Did I do a murder?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Unk's Wild Wild West : One Thread

This morning I was rinsing a few dishes in my stylishly appointed kitchen. From the corner of my eye I saw a spider scamper across my counter. The nerve, my counter! Instinctively I smote him flat. Guts galore.

Then, without remorse, I thought "hmmm, I just killed a living creature, unnecessarily". Well, maybe he was a brown recluse and represented a clear and present danger. But probably he was just a house spider dining on some of my many crumbs. And wait, maybe he was not a he at all. Maybe this was a female filled with eggs which might mean I am an abortionist. Or maybe this spider had just eaten a harmless gnat that it had caught in its cowardly web. In which case, the spider was murderer and I was an executioner, administering justice for the gnat and the gnat's loved ones.

Most of us agree that, in general, kiling human beings is wrong. I said in general since there are so many disagreements on the specifics--ie, abortion, capital punishment, "just" war, self-defense, family-defense, etc.

But what about killing animals? Do we limit our tender mercies to those animals that are like us (mammals). Are we only concerned about "cute" mammals or is it wrong to kill rats? What about life forms that depart even further from what we find appealing? (snakes, reptiles, fish, birds, spiders). Do these critters have souls? Does God love the creepy-crawlie things as He loves us (if He does love us).

Is there anyone here, including Cin, that would not kill another living creature if you or your family were starving?

Excuse me, gotta go set my mouse traps.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), May 10, 2001

Answers

You did the right thing Lars.

INSIDE the house, the only good spider is a dead spider.

Did I mention that I HATE SPIDERS?!?! 8 legs is WAY too many....

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), May 10, 2001.


I leave spiders alone. They eat flies, mosquitos, and all the little no-see-ums that plague the south each summer. Anything that kills something that wants to suck my blood deserves to live, IMO.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), May 10, 2001.

I have mixed feelings on this one, Lars. I remember once living in an apartment with a spider that I'd named Henry. If I wiped my hands on a kitchen towel, I'd find Henry. If I practiced guitar, I'd find Henry walking across my music sheets. One day, Henry walked out of the apartment [under the door] and I never saw him again.

THESE days, my love or fear is based more on who gets in my face and when. I live in Texas, ya know. Fire-ants can be REALLY fierce and spiders can get REALLY big. The "critters" are at the mercy of my moods. For the most, I leave them alone [especially those that can run faster than I]. If a big guy hangs down from a thread and presents himself in my FACE, I smash him.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 10, 2001.


Anita--

How do you know that Henry is not Henrietta?

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), May 10, 2001.


I hate to kill anything.

Except possibly mosquitoes, which I always kill.

I don't ever have the urge to kill spiders. Even a black widow I'll take outside the house individually and put him at the far end of the yard. Spiders just don't seem that much of a threat to me and as Tar says they are beneficial to us (mostly). I somehow keep that in mind.

But when the ants start to invade the kitchen, as they seem to try every few weeks, I go into "holocaust" mode.

It's funny, I feel much worse killing one individual ant, than when I kill thousands of ants in one fell swoop.

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), May 10, 2001.



Debbie--

I do believe you've hit on something. It's harder (emotionally) to kill one creature up close and personal than it is to kill many from a remote distance with the push of a button.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), May 10, 2001.


For heavens sake

stick your finger up your ass

knock those gonads back down into their sack

and be a man!

This touchy feely shit has gone far enough.

-- murder? (grow@up.!), May 10, 2001.


I once spared a cricket that fought so valiantly for its life that it was the only right thing to do. It was silent the rest of the night however.

-- Life is Sacred (except@for.fleas.flies.and.mosquitos), May 10, 2001.

Little Miss Muffet

Little Miss Muffet sat on a tuffet,

Eating her curds and whey.

Along came a spider,

He sat down beside her.

and fucked her

----THE END----

MORE RHYMES

For Little Miss Muffet sequencing cards to print out, click here.

Go to a simple spider craft for children.

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-- (arachnid@web.master), May 10, 2001.


Lars,

I don't kill spiders. I figure they are much more efficient killers than myself. King snakes, gopher & garter snakes are keen with me for the same reason.

I do have a problem with murderous 'housecats' roaming the outdoors & appreciated the article you posted the other day about the subject.

-- flora (***@__._), May 10, 2001.



Lars, I'm just not that deep, I guess. I don't go out of my way to kill anything that's not bothering me. I figure that's nature's way. But once I do make up my mind to get something out of my way, sometimes I'll kill it, sometimes grab it and toss it outdoors. depends on my mood and which way is easier.

Killing is just as natural as dying and more agreeable, too, when you come right down to it. The part about who has souls and who doesn't, I can't answer. If someone says they can answer that one, I'm inclined to don't believe them. I do know all us creatures have to die, souls or not. I might hurry the process up for some spider or ant, but some damn virus might do me the same favor one of these fine days. Would it feel remorse, you think?

-- Miserable SOB (misery@misery.com), May 10, 2001.


SOB,

If there's any truth to the story that when asked what he'd like to be reincarnated as, Prince Philip remarked something to the effect that he'd love to come back as a virus that would wipe out mankind - then the answer to your question might well be no.

-- flora (***@__._), May 10, 2001.


Could you even survive if you decided not to kill? You couldn't walk anywhere as you might step on an unseen life form and kill it. You couldn't drive anywhere as you might end up with flies on the windshield. Death is everywhere. For me, if a spider is in the house then it is killed. War was declared on spiders because spiders will bite without provocation. I also kill June bugs but you have to be careful because they are full of mushy yellow guts and it could get on your shoes. Hey, repugs are kind of like June bugs - loud, ugly, in your face, full of pus...

-- Tony Baloney (Fuck the@repugs.com), May 10, 2001.

Humans are natural born killers.

-- (killing@is.instinctive), May 10, 2001.

KIN-

Well so is every other carnivore a natural born killer. And some of them do it for fun too (like cats).

My query was tongue in chic but also semi-serious---at what level of life does killing become a serious moral issue? Why?

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), May 10, 2001.



It doesn't seem smart to me to peg this to how complicated the creature is that you kill whether it is moral to kill it or not. There is even a time to kill fluffy bunnies - it is when you are hungry. You have to kill to live and that's no lie. It seems best not to kill any more than that. Beyond that kind of general rule, I start to meet the level of my ignorance.

-- Miserable SOB (misery@misery.com), May 10, 2001.

Lars,

I'll take a shot that for most, the morality of killing lies squarely with the intent behind it. Sadly, good intentions don't always coincide with good information.

-- flora (***@__._), May 10, 2001.


Flora--

My intent was visceral. Without thinking, I wanted to squash this creepy thing that was dissing my digs.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), May 11, 2001.


Ah, so -

The reptile or primitve part of your brain holds a different morality when it comes to mortality, eh?

-- flora (***@__._), May 11, 2001.


Forgive me, Lars, as I slip sightly off-trail here to draw your attention to an LA Times piece from today's issue. A take on justice & revenge, it somehow became intertwingled in my head with this particular thread:

http://www.latimes.com/living/lat_revenge010511.htm

A Dish Best Served Cold

A killer's planned execution raises the specter of revenge, an all- too-human tendency rooted in millions of years of evolution. If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?

--"The Merchant of Venice" by William Shakespeare

-- flora (***@__._), May 11, 2001.


Lars, I feel no desire to squash or kill anything. I have no problems sharing my home with daddy-longlegs spiders. Any critters that I don't want inside, I catch in a jar or something and take out to the garden or grass outside. I think the hardest ones to keep out are ants. Boy they are tenacious little buggers. If anyone knows a way to keep them out during ant season, please share.

-- (cin@cin.cin), May 11, 2001.

"If anyone knows a way to keep them out during ant season, please share."

Clean out your trailer once in a while.

-- (ants love @ trailer. trash), May 11, 2001.


This is getting DEEP. Flora, were you suggesting that revenge was the reason why folks kill critters? I see it more as fear, either fear of the critter or fear of being overrun by the critters. Numbers play a huge role, IMO. For instance, 1-XX spiders in a house play a beneficial role, IMO. Once one exceeds XX, one finds a web in every crook, cranny of the house and dust falls on the webs and pretty soon one's home looks like an attic from a horror movie. Spiders ALSO aren't known for burying their prey, so the webs soon fill with dead bodies. If we vacuum the webs are we destroying their homes? If we relocate a house spider to the outdoors, are we subjecting him/her to a hostile environment?

Ants are similar, although they vary in their intent. It's the ONE ant that is important to kill or relocate, IMO, because he's the scout that reports back to the rest of favorable/unfavorable conditions.

About once/year, we see spiders run out from under the TV platform. The platform is one of those "swivel" deals that only has enough room for maybe a thin yardstick between the platform and the "swivel." We figure these are the young'ns that come out and I'm not willing to try and draw out the mom if the size of the young'ns means she's bigger.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 11, 2001.


You know, troll...I truly feel sorry for you. You must have had a really shitty life

So sad

-- (cin@cin.cin), May 11, 2001.


Flora--

Good link. A separate thread on justice vs revenge might be appropriate with McVeigh as the starting point.

As I understand it, McVeigh's twisted motivation for his atrocity was revenge against the government for their atrocity at Waco. IMO, the execution of McVeigh would be justice, not revenge. I can't speak for the families of those who died. If Reno had personally lit the fire at Waco, I would say that justice would be served by her execution. Since she is only indirectly responsible, maybe justice would be served by banishing her to Chappaqua.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), May 11, 2001.


Wow! Some of yall are just a bit overly compassionate, IMO. Relocating ants? NOT! Poison'em I say!!!

Bugs, of any kind, are not welcome inside my home. They cross that part of the property and they die. IF the annual pest control doesn't do them in, the bottom of my shoe will.

Did I mention I hate spiders??

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), May 11, 2001.


Deano...why do you hate spiders? Because you are afraid of them or you think they are ugly and they therefore deserve to die?

-- (cin@cin.cin), May 11, 2001.

Two lives ago, I was a bad person. My karma was to return as a spider. This was in India. A mean wittle kid squooshed me just for fun. My karma was to come back as Mother Theresa. Go figure.

-- (Maharishi@grungy.Ganges), May 11, 2001.

'Nita -

Lars' term 'visceral' is what fired off the thought for me. It's an interesting topic. Earlier in the thread I was thinking more along my usual lines of interpretation & information, which is easier to do when discussing a critter or creature {- some 'other'}. The twist of morality & mortality does belong here though, because there is a fine line within everyone. I don't know about being too compassionate, Deano. Though I've had a life-long death penalty hating friend {who used to torture snails when we were kids - awful!}, I've always been a hang 'em high kinda gal. In fact, long ago, I used to think we should let victims' family members administer their 'justice'. Yipes.

-- flora (***@__._), May 11, 2001.


cin

I guess you could say I am somewhat afraid of spiders. You could definitely say I do not want them (or any other bugs for that matter) in my home. Are they ugly? - yeah, in kind of a cool looking way.

I only kill them when they get inside. We've got the huge banana spiders stretched out through some of the trees in the back. Some of the webs are 8-10 feet across and beautiful works of art! I don't mess with'em unless they come inside the home. Then the rules change....

I saw a show on Discovery not too long ago about all the black widows in Arizona (or maybe Nevada). They were saying that black widows outnumbered the people of that state almost 10-1!!

Now THAT'S scary!!

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), May 11, 2001.


I kill cats that climb into my Corvette. Little suckers spray a foul scent in there that I can't get out and I hate the little fuckers. It is illegal to shoot within city limits here so I have to whack them with a baseball bat and I hate getting crap all over me. I wish people would be more responsible pet owners.

-- PFTRTOP (People@for the responsibile. treatment of people), May 11, 2001.

Chappaqua, huh. You just don't give up, do ya?!

Savage.

-- flora (***@__._), May 11, 2001.


I like your way of thinkin' flora!

I was referring to all the compassion for 'bugs' in this thread. I mean, they're BUGS for Christ's sake!

And yes, I saw Starship Troopers (and loved it!) Now those were some badass bugs!

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), May 11, 2001.


Deano,

Wherever there is a bug thread, you'll usually find Aunt'Nita & flora. Now I hate burst your bubble, but 'bugs' are sucking insects. Most of the things we call 'bugs' aren't. About the black widows: I used to smash what looked like black widows when I found them in the house. That was until my son had a wild science teacher, who was an absolute spider freak. I trapped one of the bulbous, fiendish-looking thingies in a jar to have him properly identify it. He told me 'these are the guys that EAT the black widows!'. No more squashing, in fact I stopped with most spider species after my kidlet began naming the daddy long-legs after himself. After that, most just got an exciting ride to the big outdoors in a bucket. When you stop squooshing them, you'll be amazed at the variety that will come across your path.

Now, to hear my sister tell it, you've got some major BUGS down in the south - so your mileage may vary.

-- flora (***@__._), May 11, 2001.


Deano: I haven't seen any roaches since we've been in this house, but our first apartment in Texas had BOTH German cockroaches AND what we call here in Texas TREE ROACHES. The tree roaches came in through the fireplace in that first apartment, and the kids and I spent about an hour chasing them and smashing them. I believe you call them Palmetto Bugs in Florida.

I moved to another apartment [a really nice place on a pond with trees and a nice patio in the back where I could enjoy watching the ducks and all the wildlife.] Most apartments in Texas worth their salt have monthly exterminations. I talked to the exterminator on one visit about the tree roaches that had invaded my kitchen. He explained to me that I didn't have an infestation. Tree roaches MUST go back outside in order to survive, so I was seeing the same critters every day and they went out and in at their will. My kitchen was the closest room off the back [and the pond.]

One evening after work I scrubbed the hell out of that kitchen and laid a coat of wax on EVERYTHING. The next morning, I came downstairs. My kitchen was beautiful, and there wasn't a tree roach in sight. I opened the refrigerator door and watched the movie that plays inside refrigerators while folks think about what they want for breakfast. My hand was still on the handle of the refrigerator door, and I felt this fast "tingling" inside. I pulled away my hand and there was a tree roach IN my hand. I threw my hand out to get him off me, and he tried like hell to run across the floor to hide under the washer/dryer. I started laughing so hard that I couldn't even step on him. Did you ever see a dog try to run on a waxed floor? The back legs can't get any traction. This guy was having the same problem. His back legs were flying up and he was so scared he didn't know WHAT to do. He FINALLY made it under the washer/dryer, but I'd laughed myself to tears by that point and actually HOPED he'd make it.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), May 11, 2001.


PFTRTOP,

My guess is that animals don't like you very much. They have this unique sense about people. Like they can see inside your heart.

Believe it

-- (cin@cin.cin), May 11, 2001.


Yall don't even wanna get me started on roaches....I had an old apt years ago that had the lil' German guys running around. I set off a couple of Raid bombs and went to work one night(3-11 shift), when I came home, OH MY GOD!!! I swept up a PILE of the nasty things!! When my lease expired, I moved!!

Palmetto bugs are in a category all by themselves. Loaded with armor and teeth (I think). I tend to run from them if they corner me. Careful on the smashing though - they'll put out a fairly pungent odor when smooshed.

Human nature is funny - if a fly (one of the nastiest creatures on the planet) lands on your sandwich, you just swoosh it away and go about eating your sandwich. If a roach (supposedly one of the cleanest creatures on the planet) runs across your sandwich, the sandwich ends up in the trash. Interesting I think.......

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), May 11, 2001.


What the hell difference does it make if the little fuckers like me or not? What difference does it make to you? Are you one of those dumbfucks that let your cats out without supervision? Ya'd better look for em to get offed by some one like me some day. People have rights over animals.

-- (People@for the ethical. treatment of .people), May 11, 2001.

We should have guessed that you drive a corvette.

Corvette = midlife-crisis-mobile for guys without balls

Steer clear at all costs. LOL

-- yep (yep@yep.yep), May 11, 2001.


PS

Try rolling up your windows

dumbass

-- yep (yep@yep.yep), May 11, 2001.


Cin, If anyone knows a way to keep them out during ant season, please share.

Invite Flint over. Locate the anthill, then ....

Er seriously ...,

Have your tried essential oils? (aromatherapy oils). For us, this is finally something that actually works, after years of trying with other methods like soap or vinegar solutions (no staying power) or black or cayenne pepper or garlic (messy and doesn't last that long).

Peppermint or eucalyptus work well . Mix into a carrier oil and paint all around wherever they are entering the house. Watch where the chemical trails have been established. Then create barriers with the oil, to head 'em off at the pass.

The first time I did this, I used the oil straight, but WOW it is very aromatic. Dilution seems to work just as well, oh 30 drops of the peppermint oil, to a tablespoon. Don't use water to dilute since oil and water don't mix.

The oil thing just sounds messy. Actually it is invisible, and it doesn't get dirty.

You just have to be vigilant for new invasions starting. When you have to repeat, it'll be when they've found a new place to come in, or a hole in your previous barrier. The barriers really do last a long time, those oils are powerful stuff. Nice thing of course is it does what I want - just keeps them OUT. There is no killing, after I kill the ones that already got in.

Deano, this seems more efficient than poison IMO. The ants eliminate themselves from the house, I just watch them do it. Once the barriers are in place, you'll see them try to come in, then turn around and leave. Nyuck nyuck! Much more satisfying don't you think? Course don't get me started on cockroaches either....ah, memories. Thank goodness there aren't any in this house.

If a roach (supposedly one of the cleanest creatures on the planet) runs across your sandwich, the sandwich ends up in the trash. Interesting I think....... So true. Cleanest creatures? Interesting, coulda fooled me! Something about the way they look seems to stir some kind of primal loathing. Very curious indeed. I've heard their adaptability is phenomenal, and there are some that feed on electrical insulation (don't know if this is one of those urban legends). They'll probably outlast us by a few zillion millennia.

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), May 11, 2001.


Deano:

I haven't lived in Florida but I take it that roaches are a problem. One of my students [now graduated] was working on a natural products problem. His biggest problem was roaches. At any point in the purification his prep. attracted the things. They would chew through parafilm and heavier plastic to get to whatever was in his prep [you can imagine his response when he came into the lab and found his 500 ml round bottom flask filled with dead roaches]. He finally had to lock his samples in a sealed case under vacuum to protect them. I mentioned it in an offhand manner at a national meeting. In the next week, I got at least 20 calls from companies in Florida who wanted to know more.

Unfortunately, I have bigger brush fires to fight.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), May 11, 2001.


Z,

Opposite problem: An old friend was an Ornithologist at Cal. He told me about a condor carcass that was put in a tank with dermestid beetles, in order to clean the skeleton. The odd thing about this particular bird was that the beetles scrambled as far away from it as they could. What do you suppose this scavenger could have consumed that would have made it so repulsive?

-- flora (***@__._), May 11, 2001.


A spider that qualifies for justifiable homicide, especially if you have kids----

http://www.ag.ohio-state.edu/~ohioline/hyg-fact/2000/2061.html"> The Brown Recluse

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), May 11, 2001.


The Brown Recluse

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), May 11, 2001.

Thanks Debbie for the great advice. I think I have some of those oils around here somewhere

I wonder if tea tree oil would work also

thanks again =)

-- (cin@cin.cin), May 11, 2001.


Cin -

In my enthusiasm I forgot that you have cats. As you probably know, you shouldn't ever use the oil undiluted.

Forget where I mentioned that at first I applied the oil undiluted to door jambs.... Yes I did and it was dumb of me, having a cat in the house ... since the cat can walk through it and then groom his paws and ingest it. (No harm came of it luckily.)

You probably understand this caution, but I just don't want to put this information out there, only to have someone who's reading this misunderstand it, and regret the consequences. (I wish these oils were better labeled in the health food store, but they're sometimes not. People actually think cuz it's "natural" it's safe and they can apply them topically with abandon, right out of the bottle, like for skin treatments. Yeesh!)

More info: Essential Oils and Cats http://www.holisticat.com/essoils_arch.html

I've not tried tee trea oil for ant control so I can't say, but there are some cautions about it in that link.

* * *

LARS! Thread drift AGAIN. Mea culpa, mea culpa. ;-)

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), May 12, 2001.


Cin,

I wasn't kidding. Ants can smell food a mile away, especially sugar. Scrub all the food goo off your floors and mop them with bleach real good. If there isn't anything for them to eat, the ants will vacate the premises and spread the message to all their friends that there isn't any picnics happening. They will look for another slob and have a picnic at his house.

-- clean is a good thing (ants love @ trailer. trash), May 12, 2001.


Dear 'clean is good', I don't think ants spread the word that there AREN'T picnics happening. ;-) Around here, hope springs eternal with them.

They arrive in waves, on some kind of schedule known only to them. For a few weeks they're not there and then one day, bang, they show up. Food or no food. Floors well mopped.

If there's nothing to get, they leave.

If there is even ONE juicy crumb to get, it's all over. Say I'm at work when this starts so I don't notice it happening. By the time I get back, they'll be there by the thousands. They figure if there is a crumb on the floor then it must mean they'll find more on the shelves,etc. etc. They won't get done until they've checked out the whole kitchen just about. Even if there is nothing else to get, they sure take their time figuring this out. I don't have the patience and just wipe them out. But chances are pretty good they will find one more crumb or some damn thing. One day I found they had established a whole new route in and over across the ceiling to the top shelf of the cabinet where they'd found a dead cricket to feast on. So if I can keep them from even coming in the house at all, I figure that's 90% of the battle. YMMV but works for me.

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), May 12, 2001.


YMMV?

-- (hmmm@what's.that), May 12, 2001.

**Especially during the summer ants flock to any source of water without there necessarily being food around.**

They come in looking for water and they also love cat food.

-- (yep@yep.yep), May 12, 2001.


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