There was another school shooting. This one was just 6 miles from the school where the fatal shooting took place in California last week. This young man (18) was supposedly picked on and unpopular too. Thankfully there were no casualties. There is one young man listed in serious condition but it isn't considered life threatening. Several others were injured. I'm sure the news story is on the opening page of most folks browsers. I believe the old saying of 'wake up and smell the coffee' is very appropriate here. Just how violent are our schools going to get before some radical action is taken to insure the safety of our children? Amanda (a very thankful homeschooling mom)

-- Amanda in Mo (aseley@townsqr.com), March 23, 2001

Answers

This happened at the school my nephew attends. He's fine but was very scared.

Stacy Rohan in Windsor, NY

-- Stacy Rohan (KincoraFarm@aol.com), March 23, 2001.

As a teacher you can bet I'm worried about all the violence in the schools, but now I'm going to tell you something you don't know......

I don't know about other states but in Missouri alone there were 9 cases of school violence that DIDN'T make the newspaper. How do I know this??? I recently took a workshop put on by Columbia University called EMERGENCY RESPONSE TO TERRORISM AND VIOLENCE IN THE SCHOOLS.

The following were not reported to the news media: St. Charles County, MO. Pipe Bombs

Macon, Mo. Pipe Bombs

St. Louis County, Mo. Pipe Bombs

St. Louis County, Mo. Gasoline Bomb

Kansas City, Mo. Commercial Grade Fireworks

St. Louis County, MO. Fireworks

Taney County, MO. Pipe Bomb

St. Louis County, Mo. Explosives

Kansas City, Mo. Pipe Bomb

Howell County, MO. Firearm in Locker

Most of these things were found in empty lockers or bathrooms and found by school personal. Doesn't this just ascare you to pieces. sally

-- sally stanton (mallardhen67@hotmail.com), March 23, 2001.

Stacy, so sorry to hear about your nephew, I hope he gets over his shakeup very soon. imagine something like that leaves scars long into a person's life. It's a shame. Our prayers are with those families. xxx Amanda, I know what you mean. When I consider the average high school, with those tiny little freshmen...children, as you refer to them... contrasted with an 18 year old, almost adult mind and body, more determined, more outspoken, more intent on who knows WHAT... I am reminded of the Socialization thread. What's really important, here, after all ?!?

-- Action Dude (theactiondude@yahoo.com), March 23, 2001.

If you watch the news very carefully you will see a pretty two story house with horse arena and pastures. This is my Mom's house and where the police set up their office and used her phones. Pretty bad when I have to get off the line with my Mom for the police to use the phone :)

Schools are no more or less violent from when I went to Granite Hills! It is simply the access to guns, in my day 1971 to 1975, it was chains, brass nuckles, knifes and fists. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), March 23, 2001.

Vicki,

It is simply the access to guns...

Im not sure where you were intending to go with that. If you are trying to point out that the problem is being caused by ridiculous gun laws and fewer adults carrying than back then, then I think you might be on to at least part of it.

-- William in Wi (gnarledmaw@lycos.com), March 23, 2001.

The young punk in this case was stopped because someone else had a gun. Is there a message here?

-- Rick Powell (rpowell@email.ccis.edu), March 23, 2001.

William, my point was very simply that when we fought at school there wasn't the access in our homes of guns. Though I know my Mom had a gun, I certainly never would have looked for it. Though I was taught to shoot I certainly wouldn't have picked the gun up without an adult giving it to me. In fact in no home that I know of, were guns in plain site, other than perhaps in a gun case for diplay. 26 years later and in Texas, I have a 22 rifle propped up at my back door, their is ammo just sitting in boxes next to my bed. My husband keeps a small handgun on his business truck, I have a 22 handgun that all my kids (16, 18, 23) know exactly where it is. There is also shotguns and a deer rifle. And every home I know of is just like this. I have often thought how different our lives are going to be when we have grandchildren, we certainly have lost our child proofed home of yesteryear. When there is a shooting at a school like this, we have talked about putting up the guns, it never goes much further than that though the hand guns are locked up, but what good is my 22 rifle or the shotgun locked up when we may need them in the middle of the night for the damn dogs that folks allow to run free? The scarriest thought is, all my sons friends homes are like this but one, what if it is our gun taken for the shooting because they know my schedule and the dogs? Same thread what if he stole a hunting knife and killed someone? You could talk yourself in circles! I really have no clear opinion on gun control, since I can eaisly see both sides of the street. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), March 23, 2001.

Vicki - as we speak I have a .357 on my belt. I have found that the chicken-killing fox is less than attentive when I implore "Hold on a minute! I need to go inside and get my gun!" In fact, he seems to pay no attention, and if he does hear and understand me, that may explain the one-fingered royal salute he proffers! I strongly suspect that any human perp would react similarly. Hence my decision that on my belt is a good place to keep it. And not only has it not been stolen, but no life form has even attempted such a foolish procedure. Perhaps my attitude stems from my training in the USCG, whose motto is "Semper Paratus" (Always Prepared). Nonetheless, should some low-life attempt to do unkind things to me or mine, I suspect I am good enough to introduce "it" to St. Peter, and will not hesitate to do so. GL!

-- Brad (homefixer@SacoRiver.net), March 23, 2001.

Mind a Canadian point of view, guys? Yes, it's the guns. You can't run around and stab 14 people in a school before you're caught (I don't think). BUT (and a big one), the "gun culture" has changed. Why? 24 hour tv, CNN-ization, movies on tape (and pay channels) into the home that my parents NEVER would have allowed me to see in the '70's. From my vantage point, the "gun culture" has changed from the hunters, those protecting themselves (but not using), and the stereotypical "good ole boys" using possums and tin cans for target practice. These people, for the most part, respect guns and human life. Now it's young ones with no self-esteem, a chip on their shoulder, and a point to make. These aren't NRA card-carrying members. These are kids, and now it's "cool to be packin' ". Just my two cents.

-- Rheba (rbeall@etown.net), March 23, 2001.

The "gun culture" hasn't changed. Society at large and respect for life with assured consequences for your actions has changed. Some people don't care one bit that they might be taking a life. It's disposable. I grew up with guns in the house and we DID NOT touch them...on pain of consequence. It never even occurred to me to pull a gun, nor did it occur to any of my friends whose parents also had guns. For a good example of gun control look at Nazi Germany and the more recent crime rate in Australia. Then for the positive side look at Virgin Utah and a town in GA where every home is REQUIRED to have a gun and look at Switzerland. Very little crime. Almost none.

The next thing that happens at a high school will be a bombing and everyone will cry out for gun control just like the OKC bombing. Did you all catch that two 8 year olds were being detained for playing cops and robbers with PAPER guns? Did you catch that LA city council has decided to make virtually all guns illegal? Once the gun control is implemented in this country there will be no freedom anywhere. It will be very ugly. That is a promise. Cold, dead hands.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), March 23, 2001.

Very well said Rheba!! ......Kirk

-- Kirk Davis (kirkay@yahoo.com), March 23, 2001.

I find it greatly interesting that Canada gets the same movies and TV programs that we get here in the US. My friends and relatives in Canada frequently joke with me that they have already seen the next week's episode before it is even aired for me to see.

Finland also has as many guns per person as we do in the US.

Why don't they have the shooting sprees that we do? They're not walking around armed 24 hours a day. Their children are going to public schools the same as ours are. I haven't heard a thing about a school shooting taking place in Finland. How about Canada? Other than the one copy-cat shooting that took place shortly after Columbine, I am not hearing about these mass shootings taking place anywhere in Canada.

Is it because the people in these other countries are politer than we are? Is it because they haven't been allowed to think that their rights supercede those of others? It seems to me evident in all too many cases that as soon as someone in the US perceives that their 'right' has been thwarted, that they react violently, to physically FORCE their right/will on the weaker -- Might Makes Right.

The kids in Canada are getting the same message from movies and TV that our children are as far as violence etc goes, is it because they have learned that living at close quarters with the most powerful country in the world -- and well aware what it's like to have to lie next to that sleeping bear -- that diplomacy is better?

Maybe we need more diplomats.

-- julie f. (rumplefrogskin@excite.com), March 24, 2001.

Well, Julie, I'm not sure what the answer is as to why it's not happening in other countries, like it is in the US. Here are a few things that may be contributing factors: 1. most Canadians don't feel they need, or keep, guns for protection from people 2. I don't believe it's legal to own a handgun in Canada 3. with the exception of criminals and the police, guns in Canada consist of rifles or shotguns, for hunting and protecting livestock or family from wild animals 4. (don't quote me) I don't believe the rapid-fire style guns are legal here or as easily available 5. rifles or shotguns are harder to hide and get into a school 6. Canada's pop. is about 30 million, the US's about 265 mil.(?) 7. in general, the police are still respected in Canada We've had our share of school shootings. In the early 90's(?), 14 young women (engineering students) were murdered at a Ecole Polytechnique, a Quebec university. The murderer was a potential, but unaccepted engineering student I believe. A few weeks ago, a family member tipped off the police that there may be a shooting at a university in Alberta. The police got him (expelled student) before he could shoot anyone. Since the New Year, there are two bomb incidents that I'm aware of: one at a high school in Hearst, a small northern Ontario town, and one in Abbotsford, BC, where we used to live. Yet you never hear of it in the national news. Makes you wonder how many there really are. Maybe many of us in Canada try to keep our kids on Barney, Arthur, and Scooby Doo longer, instead of "pro" wrestling, the Sopranos, and Gerry Springer. Canada's entertainment export consists mainly of children's tv (non-violent). Hollywood's entertainment export consists mainly of shooting, car chases, and blood and gore. Just some thoughts. Too bad we don't have any definitive solutions.

-- Rheba (rbeall@etown.net), March 24, 2001.

Is it because of guns? Easy access to guns? No. We've had guns and 'easy access' to guns for over 200 yrs. in this country, and for almost 140 before gun laws were enacted. So What HAS Changed?

How about families? How about the way we raise our children? You have a decent family raising a decent child. You have a mix of other kids who think they're God's gift to the world, and they dominate and terrorize the weaker kids. Now, in the 'old' days parents could go to the 'gifted' kids' parents and tell them to knock it off, and the parents' USUALLY confronted and took care of the bully. Today, the bully's parents deny their child has a problem, the kid is asking for it, because he's 'different'.That is, IF the kid has a relationship with his folks that say they really know or care HOW he feels, what's going on his life, etc. A lot of these kids are living in the nice comfortable middle class homes who are shooters. But, Mom and Dad, if they're still married, are busy. With their careers, their own pursuit of 'satisfaction and fulfillment' and the kid is rewarded with some money to go hang out at the mall, or whatever, they'll buy him anything if he'll just leave them alone to do their thing.

Anyone remember 'Values Free Education"? It was to make children 'feel good' about themselves, just for being alive and breathing. They were 'basically good' and deserved to be let alone to develop their own set of moral values, because they were so good, they would automatically develop these 'good moral values'. If parents would just keep their superstitions and twisted values to themselves and let their children develop their own. After all children become racists and bigots and 'intolerant' of others from listening to their parents.

Well, folks, what you're seeing is the result of these wonderful kids who were left to develop their own moral values....Those that do the picking on and those that are picked on. Just as we allowed the schools to dumb down our educational system, we allowed them to 'let our children develop their own moral values'. Now, granted no one deserves to be shot in school. Or die at school. And the innocent will die with the guilty, these kids don't care who they're shooting at, they're just expressing their feelings. Remember when FEELINGS were SO IMPORTANT to teachers? They still are.

What we're all seeing is the Great Socialist Experiment's results, and the results are, not only do they get to continue to teach kids whatever they choose is 'education' and 'tolerance' but we get to hand over our guns, our children and let them continue to blame US for the problems these kids are facing.

As a note, we SHOULD be blamed for letting this 'teacher knows best' crap flying in the first place. We SHOULD have kept control over our public school system and demanded that Reading, Writing, Math, English and History be taught, and NOTHING else. We SHOULD have kept control over handling our own kids, instead of just handing them over to a school system that does not have, or ever will have enough money to run or teach, and raised them on our own, and STOP depending on every dad-blamed crackpot 'child advocate-expert' that came down the road with a new revelation, idea on the 'right' way to raise children. Because this is what you get.

-- Louise Whitley (whitley@terraworld.net), March 24, 2001.

Yea Louise! You pretty much said it ALL! Ditto.

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), March 24, 2001.

Louise, you are so right! Why is it so hard for people to understand? We teach our children there are consequences to their actions. If only most adults knew this. If you don't want to make raising kids a priority, then don't have them.

-- Lena(NC) (breezex4@go.com), March 24, 2001.

I really do believe kids are much more violent today. There certainly was meaness and fights and yes even violence when I was in school but not on the scale there is today. Our children are angry and mean. Not all are thank God but there is something very wrong here and we need to get serious about it. Sorry to say I just don't have the answer but I wonder if smaller schools and classrooms wouldn't help along with people raising their children and raising them right. Seems to me like so many kids just raise themselves these days.

-- Eve Lyn (evelynv@ipa.net), March 24, 2001.

As much as I can despise politicians, one made a comment that stuck in my brain the other day.... Sen. Ashcroft was being interviewed about the Santee shooting. He responded with "Yes... this is a serious problem... But, how many of your viewers realize that this is just one case? What about the other 30,000 school shootings across the country each year? This one just happened to make the National news." ...)

Yes... that's right folks.... 30,000 per year.

There is definately something wrong if they all are using the excuse that they were being bullied and teased. And... for the most part... most of them do.

If this is the case, schools, parents and government are ALL to blame. I can understand the school's position.... After all... some of these kids get violent with the teachers. Do they restrain them and risk a law suit? Even the cops have been sued by parents for restraining their 'precious' babies. Those are the parents that should join their kids in juvie hall....

There are laws on the books for adults that do this stuff... but since when is the government supposed to rear our children for us? If we don't teach them right from wrong, then the government should? And that goes for the bullies as well as the ones that get picked on.

But.... then the parents' hands are tied (to prevent child abuse) by the government. You can't spank them, ground them, whatever, because then you have to face DCFS or some other organization... Neighbors with nothing better to do will turn you in even if you haven't even raised your voice - let alone your hand - to discipline a child. One of my best friends had this happen. So... no... I don't have an answer. The three are so interdependent and intertwined that the whole mess is likely to continue for a very very long time.

Parents should be allowed to (and responsible for) raise their children. Schools should be allowed (without fear of lawsuits from dollar happy attorneys and parents) to intervene in student activities on the school grounds. Kids should learn right from wrong.

It is no more right or wrong for somebody to go off the deep end and hurt or kill others because they were bullied than it is for the bullies to do their thing. And.... THERE IS NO EXCUSE.

-- Sue Diederich (willow666@rocketmail.com), March 26, 2001.

Some notes for Rheba,

1. most Canadians don't feel they need, or keep, guns for protection from people

That may be the general feeling amongst those living in the more populated areas in the east but most western Canadian do feel the need and many still carry.

2. I don't believe it's legal to own a handgun in Canada

Until quite recently handguns were treated like any other firearm. Then many Canadians started went along with the slippery slope of registration. Now those that are owned are to be turned in. Total confiscation legislation is pending in Canada as we speak.

3. with the exception of criminals and the police, guns in Canada consist of rifles or shotguns, for hunting and protecting livestock or family from wild animals

The whole of western Canada has and still carries handguns. Some are burying theirs for a rainy day when confiscation begins.

4. (don't quote me) I don't believe the rapid-fire style guns are legal here or as easily available

Canadians actually have access to models of weapons with functions and accessories that are not legal here since the bogus "assault weapon" ban went into effect.

5. rifles or shotguns are harder to hide and get into a school

Almost all of the shootings here have included long guns which are also the ones that have done the most damage in the highly publicized shootings we are discussing.

6. Canada's pop. is about 30 million, the US's about 265 mil.(?)

Your point?

7. in general, the police are still respected in Canada

Here even small police departments are often run by the criminals. Gang kids plan careers in the police department to more effectively shake down the victims and cover for their "homies". How many "homies" do you suppose are in the RCMP? Consider what the percentage is in a large American police department.

-- William in Wi (gnarledmaw@lycos.com), March 26, 2001.

It would be interesting to know how many of the past 15 or so shooters in the school incidents had both parents working OUTSIDE OF the home, vs. how many had a full time mom. I think Mom's are so critical to the equation. The mother is the 'hub of stabilization in the family', to our way of thinking. Call it old fashioned, I don't mind. It has worked better for us that way. My wife has a part time job, lately, but it's always apparent how the children need her input, and sometimes just her presence...

-- Action Dude (theactiondude@yahoo.com), March 27, 2001.

Sue, I don't care who made the quote, 30,000 school shootings per year is bullshit.It is right up there with 12 kids per minute die from firearms every day.Do a little math.The US would achieve zero population growth in a big hurry.(make that negative population growth)It's really pointless to even bother refuting this kind of blatent propaganda anymore.The whole "gun control" issue has reached the point of becoming religious dogma.(no I'm not refering to sue specificly)There is no reason or logic anymore.why bother?

-- greg (gsmith@tricountyi.net), March 30, 2001.

There is evidence to suggest that the smaller the school, the less likely it is that something like this will take place. If a student feels like he or she is part of a community, it's harder for him or her to show up with a gun and start blowing people away. Many people feel that schools of 1,000 students or more are simply too big and teenagers especially, already feeling lost and alienated, feel even more insignificant.

-- Betsy in NY (sassyweitzel@yahoo.com), March 30, 2001.

Betsy in NY, ....That makes good sense to me, as well. Also, in a smaller school setting, the teachers can have a more realistic role in solving problems with students, and may observe and catch others before they BECOME problems. Eventually, though, the parents have to tow the line. the children started, with THEM. My graduating class of 600 was just a bit too large in my estimation.

-- Action Dude (theactiondude@yahoo.com), March 30, 2001.

I think the whole issue of guns vs school shootings and the family comes down to this. As a Canadian who is just looking into getting a handgun for target shooting, I stumbled by this page by mistake, but read everything and believe that the school shootings are an indicator that kids are under tremendous pressure these days because the family support and guidance isn't there. Because the kids lack role models and proper ways of expressing hormone based frustration, agression and isolation, the only precedent they see via their TV- based education/culture is to take a gun into school and make a statement. It's horrifying to realize that the only way a child can properly express themselves is by pulling the trigger; not once, as many times as they can. It's not the gun itself that is causing this problem. Blaming a gun is irrelevant because even one life lost with a knife or other means is no different than multiple lives lost. The family unit and society's changed values over the last few decades are to blame for this senseless action. A strong hard look has to be taken on a solution and banning firearms is not one of them.

-Steve

-- Steve McKay (stevem2@hotmail.com), March 12, 2002.