The real story: The mother was anti-goverment and taught her kids how to use guns, so Dumbya's fascists devised a way to take her out of commission. As soon as her handicapped husband died, some of their income was cutoff, so the IRS used this as an excuse to conduct an audit and seize their property. They claim she owed $8,000 in taxes so they sold her property for $50,000. Whether or not she actually owed taxes is questionable, but even more so, where is the other $42,000? Then they claim she was beating the children and lock her away so they can take the kids and brainwash them out of their anti-government beliefs. If they really cared about this family they would have allowed her to sell the property at its much higher real value, or at least give her the $42,000. That is enough money to last the family for several years, and some of them could get jobs. Nope, this is the way Dumbya's goons deal with anyone they perceive as a threat to their reign of fascist domination.

*******

Children end standoff in Idaho

June 2, 2001 Posted: 11:23 p.m. EDT (0323 GMT)

GARFIELD BAY, Idaho (CNN) -- Five children ended their five-day standoff with authorities Saturday and voluntarily left their rundown house in rural Idaho where they had been holed up with weapons and half-wild dogs.

Describing sheriff's deputies as tired but happy, one sheriff's department official said authorities got the ending they wanted.

"It was exactly the one we were hoping for: safely, quietly with no undue pressure on the children," said Bonner County Sheriff's Department Sgt. Robert Rahn.

The children are being treated at Bonner General Hospital in Sandpoint, Idaho, according to Director of Nursing Susan Montgomery.

Rahn said the children will be turned over to the state's Children's Services Department, which would then be in charge of their care.

Authorities earlier identified the children as Kathryn, 16, Mary, 13, James, 11, Frederick, 9, and Jane, 8.

He also said the family's property was still secured for investigative and safety reasons. Rahn said several agencies had offered to help with the more than two dozen dogs.

The sheriff's department said family members, close friends of the family and some sheriff deputies had spent the day in talks with the children.

The standoff began Tuesday when the children released as many as 27 dogs on sheriff's deputies when they tried to take them into protective custody after their mother was arrested for child neglect. Their father died two weeks ago. Neighbors said the children were afraid their family would be split up if they gave themselves up to police.

Benjamin McGuckin, 15, brother of the five children who had left the home and was taken into protective custody Thursday.

Until Friday, the remaining children had not talked to anyone. On that day, people the children know visited the house, but the children stayed in a back room and would not talk to them face-to-face.

"They got within the threshold of the house and were able to communicate with the children orally," said Bryce Powell, the attorney for JoAnn McGuckin, 45, the mother of the children.

"They brought in food and water and were able to deliver a message from my client to the children which stated, 'I love you. I hope you are okay and please cooperate with this man, Mr. Powell.'"

Sheriff: Mother 'not cooperative'

The children's mother, who remains in jail on $100,000 bond on a charge of felonious injury to children, was "not cooperative" and would not be taken to the home to talk to the children, Rahn said.

A bail reduction hearing for the mother was postponed Friday after a storm knocked out power to the court.

Mrs. McGuckin's husband and the father of the children, Michael McGuckin, died about two weeks ago after being bed-ridden for several years with multiple sclerosis, Rahn said.

Powell said the mother and children have gone through an excruciating ordeal since then. He said the family is "extremely poor," and that the mother had trouble getting Social Security payments in recent weeks. On top of that, he said, their water well broke and they couldn't afford to fix it.

"They had no money and were doing what they could to survive," he said.

It was not clear when Benjamin left the house. He approached a neighbor's house Thursday and they then contacted authorities.

Local attorney Edgar Steele said he had been asked by Mrs. McGuckin to represent the family. He said Benjamin had "been walking around in the woods for two days before approaching the neighbor.

Steele announced Saturday he was voluntarily withdrawing from the case because he had been cut off from all access to Mrs. McGuckin by the Bonner county sheriff.

The lawyer called that action "outrageous" and said he "had not abandoned the McGuckins" and would provide free legal services to the family if any member personally asked him for help.

Steele said he had been representing Mrs. McGuckin on civil issues, pending the criminal charge against her. He claimed the county seized her property for $8,000 in back taxes and then sold it for approximately $50,000.

He also said the standoff has attracted the attention of anti-government groups, and Internet reports say members of such groups are moving into northern Idaho in response to the standoff.

"Now some of these people, I've seen some of the Internet reports, seem to think somehow that this is another Ruby Ridge in the making," Steele said.

Ruby Ridge was the 1992 shootout in Idaho in which the wife and son of white separatist Randy Weaver were killed during a standoff with federal agents.

Powell said intervention by militia groups would not help.

-- (kids are being given @ mind control. drugs), June 03, 2001

Answers

story by Timothy McVeigh

-- (TMcVeigh@bomb.job), June 04, 2001.

Does this NOT happen just about daily in the Ghetto? Why is it news if some whiteass trailer scum in Idaho or Montana decides to not invite the feds in for a pepsi?

Difference is, in the Ghetto the cops just bust in and who cares? Stand-offs? What? for 5 minutes? Smoke goes in, doors are bashed in, dogs and swat enters. Over and done before even Debbie at KWHT can call a van out to cover the disturbance. Doubt this even happens cause who gives a crap if some n*ggers had their "whites" violated anyhow?

Where is the Reverand when a brother need him?

-- (mike@tyson.chicken), June 04, 2001.

The American people are starting to wake up to the realization of who Dumbya really is. More patriots will stand up to him, but they will be no match for Dumbya's goons. Even many conservatives are now disgusted by Dumbya.

-- Signs of the Times (heil@king.Dumbya), June 04, 2001.

So we're supposed to let the kids continue to live in dogshit?

No running water either and no $$ to fix it. Someone had to step in or some of those younger ones would have died.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), June 04, 2001.

Lots of Americans grew up without running water until the last two or three generations.

The family's land was valued far in excess of the back taxes owed. The land was sold out from under them under legally questionable circumstances. The family refused to vacate, and without a solid legal title the new owner(s) couldn't evict. Now the property is empty. A woman sits in jail with a bond set higher than bonds we set for those accused of violent crimes, and the supposed victims were not in poor health. The state will hold her children hostages until she agrees to the theft of her land.

-- helen (need@real.one), June 04, 2001.

"Lots of Americans grew up without running water until the last two or three generations."

True statement helen, but folks didn't live as long back then either. Attributed to several things and I'm sure indoor plumbing was one of them.

There were comments in the news about dog feces being all over the place. Someone needed to do SOMETHING.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), June 04, 2001.

Hey anon poster, you stupid nimrod, the kids are out of that situation and nobody got hurt. With the dad dead and mommy off in her little lala land, something had to be done for them. It was handled far better than they Weaver or Waco episodes and you don't have a fucking clue about what your talking about. If President Bush had anything to do with the outcome he should be commended but he didn't. If you consider all law enforcement officers to be goons under this administration and something quite different under Clinton's then you need to get a grip. I suspect you are the poster that likes to use Dumbya many times over and I think it is damn funny that you are so pissed off. It's too bad you don't have a job cause you got way too much free time on your hands!

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), June 04, 2001.

The family's land was valued far in excess of the back taxes owed. The land was sold out from under them under legally questionable circumstances. The family refused to vacate, and without a solid legal title the new owner(s) couldn't evict. Now the property is empty. A woman sits in jail with a bond set higher than bonds we set for those accused of violent crimes, and the supposed victims were not in poor health. The state will hold her children hostages until she agrees to the theft of her land.

Pure speculation. How the hell would you know?

-- you were there right? (sure@you.know), June 04, 2001.

(If you believe no parent was ever wrongfully accused of child abuse or neglect, you must also believe that no cop ever falisified evidence and that no prosecutor ever withheld evidence in favor of the accused and that no person ever served time for a crime he didn't commit.)

The McGuckin Story

By Don Harkins

The McGuckin story, which, as I will explain, epitomizes both the arrogance of county government and the power of network dominant media. The story, which on the surface seems like a simple state- concern-for-the-welfare-of-children case, is incredibly complex. I believe that it boils down to a four (or more) year persecution of an unfortunate family that has a really neat, and possibly strategic, 40- acre piece of property with a pristine lake. This entire travesty would never have made more than a few lines of the local evening news if it had not been for one thing: The McGuckin children sicced their dogs on the "authorities" and made a stand.

Since the Idaho Observer keeps its office within 17 miles of the "standoff" and, since no other media in the area has the editorial license to tell the truth and, since millions of people all over the world are fixated on understanding the truth behind this surreal scenario, I will place things into proper perspective. My wife Ingri and I were able to gain the proper perspective by riding with Joann McGuckin's (former) attorney Edgar Steele while he delivered a letter that withdrew his representation from this case and when we discovered that a bond reduction hearing that had been scheduled for 4 p.m. had been postponed until Monday, June 4, 2001 amid strange circumstances.

Rather than turn this into a series of newsstories, this is just going to be Don talking. There will be a mixture of facts that can be verified by documentation and my own interpretation of events based upon my knowledge of the characters involved and other stories that I have covered which are connected or related. I will, however, break each segment down under a headline to make things easier to explain.

To fully understand the McGuckin story, it would be best to obtain copies of the November and May editions of The Idaho Observer wherein we reported the christening of the Cutthroat (a 110 foot unmanned submarine that is now being used for research in Lake Pend Oreille) and the Parkison story wherein another Bonner county family was squeezed for several years until they lost their property. I also suggest that you obtain a copy of the September, 2000 edition of The Spectrum newspaper (1-877-280-2866) wherein some interesting clues regarding this region's importance to sophisticated technology research are found.

It appears that the veneer of propriety on the part of the state is extremely thin in this case. Now that the "standoff" has ended, it will be a matter of simple investigation to prove that the McGuckin's land was stolen from them illegally and that the charges of child neglect alleged by Bonner County Prosecutor Phil Robinson were fabrications that are not supported by evidence.

Breaking News - The "standoff" has ended

By the evening of June 2, 2001, the standoff ended peacefully and the five remaining children have been taken to Bonner General Hospital where they were to spend the night. Three persons, including a family friend and neighbor whom the children trusted, made contact with the children and it was that contact which ultimately led to their decision to come out. Bonner County Sheriff Phil Jarvis claims that he sent word to the children that they would not be separated if he has anything to say about it. The three mediators also gave the kids a note from their mother in jail. It is reported that the note allegedly from mom was what compelled them to go with "authorities." Jarvis' promise that they would not be separated may not be his to keep as the children are now in thecustody of state child welfare workers who have made no such promises to the children.

By all reports the children were all in fine shape physically and mentally were in good spirits when they left their home. The children were taken to the hospital where they would all be given physicals. It is also likely that the hospital staff was be ordered to administer vaccines to make them current with state recommended vaccination regimen. If the children are healthy now and then begin to experience adverse reactions to vaccines, I am concerned that the mother will somehow be blamed for the delayed reaction of ill health and that the introduction of toxic substances directly into their blood streams will not be considered as the cause. I am also concerned that the "authorities" will, in their attempts to pacify the children's emotional needs, start feeding them a bunch of junk food which will exascerbate vaccine-related health complications and compromise their psychological equanimnity. There is still no word on when Joann McGuckin will be released from jail though it appears there is no reason to continue holding her because her children are obviously not the victims of neglect as alleged in the complaint filed by Bonner County Prosecutor Phil Robinson May 29, 2001.

Myths and fabrications:

1. The children have no food and are eating lilly pad soup. This is not true as more than one person reports that the children have plenty of food.

2. The children have no heat. This is north Idaho. They have wood and a wood stove.

3. The children have no electricity. The house has electricity that is hooked up and paid for.

4. The family has 27 vicious and hungry dogs running wild and hunting in a pack. The number is probably closer to 15 dogs that are more protective than they are vicious.

5. The children are victims of neglect. Though they may not live in a family like yours, these kids are not behaving like neglected kids. These kids love each other, their deceased father, their mother and their home.

6. Joann McGuckin spends her money on alcohol. There is no evidence of this.

7. The children are armed. Benjamin said "go get the guns" to start this standoff. Since that time nobody has seen them brandishing any weapons. Benjamin, however, has allegedly admitted that there were five guns in the house.

8. Joann McGuckin has mental problems and does not trust the government. Joann has lost her husband, she has been slipping into poverty for the last several years as her husband's health deteriorated and has been in full knowledge that the loss of her home was imminent. Intrusive government has not attempted to help her, it has been attempted to remove her from the property by a variety of means. Then, charges of child neglect are fabricated, she is tricked by police into being arrested, she is thrown in jail and her kids decide to defend their home. How would you feel?

9. The children must be taken into custody for their own protection because there is no place else for them to go. A family friend of ten years whom the children trust and like, who lives 30 minutes away on a 140 acre ranch has offered to take the children in but the state will not allow them to because they are not "licensed."

10. Benjamin "gave himself up to authorities." Benjamin had apparently left the house on a recon mission two days previously. He was unable to cross the police line and his coming into police custody more closely resembles capture than a voluntary surrender. Since he was taken into custody, nobody but "authorities" have had access to him.

11. The bond reduction hearing was canceled because of a power outage in the courthouse. The hearing was to take place at Bonner County Jail, not at the courthouse. There was a TV setup at the courthouse for media members who were going to watch the hearing from that location. There had been no power outage at the courthouse as of 4:20 p.m. when Ingri and I left. At 3:55 p.m. we learned that Judge Heise was still in the building and that Dublic Defender Bryce Powell was nowhere to be found.

12. Ed Steele had his license to practice law in Idaho suspended. Ed never mentioned such a thing and it does not stand to reason that he would volunteer to represent McGuckin in this high profile manner if he was going to be prevented from representing her in court. Steele said that he has not been informed that he is not longer licensed to practice law in Idaho.

13. The children are unhealthy and malnourished. There is no evidence to suggest this is true. The children appear to be healthy, vibrant and intelligent. Benjamin was given a physical after being taken into custody and is reportedly in excellent health. Benjamin reported that there is plenty of food and water in the house.

14. The children have been home schooled and taught to be suspicious of the government. Both of these things might be true, however the media spin is negative where I see nothing but positives. The children were smart enough to not be taken into custody by police who had tricked their mother into going to jail and had sold their property at auction when it appears that the foreclosure, seizure and sale of the property was conducted illegally. It would appear that being suspicious of government is a survival skill that all children should be taught. They are survivors, they are close-knit and they have proven to be more capable than most children who attend public school.

15. The father died of malnutrition and dehydration. This may be partially true, but persons who suffer for years from the ravages of degenerative disease may not feel like eating or drinking the last few days or weeks of their lives. It would be absurd to conclude that the last four years of his declining health was because he decided to starve himself and not drink water.

Steele withdraws from McGuckin case-for now:

SANDPOINT, June 1, 2001-At 2:30 p.m. today Attorney Edgar Steele hand delivered a letter to public defender Bryce Powell and Joann McGuckin that announced his withdrawal from the case. Steele, who I must say is a personal friend of mine, has stated to me that he would rather not practice law in the courts of north Idaho because it has been his experience that law is not the most important part of the judicial equation here. The fact that he decided to try to help this woman and her six children was, in my estimation, a purely selfless and noble gesture on his part.

Steele had an excellent visit with McGuckin May 31. McGuckin thanked Steele for representing her without charge and definitely, according to Steele, wanted him to represent her and the children in matters not related to Robinson's criminal complaint. He learned a lot and found that there were several areas that he could be of service to her because she and her family had been given a raw deal with regard to the loss of the property. Powell was representing her on the absurd criminal charges of felonious injury to children. Steele was up until midnight researching and studying documents pertaining to the case and working out a strategy. The following morning he was unable to talk to her; she only wanted to communicate with Steele through written memoranda and a couple of people friendly to McGuckin were suddenly noncommunicative. Steele said that he cannot adequately represent her under these conditions. He did tell Ingri and I that he left the door open for her, though, and that if she was able to get her thoughts together when things calm down, he would be glad to reconsider.

Based upon what we can infer from the characters involved, the fact that Powell is a young attorney trying to make a living in a tightly controlled small town legal environment, that he is very likely in way over his head in this case and that he must listen to the local power clique to have a future practicing law in Bonner county, it would appear that Powell convinced McGuckin to dissuade Steele, an extremely competant attorney who cannot be controlled by the local power clique, from digging into the injustices that have been done to the McGuckins.

After delivering the letter to McGuckin through her jailers, Steele was stopped by the news media to give on camera interviews. In anticipation of the bond reduction hearing scheduled to begin at 4 p.m. (it was at this time 3 p.m.) there were several local and national news teams and two satelite trucks waiting around in the Bonner County Sheriff's Department parking lot. Steele very eloquently and accurately said several things to the news media that would have made all concerned Americans very proud. When asked what he thought would be the best resolution of this matter, Steele said that McGuckin should be let out of jail immediately so she can go home to her kids and the police should go home to their families. He also indicated that it was his belief that Bonner County Prosecutor Phil Robinson's charges of child abuse were unfounded and demonstrably false.

Bond reduction hearing delayed:

SANDPOINT, June 1, 2001-A bond reduction hearing for Joann McGuckin that had been scheduled to take place at the Bonner County Jail at 4 p.m. here today in the court of Magistrate Judge Heise has been postponed until Monday, June 4 because public defender Bryce Powell was nowhere to be found. McGuckin, 45, was arrested through deception by the Bonner County Sheriff's Department Tuesday after Bonner County Prosecutor Phil Robinson filed a complaint against McGuckin for felonious injury to children. McGuckin is being held on $100,000 bond though most of the charges Robinson alleged against McGuckin have been demonstrated to be false.

Bond is a mechanism that is used to protect the community from the accused if they are at risk for fleeing prosecution or pose a danger to the community. McGuckin is not a danger to the community and the likelihood that she would flee the area and leave her children behind is so remote as to be absurd to contemplate. Therefore it would appear that $100,000 bond is excessive and put in place to keep her in jail so that she does not have the opportunity to speak to the press, have unmonitored access to legal counsel or have contact with her children.

Local and national media with satellite uplinks were positioned at the jail and Court room 2 at the Bonner County Courthouse in anticipation of the hearing. Ingri and I were with several other reporters in the courthouse at 3:30 p.m. when it was learned that Judge Heise was still on site because Powell was nowhere to be found though he was well aware of the hearing time, date and location. It was learned later that he had been out attempting to talk the children into giving themselves up. I believe that he was there doing that, but that it was an excuse to not be present at the bond reduction hearing at the jail. I believe that his controllers, the county that appointed him to represent McGuckin in this case, arranged his not being present for the hearing so that they could continue the hearing to Monday. I think they wanted a couple days to think, hoping that something magical would bring the standoff to an end before Monday. The more conspiratorial side of me is concerned that she will be psychologically manipulated into saying things that will compromise public perception of her in a negative way.

The kids: Kathryn, 16, Banjamin, 14, Mary, 13, James, 11, Fred, 9 and Jane, 8 I have heard several people say that the kids, though sometimes a little dirty, are nice, a little shy, but polite, intelligent and well spoken. It sounds like these children should be used as poster children for the benefits of home schooling rather than being labeled as outcasts unfit to function in polite society. I for one, am proud of the McGuckin children and hope to meet them some day and tell them so.

Conclusions to date:

This is a land grab case not a child abuse case. The kids are fine except that their father is dead and the police tricked their mom into being arrested on charges of felonious injury to children that are either bold faced lies or baseless accusations. In either event there is no evidence to support the charges against Joann McGuckin, there is no reason for her to be in jail and there is no justification of $100,000 bond as she is not s flight risk or a danger to society.

The McGuckin property, which has a homestead exemption and is worth nearly $500,000, was seized for $5,000 in back taxes and sold at auction for $50,000. It appears that the McGuckins have been under attack for at least four years and the intent was to steal their property. I personally believe the attack was subtle, and conducted with the use of sophisticated technologies that to most people are the stuff of science fiction. They became increasingly reclusive, I think, because nobody would believe them if they told them what was going on and they were afraid that people would think they were crazy.

So, the two components of this surrealistic scene is the provably illegal seizure and disposal of their property and the provably fabricated charges of child abuse and neglect. The veneer is so thin that when this thing begins to unravel, the corruption and arrogance behind this property theft will become obvious. I was a disappointed that though there are millions of people talking about this, the public was not represented at the jail or the courthouse. The only people on hand were media types. I guess people wish to be angered by the events by understanding the issue through the eyes of the dominant media.

Copies of the complaint of child neglect filed by Bonner County Prosecutor Phil Robinson (CR-01-01116) can be obtained by calling the Bonner County Courthouse at: (208) 265-1432. The Idaho Observer will FAX a copy. Call (208) 255-2307.

The Bonner County Prosecutor, Phil Robinson, can also be reached at the above number.

Don Harkins is the editor of The Idaho Observer, a monthy tabloid- sized, 24-page newspaper that seeks to report the truth of events that are shaping the socio/political, spiritual and economic demise of our our once free nation. For back issues or subscription information, contact The Idaho Observer at: (208) 255-2307 or by visiting the website at: http://www.proliberty.com/observer

-- helen (b@h.j), June 04, 2001.

There you go again Helen, ruining a good story by presenting the facts:>)))

For those of you that can read, this situation has been going on for many years. So I guess that the half-wit that started this thread should be blaming Clinton instead of Bush. This looks like a case of a family that elected to isolate themselves from their small community. Rarely a good decision.

-- Lay Down (on@the.couch), June 04, 2001.

Remember the Stitt’s?

-- Lay Down (on@the.couch), June 04, 2001.

The Idaho Observer is an extremely right-wing magazine. They believe in all sorts of loony stuff, like Chemtrails, INWO, and that vaccines are bad for you. I wouldn't rely too heavily on them as a source.

-- Observer (observer@observant.obs), June 04, 2001.

The same dipshit who wrote this thread headline would be all for the destruction of the 2nd Amendment, seeing as he was a Gore voter.

-- libs are idiots (moreinterpretation@ugly.com), June 04, 2001.

There you go again Helen, ruining a good story by presenting the facts:>)))

Facts? What facts? More speculation on top of speculation.

-- (facts@my.ass), June 04, 2001.

Talk to a cop sometime about how many times s/he has had to respond to a child abuse call from an ex-mother-in-law only to find nothing wrong in the child's home. Child abuse/neglect allegations are routine in divorce court. Elder abuse/neglect allegations are on the rise too, and do you know why? The agency that grabs the elder gains control of the elder's assets. 60 Minutes did a story on this type of social services fraud years ago.

If you don't want to believe it, I don't blame you. Go back to sleep, I'll turn the light off.

-- helen (try@gai.n), June 04, 2001.

Excellent posts Helen!

I'd like to see this kind of thing happen to all the posters so quick to trash this poor woman and her family. What a complete lack of compassion.

If this happened to them, it can happen to ANY OF US.......ANYTIME. But, some people are too stupid to see this for what it is.

-- Marg (okay@cutaway.com), June 04, 2001.

Top 10 reason's why Don Harkins' article is not credible and/or is extremely biased.

There will be a mixture of facts that can be verified by documentation and my own interpretation of events based upon my knowledge of the characters involved and other stories that I have covered which are connected or related.

His interpretation of events with his bias.

To fully understand the McGuckin story, it would be best to obtain copies of the November and May editions of The Idaho Observer wherein we reported the christening of the Cutthroat (a 110 foot unmanned submarine that is now being used for research in Lake Pend Oreille)

The "Cutthroat" was named by Idaho school children after the local trout species. It is a U.S. Navy project.

By all reports the children were all in fine shape physically and mentally were in good spirits when they left their home.

Um, not by the reports every one else saw.

It is also likely that the hospital staff was be ordered to administer vaccines to make them current with state recommended vaccination regimen. If the children are healthy now and then begin to experience adverse reactions to vaccines, I am concerned that the mother will somehow be blamed for the delayed reaction of ill health and that the introduction of toxic substances directly into their blood streams will not be considered as the cause. I am also concerned that the "authorities" will, in their attempts to pacify the children's emotional needs, start feeding them a bunch of junk food which will exascerbate vaccine-related health complications and compromise their psychological equanimnity.

Hmmm...got some sort of anti-vaccine agenda do we?

10. Benjamin "gave himself up to authorities." Benjamin had apparently left the house on a recon mission two days previously. He was unable to cross the police line and his coming into police custody more closely resembles capture than a voluntary surrender. Since he was taken into custody, nobody but "authorities" have had access to him.

Oh, and who should have access? Adults with anti-government, anti-social, anti-vaccine agendas?

13. The children are unhealthy and malnourished. There is no evidence to suggest this is true. The children appear to be healthy, vibrant and intelligent.

Subjective statement. They didn't appear that way to this observer.

14. The children have been home schooled and taught to be suspicious of the government. Both of these things might be true, however the media spin is negative where I see nothing but positives. The children were smart enough to not be taken into custody by police who had tricked their mother into going to jail and had sold their property at auction when it appears that the foreclosure, seizure and sale of the property was conducted illegally. It would appear that being suspicious of government is a survival skill that all children should be taught. They are survivors, they are close-knit and they have proven to be more capable than most children who attend public school.

Oooohh, they are survivors. Let's all teach our children to be suspicious of the evil government. And whether home-schooling works or not is entirely dependent on the situation. It is not something that is always good.

The more conspiratorial side of me is concerned that she will be psychologically manipulated into saying things that will compromise public perception of her in a negative way. Which part of you isn't conspiratorial?

It appears that the McGuckins have been under attack for at least four years and the intent was to steal their property. I personally believe the attack was subtle, and conducted with the use of sophisticated technologies that to most people are the stuff of science fiction. They became increasingly reclusive, I think, because nobody would believe them if they told them what was going on and they were afraid that people would think they were crazy.

Seen any chemtrails lately?

Don Harkins is the editor of The Idaho Observer, a monthy tabloid- sized, 24-page newspaper that seeks to report the truth of events that are shaping the socio/political, spiritual and economic demise of our our once free nation.

"Spiritual demise of our once free nation"

Spiritual being a keyword for "too many people don't believe like I believe."

-- (misguidedjust@bit.arentwe), June 04, 2001.

Helen, I don't think anyone is arguing that all abuse allegations are 100% correct 100% of the time. However, the police and child welfare authorities do have a responsibility to check each and every one out. I was listening to the news this morning and it sounded like the two older siblings, who had already left the house, were the ones who had alerted authorities to a potential abuse situation. This makes it a little different than the angry ex-mother-in-law scenario, don't you think?

Marg, I don't think this situation could happen to any of us at any time. In fact, I think this is a rather unique situation.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 04, 2001.

Bonus:

Benjamin had apparently left the house on a recon mission two days previously.

A recon mission? What the hell you think this is, the militia? Puhlease.

-- (.@...), June 04, 2001.

FWIW, I believe it's illegal in most states to let a minor in foster care and/or protective custody "have access" to anyone not directly involved in the case.

I would also like to know on what grounds this guy says the foreclosure, seizure, and sale of the McGuckin property was conducted illegally.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 04, 2001.

As has been amply demonstrated on this thread and on the related thread that Tarzan started, what was originally reported as "fact" has been shown to be false.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 04, 2001.

What, exactly, has been proven false? And how?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 04, 2001.

"There were comments in the news about dog feces being all over the place. Someone needed to do SOMETHING."

Deano

LOL! Rush Limbaugh would have fun with that comment, you sound like a socialist!

Maybe they were afraid to take the dogs for a walk, because of a couple hundred goons outside with guns pointed at them.

-- leave them alone (they did not @ ask. for help), June 04, 2001.

"The same dipshit who wrote this thread headline would be all for the destruction of the 2nd Amendment, seeing as he was a Gore voter.

-- libs are idiots (moreinterpretation@ugly.com), June 04, 2001."

Too bad things don't fit so neatly into your narrow-minded package anymore. That's the whole point of the story dumbshit, Dumbya is going to destroy the 2nd Ammendment! Haven't you learned yet, he always does the opposite of what he says!!

-- (libs are idiots is @ another sucker. for Dumbya), June 04, 2001.

Trust me, I am far from a socialist. I hate government programs and handouts for folks who refuse to help themselves.

HOWEVER

When kids are living in shit (and I'm talking real live doo-doo here Einstein), someone needed to do something. Period.

With however many dogs it was 27 or 15, there was dogshit ALL OVER THE PLACE.

You'd allow your kids to live in that? Got news for ya sport, I wouldn't let your kids live in that shit.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), June 04, 2001.

Tarzan,

I meant to write, "much of what was originally reported as 'fact' has been shown to be false". I was interrupted while composing that post, and it came across as if I believed that everything was false. That being said, from the story that you linked to in your original post on the other thread, "The home lacks power, water, and heat".

Later in the same thread, from an article that Buddy posted, "And Northern Lights, the local power company, said that contrary to previous reports, the house has had electricity throughout the standoff". Therefore the lack of power claim is false.

According to reports, their well pump is broken. Assuming that is true, that means that the home lacks running water at this point in time, but that does not necessarily mean that they have not been able to draw water from the well by hand, or as other reports have stated, that they are unable to draw water from a lake on the property. How long does it take a human to die without water? A week? Using just common sense, it is obvious that they have some source of water, even if it is not the conventional running water that most city folks define as "water". Therefore, the lack of water claim is false.

Lastly, and this is what I first questioned you about in the other thread, even though you never bothered to answer me, the chances of surviving an Idaho winter without heat (Polly's cuddle-with-the-pack-of-dogs Eskimo analogy notwithstanding) are next to nil. You evidently don't believe that they have a woodstove, as reported in the Harkins piece, but common sense says that they have had heat in previous winters. Therefore, the lack of heat claim is false.

Since these major premises are false, I, for one, will not put any faith in the rest of what has been reported, either. I am especially suspicious of the child neglect claim. A false child abuse/neglect accusation is a classic tactic to turn public opinion against someone, for after all, then whatever transpires against the adult "is for the good of the children".

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 04, 2001.

"When kids are living in shit (and I'm talking real live doo-doo here Einstein), someone needed to do something. Period."

Deano, did you forget what country you live in? If people want to live in shit, that is their right. They did not ASK for help! If they ask for help, the gubmint can assist them, but otherwise leave them alone! You are just another whining socialist.

I doubt that there was shit in the house before the Feds came in and trapped them in the house. This was just another lie told to the media to paint the mother as some kind of nut case.

The children kept the dogs inside because there were a couple hundred goons outside that would have shot them. They only let them out when the goons began to approach the house, and there were enough witnesses outside to watch if they fired at them.

Dumbya's facscists should leave people alone unless they ask for help. This whole thing happened because the lady practiced her right to freedom of speech by expressing distrust of Dumbya's gubmint.

-- (these people @ did NOT ASK. for help), June 04, 2001.

Hold on there friend. In this great country of ours, children are protected from living in shit…don’t cha know? Of bigger concern is protecting the rest of society from brain-damaged morons, such as yourself.

-- Telinet (like@it.is), June 04, 2001.

"just another whining socialist" ???????????? huh?

I think I have some lint in my navel with a higher level of intelligence than you, sport.

I'm pretty damned sure there are laws out there that have the children's best interest at heart. Newsflash - living in shit is not in the children's best interest. There is no choice. You find people (children) in deplorable living conditions and someone will do something about it. You don't have to like it.

You seem like the type that would condemn the government for intervening one way or the other. We should have never messed with'em in the 1st place, right? But then when one of the younguns dies of some Godawful infection from sleeping in dogshit, you'll be the 1st to say, "hey, where the hell was Uncle Sam?"

And with that many dogs, how could there not be??? I have 2 big dogs and I'm picking up shit in the backyard all the time!

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), June 04, 2001.

No where during this entire story have I heard of any involvement by any Federal agency. So where do you get the idea that "Dubya's goons" were involved? Also, I don't recall any reports of the house being surrounded by a couple of hundred men either. Where did you get that?

-- (.@...), June 04, 2001.

Later in the same thread, from an article that Buddy posted, "And Northern Lights, the local power company, said that contrary to previous reports, the house has had electricity throughout the standoff". Therefore the lack of power claim is false.

Firstly, I have seen no report that mentions power throughout the standoff. Can you provide a citation? Secondly, power throughout the standoff does not mean that they have had power period. In fact, it could mean quite the opposite, that the family had been equipped for power at one time but had been living off grid, so to speak, and the power company turned the lights on during the siege to avoid a PR problem.

On a side note, it's interesting that you are so skeptical of news reports that make the situation sound dire, but you whole-heartedly believe third-hand news reports that make the situation sound less dire.

According to reports, their well pump is broken.

Again, what reports?

Assuming that is true, that means that the home lacks running water at this point in time, but that does not necessarily mean that they have not been able to draw water from the well by hand, or as other reports have stated, that they are unable to draw water from a lake on the property. How long does it take a human to die without water? A week? Using just common sense, it is obvious that they have some source of water, even if it is not the conventional running water that most city folks define as "water". Therefore, the lack of water claim is false.

To claim that they have a broken water pump proves that they are equipped for water. However, we don't know how long that pump has been broken. Of course, the lake constitutes a source of water. However, I can't imagine that anyone in his or her right mind thinking that hauling water from a reported quarter of a mile away is the equivalent of running water. If they are drinking from a lake they are at risk for all kinds of nasty viruses and parasites. Ever have guardian? I got a case when I was a kid and came close to dying. I have to wonder if any family that is so poor it can't keep the lights on consistently, can't keep its kids fed and can't get the well pump fixed has the money to spend on water purifiers.

Lastly, and this is what I first questioned you about in the other thread, even though you never bothered to answer me, the chances of surviving an Idaho winter without heat (Polly's cuddle-with-the-pack- of-dogs Eskimo analogy notwithstanding) are next to nil.

Sorry, I was out for the weekend and missed your post. I'll do that every so often, miss posts that were directed at me, so please consider this your one and only warning.

:-)

I think it's quite likely they could survive an Idaho winter given enough blankets, enough people, and a small enough room. Neighbors report that they have cook fires outside and have a tent next to it. How, exactly, do you think people survived in the pioneer days?

Since these major premises are false, I, for one, will not put any faith in the rest of what has been reported, either.

To be truthful, you should say, Since I prefer to believe these major premises are false, I, for one, will not put any faith in the rest of the reports which agree with these premises.

I was about to list the premises I believe are false, but since the siege has ended and the net results are a matter for the courts, I'll wait for their findings.

I am especially suspicious of the child neglect claim. A false child abuse/neglect accusation is a classic tactic to turn public opinion against someone, for after all, then whatever transpires against the adult "is for the good of the children".

At least one of the children, Erena, has serious bone deformities that are related to lack of food. Lack of food is also a contributing factor in the father's death, though MS can and does make it extremely difficult to swallow solid food. It's also possible (though I'm conjecturing here) that the family, which lacked funds for food, the father's funeral, property taxes, and maintaining their home, lacked the funds for home schooling materials. Preventing your children from getting an education would be child neglect.

I think the sheriff’s department has done an outstanding job in ending this situation quickly and peacefully. I'm glad to see that the children are being placed together in the home of a family friend who received an emergency foster care license from county child welfare department in an effort to keep them together. Given the way the county authorities have bent over backwards to see to the comfort and safety of the children, I have a big problem believing them to be the boogiemen far right extremists describe.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 04, 2001.

these people, we have a right to live in shit! I can see the picket lines now. Keep the shit in! Don't flush that shit! If we want help, we'll ask... otherwise STAY OUT!

Can you imagine what the people on welfare would say about this. Too funny :)

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), June 04, 2001.

There are a lot of people who owe a lot more in back taxes than these people did, especially among the wealthiest of corporate elite. Dumbya won't go after them because they are his friends. Instead they pick on lower class people who cannot afford to hire a good lawyer.

-- (hypocrisy is the norm @ in. Dumbya's world), June 04, 2001.

Tarzan,

The next time that you take off for the weekend, check in with me first. : )

I don't have the time at the moment to get into a long, involved discussion on this topic, but let it suffice to say that, just as you have trouble believing that which was in the Harkins piece, I have trouble believing that which was in the original piece that you linked to in your original post of the other thread. In all likelihood, it is probable that neither article is completely true, and unfortunately, both are probably that way because of prior agendas.

You and I are both (assuming that your weekend away wasn't a trip to Idaho : ) )relying on second, third, or even further, hand information. Hopefully the whole truth about this situation will come out in the courts.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), June 04, 2001.

hypo, "Instead they pick on lower class people who cannot afford to hire a good lawyer."

LOL good one! Did you read the report that said the property was worth $500K! I'm not sure many "lower" class people have this kind of asset. Though, I'd speculate that this is definitely a LOWER class of people.

["The McGuckin property, which has a homestead exemption and is worth nearly $500,000, was seized for $5,000 in back taxes and sold at auction for $50,000. " I don't know where helen's article stopped and her commentary picked up.]

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), June 04, 2001.

One again Maria illustrates that she will never be capable of an intelligence level higher than a dumb cunt. There was no shit in the house until the goons cornered them inside. If they had left them alone to roam their own property freely as they are entitled to do, everything would have been fine. If the gubmint had given the mother the $42,000 they owed her they would be fine. Instead they chose to take tyrannical hostile actions against them, invading their privacy and ignoring their rights. That is when the problems started.

-- (Dumbya's goons @ are. Nazis), June 04, 2001.

Hey you stupid leftwing anonymous fucker! Some people in this state and others DO live in dog shit because they are too damn lazy to let the dogs out to shit and when you have that many dogs you have a lot of shit. And when they get used to the smell it happens more often than you realize. And the County Sheriffs Dept. and Idaho Health and Welfare handled this case so quit showin stupidity by passen this off to Bush. Jesus H. fucking Chreerist I hate anonymous posters!

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), June 04, 2001.

Boswell your opinion is irrelevant because you like to wade in cowshit.

I am not a left winger, I am a conservative. I believe that people have the right to voice their hatred of government and practice their 2nd ammendment rights without being invaded and thrown in jail. Dumbya's facists are showing extremely socialistic tyrannical tendencies and I don't support that. Soon they will be telling you to clean up your cow shit or they will throw you in jail and take away your guns. I will be out here laughing at you as you cry in your cell!

-- LOL (they'll get @ you. soon!), June 04, 2001.

Hey you stupid leftwing buttranger, if you were a conservative you wouldn't even start on a topic of cleanin up cowshit and making the statement that you think it would be funny if someone confiscated guns. Not only do you hide behind an anonymous but you can't even admit that you are a liberal. Let's start cleanin up your bullshit before you start on my cowshit! You've got my personal telephone number you whiny little fucker so give me a call and we'll see who can aim better and throw shit the farthest

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), June 04, 2001.

I am a true conservative, not a wimpy-ass moderate socialist like you and Dumbya and McCain. I would laugh if they took your guns only because you support the trampling of our constitutional rights by these goons. Post your phone number and I will call you to discuss what a wimp you are, willing to support these invasions until it happens to you.

-- (boswell supports @ trampling. of others), June 04, 2001.

Maria, my commentary was place before the article and in parenthesis. Here it is again so you don't have to scroll up.

(If you believe no parent was ever wrongfully accused of child abuse or neglect, you must also believe that no cop ever falisified evidence and that no prosecutor ever withheld evidence in favor of the accused and that no person ever served time for a crime he didn't commit.)

Maria, may you live to be very, very old.

-- helen (b@n.m), June 04, 2001.

My number has been posted at least twice in the past 60 days by another anonymous idiot like yourself. Look it up cause you seem to have alot of free time to tap out your shit on the key board. You ain't no conservative! And you don't know Jack shit about Idaho! I'm goin to remind you of one thing and don't you ever forget it. President Bush IS YOUR PRESIDENT and will continue to be YOUR PRESIDENT untill someone else is elected or you decide to move to another country. Untill then get used to this fact. Conservative my ass!

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), June 04, 2001.

I guess that stupid fucking repug Boswell doesn't want the anonymous poster to be a conservative. Funny how he insists that the anonymous poster be a liberal so he can rant his fucking repug ass off. God what a bunch of morons. I can just see the spittle shooting from Boswell's mouth! bwaaaahaaaa bwaaaahaaaa. Careful Bos, you might break a key on your keyboard!

-- Tony Baloney (Fuck the@repugs.com), June 04, 2001.

"Too bad things don't fit so neatly into your narrow-minded package anymore. That's the whole point of the story dumbshit, Dumbya is going to destroy the 2nd Ammendment! Haven't you learned yet, he always does the opposite of what he says"

You still voted for Gore, but that's another story. Facts are this is not a federal issue as the ATF and FBI did not show up en masse ala Waco and Ruby Ridge. These cases need to be handled by local authorities, and the feds need to keep their noses out of it, including Bush. Last I looked the Attorney General supported the 2nd Amendment and the individual's rights in that respect, unlike Gore who stated that the individual right to own guns did not exist, dipshit. In fact, Clinton sent his goon squad AG lawyers in to argue that the 2nd Amendment only applied as a government right. If Bush follows the same tack, then I'll piss on him, but until then you are just another Gore socialist gun-grabbing Nazi.

-- libs are idiots (moreinterpretation@ugly.com), June 05, 2001.

Hey there Tony Baloney, you pencil dick, why don't you bend way way over grab hold of that thing with your teeth and tug real hard and before it snaps back to its original miniature length, bend it back between your legs, take careful aim and go fuck yourself!

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), June 05, 2001.

Sounds like you've got that technique mastered there Boswell!

That's undoubtedly what you do to yourself when your bulls get sick of fucking your ugly ass.

-- (Boswell bops @ his. baloney), June 06, 2001.

Actually I copied that out of my Uncle Vernon's liberal left handbook on How To Fuck Yourself Without Even Knowing It. I thought that little piece might interest you!

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), June 06, 2001.

Randy Weaver is about to be vindicated.

-- davey12 (davey12@thistlerspointcove.com), June 06, 2001.