Why is it that the love of the taste of meat justifies the torture of defenseless animals? Is a cow that different from a human? Do they not feel pain? Do they not feel love for their calves? Do they not think thoughts and have dreams? Do they not taste the flavor and texture of their food?

Anybody see the birds on TLC and Larry King that can solve problems, verbally identify objects, and respond to complex requests?

If your answer is, "But they do not have a soul, therefore we can do with them as we wish", I would suggest that you rethink your argument.

Also, note that the removal of all this meat from the market place is going to cause prices to skyrocket. This meat will need to be replaced, and this will pressure breeders to produce animals that are even more mistreated and diseased.

-- Where (is@the.outrage), March 17, 2001

Answers

OK, so we'll let the sheep survive and die slowly and horribly from a deadly disease. Would that make you happy?

You can talk about a few animals that can be trained to do pet and parlor tricks, but the animals that we commonly use for food and clothing -- sheep, cows and chickens, in particular -- are breathtakingly stupid.

Chickens, in particular, are such abject morons that they will sometimes drown in a downburst. They'll look up and a raindrop will lodge in their gullet, strangling them. Any farmer worth his overalls knows that you have to keep them under cover when the heavy rains come.

If you were to just "free" all of these animals tomorrow, most (if not virtually all) of them would die from their own inability to protect and feed themselves. They are uniquely suited to serve as meat, milk and clothing animals. They were raised by man for that purpose almost as soon as man appeared on the evolutionary scene. For any other use, they're worthless.

I'm not opposed to humane treatment of farm animals. I don't like the fact that they're often crammed into tiny stalls, never allowed to move more than a few feet. When they're slaughtered, it should be quick and relatively painless. OK, so let's enforce the laws that ALREADY require such humane treatment.

I realize that you probably just posted this to kick an anthill or two, but the folks at PETA (who really believe this crap) are a riot. Eventually, it will dawn on them that most people will NEVER agree with them, no matter what tack they try.

-- Stephen M. Poole (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), March 17, 2001.

If your answer is, "But they do not have a soul, therefore we can do with them as we wish", I would suggest that you rethink your argument.

But they don't have a soul. Neither do humans. A soul is just a figment that has been conjured by superstitious religious wackos.

Prove that we have a soul. Prove that any of your fuzzy friends have souls. Do rats have souls? Snakes? Worms? Amoebas?

-- ("logic"@humane.shelter), March 17, 2001.

I agree this is horrible and upsetting to me.

Humans are greedy selfish ....things. But don't forget about the justice of karma.

-- (cin@cin.cin), March 17, 2001.

Are we doing a Hannibal Lecter thread here?

Where does one's disgust of the food-chain end? Purple Martins eat mosquitos. Should I feel sorry for the mosquitos?

My oldest daughter is probably moving into a new place that doesn't allow pets. She has both a carnivorous snake AND a cat. I volunteered to take the snake. My second daughter asked me how I'd feel feeding mice to this snake. We had snakes when the kids were growing up and I fed them live crickets, live goldfish, and live worms. IMO, the snake is MUCH more honest than I am. *I* go the supermarket and purchase a steak wrapped in white paper that has been grown, butchered, and sliced up into little pieces. That certainly sounds gross to me, but I STILL eat the steak, and it provides nourishment.

Some species can survive as herbivores. Some can't. The human species consists of herbivores AND carnivores, as well as variations in between the two. I'm "pretty much" an herbivore, but I have my Hannibal Lecter moments.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), March 17, 2001.

I have always thought there is something very dark and sinister about people who choose to keep live snakes and enjoy feeding live creatures to them. In fact they give me the creeps and the willies. Not the snakes, mind you, but those that keep them.

-- (@ .), March 17, 2001.

@:

It's only those of us with a DARK side to our souls.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), March 17, 2001.

This foot in mouth disease is nothing more then a conspiracy by Bush and the repugs to shut down the European meat markets so the rich ranchers in Texas can raise their meat prices and get rich from the shortage.

-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), March 17, 2001.

Foot and Mouth disease is very real and it is not a conspiracy. Producers in this country are very aware of it and it's potential. As far as cruelty in regards to animal lockup living conditions, most if not all animals raised for food and other products are taken care of much better than if they were running wild. They have the best of nutrition and vet care for injuries and disease. Not so if they were not confined.

-- Boswell (cjseed@webtv.net), March 17, 2001.

boz excuse me but that is bullshit

-- (cin@cin.cin), March 17, 2001.

What's bullshit about it Cin. As far as foot and mouth, we know that is a very real threat and they are having big problems over there. Bacteria, symptoms, and microscopes don't lie. As far as animals being confined, compare domestic cattle to those that would be free if given the choice. For one, most calves in large portions of this country wouldn't live to be a year old because of white muscle which is a selenium deficiency which causes heart problems. Many regions of this nation do not have enough selenium for adequate nutrition, so we supplement it in feeds and at birth give them a booster shot called Bo-Se. Pneumonia is a common problem which would kill thousands of newborns if left untreated. And with all the bears, coyotes, and wolves that are being relocated in some areas, cattle would have quite a time of it. Also compare death by a slaughterhouse P-gun to a slow death on a canyon hillside at the mercy of 6 coyotes. I've seen that and it ain't pretty!

-- Boswell (cjseed@webtv.net), March 17, 2001.

Bos:

Your experience with farm critters led me to think about how we got our snakes when the kids were young. My uncle was about to mow them down and knew that my home was ALREADY a haven for just about every baby bird or other specie in the neighborhood abandoned for one reason or another by the parents. Domestication is a cruel process, but nature is even crueler.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), March 17, 2001.

They are uniquely suited to serve as meat... For any other use, they're worthless.

So why are cows and pigs (and monkeys and dogs) suitable but not humans? Why not raise cloned humans and sell their organs?

And just who says they are worthless? Why are you "worth" more? Because some book written before the Dark Ages tells you your "God" said so?

How much is "Stephen M. Poole" worth to other animals?

-- Reggie the veggie (eat@less.animals), March 17, 2001.

The only moral form of nutrition is to not kill and eat other living creatures. That eliminates all flesh and most vegetables.

The only moral nutrition is photosynthesis and the gathering of seeds that "want" to be eaten so that they can be sown by our scat. The world must embark immediately on a crash program to evolve humans into photosynthetic beings like trees.

Ommmmmmmmmm.

-- (Maharishi@levitation.lotus), March 17, 2001.

Hey cin, got milk?

-- (mooo@mooo.good), March 17, 2001.

Boswell: "...most if not all animals raised for food [...] are taken care of much better than if they were running wild. They have the best of nutrition and vet care for injuries and disease."

Boswell! You've joined the liberals! COngratulations!

Most if not all people living in democratic-socialist societies (such as they have in Germany, France and many other European countries) are taken care of much better than if they were living in an unregulated free market economy. They have the best of nutrition and socialized medical care for injuries and disease.

Wow! makes you think, doesn't it?

No?

Boswell, tsk-tsk!

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), March 17, 2001.

ever heard of A LAND flowing with milk & honey?? ever heard of NOAH'S ARK??

ever heard =BLESSED A-re you & your flock,s [if] YOU KEEP MY COMMANDMENT'S?? WHAT,S THE OPPOSITE OF BLESSED???? keep on making your wisecracks about GOD & HIS WORD

REAPING & SOWING FOLK,S IT'S=REAL.

-- al-d (dogs@zianet.com), March 17, 2001.

Yep little nipper, you caught me dead to rights. I guess I'm a liberal this week!

-- Boswell (cjseed@webtv.net), March 17, 2001.

Dear Al:

They have herd (pun intended) but simply do not care. A sign of the times as we know it.

-- reader (one@who.knows), March 18, 2001.

Reggie,

Why are you "worth" more?

If you really believe that a human isn't worth more than a cow or a chicken or a goat, then you're a moron.

Sorry, I don't even worry about being diplomatic with people who say things like that. Humans are ALONE of animal species in even CARING whether other species survive. Most animals don't even care if members of their OWN species survive, as long as THEY do.

In fact, many species -- including those just below us on the evolutionary ladder -- are capable of astonishing, almost gratuitous cruelty to their fellows. Ever watch a dog pack turn on an injured member? It's not pretty.

Chimpanzees are an even better example because they're fellow primates. People think that they're cute and cool little peeples who make funny faces at TV cameras, but in the wild, they will sometimes -- for no discernible reason -- suddenly turn on one of their fellows and begin ripping strips of skin off with their teeth. No reason. They obviously get a rush out of hearing him scream.

If you're still inclined to argue, don't waste your time. Until you can show me a CAT scanner or a prosthetic limb invented and patented by an animal, you have no argument.

How much is "Stephen M. Poole" worth to other animals?

My cats think I'm King. :)

Those animals at the local shelters that I've helped support probably didn't know that I helped pay for the food and medicine. Animals have a hard enough time grasping the concept of simple barter, much less monetary exhange.

I love this toggle-switch thinking: either I buy into the radical, PETA-type "all animals have equal rights" line, or I'm an animal hater. That's an argument that could only be sustained by morons, too, and sorry, but I'm not playing.

I love animals. But I'll kill an animal in an INSTANT if it would save your life. Without hesitation.

Even though you're a moron. :)

-- Stephen M. Poole (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), March 19, 2001.

“This foot in mouth disease is nothing more then a conspiracy by Bush and the repugs to shut down the European meat markets so the rich ranchers in Texas can raise their meat prices and get rich from the shortage.”

My dear Ms. Cherri, I can only hope that you were not responsible for this most ludicrous statement. Perhaps a weak attempt at some satire? If so, you/they have managed to put your/their ‘foot in mouth’.

-- So (cr@t.es), March 19, 2001.

Stephen, humans kill every other species on the planet. (And not only for survival, I might add) Including their own!

Yes there are people every day murdered at the hands of their "fellow" man. And sometimes for no apparent reason. Maybe they just like hearing them scream.

Yeah right Stephen, (complete sarcasm here) humans are so much more intelligent.

-- (cin@cin.cin), March 19, 2001.

-- (cute@in't.I?), March 19, 2001.

What is wrong with this world? We are all baaaaadddddd.

-- outrageous (outrage@is.here), March 19, 2001.

loop=1>

-- (b@aa.dddd), March 19, 2001.

Stephen, I think that the violent world of chimpanzees was first documented by the observations of chimps in the wild of Jane Goodall.

Goodall vividly describes her horror on finding that chimps were anything but noble vegans, but hunters of smaller monkeys. Worse, they indulged in cannibalism and brutal gang murders of relatives who strayed into their territory, the younger ones whooping in hysterical excitement as the terrified victim was torn to pieces. Here were the precursors of human group violence.

From a review of Reason for Hope, Jane Goodall

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), March 19, 2001.

And for the more squishy POV, we need look no further than the feel-good verbosity of the the thread "A message of love and compassion for Gaia"-----

Unbeknownst to orthodox biological scientists, and even theolo­gians and religious leaders, animals are also sentient and conscious beings that are endowed with a Sprit, Soul and Subtle Bodies as well, similar but, not the same substructures as human beings. Do animals have emotions and feelings? Absolutely! Do they think? Absolutely! Not like humans, and thank God for that! But think, emote and feel, they most certainly do. Do they feel emotional and physical pain? Absolutely, they do, which may horrify those scientists that perform cruel experim­ents on animals. And, finally, do animals reincarnate? Absolutely, they do, and they also carry with them Soul Memory, same as humans, and they remember how and why they died, in their souls. The materialists and religionists may deny this fact, but those wise entities and sages of all ages do know that all creatures created by the Creator are endowed with divinity and similar emotional & physical infrastructures, for they all, indeed, are sentient beings. We are not here to engage in academ­ic or polemic disputations, but to inform and appeal to the common sense, love and compassion of those that regard animals as creatures of God as well, to be loved and respected, and not to see or perceive animals only as a food source, a beefsteak, a pork chop or just simply dollar signs.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), March 19, 2001.

For shame, all those of you who would eat PLANTS. Think that carrot LIKES to be yanked out of its warm cozy bed?

Such closed minds... Just cause YOU can't hear their screams ....

Uh only half joking. When the cosmic contrition comes over me, it spares nothing. This world is a hell of a bad design ... creatures EATing other creatures to survive, and for sport? Grrrr. I'd like to KILL whoever... ooops.... If I could I'd send it back to R&D, today, and have them re-do the whole thing from scratch.

Acourse I tell myself that plants can't feel pain, else why would they have no ability to locomote away from it? (Isn't it convenient to think this though?)

I like that photosynthesis idea... Meanwhile, lunch is served.. turkey vegetable hot pot.

And (prolly not while you're eating) something for your amusement/fascination/horror:

Apparently pet-snake ownership is seriously on the rise: Mice on Ice http://www.miceonice.com

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), March 19, 2001.

Cin,

Stephen, humans kill every other species on the planet. (And not only for survival, I might add) Including their own!

Sure. But let's not get into absolute relativism (I love THAT oxymoron[g]), ex., I speed sometimes, so therefore, I am really no better than the person who speeds while drunk and running drugs for the Mob.

Sorry, I don't buy it. Never have, and I won't play that game.

The point here, of course, is that, while humans certainly ain't perfect, we ARE better than dumb animals. The very reason why we have laws to PUNISH those who murder (and even mistreat animals) is because we at least TRY to be better.

Ask a dog sometime if he feels any guilt whatsoever about killing the neighbor's cat. See the response that you get. :)

Yeah right Stephen, (complete sarcasm here) humans are so much more intelligent.

We *ARE* more intelligent. Cin, I understand what you're trying to say, and believe me, I do *NOT* lump you with the moron that posted the drivel above. But think about this for a moment: do you seriously propose that humans, as a group, are NOT more intelligent (or better, or capable of more good) than animals?

-- Stephen M. Poole (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), March 19, 2001.

Love to eat them mousies.......

mousies what I love to eat!

Bite they little heads off,

nibble on they tiny feet!

--B. Kliban

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), March 19, 2001.

Do you think that animals are capable of the atrocities of the Nazis?

Have you ever noticed how passive most "food" animals are? Sad

-- (cin@cin.cin), March 19, 2001.

Cin,

I said, "as a GROUP." That's an important distinction. AS A GROUP and in general, I'm proud to be a human who supports the local animal shelter and kindness to animals.

But to answer your question, sure, some animals are capable of worse atrocities than the Nazis ever imagined, because they ENJOY killing. Again, a dog pack makes a good example; they'll torture a cat for quite some time before finally killing it, then walking away.

Their lower intelligence and their inability to organize into anything larger than a pack is the ONLY thing that limits their cruelty.

Many animals kill solely for sport, never eating what they've killed.

I'm not disagreeing with you entirely. I'm disagreeing with the extent to which you want to press this. Are humans capable of Bad Things? Lord, yes! I'll never deny it. But we are STILL better than animals.

-- Stephen M. Poole (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), March 20, 2001.

Linda Faillace gives a kiss to a lamb at her farm in East Warren, Vt., Friday, March 23, 2001. Federal agents seized a second flock of Vermont sheep suspected of having been exposed to a form of mad cow disease. The owners had fought to keep the flock, urging officials to first complete tests on the other confiscated sheep, but their request was denied. (AP Photo/Toby Talbot)

By WILSON RING, Associated Press Writer

EAST WARREN, Vt. (AP) - Federal agents early Friday seized a second flock of Vermont sheep suspected of having been exposed to a form of mad cow disease.

The owners had fought to keep the flock, urging officials to first complete tests on the other confiscated sheep, but their request was denied.

At dawn Friday, police accompanied agents from the Department of Agriculture past about two dozen protesters. On their faces, some protesters wore red dye similar to that put on sheep being hauled away.

After the sheep were loaded onto a truck, about two dozen protesters briefly blocked the road, singing and waving banners that read, among other things, ``abuse of judicial process'' and ``unlawful restraint of trade, harassment.''

``This is a government agency completely out of control. We have no check on this agency,'' said protester John Barkhausen. ``It doesn't follow its own rules or regulations.''

The 126 East Friesian milking sheep will be taken to a USDA lab in Iowa, where they will be killed. Their brains will be tested for one of a family of diseases known as transmissible spongiform encephalopathies, or TSEs, a class of neurological diseases that includes both bovine spongiform encephalopathy, or mad cow disease, and scrapie, a sheep disease not harmful to humans.

The first flock, 234 sheep seized Wednesday from a farm in Greensboro, reached the federal lab on Thursday.

``We are very sympathetic to the owners. This is very difficult for them. This is very difficult for us as well. However, it is our duty, it is our mission to protect American agriculture,'' said USDA spokesman Ed Curlett.

Owner Larry Faillace said his family was cooperating with agents but not helping them haul away the sheep.

``We've never had a positive result on this farm,'' Faillace said as agents loaded sheep onto a truck. The government ``has never wanted to do anything except kill these animals.''

Three Faillace children - Jackie, Francis and Heather - each held young lambs marked with red dye.

``This is not justice,'' said Francis Faillace. ``Where are our rights?''

The government says some of the sheep may have been exposed to mad cow disease through contaminated feed before they were imported from Europe in 1996. They have been quarantined since 1998.

Nearly 100 people in Europe have died of the human form of BSE (news - web sites) since 1995, but no cases have been confirmed in the United States.

Although they aren't sure whether the Vermont sheep are infected, USDA officials have argued that even the remote chance that they could be carrying a mad cow variant poses too great a risk.

Thursday evening, friends and neighbors gathered to hold a candlelight vigil for the sheep.

The Faillaces have maintained throughout a two-year legal battle with the USDA that there is little solid scientific evidence that the sheep have TSE.

Separately, federal officials are monitoring about two dozen imported cows for signs of mad cow disease, although they have shown no symptoms, said Linda Detwiler, the Agriculture Department's chief expert on the illness.

Detwiler said that she believes 22 cows were imported to Texas, four to Vermont and two to Minnesota.

The cows are being monitored because the USDA doesn't know whether they were given contaminated feed before they were imported at least five years ago, apparently from the Netherlands.

The USDA had traced the cows years ago and quarantined them, Detwiler said.

-- (cin@cin.cin), March 23, 2001.

My heart aches =*(

-- (cin@cin.cin), March 23, 2001.

Mary Jo Cahilly-Bretzin, 8, carries out the last lamb to a waiting federal stock truck at the Faillace farm in East Warren, Vt., Friday, March 23, 2001. Federal agents seized a second flock of Vermont sheep suspected of having been exposed to a form of mad cow disease. The owners had fought to keep the flock, urging officials to first complete tests on the other confiscated sheep, but their request was denied.

-- (another he@rt.breaker), March 23, 2001.

Get a grip on yourself cin. There has always been pain and injustice in the world. Forget about what you can't do anything about and do what you can to help those you can. Why don't you do something constructive and learn html so you can volunteer a website for an animal foundation instead of wallowing in your pity?

-- (Just @ a. suggestion), March 23, 2001.

**Forget about what you can't do anything about**

Should we also forget about the holocaust, etc? Not thinking about things will not make them go away. Living in denial is not going to help. This is exactly how things get swept under the rug. This needs to be shouted aloud and put in everyone's face so you realize what is happening. I may not have the power to do anything other than what I am doing, but someone I am reaching may have.

I do what I can, but it's cold-hearted, soul-less people such as yourself who make it feel so futile.

You should work for the dept. of agriculture. Or do you?

-- (cin@cin.cin), March 23, 2001.

cin,

Have you caught a whiff of a gubmint conspiracy, or what?

-- flora (***@__._), March 23, 2001.

I know what that little gal is goin thru. I had 3 kids in 4-H and come sale time and knowing slaughter followed soon after was not a good experience for them. But they got used to it after several years.

-- Boswell (cjseed@webtv.net), March 23, 2001.

CHILD ABUSE

-- (SICK@AS.HECK), March 23, 2001.

“I had 3 kids in 4-H”

Any particular species?

-- So (cr@t.es), March 23, 2001.