Neighbors, I'm sure that everyone has noticed the abundance of "Live/Work" units that are going up in and around the Market Square area. (Built by Mitchell-Best and Parkwood Homes.) I live on Hart Rd. and have watched the construction over the course of the last year.

I have noticed two troubling things. The first is, Where are the patrons of these businesses going to park? There will definitely not be enough parking on the street for patrons and employees...and the street is the only parking available unless you park in the Fresh Fields/Michaels parking lot behind the Parkwood "Live/Works".

And, the second more important question is, If they are "Live/Work" units, doesn't this mean that the proprietor of the business on the main floor essentially lives above the business or leases to an individual or family that lives above the business? What I have noticed is that the owners of these units are trying to sub-let to 3 or more individual businesses to occupy every floor of the unit, not a "Live/Work" Essentially, making them into an office complex which will further aggravate the parking and change the original look and feel of what we thought they were to be used for.

Can anyone shed some light on these issues before I call up the City of Gaithersburg?

Thanks

-- Eric Martinis (emartinis@presidio.com), April 17, 2001

Answers

Eric:

I'm not sure that I agree with you. There is parking directly behind the live-works, and the overflow parking at Fresh Fields appears adequate and is not that far away (probably not much farther than if one had to park close to Crown Books to walk to Giant). Of course, this may not be true at a few peak times, but we'll have to see.

As a comparison, I cannot remember any time when all the parking in front of K-Mart has been completely filled, i.e. all the way down to the street that passes by the side of Lowes.

As far as the utilization of the live-works, I am not sure that I share your concern. The whole idea of Kentlands was to mix uses, to go back to the days when towns and villages combined residental, public and business uses. I am hoping that market conditions will result in a nice variety of shops and businesses that would serve the community and bring life to our streets and sidewalks.

-- Bob Mauri (newurban@erols.com), April 20, 2001.

Interesting comparisons, however, I live almost directly across the street from the live/works and it hits a little closer to home...and as is human nature, the majority of people patronizing establishments almost always look for parking right out front... to lessen the walk. I can guarantee you that 90% of the patrons will not park in back of the Parkwood Live/Works without first looking for an open spot next to the establishment. Look at the finished Parkwoods that house Salon Red, Hair Lox, etc. etc. On any given day the parking in front is horrendous. Their own employees don't park in the back. Take a look and you will see for yourself.

And hypothetically, let's say my wife desires to park in front of our home after going grocery shopping and needs to carry a newborn, 2 1/2 year old son, and 10 bags of groceries into the house...(and if you could see how much easier it is to use the front entrance instead of through the garage, the picture would be a little more clear) and there is no parking in front. Where would you suggest she parks? In the Fresh Fields parking lot? Or Michaels? ..and walk? Are these parking lots reserved for patrons of those establishments or are they for my home use too? Who pays for the snow removal in the winter and the overall upkeep? The city? The live/works? Or, in your example, the work/works?

I think the parking by K-mart and Lowes does not compare at all to what is going on here. How many townhouses, homes and apartments are immediately adjacent to K-Mart and Lowes? Bad Example. Maybe if the live/works had that kind of parking right out front, this would be a good example, but it is simply not the case.

I for one will humbly disagree with everything you have written.

-- Eric Martinis (emartinis@presidio.com), April 20, 2001.

I am a little confused here.

What are you going to ask the city when you call them?

You don't agree with Bob Mauri on his characterization of a "traditional neighborhood development"? What do you think a TND is supposed to be?

If you don't like the idea of mixed residential/commercial areas than I really think you have made a serious mistake in choosing where you live.

Frankly, what troubles me more than the live/work on Main Street is the lack of commercial establishments elsewhere in the Kentlands. If it had been up to me there would be corner stores (like the Greene's new store in Lakelands) and other retail places throughout the Kentlands.

-- Tom M (tmarches@juno.com), April 20, 2001.

"What are you going to ask the city when you call them? "

I am going to ask them to clarify why there are three to four businesses in each "Live/Work" unit. Or... Is this what was originally planned. Because when I moved here, the seller/builder of my home explained that there was a business in the ground floor and residences (the Live part) above. I am now concerned mostly about parking and if they have a solution. Because, it stands to reason that more commercial businesses, means more traffic. A solution could be Residential Permit parking on our side of the street. Before I called the City, I had hoped that this bulletin board could answer my question.

"What do you think a TND is?"

I have no problem with a TND, in fact, I was extremely happy with what was originally presented to me. My concern is are there plans for parking problems because of "Live/Works" becoming more like office complexes?

"Frankly, what troubles me more than the live/work on Main Street is the lack of commercial establishments elsewhere in the Kentlands.  If it had been up to me there would be corner stores (like the Greene's new store in Lakelands) and other retail places throughout the Kentlands."

GREAT IDEA! This would be wonderful, but again a poor example. This would be one business surrounded by homes. I am talking about a potential of over 40 businesses directly next to our homes.

-- Eric Martinis (emartinis@presidio.com), April 20, 2001.

Eric:

You say that there are "three or four businesses in each Live/Work

unit," so it would be useful for this discussion to get some facts.

Can you therefore clarify this for those of us who do not live as

close as you do to the stretch of Live/Works that you are referring to?

Can you name each Live/Work and tell us the number and nature of the

businesses in that unit? For example, how many other businesses

occupy Mary Charter's building? Salon Red? the other haircutting place

in the end unit?

Also, the approval process for the Live/Works took quite a while. One

would think that the City addressed the issue of the maximum number of

businesses. Does anyone know if indeed the City implemented any

restrictions?

-- Bob Mauri (newurban@erols.com), April 20, 2001.

My recollection is that the first floor is zoned retail or commercial on the first floor and the upper floors can be either residential or retail/commercial.

So far it does not look like very many of the businesses are high traffic businesses. The Red Salon and the Barber Shop might be an exception but the realtors and mortgage bankers are not apt to generate a lot of traffic. This would change, however, if some restaurants come in.

I would also think this would be particularly true of the second story businesses.

At some point there may need to be pointing out that there is parking in the rear. I would think that most people who knew there was parking there would actually prefer that to parking on Hart Street.

-- Tom Marchessault (tmarches@juno.com), April 21, 2001.

Eric has a very legitimate concern. Whether we want to admit it or not, the entire retail area of the Kentlands Shopping Plaza and MidTown was not very well planned, and there are several "facts" we can point to to substantiate this... - The number of chains (with substantial planning and site selection groups) that have considered coming here based on the demographics and then decided not to come. - The number of stores that have come in and then failed - Current occupancy, or more appropriately vacancy, rate - The fact that "Parking Enforcement" units of the Gaithersburg Police now routinely patrol MidTown and ticket cars during the week

It is only human nature that we tend to remember the good parts of "the old downtowns" and forget about the rest. Compound that, with the fact that most of the people planning these re-enactments of the "old downtowns" never actually spent a day of their life living in an apartment above a store on a city street somewhere, and we have a recipe for disaster that is only made worse by having residential PUD architects designing retail shopping districts.

We are actually very lucky that MidTown has truned out as great as it presently is. In large part, we owe the success of this area to few merchants who were willing to take huge risks and make large investments of their personal assets in developing some very cool concepts.

We need to be willing to be look at our failures and try to fix them though if we are going to expanmd that success. The two big failures we have today are very simple to see: - There are inadequate pedestrian pathways between shopping areas and stores (I challenge anyone to tell me they would "enjoy a walk from K- Mart to MidTown) - There is inadequate parking in Midtown

We need to be willing to look at these failings, admit that what we have is good, but needs improving, and then take the next steps. One such step may well be going to the city and asking for a reveiw of the current zoning, how it was applied for, and what the assumptions provided in that application were.

If the zoning application claimed that these would be "Live-Work" units with residential space above commercial space, and the assumptions about the required parking spaces being built were developed based on those claims, then I think there is a legitimate cause for going back to those permits and revisiting their validity/approval.

Certainly, if I built my home saying it was going to be a single family residence, and then proceeded to divide it into three or four condos instead, the Kentlands HOA would drag me into court without a moment's hesitation. The developer has to be held to the same standard.

JP

-- Joe Paiva (jpaiva@bconvergent.net), April 23, 2001.

In response to Mr. Mauri's questions:

"You say that there are "three or four businesses in each Live/Work unit," so it would be useful for this discussion to get some facts."

No, What I said was that in the newly built live/works, their is a potential of 3 to 4 businesses. Even an average of 2 each, it seems like the parking will become a problem.

"Can you therefore clarify this for those of us who do not live as close as you do to the stretch of Live/Works that you are referring to?"

New Parkwoods and Mitchell Best facing the Market Street Pavilion.

"Can you name each Live/Work and tell us the number and nature of the businesses in that unit? For example, how many other businesses occupy Mary Charter's building? Salon Red? the other haircutting place in the end unit?"

Only one of these units has 3 businesses in it and the parking is bad, can you imagine what it would be like if each unit had three businesses? ...and, this is only one row of live/works, there are two more larger rows in the process of being finished and occupied.

"Also, the approval process for the Live/Works took quite a while. One would think that the City addressed the issue of the maximum number of businesses. Does anyone know if indeed the City implemented any restrictions?"

I did call the City on Friday, they did not implement any restrictions, but the person I spoke to said that they are aware of the parking situation and acknowledge that it was not planned very well and they are going to have to do something about it.

-- Eric Martinis (emartinis@presidio.com), April 23, 2001.

I think that JP is coming down a little too hard on the people involved in planning Kentlands. I assume that he is referring to the new urbanists like Duany and Plater-Zyberk and also Chevy Chase Bank, the developer by default after Joseph Alfandre had to walk away. The original shopping area across from what is now Kentlands Blvd. was supposed to be an upscale regional mall, with a "seamless connection" to the residential areas. With the poor economic conditions of the early 1990s, such a mall was not feasible, hence the current Kentlands Square. You could say that we got only what the market would permit at the time.

We have also been the victim of some national firms going belly up, such as Uptons and MJ Design. This was totally beyond the control of anyone in the community. (By the way, Zany Brainy is currently having trouble with at least one of its creditors, and its stock has been down to as low as 18 cents per share and in danger of being delisted from NASDAQ.)

Parking always seems to be a contentious issue. There are those who believe there is never enough parking. I look behind these live/work units and see a substantial number of spaces, plus scores more spaces in the expanse between the upcoming Fresh Fields and Michaels. I think that it premature to say that there is not enough parking in Midtown. We'll just have to see how things evolve.

Some of you oldtimers might remember the meetings we had with the City about the size of the parking lot at the Recreation Center when it was being planned. The lot is deliberately small because that's what the majority of the residents wanted. The City was inclined to approve a lot with substantially more spaces. The community felt that there would be adequate street parking to compensate, even if some had to walk a block or two during peak season.

I think that in that case we made the right decision.

-- Bob Mauri (newuban@erols.com), April 23, 2001.

"With the poor economic conditions of the early 1990s, such a mall was not feasible, hence the current Kentlands Square. You could say that we got only what the market would permit at the time."

Reston Town Center is an example of excellent planning and continuous planning.

"Parking always seems to be a contentious issue. There are those who believe there is never enough parking. I look behind these live/work units and see a substantial number of spaces, plus scores more spaces in the expanse between the upcoming Fresh Fields and Michaels."

Did you look behind the Mitchell/Best units? There is an alley.

"Some of you oldtimers might remember the meetings we had with the City about the size of the parking lot at the Recreation Center when it was being planned. The lot is deliberately small because that's what the majority of the residents wanted. The City was inclined to approve a lot with substantially more spaces. The community felt that there would be adequate street parking to compensate, even if some had to walk a block or two during peak season.

I think that in that case we made the right decision."

You're right, you made the right decision for a community center where users are paid members of the community and can anticipate approximately how much traffic will be generated by a formula that takes into account how many residents there are. What is at issue here is commercial businesses and parking generated by not only Kentlands residents (who may walk) but by residents from all over the County.

-- Eric Martinis (emartinis@presidio.com), April 24, 2001.

I would just like to note that in the case of Salon Red, the unit is functioning exactly as intended - as a live/work unit.

-- claudia salzberg (claudia_salzberg@yahoo.com), April 24, 2001.

I agree with those who predict bad parking problems at the live-work units. My law partner and I seriously considered moving our 2100 sq. foot office from College Park to Midtown, as we both live in the Kentlands, and this move would eliminate a significant commute. In November, we spoke at length with the dentist (O'Brian?) who has the corner unit near the Red Salon, who was looking to lease the top two floors (and still is, by the way). We abandoned the plan for timing reasons, as the space could not be readied fast enough for our needs. But doing the math, I was alarmed at the impact just our office would make on the parking.

We have 5 attorneys in our practice and 5 support staff. Even if the two partners walked to work every day (assuming we didn't need our cars to leave the office for court, etc.), that's 8 cars associated with our business even before the first client walks through the door. Conduct a simple deposition, now you need parking for a plaintiff, a defendant, one or more opposing attorneys and a court reporter. And all of this would be going on over top of the downstairs dental practice, with its own staff and patients impacting the parking.

As you know these units have but two reserved spots and then the general parking area behind those buildings. When we spoke to the unit owner about arrangements that might be made to allow overflow or employee parking over at Michaels, he could give us no assurance that such an arrangement would ever be reached. In my view, if even half of the live-work units go commercial on every floor, the parking in that area will be a nightmare.

-- Howard Simcox (SussmanSimcox@aol.com), April 25, 2001.

I grew up in just such an area as Gaithersburg is trying to create with the live-work units in Kentlands. But we didn't realize that we had anything nearly as glamorous as a live-work unit. We thought we "lived over the store."

And yes, we had all the problems that these units appear to have. Parking was always at a premium (particularly considering that there was no lot for 25 to 30 cars directly behind the building) and traffic was always both plentiful and dangerous. Yet commerce still thrived, we all looked out for our neighbors, the schools were great, and the neighborhood was safe and stable. The only thing we were missing then that we seem to have plenty of now was zoning.

-- David Fetzer (dfetzer@starpower.net), April 25, 2001.

Face it, Kentlands/Lakelands is just a Disneyland farce to convince the local government to approve high density development without forcing the developer to pay for new roads that are needed to get residents to shopping/work. Almost no one in Kentlands/Lakelands can walk to the grocery store, dry cleaner, restaurant, take-out, etc. Also since there is no real public transportation accessible (do you think any of the people who purchased Gaithersburg houses at Potomac/Rockville prices would ever ride a bus to get to the Metro?) so trips generated/household are the same as in a conventionally designed comunity with the same density.

If you want to live in a community that embodies the spirit of the TND concept, try King Farm. It is located within walking distance from the Metro, you can walk to a shopping center with a full sized grocery store, there are lots of office buildings going up adjacent for residents can work, and in the near future the Car Dealers on Rockville Pike will be bought out when upscale shopping like in Chevy Chase (Macys is looking to make its entrance into Mongomery County nearby with a new shopping center) comes in (because of the proximity to Metro). So what if Cedar Shake Roofs are not required, they are no good anyway because if a portion of the roof is damaged the whole roof has to be replaced because of the color differences.

-- George Evans (george.evans@hotmail.com), August 19, 2001.