones matter.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), June 24, 2001.

I think she did it to revenge her husband.

Even in the immediate face of the death of his children, "Rusty" Yates told the cops that they probably wouldn't be able to find a clean glass in the house. How could he even be thinking that at the time? "How could you do this?" he yelled to his wife.

Then he held a strange press conference and tried to "take control of the situation."

As Andrea Yates' brother broodingly said, the truth will come out about Mr. Yates. So far the truth appears to be this was another conservative male who ruined the life of 6 people. He's a fundamentalist "thrifty" fitness freak who wouldn't let his wife work. And even after she suffered severe depression and psychosis, he continued to force her to have babies.

She was sick, had to school the kids, care for her father, and did he lift a hand to help?

No. Even he admitted there wasn't a clean glass in the house.

Why didn't he clean a glass?

Because that was Andrea's job.

Men who keep "their women" at home are abusive control freaks.

Killing the kids was a way for Andrea Yates to escape her fundamentalist fitness freak husband and get back at him at the same time.

-- Revenge to the GOP Husband (stay@home.mom), June 25, 2001.

Why didn't she just kill her hateful husband? Why take it out on the kids? You don't compute.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), June 25, 2001.

Because this way he has to live through the shame and humiliation of being the "good family man" exposed. She wanted to embarrass him. And she has.

He couldn't even lift a hand to help the psychotic wife he forced to stay home with the kids. She should have been in a hospital. But she had to teach the kids at home.

Meanwhile, he couldn't even lift a hand to clean a glass.

A miserable fundamentalist conservative bastard who kept his sick wife trapped in filthy surroundings is now exposed.

-- Dirty House, and Rusty Can't (Lift@hand.com), June 25, 2001.

Apparently this was an abusive relationship, the husband very dominant and abusive, the wife very submissive. He had likely destroyed her self-esteem entirely, expecting her to raise 5 kids while depressed, keep the house clean, and still bitching at her if she was not able to do it perfectly. The remark about not having a clean glass in the house suggests that he might have gone off on her the night before, making her feel completely worthless as a mother. It appears that his in-laws have decided to keep quiet about this until they see how she how she will be sentenced, hoping that the marriage can still be saved. But if she ends up getting a bad deal they will likely hold him responsible for emotional and psychological abuse.

-- (hubby been a bad boy @ very. bad boy), June 25, 2001.

Don't pursue a career in mathematics.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), June 25, 2001.

“It appears that his in-laws have decided to keep quiet about this until they see how she how she will be sentenced, hoping that the marriage can still be saved. But if she ends up getting a bad deal they will likely hold him responsible for emotional and psychological abuse.”

Hoping that the marriage can be saved?

Ends up getting a bad deal?

Is this a poor attempt at humor? There will be no ‘saving’ of this marriage and Mrs. Yates will be most fortunate to escape the death penalty. Oh, don’t get me wrong here…Mr. Yates will surely get raked over the coals but he did not drown those children in spite of whatever mental stress he may have caused.

-- Telinet (like@it.is), June 25, 2001.

Telinet,

You seem to be overlooking the fact that the conservative fundamentalists christians are pleading for this woman to get off on insanity, since she was one of them. They did not use birth control, their family plan was simply to "have as many kids as come along". They had lots of religious symbology around the house and went to church regularly, and they were successful at forcing their beliefs upon others. The husband was dominant and abusive, the wife submissive and subservient. Clearly they followed all of the traditional christian requirements, so it must have been the fault of the pharmaceutical companies who produced the satanic drugs which made her possessed by the devil. The marriage vows are not to be broken in sickness or health, even if drugs mad her crazy.

-- Jimmy Swaggart (you underestimate the @ power. of faith), June 25, 2001.

Hey Jimmy, been out to the desert lately?

-- Telinet (like@it.is), June 25, 2001.

Dirty, Rusty, Revenge, Jimmy Swaggart, and whatever handle you will choose next,

With all of the terrible things you have said so authoratatively regarding the Yates family - you must have known them pretty well. So what did you do to help them out?

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), June 25, 2001.

Oh, and one more thing. You are taking comments made by a man who had just found out that his wife had killed his five children and trying to make it sound like that those comments are indicative of his normal demeanor.

After reflecting upon his comments to Andrea, he was quoted as saying that he supported his wife. USA TODAY also reported him as saying "Andrea, if you are reading this, I love you." He is standing behind his wife. My question for you is what is wrong with a man loving his wife?

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), June 25, 2001.

Dr. Pibb,

I know not what you speak of. Perhaps you confused someone else's post with mine?

First of all, I did not post using any of those other "handles". Secondly, I said nothing "terrible" about this family. Why would I do such a thing? These people are Christians, and I love them much more than other people who don't worship Christ. They conducted themselves in very traditional Christian fashion, and The Lord is watching over them.

Only God knows what could have caused this woman to do such a thing, but it wasn't her. It must have been her medications, or the Post-Partum whatever, because Christians do not do evil things.

-- Jimmy Swaggart (all Christians @ will. be saved), June 25, 2001.

KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL, KILL!

-- (orgasm@death.mom), June 25, 2001.

Sorry Jimmy, I didn't realize that I was speaking to the real Reverend Swaggart. Since you are the real deal, I must say that it looks like you've been reading your Playboy's and Penthouses more than you have been reading your Bible. Otherwise you would have realized that Christians are capable of evil. Take King David for instance, He had a man killed because he wanted the man's wife.

As for your earlier comment about fundamentalist Christians wanting her to get off on the insanity defense - I can only speak for myself. Andrea Yates killed her five children and deserves some form of punishment. My question though is How do you punish a loving mother more than the living hell she will have to live for the rest of her life when she realizes that SHE killed HER five children in cold blood?

-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), June 25, 2001.

She need not be punished, only the company that made the Satanic drugs and the doctor who told her to take them. If she says her prayers, the Lord will forgive her.

-- Jimmy Swaggart (we must rid the world @ of. satanic drugs), June 26, 2001.

Dr Pibb, you are conversing with a troll.

-- (dumbass troll detector@WW.West), June 26, 2001.