For Buddy: Comments by a physicist/astronaut on "hearing voices"

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Excepted from the above document written by former astronaut Edgar Mitchell:

"In a little know report (Krichevskii, 1996), records the experiences of two Russian cosmonauts living aboard the Mir spacecraft for six months. Their concerns about official reaction to the experience requires their anonymity. I cite the report in this paper because the quantum hologram (discussed in several papers at this conference) offers a valid explanation for the unusual experiences of the cosmonauts. They each, but not simultaneously, experienced dream and waking states featuring extraordinary perceptions. They also experienced distorted time perception during these events. The cosmonauts frequently perceived themselves as other creatures on Earth, including dinosaurs, other humans and extraterrestrials. They discussed these experiences in great detail, including hearing voices, instructions and precognitive predictions about their spacecraft's future problems, which were all subsequently fulfilled. They experienced these events as though the information originated outside themselves. With good reason they could not report these events to their controllers nor to the medical monitors for fear of mental disqualification and loss of flight status. Only the quantum hologram permits a framework to explain these events within the context of science, without resorting to hallucination and mental dysfunction."

Look around Buddy. There may be something new under the sun.

-- (@ .), May 02, 2001

Answers

Iona?

-- (Paracelsus@Pb.Au), May 02, 2001.

Mission Statement of the National Institute for Discovery Science

The National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS) is a privately funded, private sector research organization focusing on empirical and hypothesis-based scientific exploration of aerial phenomena that expand conventional knowledge. NIDS is particularly interested in phenomena that appear to be under intelligent guidance and in the possible habitation of space by intelligent life. The NIDS mission is threefold:

NIDS employs scientific and forensics methods while maintaining the highest ethical and quality standards. A Science Advisory Board comprised of internationally recognized experts in aeronautics, biology, biochemistry, engineering, forensics, mathematics, medicine, physics, statistics, and psychology assists our staff. Dissemination of our research and other findings occurs through publication in scientific journals, written materials, the NIDS web site, and other appropriate media. NIDS engages in collaborative relationships with individuals and organizations, nationally and internationally, that research the same subjects.

 

From their home page: The National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS) is a privately funded science institute engaged in research of UFOs and related anomalous phenomena. We would like to receive all reports of significant close encounter sightings or unusual activities that are sent to you or your organization from witnesses within your area or local community. We use a combination of high quality ex-law enforcement investigative teams with contract research involving nationally accredited laboratories in the veterinary, biological, chemical, and materials sciences to research anomalous phenomena. So, in essence, they chase UFO sightings and explore paranormal phenomena. Big deal. The paper you cited does not appear to have been peer-reviewed. So what? It's interesting that there are whole organizations investigating stuff like this. But it proves nothing about the "Goddess Venus" or the existence of 144th dimensional beings or Illuminati. Dream on.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), May 03, 2001.

Oops, what I wrote got mixed in to their text.

So, in essence, they chase UFO sightings and explore paranormal phenomena. Big deal. The paper you cited does not appear to have been peer-reviewed. So what? It's interesting that there are whole organizations investigating stuff like this. But it proves nothing about the "Goddess Venus" or the existence of 144th dimensional beings or Illuminati. Dream on.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), May 03, 2001.


The cosmonauts frequently perceived themselves as other creatures on Earth, including dinosaurs, other humans and extraterrestrials.

I wonder if the National Institute for Discovery Science investigated how many cases of Stoli those cosmonauts had stowed aboard Mir?

-- CD (costavike@hotmail.com), May 03, 2001.


Apparently CD and Buddy aren't familar with Edgar Mitchell. Here's some quotes from Albert Einstein. Do you remember him?

"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as judge in the field of truth and knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the Gods."

"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the "Universe," a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed."

"We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality."

-- (@ .), May 03, 2001.



There is no proof of anything in those quotes. They are just thoughts.

Without proof you're living in la la land.

La la land ---> a nice place to be, but someday you'll have to understand that real life exists outside your mind.

-- (Just@checking.in), May 03, 2001.


Apparently Mr. or Ms. Anonymous here (Iona ?) thinks that just because I scoff at "Goddess Venus" and "Illuminati" that I don't recognize the possibility that such things can exist. Of course they can.

It's one thing to claim wierd experiences have happened to you. It is quite another to claim that you are in contact with a being named "Goddess Venus" of the 144th dimension or that Carl Sagan was an Illuminati or that David Icke (who is quite disturbed from what I've seen) is one too.

It's also quite possible that a former astronaut with a Ph.D. after his name is quite as insane as you are.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), May 03, 2001.


First of all Bud, I'm not "Iona". Second, these quotes are from very famous physicists and astronauts, not me.

So, is your belief system more sound than those who walked on the moon or discovered E=mc^2?

-- (@ .), May 03, 2001.


Correction, @. Since the astronauts are anonymous, they are not "very famous". Secondly, they could not have walked on the moon, since the Russians have never been able to put a man on the moon.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), May 03, 2001.

I wonder if the National Institute for Discovery Science investigated how many cases of Stoli those cosmonauts had stowed aboard Mir?

-- CD (costavike@hotmail.com),

CD, I was laughing so hard I literally choked on ice when I read your above response.....still laughing.

ummmmmm, stoli.

-- sumer (shh@aol.con), May 03, 2001.



So, is your belief system more sound than those who walked on the moon or discovered E=mc^2?

You are trying to bust Buddy's chops on the wrong charge. If I read him correctly, he is specifically saying that his belief system does allow for the possibility of such things as this article speaks of. What Buddy appears to be saying is that Iona is claiming to have resolved these myriad possibilities into specific and detailed knowledge that includes 144th degree goddess beings and fifth dimension Illuminati (some of whom she specifically names) and he does not accept those very specific claims as valid without more evidence to back them up.

He has a point. After all, this quote by Mr. Einstein that you suppplied:

"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as judge in the field of truth and knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the Gods."

That would seem to apply equally well to Iona. She, too, makes categorical claims "in the field of truth and knowledge". Only her truth is rather harder to verify, since it is conspicuously occult in nature.

Iona wants to claim her doubters lack an open mind, but an open mind requires a willingness to maintain one's doubts, not to abandon them in a rush to believe. Thus, to question Iona closely and to examine her claims comprehensively is a sign of an open mind, not a closed one. When one's questions have been answered and one's doubts have been satisfied is the time to come to a conclusion. Not sooner.

If Iona doesn't like to be questioned (and that includes having her sanity questioned), then she is following the wrong path. Being a mouthpiece for a new god or goddess has always been uncomfortable work, I hear. Lousy pay, rotten hours, a fierce boss and all the ridicule you can eat.

But, still and all, THAT MUST BE. I don't know about you, but I'm not throwing over my old god to gadding after a new one just because Iona waggles her finger and says come. If Goddess Venus wants more believers, Iona is going to have to work her butt off.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), May 03, 2001.


Hey LN-

Isn't "conspicuously occult" a contradiction in terms?

:-)

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), May 03, 2001.


I have read the text at the link given more carefully. I see nothing in what is written that conflicts with my "belief system. I see nothing in the essay which supports the existence of a "Goddess Venus" or the Illuminati. The quoted paragraph merely states that the cosmonauts had unusual experiences which can only be explained in three possible ways: the quantum hologram, hallucination, or mental dysfunction.

If I am understanding the concept of quantum holography correctly, this is a theory which says that all objects have a quantum hologram which our brains perceive and process so that we can see them. The author theorizes that it may be possible to perceive a quantum hologram of an object from somewhere far away from that object. Nice theory. It may be true.

This author's discussion only offers the opinion that it is possible that "extra-sensory perception" is really perception of quantum holograms. It is quite a stretch however to use this as proof that such a quantum hologram would manifest itself as a "Goddess Venus." And it still doesn't explain the existence of the so-called "Illuminati."

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), May 03, 2001.


Thank you there Lil Nipper. Couldn't have said it better myself.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), May 03, 2001.

Liquids form spherical shapes inside of weightless space vehicles. I wonder if there are changes in the blood stream that would induce neurological effects in conditions of prolonged weightlessness?

-- helen (hmm@ah.oh), May 03, 2001.


Belief in a universe of law - and faith that the truth can be found - is the essence of both science and mythology.

The point I was trying to make, Buddy, is that if Iona wants to call her experience "Goddess Venus", and the physicists want to call their experience "Quantum Hologram", the difference is one of syntax, not and not substance. Neither is patently true or patently false.

-- (@ .), May 03, 2001.


[The point is] if Iona wants to call her experience "Goddess Venus", and the physicists want to call their experience "Quantum Hologram", the difference is one of syntax, not and not substance.

Weak point. This assumes an identity between the terms that has not been established. You could assume that when I speak of "cabbage" it is the same thing that you experience as "pistachio ice cream", because both are green and are eaten. But you would be wrong.

Side note: The article quoted above calls this out in bold type - "including hearing voices, instructions and precognitive predictions". Iona, in the other thread that she started on the movie Contact, explicitly stated (paraphrasing her here cuz I am too lazy to switch threads) 'Telepathic communication is nothing like hearing voices.' For the correct quote, go look at that thread.

It would seem that by Iona's own insistant testimony, what these cosmonauts experienced is not identical to what she experiences. I can only conclude that if the cosmonauts experienced quantum holograms, then Iona does not.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), May 03, 2001.


All things are possible. If Iona believes she is in contact with the "Goddess Venus" then go for it. I suspect it is all a put on in order to bring attention to something else. Book sales maybe?

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), May 04, 2001.

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