Dave Belanger has revised the statement which appears prior to anyone starting a new thread. Please read it when you have a chance. At the top of the forum page, just click on Ask a Question. The same guidelines apply to posts against existing threads.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), May 01, 2001

Answers

Well, I guess at least now we know where we stand. I'm wondering to myself how ya'll are able to ferret out everything "political" or "religious" from homesteading? (Lots of political and religious issues do indeed effect my homestead.) And how did you justify the pro and con letters in the recent magazine regarding how many children we should be having? Is that not religious or political? Also, does this mean we won't be seeing hoot anymore? Back when I first started on this forum, you were "honoring" him with his own thread. Now I wonder if you were just putting religion in a slot. BTW, I know this will be immediately deleted, but I'm glad I said it anyway.

-- mary, texas (marylgarcia@aol.com), May 01, 2001.

Mary:

I rather think you are over reacting. It doesn't say "all" threads on certain subjects will be deleted, just that certain categories are subject to closer review. If they reasonably fit into the Countryside homesteading philosophy, then likely they will stay. If they stray off into left field, such as a thread on the Trilateral Commission or the UN taking over the world, or become an attack rather than a discussion, then those are likely to be deleted as not relevant to the philosophy of the forum. All are judgement calls, and you probably make a dozen or more judgement calls a day.

I went through the last several issues of Countryside and cannot find any discussion on how many children a family should have. There are threads on the forum about it though.

On Hoot's threads, I don't have a problem with them, nor do I think Dave does. His religious philosophy is interwoven with his country living philosophy.

If you are familiar with statistics, you know about bell-shaped curves. Probably 90% of thread and post fall within that one standard deviation of the norm. When they fall outside of it, then they may or may not be deleted. Judgement remains with the forum moderators.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), May 01, 2001.

I think it's time for a new forum.

-- Rebekah Leaf (daniel1@itss.net), May 01, 2001.

Boy oh boy , I spent hours reading about politics,and religion. Do you not believe I life as we know it could be at stake, farming and homesteading, We need to stay informed, and what better way but by really down to earth dirt digging , who work our butts off, growing things people. Lord knows the regular news people are not going to tell us what is going on. We are able to weed out, what is no good. and as for religion, good grief, why can"t nobody talk about religion any more. I"ll bet 90 percent of the down to earth people out there are christian. This is a nation under God the last time I looked, but if we keep weeding out talking about it won"t be for long. I"m new to the forum, but I love all parts of it. And I hope you will reconsider please. thank you Irene

-- Irene Orsborn (tkorsborn@cs.com), May 01, 2001.

I try to stick to the point of this forum by posting about ducks, gardening, permaculture and so forth, but occaisionally also find that items from the big world outside my one acre could have significant impact on having the choice to homestead. For example, there is an important discussion going on now about how the areas affected by hoof and mouth disease in Britain also are the areas that certain new-ager re-wilding groups want denuded of animals and farms so that the 'natural' landscape can grow back. Now, these farmers impacted by hoof and mouth and potential loss of their farms are often small holders, very similar to homesteaders. This is a subject worth pursuing, because what happens there could happen here. The so- called new world order conspiracies could very well impact us if they are really trying to do this. Got a cow? Any hoofed animal? Look out!

-- seraphima (djones@kodiak.alaska.edu), May 01, 2001.

Seraphima, have you noticed that the very "interesting" issue you mentioned is the one deleted, setting off this whole exchange? Anyway, how come we can talk about FMD as long as we agree with Ken, but not if we don't?

-- mary, texas (marylgarcia@aol.com), May 01, 2001.

Well there is another forum that some people including Hoot post on, you'll have to cut and paste the address as I don't know how to make a link. http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Freedom%21% 20self%20reliance Daryll

-- Daryll (twincrk@hotmail.com), May 01, 2001.

I for one am very happy for the changes. We find we enjoy the forum less and less as the bickering and preaching has increased. This is a nation of many faiths not simply one. I also don't believe that 90% off all homesteaders share the same faith. That has certainly not been my experience.

It seems that Dave carefully worded his guidelines, and I would expect only the extreme posts to be deleted. My appreciation to both Dave and Ken for stepping in to preserve this forum.

-- kim (fleece@eritter.net), May 01, 2001.

Ya know....you can make some of the people happy some of the time, but you can't make all of the people happy all of the time! God bless!

-- Ardie from WI (a6203@hotmail.com), May 01, 2001.

Mary:

Again, I think you are way, way overreacting. There have been something like 70,000 posts against the forum since it was started. My guess is perhaps way less than .0001% of those have been deleted for various reasons, mostly extremely inappropriate postings with vulgar language or they simply went beyond the limits of the moderator's tolerance. The effort is to try to get it back to where it started, a place for homesteaders to raise homesteading-related topics.

Frankly, my current attitude is if you don't like these guidelines, then don't let the door hit you in the butt.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), May 01, 2001.

Mary:

P.S. To my knowledge no thread or posting relating to either MCD or F&MD has been deleted. Dave tells me when he deletes something and I know what I have deleted. Also, for someone else, no thread contained what may or may not be copyrighted material has been deleted. Where are you getting your information?

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), May 01, 2001.

Ken, if I am mistaken about the deletions, then I do apologize. It's true that I posted to another forum also, and maybe I am -hopelessly- confused. I am surprised, however, that you couldn't find the letters about children in the current issue. I was frankly so disgusted,especially after all this about not touching religious or political issues, that I did not read much of the rest of the magazine. I was sorry to see that I had already renewed.

-- mary, texas (marylgarcia@aol.com), May 01, 2001.

I would like to (once again) point out that this forum is provided by Countryside Magazine. We, who post here, are guests -- something forgotten all too often by the posters here! If you were a guest in a private home or at a private party, and the host told you that certain topics were not to be discussed, wouldn't you respect his/her right to set the parameters? I would also like to point out that MOST forums have administrators and/or moderators who will BAN posters who don't follow the rules, not just delete a post or two. The policies here have been and continue to be quite open and liberal.

There is NOTHING to stop anyone from starting their own forum if they don't like the way this one or any other is run. EZBoard allows anyone to create their own, free forum (of course, there are banner ads -- this is how they can provide it for free). There are all sorts of instructions on their site. Check it out at: http://www.ezboard.com/ You'll probably want to click on TOUR (at the top) to find out what it's all about.

I believe that a group of Christians from this board have spun off another forum, where discussing Christian matters and spirituality is welcomed and desired. Someone here must still know what their URL is, for those who want to join it.

Perhaps those who wish to discuss New World Order or whatever it's called will wish to start their own board.

Or do a web search on those topics that interest you -- you can probaby find a discussion group on ANY topic!

-- Joy F [in So. Wisconsin] (CatFlunky@excite.com), May 01, 2001.

The Christian Homesteaders forum is http//hermannj.stormpages.com Click on LUSENET and scroll down to Freedom...self reliance

As far as I'm concerned this is a homesteading forum and I like it better when its more topical. At freedom...self reliance political posts are welcomed and its peopled by folks mostly from the conservative persuasion.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), May 01, 2001.

John thanks for posting the address for the christian homesteaders forum....great group of folks on there. Joy I understand that this site is maintained by countryside...but the fact is countryside is reader written and if countryside looses enough readers then it can't stay in business. So in a way it is our magazine too. I don't know of any other magazine that doesn't pay it's contributors anything...I'm not griping mind you...just making a point. I was a bit surprised to see one of my postings on the forum published in the current issue. I have also contributed articles and had them published. I could just as easily contribute to a paying magazine but I have always liked the friendly family feel of Countryside. As far as weeding out religious and political statements....that's fine as long as it is equal. I consider population control, animal cruelty/mistreatment, any type of nature worship(druidism, wicca, neo- spiritualism),pagans or atheists, any discussion of government handouts, and any form of anti-gun talk totally off limits and offensive according to the new guidelines. If I'm not welcome to be openly Christian then I sure as heck don't want to see any of that other mess. Most Christians are conservative and very interested in simplicity. Some of the more active members on this board are quite openly Christian...I might mention these are normally the ones that do their best to be helpful. Now I'm not saying that it is only christians that do this. I communicate via email with dozens of folks that met me through this forum. Most of them I help concerning cows and bees (which happens to my 'specialty'). If I hadn't been allowed to post on this forum I wouldn't be able to help these beginning homesteaders. Every year at christmas I give away at least 2 gift subscriptions. I guess what I am saying is don't cut off your nose to spite your face.....don't totally alienate a large portion of the Countryside family.

-- Amanda in Mo (aseley@townsqr.com), May 01, 2001.

Ooops the address for the Christian homesteaders forum has changed. It is now www.stormpages.com/homestead/

-- Amanda in Mo (aseley@townsqr.com), May 01, 2001.

Interesting........so animal cruelty/mistreatment is offensive, off- limits and not related to homesteading.........

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), May 01, 2001.

BIG SMILE FROM EAR TO EAR!!!!!! Thank you Dave and Ken! Lets stick to what we all love. Our wonderful homesteading lifestyle where everyone can participate and feel welcome!.....Kirk

-- Kirk Davis (kirkay@yahoo.com), May 01, 2001.

Thank you Dave. And thanks Ken for your tremendous ammt of patience.

For me,ditto what Kim,Joy,John,and Kirk have said.

I have not posted here since early Feb.,bc of everything that was going on both on and off the forum.And I was an active poster during the time I was here, who mostly stayed off hot topics and answered questions.

Let me see if I remember correctly.First, respect was asked for.That didn't last.A temporary truce was called.That had no lasting effect. Thus the place we are at,now. Folks, we all need to take responsibility for creating this situation! Not demonize and scapegoat someone who stepped in and is trying to clean up after our mess.

As I told my boy when he went to visit other people's homes-behave yourself and follow their rules or you won't get invited back.When the nephews came to visit(and 5 boys at once can be a hand full) I left them know it was my house and,therefore, my rules.Well,I see this as Dave's house-Dave's rules.Don't see how that is so hard to figure,myself.

Amanda- I don't disrespect your feelings,but my own observation in my own community is, while,most homesteaders I know, while being very spiritual people, are not necessarily fundamental christians.Some are,some aren't.And I live in the buckle of the bible belt! The assumption that homesteaders are heavily fundamental christian is, as far as I can see, incorrect. And, I did think it was fine to have the diverse opinions here, right up to the point that all the religious and political thrashing,from all sides I might add, causes major distress.That happened,thus the restrictions.I participated at times, as well and accept my culpability.

I may consider posting here again,if conditions improve. I will wait and see.And there ARE other forums to participate on, for those wishing to discuss other matters in a homesteading atmosphere.Ask some of the oldtimers here, and they can direct you,if you need assistance in finding these forums.

Back to cloaked for me.

-- sharon wt (wildflower@ekyol.com), May 02, 2001.

I am sorry it got to this point .The biggest problem i have is religious and political freedom is why this country was founded .Our forefathers risked and lost there lifes for it .I do not post to these topics often ,but I have a problem with them" maybe " being deleted.It's a shame we could not all act like adults here .It's not hard to treat others as you want to be treated or if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all .Thanks for listening.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), May 02, 2001.

Ken, you were right and I was wrong about the deletions. Been stressed out lately, and got confused. I am sorry. I still disagree with you on most things, including the new rules, but am nevertheless sorry I stirred the pot on this one. mary

-- mary, texas (marylgarcia@aol.com), May 02, 2001.

I stopped participating in the religious and political posts when it became quite obvious that the nature of the posts had moved from "sharing information and opinions" to an apparent Holy War, where souls were being fought for and proselytizing somehow became "acceptable" to some. Politically, there is too much divisiveness in the country now anyway...no need to keep fanning the flames.

It has been interesting to watch the forum change over the last year.

Just one other thing. If I formed my opinion about what Christians are like based on where I live, the people I associate with, and the forums I participate in, I would say that most Christians are unabashedly liberal! Of course they are not entirely as a group! But they are not specifically conservative of course, either. It is easy to say what we think groups are like, but we all kind of limit our participation to our peers; read stuff that we agree with; etc., and so see with our own bias.

Ironic if some of the people who wanted to keep this a "family forum" are going to protest the alleged censorship posture. But I dunno. Just my $.02.

Good luck and I would like to see this continue.

-- sheepish (the_original_sheepish@hotmail.com), May 02, 2001.

I should have been a bit clearer on the animal cruelty thing. What I was referring to are the few individuals on here that I suspect are members of PETA that come in here and try to insinuate that we are cruel to our animals. There have been several posts lately talking about castration being inhumane. Well I can see from the new posts that the Christian bashing continues. God bless us all.

-- Amanda in Mo (aseley@townsqr.com), May 02, 2001.

I don't care all that much if the religion and politics are banned or not, but banning "just plain silliness" posts? No more jokes? What is this world coming to if we can't handle being silly? I guess that I shouldn't admit that I'm typing this post while wearing a red clown nose and floppy shoes, eh? :-) (oops, are smiley faces still OK?)

-- Sherri C (CeltiaSkye@aol.com), May 02, 2001.

OK Amamda-I'd like to try this again-Sheepish and I are the only ones that posted after your first post, that even mentioned the word christian.Which one of us is bashing christians? And in what way? Disagreeing with your premise is not bashing,if that was the problem.It is simply disagreeing.

If you believe I did bash christians, I really want to know what I said that would be construed that way.I'm not being a smart aleck.I really do want to know.Because I certainly did not mean it that way, at all.Thank you for any clarification.I can't speak for Sheepish, but can immagine she might want to know if she was misunderstood,as well.

P.S.I personally don't belong to peta either,or even sierra club or audobon society.Not my kind, even tho I don't have a major problem with the latter two.I do have a tremendous respect for all life that has been given to us,by our Creator.I kill my own meat,mostly wild,,but do not do so with relish.I cut trees,but do so with care.How are we that different,I ask? Don't you care for and respect your animals while they are there,even tho you still intend to eat them? That's how I feel.

I can't figure it out,myself.Have yet to be able to see what all this was all about in the first place,for a very long time.I guess I'm just really dense. Perhaps someone wiser than I can tell me what I'm missing here.

-- sharon wt (wildflower@ekyol.com), May 02, 2001.

I have to say, that I have been very vocal about some religious and political things, and to my knowledge have never had a post or a response to one deleted. And, frankly, that surprised me at first. But I was told that this was a very friendly and open forum, and that everyone's views were considered fairly. So, I got over the shock rather quickly, as it was born out by the facts... At least of the moderator and administrator.

Even here, in this post, there have been fingers pointed, accusations made... Seems the new rules aren't going to do anything either! Go figure -

I must have done a good job curbing my reading of religious and political posts here... I haven't seen near the stuff that was so heated just a month ago - perhaps I just haven't been reading them.

As for me personally, reading all of the above makes me feel like a far-right-wing-democrat-sociopath!! Why do we all behave as if our own personal truths belonged to everyone else (yeah.... me too...)??? To state one's own truth - and stand behind it - is a right in this country... It is a privilege on this forum. I've read several things I would love to comment on just in this thread....

My religion and my politics affect the way I live my life and are inseperable from it. Several people have mentioned similar views. The problem here lies in the fact that some people continually demand from all of us acknowledgement that their personal views are considered to be universal - truth. How arrogant! And, how juvenile.

As for the censorship issue, I am really divided. I strongly disagree with anything that even remotely smacks of censorship. However, I also understand that as long as we (me, myself, and I included) continue to behave as children, then Ken and Dave have a reason to behave as our parents. I don't like it much, but then I never liked being spanked when I was younger, either.

I would like to continue to be able to ask questions - I am not an expert on ANY topic... and I would like to be able to continue to help where I can. I will do so until requested by Dave or Ken that I do otherwise. However, I will also continue to voice my personal protest against things that I view as unfair or blatantly false.

-- Sue Diederich (willow666@rocketmail.com), May 02, 2001.

Ahem....shall we get on with it! How about we all think of an interesting topic to post. I thought of one, but, with my memory...I completely forgot what it was. I agree with what has been stated by Dave Belanger, and if I disagreed, I'd still go along with it cause it IS his forum. God bless!

-- Ardie from WI (a6203@hotmail.com), May 03, 2001.

Question: Does this apply to prayer requests? Some like to share those. Glad to see you allow Hoot to continue. I like his insights.

-- Cora-Vee Caswell (coravee@locl.net), May 03, 2001.

Amen John!!!! Thanks for saying what I couldn't find the right words to say. Blessings to all----weather here in South Central Michigan is gorgeous, mushrooms finally popping and I am spending my time doing some creative stuff. I hope you all can have some fun now, and we can all enjoy each other and play nice.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), May 03, 2001.

You know Ken and Dave, I have supported your rights to delete, still will, but deleting John's post got to even me. John has been a steady proponent of playing nice and I thought what he had to say was VERY PERTAINENT to what was going on here.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), May 03, 2001.

Please further revise the guidelines to reflect that no tongue in cheek humor or rebukes are allowed for those who take this all too seriously.

Another request,if you do delete any more posts of mine please delete the entire addy and all. I don't want people to think I posted that remark. No, on second thought, that does sound like one of my public service announcements. And as always, truth is stranger than fiction.

I really am surprised about this. No, I won't go off to the apple tree w/ a rope and a bar stool or anything, just surprised. This used to be a place where you could have fun and make jokes, tell stories, and even argue w/ someone about "stuff". It never was about homestead only topics. I'll be "inflammatory" again and say that if anyone gets offended by anything seen here or anywhere on the internet, they really do need to get some kind of mental tune up. This forum and this entire media is not something to get your life "tweaked" about.

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), May 03, 2001.

As a very serious Christian (and very active in my church and the various communities in which I participate and yes, minister within) I would hope that I'm not perceived as Christian bashing! Good grief.

-- sheepish (the_original_sheepish@hotmail.com), May 03, 2001.

tweak, tweak, tweak, tweak..........Ardie, where are the cookies and milk????

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), May 04, 2001.

John:

It wasn't what you said, but rather the way you said it. If it was intended as 'tongue-in-check' humor, it went past both myself and Dave. Have completely deleted the initial post.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), May 04, 2001.

Ken, Please don't misunderstand my position on this. I don't dispute your right to edit as you guys see fit. Not a problem. What I find kinda funny is, That post was meant to be a rebuke of those who take all this so seriously. It was meant as a sarcastic, tongue in cheek, yet purposeful statement. W/ a funny "get real, and don't take yourself or any of this like it means something in the big scheme of things" intent. I hate to say it, but if you guys didn't "get it", your to close to the forest to see the trees.

What I said wasn't aimed at any individual, or group, was inclusive to include even myself as a "Bozo". I sure don't think my opinion is all that important in the big picture and nobody out there can "Offend" Me. I don't understand how anyone can be "offended" by anything that is put on the web. Remember the "I saw it on the internet so it must be true" thing.

Think about it, It's not any one group or individual that has been the root of all this discord. It's the fact that so many people are thin skinned and whiny. And vindictive (Think viruses and cyber attacks). There has been a steady decline in the civility level here, plain and simple. No patience w/ each other and no tolerance FOR each other. A decided lack of well reasoned arguements and a distinct increase in the "How dare you" levels.

If I didn't come across w/ that message properly- shame on me for not saying it well enough. If I got deleted because the truth hurts- Shame on you. No hard feelings on my part either way.

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), May 04, 2001.

My computer has been down so haven't seen the forum lately until today. I can't believe that Countryside is CENSORING e-mail! What happened to free speech? In fact alot of political input affects the homestead family..for instance Monsanto's cozy relationship with the Whitehouse. Our country was founded by Christian principles so what's wrong with alittle religion..don't tell me you are becoming "politically correct". Sure hope not. I can determine myself whatI want to read; I don't need "Big Brother OR "Countryside" to do it for me. Elaine Cosgrove

-- Elaine Cosgrove (adirondackwoman@westelcom.com), May 07, 2001.