Personal View/moral : LUSENET : Countryside : One Thread

Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem. And we said, an expert should know what he's talking about, so we won't spank them anymore.. ~~~~~~~~~~~THEN~~~~~~~~~~~~ Someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. And the school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued. And we accepted their reasoning.. ~~~~~~~~~~~THEN~~~~~~~~~~~~ Someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said, that's a grand idea.. ~~~~~~~~~~~THEN~~~~~~~~~~~~ Some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want, so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school. And we said, that's another great idea.. ~~~~~~~~~~~THEN~~~~~~~~~~~~ Some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. And agreeing with them, we said it doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as I have a job and the economy is good. ~~~~~~~~~~~THEN~~~~~~~~~~~~ Someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women and call it wholesome down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said we have no problem with that. ~~~~~~~~~~~THEN~~~~~~~~~~~~ Someone else took that appreciation a step further and published pictures of children and then stepped further still by making them available on the Internet. And we said they're entitled to their free speech. ~~~~~~~~~~~THEN~~~~~~~~~~~~ The entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, and illicit sex. And let's record music that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, and nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead.. ~~~~~~~~~~~AND NOW~~~~~~~~~~~~ We're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves? ~~~~~~~~~~~PROBABLY~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~If we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with... "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In light of the recent shooting in Michigan, Dear God: "Why didn't you save the little girl in Michigan?"

Sincerely, Concerned Student AND THE REPLY........

Dear Concerned Student: "I am not allowed in schools."

Sincerely, God

-- Kathy (, April 01, 2001


Thats a nice sentiment Kathy and I actually agree with most of the points made in your post. But what if "God" was allowed in schools? Whose God? Would a wiccan coven be allowed to assemble on school property, just as bible study groups presumably would be? How about Buddhists, Hindus, Muslems etc? Seriously, I'd really like to hear some responses to that question.

I suspect in your heart of hearts your first response to that question would be "NO! only Christian activities" and if thats the case, there's the rub.

Personally I think thats the only way God should be allowed in. There is wisdom,value and holiness in those religions named, as well as others, as there is in Christianity. Once that little piece of reality sinks in for all of us maybe we can all start getting along and appreciating other people and their ways.

-- john (, April 01, 2001.

I doubt G-d is going to save our schools! The social problems we see in schools are directly related to the problems within the family system and society. Morality begins to develop at a young age--by the time children enter school the most crucial part of moral development has already passed. While children need to continue to receive moral instruction, the basics need to be laid down very early on in development.

Also, I agree with the question, "which G-d?" Are children going to pray in Hebrew? Will they meditate in front of a statue of Buddah? Will they honor Hindu gods? What translation of the Bible will be read aloud--Will it be the Torah, or will it be the King James version. Will children pray toward Mecca? You cannot satisfy everyone, therefore it simply won't work... Thank G-d for parochial schools and homeschooling--this is the way we bring G-d into education.

-- amy (, April 01, 2001.

I agree with the above posts. I also believe that school systems will continue to fail. Possibly if parents start to raise their children with usable living skills, respect, morals, pride of a good days work and their own person beliefs, (religious or otherwise) only then can school's get down to some english, math, history, geography, etc. Of course the government would have to let parents raise their children first.

-- Marie (, April 01, 2001.

Well John most of the tenets of the non christian religions are now taught in schools."Diversity training."As far as wiccans and other earth/godess worshipers.Ever look at a group of high schoolers lately? Take that same group of goths etc. and put tshirts with judeo- christian teachings or trappings on them and see who gets chucked out of school or sent for psycological counceling.Christians really are being persecuted.And before you figure I must be one of the fundies.I am not.I am a back slid catholic that doesn't believe much of anything any more.I do have eyes that can see though.

-- greg (, April 01, 2001.

Greg, I beg to differ. I haven't seen the Koran or Buddhist tenets taught in any schools where I am. I believe that you are referring to some non-secular beliefs that tend to conflict with christian religious beliefs. Hey, they conflict with other organized religious beliefs too.

-- Anne (, April 01, 2001.

It seems obvious that religious practice/indoctrination has no place in the schools; its a private thing and should have nothing to do with the government.

I have never spanked my children their entire lives, and they are the most loving, respectful, well-adjusted kids I know. They are good decent people not because of fear from repercussions, but because it would never occur to them to do something that would harm themselves, their future, or me.

Since I do not find it necessary to hit my own children, I most assuredly would not permit it being done by anyone else. Hoever, the dictums about not 'touching' children are ludicrous. Young children, especially need lots of touching.

If a parent has such a lousy relationship with their daughter that she would feel a need to have an abortion without even her parents knowledge, there are serious problems in the home that no laws are going to correct.

If a parent has such a disconnected relationship with their son that he would disrespect himself and his potential partners to "have all the fun they desire", then stopping the school from handing out condoms will not alleviate the problem.

If what adults do in private is kept private, rather than being dragged through the media for all the world to see, or legislated by an intrusive government, then this would never be an issue.

Art in the form of the nude human body has always been with us; it does not by its existance have to be prurient. Connecting nudity with child pornography is I feel unfair and reactionary.

I agree with you about profanity and violence in the media! :) However, once again I see nothing wrong with sexuality as long as it doesnt involve children. My children are more prudish than even I am about such things; they have no desire to watch violence, turn off movies when the language becomes a boring chorus of four-letter words, and have always honored our values about media that makes sexual activity among minors appear to be the norm.

I think these issues all center on the home. Sadly, many children are not well-parented, mostly by people who were treated similarly. It doesn't make them bad people, but it causes our whole culture to suffer, for we give little or no assistance to this issue. Children don't learn how to be happy, productive and loving adults by being spanked, threatened or humiliated. They don't become law abiding citizens because of the fear of prison. They learn it by being treated with respect, being always assured of the perfection that they are and everyone else is, and that lesson comes from the hearth, from those to whose nurturance and guidance they have been entrusted. We do indeed reap what we sow.


-- Earthmama (, April 01, 2001.

Greg, children are being exposed to "diversity' in the schools, but that isn't such a bad thing. I taught my son's class about Chanukah and I can't think of anything I said that was "anti-Christian." I grew up in a community where I was made fun of for being Jewish, and once I was even called a "Christ Killer" on the school bus by the child of ignorant parents. In those days nobody discussed culture or diversity. Maybe if someone had taught my classmates about differences that awful girl would have thought twice about blaming me for the death of Jesus! If my lesson on Chanukah traditions opened up the eyes of children to diversity and cultural tolerance, then I think I carried out quite a good moral deed-and I did it without bashing other religions or even discussing dogma. I should also mention that my son's teacher is a Presbyterian minister (he has two jobs!)--it must be very hard for him to only teach secular studies. However, I sense he invited me in to teach about Jewish culture because of his link to Judeo-Christian values.

-- amy (, April 02, 2001.

In Texas, if you leave marks on your child, it is child abuse and the children may well be taken from you. If the school personnel beat your child, it is their legal right and there is no law that will be used against them. You may or may not (probably not) win in a court of law if you file a civil suit. As for religion in schools, there is still plenty of school prayer here. There is also plenty of teenage pregnancy, rape, drug use, theft, etc. All the troubles of the world are still alive and well despite prayer, which is always and only Christian prayer by the way. The difference is primarily in the home. If the parents are drunk, getting high, theiving from work or friends or neighbors, etc., or watching porn tapes, or like some people I know, having group sex after the children are supposedly in bed and asleep, but in the same house, what do you expect? They can be dragged/sent to church from now on, and which lifestyle do you suppose they are most likely to choose? Yes, the government does interfere. It is the people of the United States that have allowed the government to interfere, and it is the people of the United States that have allowed the lifestyles criticized to develop. It is the people of the United States that are buying the drugs and paying for the porn movies, and watching the crap that is put out on the television. It is the people of the United States that have allowed all this stuff to happen. Why? Because they LIKE to live that way. Because it is the easier path. Because the moral majority is really a minority. Because a lot of this stuff was going on all the time, we just didn't have the media to shove it in our faces and it was easier to ignore. Because when people DID do those things, they had common decency to not do it in public. As for the school shootings, I don't think religion or the lack thereof has anything to do with it. I think it is caused by the general lack of emotional attachment to any one and love from any one caused by families that are scattered and parents that have too little time for their children, or who MAKE too little time, as well as the general stress from living in too closely confined areas with too little break time in it. If you worked day in day out in a place with no windows, no breaks, guards at the door, and someone waiting to criticize you constantly for months on end, you would snap too. It is the system itself that is causing the school shootings. Not religion or the lack of it.

-- Green (, April 02, 2001.

Green, good point. The schools are beyond fixing in my opinion. My children attend elementary school for now, but they probably will be homeschooled (again) in the near future. The other day I watched our elementary school principal deal with two students who argued on the playground-- by taking away their kickball privileges. She didn't listen to what either child had to say-- instead she made them feel all the more powerless by giving them the message that children have no feelings nor a right to express them. Both children left her office feeling angry and demoralized. What lessons do the children get from this adult? Where do they channel their anger? How do they learn to treat each others with respect if the school officials don't treat them with respect? So, we cannot expect the schools to foster good values, ethics or morals because the very adults that work in those schools may themselves be inept at dealing with these issues. There will be a rare few adults that care, but if the leaders stink then the whole system suffers.

-- amy (, April 02, 2001.

Amy, glad you had the chance to teach.As far as any thing being strictly christian etc.I always thought that jews,christians and muslims venerated the same God.They sure can shed each others blood over who does it the right way.Being jewish I'm sure you have heard of a fellow named Moses.Remember those tablets he was given?Send your kid to school wearing a t-shirt with the ten commandments on it.See what happens.Someone meantioned that the koran was not being studied in school along with buddism.In my area buddism yes.Islam no.Remember the roots of islam that is why it is not covered.Also we seem to be on an Arab bashing cycle again so it would not be a good thing to make them seem too human.You know the same way that Nazi's dehumanized and demonized the jews.Quiz question... Anyone know what the word Nazi is an a abreviation of? If you said "National SOCIALIST" you win a cookie!If you had the idea that I am somehow agianst children being taught about different religions in school I am not.What I am against is indoctrination and hypocracy.If you look at what is happening in our public schools in the aggregate and don't see a pattern and an agenda emerging you are not being intellectually honest.Hiding biggotry under the word diversity pisses me off.Orwell was on to something.

-- greg (, April 02, 2001.

to quote someone who just turned 93 today: "pityful... jest pitiful..."

-- Action Dude (, April 02, 2001.

Greg, in Texas a child is free to wear religious T-shirts, necklaces and the like. The problem would come if a teacher were giving these out, or making the kids wear them. If a teacher deems the T-shirt to be disruptive than the child must wear the T-shirt inside out, or change clothes. I am up at our school alot, I find the baggy pants with no hems to be alot more distasteful than anything else the kids wear. Alot like my folks hated my pants on my hips and wearing jeans every single day. I think the common thread running on this forum is that we have a whole group of folks who have forgotten what it is like to be young, rebelious and making the statement "I am not my parents". The homeschooled kids will do it also, and hopefully they have been given the tools to deal with it. I do worry about homeschooled kids being so sheltered (very few street smarts)that they will make very easy targets in College. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (, April 02, 2001.

Greg, are you speaking of political correctness masked as "diversity?" PC is dangerous for sure and is a mask for bigotry and reverse discrimination, in my opinion. I don't know if my children would get in trouble for wearing a shirt with the 10 commandments, but I'm tempted to try it and see! :-) As for Islam, what is unacceptable about Islam's roots for it not to be taught in "diversity' programs?

-- amy (, April 02, 2001.

Vicki, Why do you think homeschooled children would be "sheltered?" I actually think it is more sheltering to go to the same building every day being told what to do and how to think (while adhering to a prescribed curriculum) than to be out in the community interacting with people and events on a daily basis. We homeschooled in the past, lived abroad, traveled a great deal--my children are probably more closed from the world now, as they attend a small, homogenous rural community school, than when when we homeschooled! I don't think we can generalize that homeschooling is sheltering, as it depends on the situation and philosophy of the family doing the homeschooling. I know I'm off topic, but had to respond to your comment.

-- amy (, April 02, 2001.

I second Earthmama and Green! I am studying to become a high school teacher. I have been warned not to touch a student - for my OWN protection. I've also been taught that individualized, responsive teaching by someone who knows the material is hands-down the most effective method. Small class sizes (from 1 to 8 or 10 students) are ideal. Each child should have their own advocate within the learning environment. Sounds like home-schooling to me! Unfortunately too many families cannot (or will not or SHOULD not) home school. We have public schooling to make sure that we have an educated citizenry. I, for one, will be there in the classroom to do my best to improve the opportunities for every child I can influence.

-- Deborah (, April 02, 2001.

Amy, I was refering to Political correctness being masked as "diversity".Islam recognises Abraham and his covenent.Just as Jews do.Just as christians do.(some christians will argue that the old covenents don't matter because Jesus was the "new' covenent)Hence shitheads saying things like christ killer to jews.Jesus was Jewish folks!Getting back to Islam they see themselves as of the line of Ishmael.Which brings us back to Abraham.Which brings us to a monotheistic religion with a strong moral code.There is very little moral relativism in the Torah,Bible,or Koran.All these religions come from a one common root.Hence no koran in school.You know on the whole I like talking about technical questions and animal husbandry.That seems to get controversial too.The original post did not seem all that offencive to me.It was one opinion of many and represented the origional authors personal opinion and observation.I saw nothing dogmatic about it.Maybe I'm practicing the wrong kind of "tolerance"

-- greg (, April 02, 2001.

Deborah,You may be in for an argument that public schools=educated citizenry.I hope you are able to make a difference.Indoctrinated does not equate with educated to me.Good luck in your avocation.

-- greg (, April 02, 2001.

"In light of the recent shooting in Michigan, Dear God: "Why didn't you save the little girl in Michigan?" Sincerely, Concerned Student AND THE REPLY........

Dear Concerned Student: "I am not allowed in schools."

What about another little girl in Michigan, 12-year old Tempest Smith? Every day her so-called "Christian" classmates tormented her about her Gothic-style clothing and her Wiccan religious beliefs, circling around her chanting hymns and bible verses and telling her she was going to hell. Tempest committed suicide on Feb 20th of this year. Her tormenters have not been disciplined, because school officials "don't want to make the children feel bad about what happened". How much do you want to bet that if the religious choices had been reversed, those children would have been expelled by now?

Tolerance would be wonderful, but most days we just have to settle for survival.

-- Sherri C (, April 02, 2001.

Well SherriC, I'll bite.You are comparing apples and oranges.Good try though because dead children always makes for high emotions.The six year old that was shot was MURDERED!She had no CHOICE.The 12 year old that you speak about commited SUICIDE(self murder)There was a CHOICE NOT TO do it.I rather doubt that either wiccans or "christians" would have been punished because it seems that it is ok these days to harrass anyone that deviates from the the "norm".Bullying is ok because it creates ther kind of conformity that our state indoctrination centers want.It was a sick perversian that these kids were harrasing the this wiccan child with bible quotes and threats of eternal damnation.(ain't zealots grand)I don't think it was religious zeal that prompted it but rather made a good weapon to bludgeon the girl with psycologicaly.All I can say about it is I would have been the kid suspended for pounding the shit out of her harrasers.That said I will play devil's(God's?) advocate and say that at least in Judeo-Christian morality suicide is a sin.I think it is an offence against the "goddess" the universe, et al as well.I don't know if exposure to this tenet of faith would have caused this child to reconsider or not.We won't know.I do feel that causing such a person so much pain and despair to kill her self will carry a high price for the harrassers.Putting on or using the trappings of a religion,in this case christianity doesn't make one a christian any more than my putting on a dress makes me a woman.This response was not made in meaness SherriC.

-- greg (, April 02, 2001.

Greg, so you are saying that the Koran isn't acknowledged in 'diversity' education because most folk don't even know the link of Islam to Abraham? I wonder if the average person even realizes Moslems recognize all prophets, including Jewish and Christian prophets. I knew that but sure never learned it in school! Re: the original post, no it wasn't offensive in the least, just controversial. Any topic can become controversial--all it takes is two people to passionately disagree!

-- amy (, April 02, 2001.

Amy,I can't speak for every program(or pogrom)in every school in every state.The koran is a tough nut because many moslems feel it should only be read in arabic.Hard to find an english translation.Also I think there is latent racism involved.Remember the heady days of the gulf war?Go to an inner city school with black moslems and you may find the koran.Go to rural white bread towns and you probably will not.Probably won't find the torah either.What I am observing is a general trend for comparitive religion classes and "diversity" programs to ignore monotheistic religions.Specificallly Judeao-Christian beliefs.I include Islam in this group.By ignoring them it does pass judgement.One less sinister explaination for this may be because it is assumed children are exposed to these faiths outside of the classroom.In reality they may not be.On a sinister note Judeao-Christian tenets don't leave much room for moral relativism.I think a lack of SOME sort of moral compass is what is lacking in schools and society in general.We are guaranteed freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion.This is a Republic where every one gets a voice not just the largest voting block.I don't have an answer to the dilema of the Atheist that tells everyone else to shutup because He doesn't believe in God or little tree sprites.I can ask just whom is being intolorent of whom though.

-- greg (, April 02, 2001.

Greg: I actually agree with you regarding Christians being "persecuted" in the schools, as are non-christians by the Christians, as evidenced by the Tempest Smith incident.

Someone commented about there's no way to satisfy all so why try to satisfy any. Here's what to me would be a very reasonable compromise.

Truth telling, non-thievery, kindness, compassion, non-agression, self control, diligence etc are not specifically Christian values as they are widely accepted as part of the vast majority of the world religions and not exclusive to any. Things like these don't need a religious wrapping to be acceptable and I would much sooner see that in school than nothing and it seems thats the choice----all or nothing

-- john (, April 02, 2001.

John,The circle closes and is complete.I concur with you.Part of the problem is all or nothing thinking.Do unto others as you would have done unto you is good advice no matter who or what is given credit for it.Cheers

-- greg (, April 02, 2001.

Greg, now I understand your explanation. Come to think of it, there isn't much mention of Islam in our community. As for Judaism, the only reason people here know Jews is because we live 90 miles from NYC. I doubt the children here have ever met a Muslim. Thank goodness we were exposed a lot to Islam--we traveled a great deal when we lived in the UK, visited one Moslem country, had many Arab neighbors in London. I believe my children are fortunate to have had this experience.

-- amy (, April 03, 2001.

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