Sixers stick it to the Lakers in LA's casa despite Phil Jackson's Diane J Squireish makeover

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Unk's Wild Wild West : One Thread

In one year I have come from being repulsed by Allen Iverson to being a total admirer. He is brilliant and fearless.

Likewise I am already weary of the glamour boy Lakers with their celebrity fans. Even if the Sixers don't win another game, the Lakers were humbled tonite.

But didn't Phil look cool in his feng shui "do"?

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), June 07, 2001

Answers

Lakers in 6...

-- Uncle Bob (unclb0b@aol.com), June 07, 2001.

Humbled? Hah!

They've been on vacation for the last week waiting for Philadelphia to sweat it out, and they still made them go into OT to win by the skin of their teeth.

Humbled is what will happen to Philly when the Lakers sweep the next 4. Disgraced is more like it.

-- (glamor boys will @ kick. some fag ass), June 07, 2001.


fag ass,

Yes, the Lakers were disgraced tonight by the Sixers.

By the way, was Shaq trying to make his free throws, or was he trying to break the backboard?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 07, 2001.

Ha, another Jackson is another chronic underachiever. Both him and dumbya are losers.

-- dumbya the loser (with@drunk.daughters), June 07, 2001.

Feng shui will rule!

-- (nemesis@awol.com), June 07, 2001.


So, I was having an off night on free throws. 44 points ain't too shabby.

-- Shaq (J is @ an. asshole), June 07, 2001.

My thoughts as well, Lars. Iverson is a warrior on the court. His maturation this year has been remarkable. He's learned to show respect for his coach and teammates, distributes the ball with more regularity and accuracy – (although he still hoists too many shots for my taste, I know how a shooter thinks – "I can make any shot from anywhere on the court" – been there, done that). His pain threshold is quite astounding, coupled with the even rarer ability to produce at a high level while injured. Let's hope his career isn't shortened too much by his fearless approach to mixing it up inside the paint.

I watched the entire first half perched on the edge of my seat. Ok, not really. I was rocking with the ebb and flow of the game in a very comfortable rocking chair. I thought Larry Brown was masterful in waiting to call that first timeout. The Lakers were pounding his team early on. My buddy demanded a timeout when it was 13-5. I suggested to him that Brown was waiting for the initial beginning of the game adrenaline rush his players were experiencing – magnified many times by this being Game 1 of the Finals – to subside. Very, very smart move.

One point I've made before: I am sickened by the whining "I WAS FOULED" which takes place on nearly every trip down the floor. Shut up and play the damn game! Yeah, I know. Whining to the refs is PART of the NBA game. How many times does a player get caught dogging an official while play continues on down at the other end? ARGHHH!!! Let the coaches bark at the refs.

Mutumbo played one hell of a first half. Tough defense and rebounding make me all tingly inside.

-- Rich (living_in_interesting_times@hotmail.com), June 07, 2001.


Shaq,

No, you weren't having an "off night" at the free throw line. Your foul shot performance last night was all too typical.

It doesn't matter how many points that you scored. It only matters whether or not your team won. They didn't.

Considering that the game was tied at the end of regulation, and that at that point you were something like nine of twenty from the foul line, one could argue that if your free throw shooting skills were merely poor, instead of horrendous, then the Lakers would have won the game.

There is no doubt in my mind that you possess the greatest physique for basketball of any NBA player in the league today, possibly even in the history of the game. If it were coupled with even a moderate desire to be a proficient free throw shooter, then you would most likely be the perennial MVP of the NBA, instead of the glaring liability that you sometimes (like last night) are.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 07, 2001.

There are five elements in feng shui: fire, earth, water, metal and wood. Phil's dominant elements are earth, which symbolizes nurturing, and water, which symbolizes meditation, love, intellect. The look we came up with for Phil allows those elements to work well together.

I will do a makeover for you like I did for Phil. $200 for basic; $400. for premium. Free latte!

-- (Diane_J_Squire@flakey.places), June 07, 2001.


Bouncing back

Lakers hold off Sixers 98-89 to even series

Posted: Friday June 08, 2001 9:19 PM Updated: Saturday June 09, 2001 1:33 AM

LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Shaquille O'Neal nearly had a quadruple-double, Kobe Bryant was back to being an offensive force, and the Los Angeles Lakers built a big enough lead to hold off the no-quit Philadelphia 76ers.

O'Neal had 28 points, 20 rebounds, nine assists and tied the NBA Finals record with eight blocked shots as the Lakers evened the series at one game apiece with a 98-89 victory Friday night.

Bryant had 31 points, eight rebounds and six assists -- as well as an earful of trash talk from Allen Iverson in the final seconds as the series grew more testy and confrontational.

"With Allen, he's doing whatever he can to inspire his team and fire them up," Bryant said. "But I really don't care. We're here, we're the world champions, and no matter how inspired your team may be, the championship has to come through the city of Los Angeles."

After O'Neal picked up his fifth foul with 6:38 remaining, Philadelphia used a 13-3 run to close within three points with 2:22 left.

O'Neal then got his ninth assist on a 3-pointer by Derek Fisher, and Bryant fed Robert Horry for a basket that gave the Lakers a 94-86 lead with 1:19 left. O'Neal's jump hook with 28 seconds remaining gave Los Angeles an eight-point lead that all but sealed the victory.

"Yeah, I think it was a must-win," O'Neal said. "Now we just have to go into their place and get one or two wins. We play well on the road. We're real focused on the road."

The series resumes Sunday night in Philadelphia, where Iverson will try to make a bigger contribution. He was held to 23 points, primarily because of Fisher's defense, and missed all four of his free-throw attempts.

"Did he play me well? You can't take anything away from Fish. He did a little of everything, but I can't remember the last time I went to the free-throw line just twice," Iverson said. "There's something fishy about that, but I'm not whining. Believe me."

O'Neal tied the Finals record for blocks held by Bill Walton, Hakeem Olajuwon and Patrick Ewing and seemed to be leading the Lakers to a romp before picking up his third, fourth and fifth fouls in the first 5 1/2 minutes of the fourth quarter.

The Lakers made only two baskets over the next five minutes, 3-pointers by Brian Shaw and Fisher that kept the 76ers from catching up.

Iverson left the game with 19 seconds left and spent the rest of the time yelling at the Lakers, who were again heavy favorites despite their loss in the opener.

"Tempers were on edge tonight, but that's the nature of the game," Sixers guard Raja Bell said.

Bryant bounced back from his 7-for-22 shooting performance in Game 1, going 11-for-23 from the field and 8-for-8 from the line. Fisher, who was scoreless in the opener, added 14.

Dikembe Mutombo had 16, Aaron McKie 14, Todd MacCulloch 13 and Eric Snow 12 for the 76ers, whose balanced scoring was a surprise.

The primary reason for it was their inability to get the ball to Iverson as much as they wanted because of Fisher's tight defense.

"I would hope he'll get a little more respect" from the officials, Philadelphia coach Larry Brown said. "If we would have made some free throws, maybe there would have been a little more heat on them late in the game."

Iverson missed his first four shots before hitting a fast-break reverse layup and then tossing a behind-the-back pass to Jumaine Jones for a 3-pointer and a 13-10 lead.

Mutombo and Tyrone Hill picked up their second fouls in the ninth minute of the first quarter and sat out until midway through the second. But the Sixers didn't let the Lakers take advantage and actually outscored them by seven points before the two starters returned with 6 1/2 minutes left before halftime.

O'Neal had 17 points and 13 rebounds, and Bryant had 16, giving Los Angeles a 49-47 halftime lead.

The Lakers played from ahead for most of the third quarter when O'Neal had five of his blocks, the last of which led to a fast-break layup by Bryant for a 72-65 lead. Fisher made consecutive steals, turning one of them into an impressive dunk over Iverson for a nine-point lead.

Fisher made a 3-pointer with 20 seconds left to give the Lakers a 10-point lead, 77-67.

Iverson finally attempted his first free throws with 10:31 left in the fourth quarter but missed both, and Bryant made a wide-open 3-pointer for an 82-70 lead with about nine minutes left.

The Lakers answered a 3-pointer by Iverson with an alley-oop dunk by O'Neal off a pass from Bryant, and their lead grew to 13 by the time O'Neal picked up his fifth foul with 6:38 left.

The 76ers went to the foul line seven times before O'Neal returned with 5:22 left, but Bell missed three of those attempts. McKie scored off a steal by Snow to make it 86-80 before Shaw gave the Lakers some breathing room by sinking a 3-pointer from the left corner with the Staples Center crowd falling almost completely silent as the ball was in the air.

The 76ers scored the next four points, but Iverson missed two more foul shots with 3:04 left and a chance to cut the deficit to three. O'Neal missed at the other end and Mutombo put in a short bank shot with 2:22 left to make it 89-86, but O'Neal earned his ninth assist on Fisher's 3-pointer, giving Los Angeles a six-point lead with 2:07 left.

"We really played a much better game tonight, offensively and defensively," Jackson said. "They presented us with a tough challenge [in Game 1], and I think it sapped something out of their energy tonight."

Notes: Lakers forward Rick Fox, who refused to cut his hair during this team's 19-game winning streak, trimmed about an inch. ... Brown used 11 of his available players by the fourth minute of the second quarter. ... O'Neal also drew a technical foul from referee Steve Javie between the third and fourth quarters.

-- Shaq (kiss my ass @ fag. boy J), June 09, 2001.



Shaq,

An excellent game, except for your dismal four for ten free throw shooting, of course. Your lack of free throw shooting prowess doesn't always affect the outcome of the game, but it does sometimes; take game one, for instance.

So far, your lack of skill at the foul line has only cost your team home court advantage. Only time will tell if it ends up costing your team the title.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 09, 2001.

J

Make em’ or not I still be cashin’ them big checks.

-- Shaq (king@of.LA), June 09, 2001.


All things considered, I'd rather be in Philadelphia

-- (WC_Fields@Mae_West's.boudoir), June 09, 2001.

J,

Please post your address, I've been looking for some wussass to put on my barbecue this weekend, then I'll use your dumb fucking head to practice my free throws.

-- Shaq (grillin up @ the chicken. shit), June 09, 2001.


Shaq,

Ah yes, embarrassed by the painful truth of your lack of skill when shooting free throws, you resort to threats of physical violence. You, a physical giant of a man, and me, a quite less freakish six foot, one inch. It would hardly be a fair contest.

Alas, the genius of men like Samuel Colt and John Browning have done much to alleviate such physical disparities. I would advise you to stick with hamburgers, as I would prove to be a most unpleasant barbeque guest.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 09, 2001.


Wilt Chamberlin couldn't make free throws, either. Plus, Wilt had, if anything, an even huger ego than Shaq (although Shaq is no slouch in that department to say the least). Both have won NBA titles, but not near as many as they believe they deserve in their own inflated view of their importance.

That said, I think you have to look at the whole package. Shaq gives you both rebounding and scoring and he is learning to pass better. He may not be the best player in the NBA, but he is in the top five. I'd be willing to build a team around him. He's got big enough shoulders to carry a championship team on. No doubt in my mind.

-- Miserable SOB (misery@misery.com), June 09, 2001.


2 to 1 Lakers

Kiss my black ass J

-- Shaq (shut up @ fag .boy), June 10, 2001.


Shaq @ fag.boy,

Excellent retort. It has such a primal air to it... but no wonder there.

You had an excellent game tonight from the free throw line, going eight for nine. Tonight's performance seems to throw water on those theories that your physical makeup somehow prevents you from being a good free throw shooter.

On the other hand, it adds to my position that if you had the desire and the work ethic, you could become a good free throw shooter.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 11, 2001.

I make 20 zillion times as much money as you smartmouth. You don't even have the right to talk about a work ethic, you measly pissant.

-- Shaq (kiss my ass @ J. you fag), June 11, 2001.

Shaq you fag,

No, you don't "make 20 zillion times as much money" as me. Is that what your agent told you, that you make "zillions"?

Actually, I have the right to talk about almost anything, as this is the great United States of America. It is the same great country that allows for a free market where men can play a game and be paid millions (no z) of dollars, even when they don't have enough respect for the game to make themselves at least decent free throw shooters.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 11, 2001.

J (Y2J@jacking off at home.comm),

"even when they don't have enough respect for the game to make themselves at least decent free throw shooters."

And what are you, except a decent asshole?

-- (J likes @ Tim. McVeigh), June 11, 2001.


Lakers in Five. The Sixers don't even belong in the NBA, let alone the Finals. LA let the pathetic boy-men win the first game in order to stretch the series, thereby allowing more advertising revenue to be generated. They are artificially keeping the games close in order to avoid the 76ers from throwing temper tantrums at the end of the games.

-- sarl (coach@sarl.george), June 11, 2001.

J (Y2J@jacking off at home.comm),

3 games to 1 Lakers

Don't worry though... in the true spirit of liberal compassion (I feel your pain!), unlike you phoney "compassionate conservatives", we will put your fag boy 6'ers out of their misery. Rather than prolong their pain, we will end it quickly in game 5.

I think you know what you are supposed to do at this stage, but just in case you forgot... KISS MY ASS!! That's right, get on your knees and... oh, wait a minute, that's right!... you don't need to get on your knees, since your lips are the same height as my big black ass! Just pucker up, and gimme a smack on my crack, wussy boy! ROTFL!!

-- Shaq (bwaahahahaa!! @ laughing. all the way to the bank), June 14, 2001.


Shaq,

Eight of sixteen, so... typical. Again, your performance from the free throw line can only be described as pathetic.

It is much like watching a trained circus animal that just can't quite master the new trick. At times, one can almost feel sorry for you. Of course, then you go into that bent knee, arm swinging walk (that appears to be a cross between that of a professional wrestler and that of a chimpanzee), and all thoughts of sympathy quickly disappear.

I look forward to watching you perform in game five. Maybe your trainer will find the right combination of treats for you like he did in game three.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 14, 2001.

Yes, it is obvious that the Lakers are better. The rich and powerful prevail again. It's enough to make me a Democrat.

Wait! The rich and powerful are the Democrats!

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), June 14, 2001.


J, while I admit that it's every fan's right to bellyache, it's up to you not to act like an asshole while you're doing it.

-- Miserable SOB (misery@misery.com), June 14, 2001.

Miserable SOB,

You assume too much. I am not a fan, nor am I one to "bellyache".

But as long as you've got us on the topic of giving advice, "it's up to you not to act like an asshole while you're doing it".

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 14, 2001.

"I am not a fan, nor am I one to 'bellyache'."

Well... if you say so.

-- Miserable SOB (misery@misery.com), June 14, 2001.


Leave poor little J alone, he's not bellyaching, he's just suffering from a massive inferiority complex. Since he isn't capable of doing anything well, he criticizes those who are the best in the world at what they do. It helps to maintain his delusion that he is superior, when in reality he is nothing but a worthless pissant momma's boy.

-- cyber freud (J has no @ self. esteem), June 14, 2001.

" Leave poor little J alone, he's not bellyaching, he's just suffering from a massive inferiority complex. Since he isn't capable of doing anything well, he criticizes those who are the best in the world at what they do. It helps to maintain his delusion that he is superior, when in reality he is nothing but a worthless pissant momma's boy. " Pot calling the kettle black.

-- (pot@callingKettle.black), June 15, 2001.

J, you be nothin but a white foo. I’m an in-close in your face kind a guy: don’t care bout’ no free frows, ya hear? Come tonight, I be series MVP and you still be a white foo.

How bout’ Coaches lady? Bet ya didn’t know he’s been stickin it to the bosses daughter for two years. Ha, ha.

-- Shaq (is@the.man), June 15, 2001.


Yeah J, if you come to the game tonight I will let you be my seat cushion. When I fart in your face, you will understand that one of my farts is more valuable than your entire life.

-- Shaq (calling@my.momma.black), June 15, 2001.

cyber fraud,

Completely inaccurate yet again.

Now go get your Psych 101 textbook and guess again.


pot,

You are probably onto something; offhand, I would say that cyber fraud probably suffers greatly from penis envy, as well.


Can somebody get a translator in here?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 15, 2001.

J, that would presume you HAD a "penis".

-- (you're@moron.j), June 15, 2001.


Oh look, another cowardly anonymous troll!

As Paracelsus so aptly put it on another thread, "The quality of a man is inverse to the quality of his enemies".

Have you figured out the meaning of the word 'inverse', yet, cowardly troll? LOL.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 15, 2001.

I bet cyber frood went out and got himself a Phil Jackson hairdo.

-- cypher floyd (alice@don't.cry), June 15, 2001.

Like I say J, you still a white foo and I be the KING!!

-- Shaq (king@of.LA), June 16, 2001.

J (Y2 Jacking off @ home. com),

I am the MVP of the WORLD CHAMPION Los Angeles Lakers.

KISS MY BIG BLACK ASS!!

-- Shaq (Repugs have their heads @ up. their asses), June 16, 2001.


Shaq,

Yet another pathetic performance from the foul line. Nine of nineteen. It looks as if your trainer ran out of those treats that worked so well in game three.

Make sure to spend the off season making laughable "B" movies and ridiculous rap records instead of working on your free throw shooting. I have come to enjoy your pathetic performances. I just hope the trainer doesn't get a big shipment of those treats.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 16, 2001.

word, J, word!

-- Billy Ray (the@phantom.mullet), June 17, 2001.

Word to your mother? Cooooool, Billy Ray.

-- (Vanilla@unemployment.office), June 17, 2001.

Free throws are the way fags like J score points. Most real players have to use a lot more brains and muscle to rack up the points that win games consistently.

-- (J is @ fag. boy), June 17, 2001.

fag. boy,

Are you implying that Shaq uses "brains" to score?

To quote another forum member, "BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA"!

Please see a medical doctor at once, your words make it obvious that you have left reality, and are now existing in some fantasy world of your own making.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 17, 2001.

J (Y2 Jacking off @ home. com),

Once again, we see that J has completely lost touch with reality, criticizing the brainpower of the Most Valuable Player in the World of Basketball. Obviously this has absolutely no relation to the talents of this player, otherwise he would not be the MVP.

Instead of insulting the intelligence of intellects, J insults the intelligence of an athlete, who is highly paid for his ability to excel at physical tasks, not mental ones. Although this criticism has no basis in reality, it does help J to compensate for his inferiority complex, and feeds his delusions of superiority.

Why not insult the mentally challenged too, or insult Einstein because he was not good at basketball?? Bwaaaahahahaaa!! The things that mentally ill people do still amaze me!

-- cyber freud (J suffers from severe neuroses manifested @ inferiority. complex), June 17, 2001.


my gawd you guys will fight about ANYTHING

-- (cin@cin.cin), June 17, 2001.

Oh cool, the garbage truck driver is pretending to be a psychologist.

-- cypher fraud (suffers@from.SmallPaycheckSyndrome), June 17, 2001.

"Are you implying that Shaq uses 'brains' to score?"

If he isn't, then what the heck does that say about all those centers in the NBA who score less than Shaq - meaning all of them?

Are you saying you don't think any amount of "brains" are used by any basketball player to score?

If not, then what makes Shaq different than those players who use "brains"?

-- Miserable SOB (misery@misery.com), June 18, 2001.


SOB,

Don't waste your time talking to J, he has his head stuck up his ass.

-- (and he can't @ get. it out), June 18, 2001.


cyber fraud,

I do insult the mentally challenged...


but you are just so deserving of it.


cin,

Almost. : )


Miserable SOB,

You wrote, "If he isn't (using brains to score), then what the heck does that say about all those centers in the NBA who score less than Shaq - meaning all of them"?

This is painfully obvious, and really should not have to be explained, but... those NBA centers who score less than Shaq can (and quite possibly do)all have more brains than he, if he has more physical talent. There is no doubt that the 7'1'', 300 pound behemouth has much raw physical talent. I have even said so myself earlier in the thread.

But for an anonymous coward to claim that lowering one's shoulder into an opposing center to knock him down, and then dunking over his prone body is the hallmark of "brains" is laughable to an extreme, and shows very little capacity in the area of thinking. Maybe the anonymous coward is the great Shaq, himself?

What is also extremely laughable is cyber fraud's knee jerk reaction to oppose all of that which I post, even though it puts him on the same side of the fence as the anonymous coward who believes that the "300 pound lower the shoulder" move demonstrates an incredible amount of brain power.

I am just thankful that in the NBA, there are no clubs.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 18, 2001.

"I have an opinion."

--"Your opinion is wrong!"

"YOU are sexually inadequate!"

--"YOU have underdeveloped genitalia!"

"YOUR genitals are virginal!"

--"YOUR genitals are imaginary!"

"YOU lack proper gender identification!"

--"YOU are sexually imprinted on pigs!" :

:

-- I'll have the usual, please. (s@me.sdd), June 18, 2001.


J, you seem to be missing a lot of important details when you watch Shaq play. Pity. Understanding the action is part of the enjoyment.

-- Miserable SOB (misery@misery.com), June 18, 2001.

J: "There is no doubt that the 7'1'', 300 pound behemouth has much raw physical talent."

Damn, I wish I had the cite to back this up. All I have is my memory of an analysis that was done back in the 1970s of sports coverage in the media.

The study counted how often sports writers and sports broadcasters mentioned the physical prowess vs. the intelligence of the players whose play they were describing. They found that black players in all sports were consistently praised in terms of their superior "physical" ability, while white players were consistently praised in terms of their "smart" play.

This, of course, was a great way to belittle the achievments of the some very great players. You see, J, you are carrying on an old tradition.

I don't buy your point. Sure Shaq uses his size. But he uses it intelligently, for what it is worth. He doesn't misjudge what shots to take or when to pass out of a double team. He positions well for rebounds, instead of just trying to grab stuff over the top. He knows the game and he plays the game. He isn't just some bull running over people and dunking.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), June 18, 2001.


Celebration Riot

Friday, June 22, 10:00 PM at Staples Center. Bring bats, firearms, incendiary devices, riot gear and alcohol.

-- (JackNickelson@party.hearty), June 18, 2001.


Miserable SOB,

No, I don't believe that I am missing any important details. Why don't you expound on some of the ones that I am supposedly missing.

Understanding that a player missing roughly half of his free throws can be a huge liability, especially down the stretch in a close game, is part of the enjoyment. But you knew that already. : )


Little Nipper,

How thoughtful of you to show up late to the thread and insinuate that I am a racist. But I forgot, it is not politically correct to point out the obvious flaws of someone of color. To do so, of course, means that you are a racist. In the politically correct year of 2001, people of color do not have flaws.

If you also choose to believe that lowering one's massive shoulder to knock opposing centers out of the way is intelligence, then I am not sure that there is much about which to argue. You may want to note that in game three of the finals, the officials decided to call a couple of the patented Shaq shoulder blocks for what they actually are - offensive fouls. He was then quickly delegated to sitting on the bench.

Unless you believe that he has learned that the officials have mostly given him carte blanche to lower the shoulder on offense, I see little intelligence displayed in Shaq's game.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 18, 2001.

Jack,

"Celebration Riot"

"Bring bats, firearms, incendiary devices, riot gear and alcohol".

Now that is funny.

What is not funny is that someone will most likely get killed that night.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 18, 2001.

J said: "How thoughtful of you to show up late to the thread and insinuate that I am a racist."

For what it buys you, I don't kow if you are a racist or not. I haven't looked into the question and it is not of any great moment to me. My point was that giving someone credit for "physical skills" is in itself stupid and condescending in the extreme.

At the level Shaq and the NBA plays at, everyone has enormous physical skills. It all boils down to what you make of them. Shaq made an MVP on a championship team out them. Yes, his free throw shooting is an obvious weakness, but it doesn't define his intelligence, his value, or his worth. He is a champion. Eat your f'ing heart out.

I don't even like the LA Lakers, as a fan, but I don't make the mistake of underestimating Shaq's intelligence, as you do. It works for him and his team. That is the acid test, in spite of your un-bellyaching.

Tell it to the marines, fella.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), June 18, 2001.


Little Nipper,

You said, 'My point was that giving someone credit for "physical skills" is in itself stupid and condescending in the extreme'. If that alone was your point, then why the "black player", "white player" commentary?

First, you misquoted me. I never said "physical skills", I said "physical talent". I would consider physical skills to be those things that one acquires through practice, such as the ability to dribble, shoot, and pass. Physical talent, on the other hand, are things that one is gifted with, such as being 7'1'' tall, or weighing 300 lbs. I meant the latter.

Second, my pointing out that being 7'1'', 300 lbs is an advantage in the game of basketball is "stupid and condescending in the extreme" only in your mind. Elsewhere it is merely a factual statement.

Yes, in the NBA, everyone has enormous physical talent when compared to you and me. Shaq, however, has enormous physical talent even when compared to other NBA players. His ability to dribble, shoot, and pass are not phenomenal. His 7'1'', 300 lb body is phenomenal.

I never said that his free throw shooting defined his intelligence. Some anonymous coward, however, basically said that his "lower the shoulder clearout move", did. Do you agree that being able to knock over opposing centers is a sign of great intelligence? Or is it more likely a sign of raw brute power?

You also said, "He is a champion. Eat your f'ing heart out".

Oh please, can you spare me the emotional crap? He plays a game , he didn't discover the polio vaccine.

From what I have seen of Shaq, I find it highly unlikely that I am underestimating his intelligence. I may, however, have been overestimating yours.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 19, 2001.

J: "Physical talent, on the other hand, are things that one is gifted with, such as being 7'1'' tall, or weighing 300 lbs."

To back up your claim that I misrepresented you, you claim that height and weight are 'talents'?

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), June 19, 2001.


Little Nipper,

My choice of the word 'talent' was not the best. The word 'attribute' would probably have been better. I can see where there could be some ambiguity.

Nonetheless, in that post, I alluded to an earlier post that I had made. In that earlier post, I said, "There is no doubt in my mind that you possess the greatest physique for basketball of any NBA player in the league today, possibly even in the history of the game".

My posts were referring, albeit somewhat unclearly, to Shaq's God-given physical talents (or attributes) such as his height and weight, and not to his physical skills such as dribbling and shooting.

Having cleared that up, can I ask why you haven't answered my question regarding the "black player", "white player" commentary that you felt inclined to include while making your point?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 19, 2001.

Did anyone see Mutumbo on Letterman last night? What a class guy---personable, bright, modest and spending big personal bucks to build a hospital in his native Congo.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), June 19, 2001.

J: "Having cleared that up, can I ask why you haven't answered my question regarding the "black player", "white player" commentary that you felt inclined to include while making your point?"

I mentioned them because that was what the study found.

You, on the other hand, denigrate Shaq in comparison to all other centers in the NBA. Since a great many of them are black, it is highly unlikely that the target of your denigration was chosen on account of his skin color. This would absolve you from racism.

However, because your judgement of Shaq completely contradicts the judgement of the coaches, players, and referees of the NBA (people whose knowledge can be safely assumed to far exceed yours), then I find it highly likely that you have come to your conclusion for some other irrational or prejudicial reason.

Furthermore, the means you used to denigrate him is precisely the same as that outlined in the study. So, I thought it was appropriate to cite it as a common technique for demeaning athletes while appearing to have better reasons than blind prejudice or animosity.

If it makes you feel better, I will stipulate I detect no hint of racism in your deeply irrational and prejudiced judgement of Shaq. You may quote me freely on this.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), June 19, 2001.


Little Nipper,

You claim that my "judgment of Shaq completely contradicts the judgment of the coaches, players, and referees of the NBA (people whose knowledge can be safely assumed to far exceed yours)".

Sorry to interrupt your ego trip, but that is your opinion, and nothing else. Just because you claim it to be fact, that does not make it such.

Has it ever occurred to you that "the coaches, players, and referees of the NBA (people whose knowledge can be safely assumed to far exceed yours )" view Shaq in the exact same manner that I do: A player with fair to average skills and brains, who has the perfect NBA body?

Of course it hasn't occurred to you. That would take an open mind, and yours has already closed to any ideas other than those that you have pre concluded to be true.

Keep on spouting off about "irrational reason" and "blind prejudice or animosity". That way you can feel good about yourself as you batten down the hatches of your mind, making sure that no idea that is counter to those that you cling so tenaciously to, can even be entertained as being true.

"If it makes you feel better, I will stipulate that I detect no hint of open mindedness in your deeply irrational and prejudiced judgment of Shaq. You may not quote me freely on this".

I would hate to give up any potential royalties. : )

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 19, 2001.

Man, you sure are a sorry-ass whiner J.

Why don't you just admit it to yourself, the Sixers sucked and they LOST.

Whether they were beaten by a huge bigfoot buffoon or a barrelfull of chimpanzees doesn't matter much now, they were BEATEN, and beaten BAD.

Go have a good cry, throw some darts at at a picture of Shaq if it makes you feel better, and get over it.

Start looking forward to next year, when perhaps your dream will come true... a thin white male with an average build and a high IQ will score all of his free throws, and lead his team to be the World Champs... NOT!!

-- (J sure is a sore loser @ will he ever. get over it?), June 19, 2001.


Keep on spouting off about "irrational reason" and "blind prejudice or animosity".

OK. Here is what you said earlier in this thread:

It is much like watching a trained circus animal that just can't quite master the new trick. At times, one can almost feel sorry for you. Of course, then you go into that bent knee, arm swinging walk (that appears to be a cross between that of a professional wrestler and that of a chimpanzee), and all thoughts of sympathy quickly disappear.

Souonds like blind prejudice and animosity to me.

Just because you claim it to be fact [that Shaq is highly respected for his ability, not just his body], that does not make it such.

Sorry. When the league votes for MVP, they don't put an asterisk by the award with a footnote explaining that the award was given only to a player because he has a perfect NBA body but mediocre skills. It the league's highest accolade for the player.

I say this award is evidence that the members of the league admire Shaq's skill. Prove me wrong.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), June 19, 2001.


Little Nipper,

You wrote, "Sounds like blind prejudice and animosity to me". I hold no animosity towards Shaq, and the prejudice is hardly blind, it is very well founded.

Yes, you are sorry. But yet again, your assertion that by being named the playoff MVP, Shaq therefore must have above average skill and brains, does not necessarily follow. Rather, it could also mean that Shaq has below average skill and brains, but he is gifted with tremendous physical attributes. Hence, the playoff MVP award.

Your silly comments about an asterisk and a footnote are merely red herrings. I am not arguing that he didn't win the playoff MVP award. I am arguing that he won it, and the other accomplishments throughout his career, by being born with an incredible body for basketball, and not because of any Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, or Julius Erving, type of basketball talent.

Your last line is hilarious. However, you forgot the, "or I'm going to hold my breath", part. LOL.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 19, 2001.

"I hold no animosity towards Shaq, and the prejudice is hardly blind, it is very well founded."

Maybe you'd like to explain how is it that having mediocre skills and a perfect body for the NBA leads to getting 6 or 8 assists every game?

You asked me for evidence that the members of the league agreed with my view of Shaq. I provided evidence, based directly on actions taken by the members of the league. I could just as easily gone aorund and collected a bouquet of quotes from those same people, but I figured actions speak louder than words.

So far you have offered no evidence for your assertion that most of the league views Shaq in the same light you do.

"Your last line is hilarious. However, you forgot the, "or I'm going to hold my breath", part. LOL."

In other words, you can't prove me wrong and you're down to mere bluff.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), June 19, 2001.


oooooh J smiled at me! ::swoon:: =oP

-- (cin@cin.cin), June 19, 2001.

Little Nipper,

Seriously? How about that when the opposing team is forced to doubleteam Shaq so that he doesn't lower his shoulder and knock over their center, he just throws a pass over the top of the doubling defender (remember he has that perfect 7'1'' body) to his open teammate. That is hardly rocket science.

You are somewhat slow on this point; maybe you are distracted by some other task. I will, however, reiterate: "your assertion that by being named the playoff MVP, Shaq therefore must have above average skill and brains, does not necessarily follow".

You see, asserting something that may or may not be true does not make it true. I know that you wish it were so, but it is not.

The argument is not to show that "most of the league views Shaq" one way or another, as you are trying to define it. The argument is to show that he accomplishes what he does either primarily through his skill, or primarily through his physical attributes. I seem to have shut down your assist argument. Point for me.

Shaq is horrendous from the free throw line, which is arguably one of the easiest basketball skills to master, hence the term "free" throw. Point for me.

A large number of his points are scored on dunks, which are almost entirely the product of being tall, and are really not a skill maneuver assuming that you have enough height and even a modicum of jumping ability. Point for me.

His rebounds are again, primarily attributable to his height and to his massive frame that make it hard for opposing players to keep him from getting to the ball. Whereas Larry Bird used great skill at rebounding to make up for his lack of jumping ability, and Dennis Rodman exhibited uncanny ability to recognize where the basketball was going, Shaq merely gets his massive body close to the basket and grabs the ball. Point for me.

Four to zero, no bluff on my part. However, it is hilarious to see you claim that something is true just because you say that it is, and then to have the audacity to say, "Prove me wrong", no less!

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 19, 2001.

"Shaq is horrendous from the free throw line, which is arguably one of the easiest basketball skills to master"

Compared to other NBA players, Shaq is substandard at the free throw line. Only a fool would deny this. Unlike you, few people think this disqualifies Shaq as a skillful player.

SO, if your point is well taken, then consider Chris Dudley - a Yale graduate. Mr. Dudley is even worse than Shaq at the free throw line. I suppose Mr. Dudley's ivy league diploma must be a sham because he can't shoot free throws.

Now let's examine how well this point supports your assertions.

Shaq's free throw percentage does not say anything about his intelligence or how other members of the NBA view his intelligence. Sorry. This "point" doesn't get you any closer to establishing the truth of your assertions.

"A large number of his points are scored on dunks, which are almost entirely the product of being tall, and are really not a skill maneuver..."

Not a skill maneuver? That's funny. There's usually someone just about his height guarding him. Someone very skillful at defense.

The simple fact is you are wrong. Getting past that other seven-footer takes skill. Perhaps you are confused by the fact that Shaq often makes it look easy. That is another measure of his skill, J.

"His rebounds are again, primarily attributable to his height... "

If height is all there is to it, then why, in a league lousy with centers who are seven-foot or six-foot-eleven, does Shaq rebound so much better than most of them?

Who was that big Roumanian played for the Washington Bullets a while back? He was monstrously huge. Shoulders like a bull. Rebounding? He couldn't crack the top fifty in rebounds per minute.

Far from being a matter of height, any coach will tell you that rebounding is position, position, position, sweat and desire.

Sorry. Point four does not pass the laugh test.

"Four to zero, no bluff on my part."

Misdirection.

I asked you to prove that most of the league sees Shaq as a player with a perfect NBA body and mediocre brains and skills. You still haven't delivered one shred of evidence this assertion was correct.

There are thousands of NBA players, ex-NBA players, NBA coaches, ex-NBA coaches, college coaches, ex-college coaches, referees, talent scouts and so on - and you can't offer me a single quote even hinting that Shaq is a big brainless mediocrity blessed with a perfect physique.

Like I said. All bluff. Show me some better moves, J. You got no game and aren't worth the bother of lacing up.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), June 19, 2001.


Hmmmm... Aesthetically, Shaq stinks. Effectively, he's the best center since Wilt.

People watch the NBA for both aesthetics and for effectiveness ("effectiveness" == victory for the home team.)

I think Shaq is a big, unimaginitive, fat bruiser.

But I wish he played for my team.

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), June 19, 2001.


Little Nipper,

I see that my example of how Shaq getting his assists shows no great amount of skill didn't even merit a response from you. An obvious concession of the point to me. 1-0

You also concede that his free throw shooting skills are nearly non- existent. This of course, also reflects poorly on his jump shooting skills, especially from medium to long range. These together are evidence that he lacks skill at shooting both free throws, and medium range and longer jump shots. Dudley must mean red herring in some European language, but faced with the cards that you are trying to play, it was probably the best that you could do. Point to me. 2- 0

Evidently, your reading comprehension skills are very poor. Regardless of how much you would like to frame this into a "see how the league fawns over Shaq" argument, it is not. It is an argument over whether or not his achieved results (which I acknowledge) are gained primarily through his skills (your claim) or through his physical attributes (my claim).

Actually, your claim is funny. By the time that Shaq gets ready to dunk, he has usually bodied (remember, 7'1'', 300 lbs) the "skillful at defense" opposing center out of the way. Sometimes that opposing center is even left standing. Once there is no opposing player to defend, is dunking still a high skill play for someone who is 7'1''?

"The simple fact is that you are wrong". Powering his way through the opposing center is not skillful, it is brutish. Being over 300 lbs does make it easy for Shaq to plow through opposing centers; it is not, however, a measure of his skill. Point to me. 3-0

Now we come to the pathetic tactics of a defeated man: editing my post to try and strengthen his argument. Tsk, tsk. I truly thought that you had more integrity than that. Your edited version of my words were, "His rebounds are again, primarily attributable to his height..."

My actual words were, "His rebounds are again, primarily attributable to his height and to his massive frame..."

This was especially disingenuous considering your very next words were, "If height is all there is to it, then why, in a league lousy with centers who are seven-foot or six-foot-eleven, does Shaq rebound so much better than most of them"?

The answer lies right where you left it, on the cutting room floor: "his massive frame". This massive 300 lb frame allows him to easily move opposing centers out of the way so that he can get "position, position, position". I wonder how much skill it took Shaq to amass those 300 lbs? Point to me. 4-0

Penalty for underhanded editing of the opposing debater's words: Point to me. 5-0

You trying to frame the argument as a Shaq popularity contest is misdirection, indeed. I have proven that Shaq's skills are nothing more than average, if even that. I have amply demonstrated that his physical gifts, however, are nearly perfect for an NBA center.

Someone in this debate is "all bluff" (and a little dishonest editing), but it is not me.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 19, 2001.

ROTFLMAO!!

Sheesh J, what a loser you are!

-- Shaq is the best (just be a man and admit @ you. are wrong), June 19, 2001.


No, I gotta go with "J" on this one.

Shaq is incredible, but it's not because of skill as much as power and size. There is a good deal of skill there, but nothing the average really-good CBA or European center doesn't have.

He's just the right big guy in the right organization at the right time. The LA team, and the NBA, need him. Thus he gets to use his big butt to score points, get rebounds, and get the ball to Kobe.

I still would like him on *our* team, though.

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), June 19, 2001.


Jesus J, the more you say, the more you look like an asshole. Shaq is the MVP of the World Champs for chrissakes. The guy is good, DAMN good. I'm sure you're upset that the Sixers don't have a player like him, but that's their problem, not his. You remind me of the kid who drops the ball and then says "no fair, that big guy ran into me"!

-- lol keep whining (waaaaa @ waaaaa. waaaaa!), June 20, 2001.

Bemused,

Isn't it amazing how many people (just on this forum, no less!) can't see that it is Shaq's physical gifts of near perfect height and weight that primarily make his game what it is?


anonymous coward,

What is also somewhat surprising is the number of anonymous cowards who are so simple that they think that I am a Sixers fan. Based on your extraordinary writing sample, you remind me of the kid who was routinely sent to the principal's office all through school, until finally dropping out, or being kicked out, in your later years.

Your type often ended up being incarcerated. Are you accessing the forum from a minimum, or a maximum security facility?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 20, 2001.

LOL! You crack me up J!

You were feeling pretty cocky when the Lakers lost the first game, so you figured you could bash Shaq. Stupid move.

Now, 4 games and 50 posts later, you're finally beginning to realize you stuck your foot in your mouth, and you're finally starting to admit that Shaq is a damn good player!

You are a stupid and stubborn son of a bitch, but perhaps there is still a rat turd of hope for you yet!

-- (LOL!! @ you're so dumb. you remind me of Dumbya!), June 20, 2001.


anonymous coward,

I could not have cared less which team won the series. I can bash Shaq regardless of whether the Lakers win or not. His free throw shooting alone gives me bashing material for a long time to come. A little advice for you: if you think that it is a stupid move, then it is probably not a stupid move.

No, ignorant one, I am not just "finally starting to admit that Shaq is a damn good player"! In my second post I praised his physique as being the best in basketball today. His physical attributes are top notch, and they go a long way in the results department, especially when the NBA referees are willing to turn a blind eye on the "lower the shoulder" move that he so often does.

I may indeed be stubborn, but being right so often allows for that. As far as being stupid, here's a little advice for you: if you think that someone is stupid, then that person is probably not stupid.

By the way, you didn't answer my question. Are you currently in a minimum or maximum facility?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 20, 2001.

Bwaaahahahahaaa!!!

Gaaawd, you make me laugh!

You started out by criticizing one of the top 5 players in the NBA, then when he turns out to be the MVP of the chamionships, you gradually try to back you're way out of your stupid statements!!

HAAAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAA!!!

-- hee hee haa haa hee (you crack. me up! @ big.time!), June 20, 2001.


anonymous coward,

You are quite ignorant. Have one of the guards read the entire thread and then have him explain it to you. You are beginning to make me question whether you are even incarcerated at all. I am beginning to think that you may instead be residing in a mental hospital.

See how easily I process new information; and you said that I was stubborn.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 20, 2001.

This one is getting out of hand.

Shaq may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but the man is about as good as it gets on the court. Most all the big guys (and I know there have been a few exceptions) have been pretty crappy foul shooters throughout the history of the game.

Fact is, Shaq is THE MAN to beat right now. His teammates know it, his fans know it, he knows it and his competitors know it.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), June 20, 2001.


NBA 2002 - LA Threepeat

NBA 2003 - LA Fourpeat

NBA 2005 - LA Fivepeat

NBA 2006 - Philadelphia drafts Mutombo's younger brother--8' 400# Abdul, a senior at Kinshasha East Side HS. Mutombo brothers + Iverson beat LA in four.

NBA 2007 - Shaq expires in hubris attack, Kobe goes Hollywood

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), June 20, 2001.


NBA 2002: Shaq's butt get a new zipcode.

NBA 2003: Shaq's butt's zipcode's GNP is higher than France's NBA 2004: Shaq is no longer able to play, his butt keeps breaking the "over and back" rule.

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), June 20, 2001.


"Fact is, Shaq is THE MAN to beat right now. His teammates know it, his fans know it, he knows it and his competitors know it.

Deano"

Right on Deano. Everyone in the world seems to know it except sissy-boy J. He doesn't like Shaq's style of shooting free throws.

You see, in the gay world, free throws are the most important part of the game. J especially likes it if the player sticks his butt out in a cute fashion when he dips down for the shot. Shaq ain't got a cute butt.

-- bwaahahahaa! (J loves cute @ free throw. shooters), June 20, 2001.


anonymous coward,

I am very much heterosexual. You, however, seem to have an abnormal infatuation with Shaq.

As I have said all along, with the exception of his Neanderthal-like free throw shooting, Shaq has very good numbers. One last time, as I tire of your stupidity: As his Neanderthal-like free throw shooting suggests, Shaq's skills are sub par. How is it that someone with below average skills puts up very good numbers, you ask?

The answer is that he has the best body in the NBA. He is 7'1'', 300 lbs, and ever since Michael Jordan retired (which sent the NBA scrambling for a new league superstar) the officials seem to have lost the desire to whistle Shaq for that patented lower the shoulder offensive foul. Interesting coincidence, don't you think? Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot; you don't think.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 21, 2001.

J (Y2 Jacking off @ home. com),

You may not be homosexual but you are definitely a fag.

-- (sissy heteros @ are. still fags), June 21, 2001.


anonymous coward,

What is it like to be cinder block dumb? Do you even realize how stupid that you are? If so, do you frequently get embarrassed and frustrated by your inferiority?

If not, is ignorance truly bliss? Are you so stupid that you don't even realize that over 99% of the population (including children six years and up) are smarter than you are?

Can you relate to the Billy Bob Thornton character in the movie, Slingblade? Do you comprehend that Billy Bob Thornton was just acting in that movie, and that he isn't really like that in real life?

At first you were funny in a pathetic sort of way. Then it became tedious trying to get your tiny mind to understand the most basic of concepts. Now I have become intrigued by your situation - how does someone who is as profoundly dumb as you are see himself?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 22, 2001.

Hey, whiner-boy J! See this trophy? This means I am the MVP of the world boy, so why don't you quit you're crying. Bend over while I shove this thing up your tight little ass, and I'll show you how to take it like a man! HAAHAHAHAHAAHAA!!!



-- Shaq (I shit @ bigger. than you), June 22, 2001.


Shaq/anonymous coward,

There is an underlying theme (besides stupidity) that runs through all of your posts. That theme is homosexuality. You are queer, or whatever the politically correct term of the day is. You long to be Shaq's lover, and that is why my posts, in all of their truth, get you so riled.

It must be incredibly difficult for you to be stupid, unemployed, and homosexual, and then have me cast the harsh glare of the spotlight of truth on your poorly skilled behemoth, Shaq.

I have just a bit of advice for you, my imbecilic cretin. For all of his shortcomings, I have never read or heard anything that would make me conclude that Shaq, unlike yourself, is queer. Playoff MVP or not, you should take the Shaq poster down off of your bedroom wall and put back up the one of the Village People.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 22, 2001.

Hey J, I took a big old crap this morning. It reminded me of you, except it didn't whine.

-- Shag (big macs @ make. me crap), June 22, 2001.

Moderation questions? read the FAQ