Guns can do some good too....

Going ballistic

-- (Take_b@ck.the_night), March 17, 2001

Answers

kill or be killed. good ol u.s.a. and when the recession kicks in---buy x-tra ammo.

-- al-d (dogs@zianet.com), March 17, 2001.

Guns are for chickenshit morons.

-- (face your fears @ die. like a man), March 17, 2001.

Body bags are for people like you that think the police will protect them.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), March 17, 2001.

Who thinks the police will protect them? Did I say that??? Hmmm, coulda fooled me, that's a fuckin joke!

-- (face your fear @ die. like a man), March 17, 2001.

Guns are toys for little boys who are too scared to grow up and be a man.

-- (NRA @ National. Retards Association), March 17, 2001.

Interesting that no one will address the case histories mentioned by Walters, who has done a good deal of research on the legal use of handguns for protection. All we get is the usual knee-jerk reactions.

As usual, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I don't agree with the radical pro-gun nuts, but I also don't agree with those who think that guns are inherently evil and should be banned across the board.

Nor are guns a panacea that will cure any potentially bad situation. In some cases, they can make the situation worse. But the most striking story, to me, is that of the elderly lady who could have been raped. Had she not had that gun, is there any doubt?

I have my own story. Some of you may remember this one; it made the national news. Sargeant Victor French marched into Lindy's Restaurant in Fayetteville, NC right after Clinton took office (1993) and started blowing people away. (He was career Army, protesting Clinton's new "don't ask don't tell" policy toward gays.)

My cousin and his wife were in there. They survived -- thank God -- because they were near the back of the restaurant and crouched behind an overturned table.

French was alone. He turned first one way and the other, methodically killing people, execution-style. He only stopped when he ran out of ammo.

Had someone -- anyone -- in that restaurant had a gun, they possibly could have relieved Mr. French of his delusions before he killed over half a dozen people (including the restaurant owner) and maimed several others.

(And just for the record, the gun that French used was illegal. So much for gun laws preventing stuff like this.)

That's not just wishful thinking. A few days after the Lindy's incident, another maniac tried a similar restaurant shooting in Texas. This time, there were a couple of patrons who were armed. They blew the bad guy away before anyone was seriously hurt.

I just thank God that Joe and Marynell weren't killed. They very easily could have been.

-- Stephen M. Poole (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), March 17, 2001.

OK, another story. A acquaintance was working at a convenience store in Pinehurst, NC, when a kid came in and demanded the cash. The store had the usual "don't resist" policy, so he complied without hesitation. Handed him the cash, said, "have a nice day."

As the kid was leaving, he shot the guy just out of pure meanness. The bullet entered his jaw and he spent several painful months in surgery and rehab.

Could a gun behind the counter have helped this guy? I'm not so sure. Only in the movies can you grab yer gun before the bad guy can get a shot off. But perhaps you could ask a different question: what if the convenience store had a sign posted that said, "our employees are armed and are all expert marksmen."

Do you think the kid would have bothered THAT convenience store?

-- Stephen M. Poole (smpoole7@bellsouth.net), March 17, 2001.

Stephen--

Isn't there a town in GA that mandates that everyone carry? Is it Kennesaw? Do you know how this has worked? How does it apply to kids in school?

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), March 17, 2001.

It's too bad that all 50 states don't have the same Concealed Weapons Permit laws. Some states are very lenient while others it's almost impossible to get one. And going from one state to another and still stay armed and legal is impossible.

-- Boswell (cjseed@webtv.net), March 17, 2001.

Isn't there a town in GA that mandates that everyone carry?

How would this work, Lars? If I were to attend an event with SO in a slinky dress, where would I put a gun? This is real life, Lars. I'm NOT Scully, and I STILL don't understand how she can enter a crime scene in a sweater and slacks with NO bag, no bulges, and nothing hanging from her clothing and suddenly have a big gun, hand-cuffs, AND a cell-phone.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), March 17, 2001.

Everyone OVER the age of 21 is mandated to carry or at least own a gun, in Kenneshaw, GA., although they are not pushy if you refuse. That county has the lowest crime rate in the state of GA.

Go figure...

snoozin' on the porch...

The Dog

-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), March 17, 2001.

Dog--I have heard that too. But did the crime rate drop significantly after the mandatory carry law? Maybe crime was always low there.

Anita--Scully carries her piece strapped to the inside of her thigh. Haven't you noticed the odd way she walks? Why do you think Mulder never makes a pass?

-- (larsguy@yahoo.com), March 17, 2001.

I tried to find data on the crime rate in Kenneshaw GA. I found a few links in Google but they were broken. This is the best I could find. It was written in 1987 and had to do with a Constitution for an independent Scotland.(?) Here is a relevant paragraph-----

From Newsweek, October 4, 1982: In early 1982, Morton Grove, Illinois enacted legislation banning the sale and ownership of firearms by private citizens. By October 1982, there had not been much of an impact on crime, and in fact, there was an armed robbery the day the legislation went into effect. As a backlash to Morton Grove's legislation, Kenneshaw, Georgia enacted legislation requiring every head of household to own a gun and ammunition. A later alteration permitted exemptions on grounds of conscientious objection. In six months the previous year, Kenneshaw had five armed robberies. During the same period in 1982, there had been none. The number of residential burglaries dropped from 42 to two.

Here is the entire link.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), March 17, 2001.

That's Kennesaw, not Kenneshaw. They're right up the road from us. The law was written to require all home owners to own a gun, but was written in such a way as to pretty much exempt anyone who doesn't want to own a gun.

Cobb county, Kennesaw's home county, actually has a rather high crime rate. Kennesaw's crime rate is pretty much the same as the rest of the county.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingignthroughthejunglewithouta.net), March 17, 2001.

You know GA better than me but the Net shows two separate places, Kennesaw and Kenneshaw. The latter pased the optional gun law. I have no idea if it is still in effect.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), March 17, 2001.

Lars-

There is no Kenneshaw, Georgia. FWIW, I found that article quoted several times alway talking about Kennesaw not Kenneshaw. The law is still in effect, but is not enforced.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), March 17, 2001.

Lars-

I did some quick checking on crime stats for Georgia. Here's a link to an Acrobat document. 1998 Crime Rate for Georiga On page 15, you'll find stats for Kennesaw at line 179. As you can see, Kennesaw's crime rate was 35.8% for 1998, with 388 reported crimes, 1.6% of which were violent and 34.2% property. At that time, Kennesaw had a population of 10,849. On page 21, you'll see that crime in Kennesaw has increased by 39% between 1985 and 1995, and 20% between '95 and '96. That's the largest increase in Cobb county for the same period.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), March 17, 2001.

Correction! Line 15 refers to the RATE of crime per thouand, not the percentage. Sorry about that.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), March 17, 2001.

Hey apeman, you are always sorry.

-- (apesR@stupid.yep), March 18, 2001.

Hasn't Kennesaw by now effectively become just another name for an area within Greater Atlanta? It seems unlikely that this old gun policy has any real effect one way or another. It's not something with the power of law, at least in practice, it's simply a statement of philosophical preference.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), March 18, 2001.

Hasn't Kennesaw by now effectively become just another name for an area within Greater Atlanta?

Not really. Kennesaw, unlike other suburbs like Smyrna, Lawrenceville, Decatur, and to a lesser extent, Marietta, is far enough away and had enough of it's own character that it has so far avoided much of the urbanization that has been creeping beyond the perimeter (285) for years. That will change as Atlanta grows, of course.

Even if Kennesaw hadn't maintained a seperate identity, you would still have to explain why other Cobb county suburbs, like Smyrna, which are much closer to Atlanta have have seen very slow or negative growth in crime (such as Powder Springs). For instance, if it weren't for 285, you wouldn't be able to tell where Atlanta ends and Smyrna begins, plus Smyrna has an exploding population of illegal immigration, yet the crime rate has only grown by 3% in the same 10 year period that Kennesaw's crime rate has grown by almost 40%. Likewise, Marietta is ten times the size of Kennesaw in addition to being closer to Atlanta, yet their crime rate only grew by 10% for the same period.

It seems unlikely that this old gun policy has any real effect one way or another. It's not something with the power of law, at least in practice, it's simply a statement of philosophical preference.

Yes, that's true. The gun law hasn't made much of a difference in Kennesaw over the long-term.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), March 18, 2001.

Tarzan:

What seemed implicit in what you wrote is that Kennesaw's crime rate has been rapidly reaching equilibrium for Cobb county, and is now roughly the same as the crime rates throughout the county. This implies that the rate used to be unusually low for Cobb county, but this is no longer the case.

In this respect, at least, Kennesaw is losing its separate identity, and in crime-rate terms being subsumed into the SMSA totality. At least, that's what your description sounds like.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), March 18, 2001.

Flint-

What do you mean by SMSA totality?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), March 18, 2001.

Tarzan:

I mean all the territory the goverment considers part of the Atlanta Standard Metropolitan Statistical Area, which typically includes the central city and all of the suburbs and economically interwoven bedroom communities. I don't know how that's been drawn around Atlanta, but I would imagine it includes all of Cobb county. Do you have this information? I'm too lazy to look it up.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), March 18, 2001.

Nope, I don't have that handy. I'll try to look it up later today. In any event, why wouldn't we expect crime in Kennesaw to move at a rate more equal to the rest of the communities in Cobb? How can you determine a "crime equilibrium" for Cobb county based on this study?

I must say that I was extremely surprised that Kennesaw has had such an unusual growth in crime, especially compared to other Cobb county communities. I was frankly expecting to see this kind of growth in Smyrna, based on the idea that illegal immigration is accompanied by other crime. It will be interesting to see more recent stats.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), March 18, 2001.

Tarzan:

I thought you said that the current crime rate in Kennesaw was about the same as in other communities in Cobb county today. Kennesaw today is not a statistical anomaly in terms of actual crimes per thousand people, having about the same number as the surrounding communities. So they aren't an island of either high crime or low crime -- they're normal.

However, if they GOT normal by having a much higher *increase* in crime than the other communities, it follows that they *used* to have a lower crime rate. I speculated that this was probably due to their distance and isolation from Atlanta in the past, but that population density gradients in Cobb county have reached Kennesaw today, bringing with them the usual urban attributes. But this is only speculation.

In any case, I can't see how Kennesaw's gun philosophy has ever made any real difference. It has surely been insignificant compared to other forces.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), March 18, 2001.

Okay, that makes sense.

I did some research today on Kennesaw and guns. I found a lot of articles quoting the article Lars linked to above, but the strange thing is I can't find a source for the rapid decline in 1982. All these articles seem to reference each other rather than hard facts. None of them mention any stats more recent than 1985.

I'm beginning to understand why the NRA doesn't tout Kennesaw as a success.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), March 18, 2001.

Tar--

I couldn't find any recent data either. But, neither do gun control advocates cite Keneesaw as a failure, nor do they cite Morton Grove IL as a success.

All these places must be a wash or we'd hear about them from one side or t'uther (unless of course the monopolistic, biased, whoreish media is doing a cover-up).

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), March 18, 2001.

Actually, I found plenty of recent data. It just flies in the face of what mainstream gun supporters would presume about Kennesaw.

IMHO, the Kennesaw experiment is a wash. I will keep my eyes open for any explanations about why Kennesaw apparently has the fastest growth of crime in Cobb county, a faster growth rate than even Atlanta itself.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), March 19, 2001.

Well, I couldn't find any recent data, pro or con. Can you provide a link?

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), March 19, 2001.

Check further back in this thread. I've got official state of Georgia crime stats linked in from an Adobe document. I referenced the appropriate page and line numbers.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), March 19, 2001.