Y2k and a couple of problems (Politics)greenspun.com : LUSENET : Countryside : One Thread |
Okay, so we've suddenly got power shortages, and now we've got gasoline shortqages and I've got to wonder if there wasn't a lot more power fritzes and gasoline production lines shut down than we were ever told. I know, I know, it sounds paranoid, but for all the years before Y2K we got along just fine, thank you. Power plants did their maintenance without suddenly having brown outs everywhere, and the "boutique" gas got made just fine without suddenly not being able to retool for spring and needed to bust prices through the $3 level.There just isn't a reason for all of this to be happening now, within a year of Y2k, without there being some awfully big messes in the back room that no one will ever own up to. What do you think?
-- Ann Zavala (Anncats2@AOL.com), April 21, 2001
Hello Ann, The power shortages were caused by poor planning by city and state officials in Cali. They decided to not build anymore power plants and sub let the ones that they did not need. Now, years later they need more electric. The companies they sublet too are offering to sell it to them at a premium. Since they did not keep up with the population growth in Cali, electricity is in short supply and reductions of it in certain areas is called brown outs. Gas prices are up because the seven sisters (middleeast countries) have reduce production.Since the demand is still there and supply has been reduced the only choice is to raise prices. Y2k is over, dead and gone! We fixed the alleged problems with the computers and should not have that senerio again for another millineum. The world is not coming to an end as we have had gas crisis and energy crisis' before. I remember the one in the early sevenites and a little one in the eighties. Actually, there was a period for almost ten years that gas prices stayed around the one dollar mark. It was due to go up anyway, as everything else has over the years. Sincerely, Ernest
-- http://communities.msn.com/livingoffthelandintheozarks (espresso42@hotmail.com), April 21, 2001.
I haven't seen any $3 gasoline here in Kansas yet. The station I went past yesterday still offered it at $1.599. It had gone up ten cents to that level the week before.I walk and bicycle most everywhere, but I did buy diesel fuel this week to do farming with, and without the road tax it was $1.049.
Like I told a friend this past week, I'll think that there is an energy shortage when I learn of the lights going out in LasVegas.
As a side note, I received an email this week that said the State of California ranks 48th in energy consumption per person out of the 50 states.
-- Notforprint (Not@thekeyboard.com), April 22, 2001.
Espresso is right, most of the y2k problems were fixed before rollover. That said, however, there has been some interesting research done on the unusual number of refinery shutdowns and accidents that occurred in the months directly after 1.1.00. They coincided nicely with OPEC's gradual tightening of supplies, which actually started in early 1999 when oil prices bottomed out at $10-11 a barrel. The crunch hit in heating oil in Jan-Feb 00 and we've been playing catch-up ever since. Add to that the developing shortage in natural gas supplies, and life starts to get complicated.All of which is prelude to the fact that the booming economy of the late 1990s finally pushed demand ahead of supply on a whole host of energy fronts. There hasn't been a new oil refinery built in the United States since 1976. California hasn't seen a new generating plant built in something like 20 years.
I don't expect the situation to improve much, if at all -- ever. For more information, do a Google search on Hubbert Curve or visit the Hubbert Newsletter page at the Colorado School of Mines site. Or sign up for the RunningOnEmpty and Alas Babylon groups at EZ Board.
-- Cash (Cash@andcarry.com), April 22, 2001.
Ann,I too wonder what the REAL story is. There's all sorts of blame being laid on reduced production from the middle east, etc. But...I also know there are lots of productive wells NOT being used here in Wyoming and elsewhere. I think it's a ploy to swing popular opinion around to let them go after what there is in Alaska. However, I think you do have something when you question whether or not there were more problems than were revealed. I don't think it will improve....at all. Our society seems to have gone past a turn- back point.....and the future doesn't look all that rosy. Being as self sufficient as possible will be the only way to survive it. Don't mean to be all doom and gloom...basically I'm an optimist.. But, I enough of a realist to realize something has changed....
-- Deborah (bearwaoman@Yahoo.com), April 22, 2001.
Ernest is absolutely correct, Most conspiracies are for the ill informed or otherwise impaired.The refining problem has its roots going back several years just like the power shortage in CA. When was the last time a new major refinery was built in the USA?
-- Lynn Goltz (lynngoltz@aol.com), April 22, 2001.
It just came to my attention that the RunningOnEmpty board is now closed to new members except by invitation, but both the current posts and the archives are open for reading.
-- Cash (Cash@andcarry.com), April 22, 2001.
No problem, it's all part of THE plan. The plan is all about money (yours). Get ready to live with a lot less (money).
-- Ed Copp (OH) (edcopp@yahoo.com), April 22, 2001.
Oh Ed, do I ever agree with you!! Just hang in there - we may be in for quite a ride!
-- Bonnie (chilton@stateline-isp.com), April 22, 2001.
I too agree with Ed it all boils down to money and how they can get more from us. My 12 yr. old son said " Why doesn't the goverment get to ask for $ everytime they run into a problem?" From the mouths of babes, why is it that they can't/ won't tighten their belts and make do like the rest of us. Instead they vote themselves raises every year, give themselves a wonderful retirement / insurance package while the rest of us have to keep tightening so they can " Make do" I'm getting really sick of hearing about our schools not having enough money, they need to cut the fat( administration positions) and there would be plenty. Here in Montana the school situation is terrible, they NEED money and are willing to close schools and layoff teachers to get it. My question is this if you're personally in a tight spot and need to rethink your budget what do you cut , the $ 2.00 movie rental once in a great while or do you cut the $ 40.00 a month you allow for extras( dinners out, new clothes etc....) Any normal person would cut out the $40 not the $2. Our federal and state goverments don't seen to think that way. Lay off the teachers who make $35,000.00 a year verses laying off a administrative superintendent who makes $ 60,000.00 ( beginning pay). Nothing will change if people don't take a stand, so few do that they are readliy called Extremists, Radicals and troublemakers. Let us not forget that it's our money who pays their salary, we are their boss, but somewhere along the line we've forgotten this. :o(
-- Kelle in MT. (kvent1729@aol.com), April 23, 2001.
OOPS, sorry it was supposed to say " why does the goverment get to ask for money.........
-- Kelle in MT. (kvent1729@aol.com), April 23, 2001.
I remember reading an earlier thread in this forum that while it is true that no new refineries have been built in California, why haven't rolling blackouts occured earlier? The population of California didn't explode in one year. There is more to this story than we are being told by the media and / or power companies. ooooowwweeeeeeoooooo!
-- julio r. guerra (jrguerra@boultinghouse.com), April 23, 2001.
First off... I don't think so much that there was any 'conspiracy' - just some really STUPID people in power.I guess you guys all missed the 70's??? There were power and gas shortages... Not just gas... We were all warned then, but as is typical of the human race, got complacent. And lazy.
California isn't the only one to blame here, folks... The entire Northwest is having a problem, as are parts of the Midwest, and the upper East Coast. Nobody wanted to spend money on developing new sources, increasing existing facilities, or exploration. Nobody thought to even try to predict what would happen when they started having to charge cell phones, plugged into the internet, etc. etc. For all their D***ed modern conveniences, the folks in this country lost a brain-cell for each.
Y2K incidents are still coming out. It wasn't the glorified success that we were told. However, it wasn't the mess that some thought it could be, either. A lot of people worked an awfully long and hard time to keep it down to where it was.
I like Hoot's take on it a few posts ago. He talked about the Book of Revelations.
How long are we going to sit back and be complacent??? Most of us live rather frugal lives concerning both power and money... But, there is a whole world out there that couldn't give a ****.
BTW: OPEC has been cutting back ever since the gulf war. Even our 'pals' over in Saudi Arabia aren't sending out what they used to. They also are developing solar power at a rate higher than the 'greenies' here would love to see. Why?
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that things are going to change big time in the near future. How that change affects each one of us is only up to us... Not some blasted government official sitting in Washington, a state legislature somewhere, or some guy at a power plant.
Personally - I hope they DO drill in ANWR - and everywhere else for that matter. Would serve those idiots right. Nobody wants to cut back, scale down, research new sources of power. Just take, use, build, and to hell with the consequences. Fine. Then they can all live with the consequences. And folks like Ann and me will sit back and laugh. How do those folks (especially if they have kids) sleep at night???????
-- Sue Diederich (willow666@rocketmail.com), April 23, 2001.
Most conspiracies are for the ill informed or otherwise impaired.It's just a simple case of bad planning by government officials.
Right. In that case, I suppose that a group of government officials (e.g. Jorge Arbusto, aka George Bush, President Select, Pacific Gas and Electric, SoCalEdison, Enron, Calif.PUC, the list goes on) are NOT a conspiracy. On the other hand, they show all the signs of being a conspiracy, such as PG and E giving huge bonuses to it's managers just before bankrupcy, passing on billions of dollars to it's parent company in order to declare bankrupcy while giving the parent company humongous "windfall" profits, Calif PUC forcing retail power companies to hold prices down, thus encouraging consumption while the wholesalers raised rates up to more than ten times, thus setting up a NEAR PERFECT scam to screw over the US population (especially Californicators) while enriching the power company creeps (guess who was the single largest contributor to Jorge Arbusto's presidential selection campaign? ENRON!! (Gee, could there be a connection?)
Which president select is cutting the funding for solar concentrator research? (You know, the process which is already PROVEN, and which can CURRENTLY produce power for 15 cents per kwh (WAY cheaper than Enron et al are charging the suckers in Calif gov't for power) and expect to be able to produce it for a nickel per kwh if they are allowed to build large numbers of generators. This is also the one solar power source which could produce ALL the electrical needs for the US by building these (low tech) concentrators over a mere hundred square mile area of the Mojave Desert, thus eliminating ALL the pollution produced by the current power industry.
Which non conspirators are responsible for the ridiculous "answer" to the power "crisis"? Check out these figures, from "Real Goods Trading Company, a California corporation":
Friday, February 9th, 2001 Issue Twenty-Three
* Welcome to Solar Times Number 23 * A Simple, Cheap, Effective way to Solve the California Energy Crisis (Forever!) * Eco News Stories * Hydrogen Fuel Cells Come of Age * More Eco News Stories ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to Solar Times Number 23 Now that our merger has been completed with Gaiam, with this issue we're welcoming Gaiam.com readers to a sample issue of the Solar Times. If you haven't already subscribed and want to continue to receive our every-other-week newsletter filled with the latest news on renewable energy and the environment, click here. Please feel free to email me directly jschaeffer@realgoods.com with your ideas, questions, and concerns. For the Earth, John Schaeffer, Real Goods President and Founder P.S. As a special welcome, please visit Gaiam.com and use the offer code "REALGOODS" at the top of your shopping bag page before proceeding to checkout and receive free shipping on your orders over $75 on Gaiam.com. This offer expires February 28th, 2001. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the California Energy Crisis, Conservation is the Obvious Answer! The headlines continue to blaze in California about the energy mess. Politicians continue to posture with crazy ideas to create more power plants. The oil and gas industries continue to use this crisis as an excuse to drill in Alaska, to develop "clean coal" (an oxymoron if I ever heard one), and to bring nuclear power back on the table. But the answer is so simple! CONSERVATION and Solar Energy can easily save us. At Real Goods Renewables (1.800.919.2400) our phones continue to ring off the hook with new folks interested in solarizing every day. We've had over 4 media interviews every day over the past several weeks including CBS and NBC national news and the NY Times. Fact: There are 1,000 power plants in California putting out 53 mW on average for a total combined output of 53,204 mW. With 24 hours in a day, thus, the average California power plant can put out 1.3 gWh (gigawatt is 1000 mW) per day.
* There are 34 million people in California and 15 million households. * If every household in California replaced 4 (average 100 watt) incandescent light bulbs with 4 (equivalent 27 watt) compact fluorescent light bulbs, burning on average 5 hours per day, we would save 22 gWh per day - or enough energy saved to shut down 17 power plants. * If the State bought these lamps for every household at $2 each, total cost would be $120 million. Could we build the same 17 power plants for $120 million? Not by a long shot! * If every household in California replaced 1 average-flow showerhead with an energy saving showerhead we would save 1.3 kWh per day per household or 19.2 gWh per day - or enough energy saved to shut down another 15 power plants. * If the State bought these low flow showerheads for every household at $1 each, total cost would be $15 million. Could we build the same 15 power plants for $1 million each? Hardly! * If every household in California installed a solar hot water heater, which saves 5.8 kWh/day, we would cumulatively save 87 gWh/day - or enough energy saved to shut down another 67 power plants. Conclusion: These very simple conservation measures would enable the State of California to shut down 100 average sized power plants out of the 1,000 we currently have, or better yet, leave them running and eliminate any need to construct new ones for years! For a mere cost of $135 million, the state could pretty much solve this "crisis!" Fact: With over $250 million available in rebates for solar-electric (photovoltaic) systems in California (and much in other states as well), the payback time for an average home solar system is now only 10 years and falling rapidly as electric rates continue to skyrocket. Solar energy is now a GREAT investment! WHEN WILL OUR GOVERNMENT COME TO ITS SENSES? The time for Solar is now and Conservation will solve this energy crisis! (Energy facts were derived from California Energy Commission's website: http://www.energy.ca.gov.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), April 23, 2001.
Most conspiracies are for the ill informed or otherwise impaired.It's just a simple case of bad planning by government officials.
Right. In that case, I suppose that a group of government officials (e.g. Jorge Arbusto, aka George Bush, President Select, Pacific Gas and Electric, SoCalEdison, Enron, Calif.PUC, the list goes on) are NOT a conspiracy. On the other hand, they show all the signs of being a conspiracy, such as PG and E giving huge bonuses to it's managers just before bankrupcy, passing on billions of dollars to it's parent company in order to declare bankrupcy while giving the parent company humongous "windfall" profits, Calif PUC forcing retail power companies to hold prices down, thus encouraging consumption while the wholesalers raised rates up to more than ten times, thus setting up a NEAR PERFECT scam to screw over the US population (especially Californicators) while enriching the power company creeps (guess who was the single largest contributor to Jorge Arbusto's presidential selection campaign? ENRON!! (Gee, could there be a connection?)
Which president select is cutting the funding for solar concentrator research? (You know, the process which is already PROVEN, and which can CURRENTLY produce power for 15 cents per kwh (WAY cheaper than Enron et al are charging the suckers in Calif gov't for power) and expect to be able to produce it for a nickel per kwh if they are allowed to build large numbers of generators. This is also the one solar power source which could produce ALL the electrical needs for the US by building these (low tech) concentrators over a mere hundred square mile area of the Mojave Desert, thus eliminating ALL the pollution produced by the current power industry.
Which non conspirators are responsible for the ridiculous "answer" to the power "crisis"? Check out these figures, from "Real Goods Trading Company, a California corporation":
Friday, February 9th, 2001 Issue Twenty-Three
* Welcome to Solar Times Number 23 * A Simple, Cheap, Effective way to Solve the California Energy Crisis (Forever!) * Eco News Stories * Hydrogen Fuel Cells Come of Age * More Eco News Stories ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to Solar Times Number 23 Now that our merger has been completed with Gaiam, with this issue we're welcoming Gaiam.com readers to a sample issue of the Solar Times. If you haven't already subscribed and want to continue to receive our every-other-week newsletter filled with the latest news on renewable energy and the environment, click here. Please feel free to email me directly jschaeffer@realgoods.com with your ideas, questions, and concerns. For the Earth, John Schaeffer, Real Goods President and Founder P.S. As a special welcome, please visit Gaiam.com and use the offer code "REALGOODS" at the top of your shopping bag page before proceeding to checkout and receive free shipping on your orders over $75 on Gaiam.com. This offer expires February 28th, 2001. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the California Energy Crisis, Conservation is the Obvious Answer! The headlines continue to blaze in California about the energy mess. Politicians continue to posture with crazy ideas to create more power plants. The oil and gas industries continue to use this crisis as an excuse to drill in Alaska, to develop "clean coal" (an oxymoron if I ever heard one), and to bring nuclear power back on the table. But the answer is so simple! CONSERVATION and Solar Energy can easily save us. At Real Goods Renewables (1.800.919.2400) our phones continue to ring off the hook with new folks interested in solarizing every day. We've had over 4 media interviews every day over the past several weeks including CBS and NBC national news and the NY Times. Fact: There are 1,000 power plants in California putting out 53 mW on average for a total combined output of 53,204 mW. With 24 hours in a day, thus, the average California power plant can put out 1.3 gWh (gigawatt is 1000 mW) per day.
* There are 34 million people in California and 15 million households. * If every household in California replaced 4 (average 100 watt) incandescent light bulbs with 4 (equivalent 27 watt) compact fluorescent light bulbs, burning on average 5 hours per day, we would save 22 gWh per day - or enough energy saved to shut down 17 power plants. * If the State bought these lamps for every household at $2 each, total cost would be $120 million. Could we build the same 17 power plants for $120 million? Not by a long shot! * If every household in California replaced 1 average-flow showerhead with an energy saving showerhead we would save 1.3 kWh per day per household or 19.2 gWh per day - or enough energy saved to shut down another 15 power plants. * If the State bought these low flow showerheads for every household at $1 each, total cost would be $15 million. Could we build the same 15 power plants for $1 million each? Hardly! * If every household in California installed a solar hot water heater, which saves 5.8 kWh/day, we would cumulatively save 87 gWh/day - or enough energy saved to shut down another 67 power plants. Conclusion: These very simple conservation measures would enable the State of California to shut down 100 average sized power plants out of the 1,000 we currently have, or better yet, leave them running and eliminate any need to construct new ones for years! For a mere cost of $135 million, the state could pretty much solve this "crisis!" Fact: With over $250 million available in rebates for solar-electric (photovoltaic) systems in California (and much in other states as well), the payback time for an average home solar system is now only 10 years and falling rapidly as electric rates continue to skyrocket. Solar energy is now a GREAT investment! WHEN WILL OUR GOVERNMENT COME TO ITS SENSES? The time for Solar is now and Conservation will solve this energy crisis! (Energy facts were derived from California Energy Commission's website: http://www.energy.ca.gov.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I must say that the claim that solar electric has a ten year pay back time is a bit misleading. This factoid is based on a power rate of 15 cents per kwh, and a 30-40% rebate (like you can apparently get in Calif) Otherwise, these preceeding statements are very enlightening, imho.
Sorry I got so excited about this, but it reall pisses me off to see how our non conspiracy government types, and power industry types are willing to rip us off, lie to us, and generally treat us like gutless fools. :-( grr.
JOJ
-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), April 23, 2001.
Our power company had an offer recently of 2-27 watt(=75 watt) florescent light bulb, (Free) all you had to do was mail in a card. We did and they sent them, one did not work and we sent it back and are waiting for the replacement. They are made in China as nearly everything is these days, I'm not surprised one did not work.One of GW Bush's campaign remarks was that he thought that drilling in the ANWR was needed. Well of course it is, for him anyway, Dick Chaney hold $8 million in stock from Haleburton, the worlds largest oil, drilling company and all the pravately raised money for Juniors campaign came from Texas oil money. Texas oil has a tight grip on the coal industry as well as power generating plants in the west. When they get all the patents lined up for solar energy devices, then they will let it out of the closet. BP oil,(Union 76) has been producing solar panels for a few years now.
-- Hendo (OR) (redgate@echoweb.net), April 25, 2001.
Please, Shut Up and sit down. You are not going through any more than those who traveled the road before you. You will survive. through hook or crook. An old term which meant by luck or ingenuity.
-- My Story and (Iam@sticking.com), April 27, 2001.