Presidential selection took the heart out of democracy

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This is not the conclusion I would prefer to draw, but only the one I cannot avoid. Democracy was not in very good shape in the USA before the previous election. Now, since Bush's selection by the US Supreme Court, all the heart seems to have gone out of those few of us who still believed in democracy.

While those who constantly remind us that the US is a "republic, not a democracy" may find this conclusion gratifying, they probably should find it very disturbing and dangerous. Political opposition always exists. Democracy allows opposition to find expression in well-defined channels. When people lose their trust in democracy, those channels for expressing opposition become increasingly dysfunctional.

With only 50% of those eligible to vote actually casting votes, our political life as a nation was already tenuous in the extreme. The 2000 election and its aftermath seems to have hollowed out our politics to an extent not dreamed of even 4 years ago.

This can only end badly. We are a nation in deep mourning for our lost democratic ideals, whatever rationalizations Flint makes to the contrary.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), April 20, 2001

Answers

How can we be "a nation in deep mourning"

if

"only 50% of these eligible to vote actually" cast votes?

-- Chemtrail Pilot (Ispr@y.u), April 20, 2001.


From my experience, most people don't care as much as you do.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), April 20, 2001.

Next time you're in Borders or one of the other major bookstores, pick up a a copy of Blacks Law Dictionary, 7th edition, Copy 1999.

The Constitution is written in the back. Next, is (wait for it)

"Universal Bill of Human Rights"- the 1948 United Nations draft.

No American Bill of Rights

Next, look up Bill of Rights in the definition section. Four other "types" of Bill of Rights are used to define, but not our American version.

I think we are more than halfway there.

-- KoFE (your@town.USSA), April 20, 2001.


Dubya stands for winner!

-- dubya not dumbya (win@2004.also), April 20, 2001.

This strikes me as a case of seeing what you choose to see. If extremely similar candidates end up in a statistical tie, is this bad because unusual mechanisms were required to resolve it, or good because (except for a few fanatics) everyone wins no matter which candidate ends up in the office? I personally think this was a no- lose situation, since I found about equal value in both candidates.

And if only half the people vote, is this bad because it implies the heart has gone out of the game, or is this good because people are satisfied with the way things are going and genuinely don't care which candidate continues along this same path? Again, I personally would worry when the voting percentage gets too high, because to me that would imply irreconcilable differences. People don't turn out in droves to express contentment.

Perhaps the very similarity of the parties implies something bad? But this also seems unlikely. Third parties offering striking differences have a terrible track record. People choose what the major parties offer, overwhelmingly. And I can't believe you're pining for a single- party condition, as was the case in Mexico for so long. Where the loyal opposition has NO power, democracy is in real trouble indeed.

Deep mourning? This is the wishful thinking of a poor loser. What we're seeing is satisfaction. The political process is behaving as it should, letting people do what they consider important with their lives without having to sweat the threat of upheaval a change of regime causes in many countries.

Be honest, Nipper. If the Supreme Court had decided to go ahead and count the votes and Bush won anyway (as seems as likely as anything), would your heart then be uplifted instead?

I suggest a dose of reality. Go ask your neighbors if they are "in deep mourning for their lost democratic ideals". I'll bet you the most common reply you'd get would be "huh"?

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), April 20, 2001.



"When people lose their trust in democracy, those channels for expressing opposition become increasingly dysfunctional."

That's exactly what the conservative assholes want! They voted for Dumbya because he is a completely dysfunctional idiot, he doesn't know the difference between right and wrong. He actually does not see any problem with destroying life on this planet, as long as it is good for the multinational corporations.

-- conservatives are worthless shits (moreinterpretation@ugly.com), April 20, 2001.


conservatives are worthless shits,

you have to remember that all of the repugs are as stupid as dumbya so in their world (shiver) ole shit for brains looks pretty good. I knew the fillers would take over someday but I thought it would at least be humorous. Think of all the work we are going to have to do to reverse all the crap that dumbya is pulling. We don't all want to live in the past!!

-- Pinky (Fuck the@repugs.com), April 21, 2001.


Pinky you worthless pile of human waste, in order to fuck a repug you need to grow a dick pussy boy. All these years of taking it up your fat ass have given you a sour outlook on life. You and your liberal friends are just harmless scum, not to be taken seriously. Hopefully, you traitorous cocksuckers will self-destruct and help clean up the air for the rest of us.

Have a nice day!

-- Stinky (pinky@isa.twinkie), April 22, 2001.


Thanks Stinky! I am having a nice day because I got one more of you fucking repugs to show your true colors. You have demonstrated your ability to cut and paste - how long did it take you to write your blast of words? Makes me glad your on the bad evil side.

-- Pinky (Fuck the@repugs.com), April 22, 2001.

What ‘Nation in mourning’ do you live in Nipper? Certainly not the Nation that I live in. Of course, in my Nation people are overjoyed that the traitors known as the liberal bloodsuckers have been removed from power. The only mourning in my Nation is that Clinton and his gang of criminals are still loose in our society. I like my Nation, too bad about yours, wherever it may be.

So Nipper, you can just run along now and play with yourself…and please take the little eunuch Pinky with you. The rest of us have work to do.

-- The (might@is.right), April 22, 2001.



I didn't vote.

-- Ginky (so@blame.me), April 22, 2001.

I did. I voted with the majority.

-- Pinky (Fuck the@repugs.com), April 22, 2001.

I did too. I voted with the majority of the electoral college.

-- shrinky (life@with.shrinky), April 22, 2001.

I’m ashamed to say that I did not vote in the last election. I was complacent and apathetic. Never thought that Gore could find enough niggers, low-lifes, and dead people to get himself elected. Fortunately he couldn’t but I’ll not make that mistake again, nor will the rest of the good people in this country. Hard working Americans everywhere will get to the polls, without being induced by a pack of cigarettes or a ride in the lettuce truck. So liberals don’t waste your time trying to teach your brethren how the voting machine works….won’t matter in 2004.

-- No (chad@too.bad), April 23, 2001.

"I’m ashamed to say that I did not vote in the last election."

You don't need an excuse to be ashamed, you can just be ashamed of yourself.

"I was complacent and apathetic."

Don't know about that, but you're definitely PATHETIC!

"Never thought that Gore could find enough niggers, low-lifes, and dead people to get himself elected."

Gore found enough niggers, but unfortunately there are a lot more low-lifes and dead people. They all voted for Dumbya.

"Fortunately he couldn’t but I’ll not make that mistake again, nor will the rest of the good people in this country."

Good idea. Whatever you did or didn't do, don't do it again. Having a dysfunctional idiot man-child as our president is a BIG mistake, for good people and bad people alike.

"Hard working Americans everywhere will get to the polls, without being induced by a pack of cigarettes or a ride in the lettuce truck."

Really? Dumbya is gonna offer another tax cut in 2003 for the wealthiest 1% of our population, and a bunch of stupid fucking rednecks will be dumb enough to trust him AGAIN???

"So liberals don’t waste your time trying to teach your brethren how the voting machine works….won’t matter in 2004."

Are you trying to tell us that the coup d'etat will now become the standard procedure for taking control of the presidency? Hmmm, guess we'll have to build up our arsenals so that Dumbya will be too dead to steal the office again next time.

-- conservatives are worthless shits (moreinterpretation@ugly.com), April 23, 2001.



conservatives are worthless shits,

Did you just threaten the life of the President of the United States of America?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), April 23, 2001.

No, I threatened the life of the Village Idiot of the United States of America.

-- (Dumbya isn't the President @ he's the. President-Reject), April 23, 2001.

Did you, or did you not, just threaten the life of George W. Bush?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), April 23, 2001.

Dumbya will NOT be a candidate in the next election, thank God!

Go ahead, call the CIA you worthless pissant fuckwad! Save your idiot hero! I can just picture you on the phone, sobbing like a wimpy-boy.... "Someone is threatening our hero, sniff-sniff. I'm worried that the world will end without our Dumbya, boo-hoo-hoo"

ROTFLMAO!!

-- conservatives are worthless shits (kiss my ass @ J-gay.-boy), April 23, 2001.


worthless shit,

I believe that you are threatening the life of the President of the United States of America.

Since I am of the belief that you are not really an adult, but still just a child, and therefore unaware of the consequences of your words, I tell you what I will do. If you politely apologize for being such a rude little brat here on the forum, if you promise not to come back and disrupt the forum again, and most importantly, if you apologize for your comments about the President, and clarify that you are not threatening his life, then I will conclude that you are just some snot-nosed little punk playing on Daddy's computer, and not some traitorous coward who is planning to kill the President.

However, if you fail to make these apologies, promise, and clarification, then I will be forced to believe that your threats are indeed, real, and that appropriate action must be taken.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), April 23, 2001.

Sure J, how's this for an apology?

KISS

MY

LIBERAL

ASS

FAGGOT

BOY!!



-- conservatives are worthless shits (moreinterpretation@ugly.com), April 23, 2001.

worthless shit,

Well, you had your chance.

By the way, it is the Secret Service, not the CIA.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), April 23, 2001.

Conservatives.... if J bothers or threatens you in real life, let us know so we can return the favor.

Nipper, most of the folks I know agree that the heart has gone out of democracy. But look at what happened in Quebec this weekend. Tens of thousands of people marched in the streets defending democratic ideals against the multinational corporations who are buying the FTAA. (Literally buying it -- they paid hefty fees to support it, and were allowed into the summit and allowed to look at the documents -- no one else had that privilege except heads of state. The FTAA negotiations were conducted entirely in secret.) I think it's heartening that so many people are taking to the streets to demand change.

Anyway, don't lose heart. We have not and will not forget.

-- Viva la Revolution! (go@democracy.com), April 24, 2001.


paper towel boy,

You wrote, "Conservatives.... if J bothers you in real life, let us know so we can return the favor".

I won't "bother" worthless shit in real life. He may, however, feel "bothered" by the Secret Service.

As far as the "us", can I assume that you and the Brawny guy are a homosexual couple?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), April 24, 2001.

J, bother me??? Bwaahahahahaaha!! That's a good one Viva!

He's just a spoiled crybaby who thinks he can send out a Nazi goon squad everytime someone resists his hero Dumbya the dictator. Conservatives easily turn into traitors when they smell money.

As you said, fortunately there are still enough of us true Americans who will stand up for our country and our democracy. We kicked Hitler's ass the first time, and we'll be happy to do it again.

LONG LIVE AMERICA!!!

-- conservatives are worthless shits (liberals are gonna @ take. the power back), April 24, 2001.


worthless shit,

As I said before, you have the right of free speech in this great country. However, you don't have the right to threaten the life of the President. You are obviously too stupid to know that. It is you that is a traitor, not I.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), April 24, 2001.

I hate to pop your bubble, J, but nobody in the Secret Service would blink twice at this "threat".

I once read a newspaper article on it after one of the periodic lunatics was found wandering around on the South Lawn of the White House. Or maybe it was the lunatic with the gun by the front fence. Anyway, it seems the good citizens of the USA snitch to the Secret Service about roughly 1000 "threats to the President's life" every month. Only about 30 or 40 files are kept open at any one time on the small subset of threats that are considered serious and few of those ever result in any action beyond keeping a watchful eye open.

Your remarks about treason and prison time are pure masturbation fantasy. But keep it up (wink!). Milk it for all it is worth (wink! wink!).

-- Miserable SOB (misery@misery.com), April 24, 2001.


I have a few questions maybe somebody could answer for me, please? Why do you liberals love Clinton, so much? Why do you defend his actions? Why do all the people close to him, that have been killed not bother you? Why do all the scandals associated with his administration not cause you to think about suicide? Why do you continously attack the man elected now, who is trying to clean up that mess? (God help him...) How can you look yourself in the mirror in the morning and not want to vomit? Thanks in advance.....

-- Marg (okay@cutaway.com), April 24, 2001.

Marg: I have a few questions maybe somebody could answer for me, please?

Oh, Marg, that was a very clumsy troll. Even a rabid skunk wouldn't blunder into it. But wait an itty bit and maybe you can trap a particularly stupid sheep that's simulataneously suffering from sunstroke and cataracts.

-- Miserable SOB (misery@misery.com), April 24, 2001.


Miserable SOB, How long have you been a stupid sheep suffering from cataracts and sunstroke?

-- Marg (okay@cutaway.com), April 24, 2001.

The address of the ball is very important in the game of golf. One should address the ball firmly, but politely, such as, "Mr. Ball, sir."

One must also swing the club fluidly, gracefully, smoothly, from the hips, slightly flexing the knees, keeping the left arm stiff and straight, with your thumbs pointed directly at the club head, while swiveling from the waist, toes planted firmly, ankles flexing, while simultaneously keeping your head utterly still as if your forehead were leaned against a wall, lips pouting slightly in a quizzical look of determined concentration. You may feel free to do whatever you want with your ears.

Is that plain enough?

Moooo.

-- Break out the cookies and milk (aimless@national_raffle_association.org), April 24, 2001.


Marge:

I am interested in your comments. Please note that I am a political independent. Where I live, one doesn’t register by party. I didn’t vote for Bush and my rural county voted for Gore by a large margin.

I judge people by performance. I pay little attention to people like Rush, Safire, Rense and World Net Daily, etc. I just haven’t found them to be reliable sources of information. That is where you get your data [or at least they spread the stories that you refer to; not to mention a certain person in PA]. Once again, performance. When Clinton was President, things worked well. Therefore, I supported him. Everything else is not relevant. The one thing that I didn’t approve of in the Clinton administration was the continued redistribution of wealth towards the upper income levels. He continued a trend started by Reagan. You can find that data quite readily. I think that this will eventually lead to the destabilization of our society. You can ask the bones of Alexander. Oh, there was a second. As a scientist, I didn’t agree with the Kyoto accord.

Now to Bush. Everyone here seems to know a lot about Bush. Makes no difference whether they support him or oppose him. I have never been able to find much other than opinion. I know what the responsibilities of the Governor of Texas are. Many feel that they are so limited that it doesn’t tell us much about his executive abilities. While it looks that way, it certainly isn’t definitive. MBA from Harvard. That can be very important; then I have many ancestors who graduated in what was called the gentleman’s C class from that institution. Was his degree deserved? I really have to way of knowing.

For me, I will wait and see what he does. Then I will come to a conclusion. Apparently, you already have.

Yes, I think that the Supreme Court interference severly damaged the election process in the country. It created many cynics on both sides of the issue.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), April 24, 2001.


Hi, Z, understand what you are saying and agree on some points. But, don't you think that things were "running well" while Clinton was president, and I am assuming that you are referring to economically, (correct me if that's not the case) because of policies put in place by previous administrations? The only thing that I see Clinton did well was covering up his indiscretions, lying, and shedding crocodile tears when "close personal friends" turned up dead. I also see the repercussions of how the rest of the world views us as a nation now, which in my opinion is weak, and not a "super power" anymore. I dislike politicians in general, realize they are a necessary evil, and pray for our present leaders. I did not Clinton bash while he was in office, out of respect for the office and my country. Now that he is out, I feel aggravation with the Clinton supporter's hell-bent on bashing Bush, before he is barely out of the starting gate. I respect your decision to reserve comment until he has had more opportunity to prove himself or for you to form an oppinion. My questions were formed from articles I've read in mainstream media and yes, a bit of listening to Rush but, for the most part I have come to the conclusions I have through my own thought processes. It is not easy to ignore so many deaths connected with Bill& Hill.

-- Marg (okay@cutaway.com), April 24, 2001.

Marge:

Not easy to ignore so many deaths associated with Bill & Hill.

Then you have stuff like:

Bush Family

There is much worse on the web. I can verify some of this as true. But I am not so sure what it has to do with George W.

As I said, I will wait and see.

Best Wishes,,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), April 24, 2001.


Thanks, Z. I didn't like much about George Sr. but, as I stated before I don't like politicians in general. Thanks for that link and yes, I know some of that info going back to Prescott. I still am thrilled that Clinton is gone and George Jr. is in office and not Gore. I've made my oppinion because ANYTHING is better than Bill.

I am in upstate NY and having Hill as a senator here is a constant reminder of all of the things I hated about that era. I voted for Lazio, didn't know much about him, talked to him abit at a farm breakfast up here and was impressed with his directness. He seemed very interested in the farm industry up here and listened very carefully to my neighbors discussing ag problems , while at the same moment Hill was in a gay right's parade in the city. No contest as far as I was concerned.

I want to understand the appeal of our former prez and wife. I would like for someone to explain it to me.I want to know if this is all part of the dumbing down of America......

-- Marg (okay@cutaway.com), April 25, 2001.


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