No longer a what if ? now what will you do? [H&MD} : LUSENET : Countryside : One Thread

Ok I am no longer looking at this as a what if happening but as a yes it will happen problem. What are the steps that will help insure stock health? The basic ones I can think of are 1. no one comes to this farm. 2. all trucks and such will not be allowed up the driveway 3. pets will be confined to the house at all times or leash walked,including cats.4. Begin storeing grain now and hay. 5. stock up on medial supplies,no vet. 6.Stock will be confined closer to the house,not to the endges of the fields.

Ok maybe I am off the deep end but what will help? or is there nothing to do any ways.

-- renee oneill{md.} (, March 15, 2001



Until something develops in the U.S., just monitor the situation. No really need to take unusual steps at this point.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (, March 15, 2001.

I have seen it alluded to, but (being animal illiterate) I have to ask - isn't hoof and mouth mainly an "ugly" disease? From what I've heard, all it does is cause some ugly symptoms and then the animals get over it. What's the big deal?

-- Soni (, March 15, 2001.

Yup. Go ahead and laugh at us Y2K doomsayers. Nothing will EVVVVVER happen! Meat.Economy(survey says:$104 a week to feed a family of 4 in NY).Bomb the Mid East.Bomb our own.Oil/Gas prices. Yup.

-- Kathy (, March 15, 2001.

Birds are also capable of spreading the F&MD virus as well as the wind.

-- Lynn Goltz (, March 15, 2001.

Me and the wife talked it over last week, decided not to go to any big efforts. With the wild deer as carriers and over a hundred of them roaming around our farm and all the neighbors farms we could not control it anyway. If it hits we will be vetetarians whether we want or not.

-- David (, March 15, 2001.

What about concentrating on building up the immune systems of your animals. Its like gardening - the pests and diseases attack the weak plants that can't get their nutritional needs met in the soil. You can spray for pests (and that can work) or you can work on building up the soil so that the plants that grow in it are strong and healthy and can resist the pests. Echinacea, garlic and other herbs have been used by humans to build up the immune system and resist sickness. Why wouldn't this help animals?

-- Amy (, March 15, 2001.

Exactly the same reasoning here David. And the problem comes from Bubba down the other end of the county. If he comes down with it, I will be quaranteened, vaccinated and then destroyed. So you submit, or will you see this maniac goat gal on the evening news, holding the law and her vet off with her dog and guns? Seriously it brings a tear to my eye just thinking about it...Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (, March 15, 2001.

Fortunately I don't have any animals that would be susceptible to this but I certainly feel for you that do. As far as trying to prevent it, well, other than keeping animals clean and healthy, I don't think there's much you can do. I worry about my animals picking up things from my closest neighbor (.2 miles aways but right at the end of our lane). His animals are always loose, his place is as filthy as it gets (as in dead animals in the yard, trash everywhere because he won't recycle and won't pay to have it picked up), and he is constantly bringing in new critters picked up at the auction. Of course he won't pay anything for them so he always brings the sick, scrawny ones home figuring a few will live and he'll be able to take them back to the auction a few weeks later and make a few bucks. My kids are under instructions to never set foot on his property (incidently, he's actually a nice guy) because I worry about diseases and our animals are kept healthy and well vaccinated. I don't know what else I can do. And yes, we have tons of deer, birds of course, plenty of stray dogs and cats, and various other wild critters wandering around so even if we became hermits, things would still find there way to our little patch of paradise.

-- Hoosiermom (, March 15, 2001.

Vicki, give me a day's notice, and I'll be down there to be on teevee with you!!!

-- sheepish (WA) (, March 16, 2001. l here is another ugly diease this one is related to citrus ,this is how it's being handle.

-- Steve (, March 16, 2001.

But, think about what Amy said. What if there are cattle with stronger immune systems, and don't catch it? They will shoot them anyway! That's the problem. They are shooting without even testing. They are killing them just because they are in the area. That is wrong. To kill animals that aren't even showing any signs of H&MD, aren't they wiping out the "strong" ones? I just can't see it, killing 500 because 1 has it. It's not right. One farmer lost 650 cattle and 5,000 sheep! No way did they test them all.

I heard on CNN it can travel 150 miles in the air, so if one cow got it, deal with that 1 cow. For pete's sake, don't kill them all. 4 years ago, my goats got pinkeye from a single cow at the neighbors. But only 4 goats out of 30 got it. None of the others ever got it. Just because it is highly contagious dosen't mean all with get it.

Both my brothers had German Measles and I didn't get it. I was little and in the house all the time with them. It is possble allot of cattle or sheep would not get it. I think someone has gone off the deep end over there. Killing healthy animals. Next comes world starvation if they keep it up. I do not believe people in the US would go along with mass slaughter of healthy animals.

-- Cindy in Ky (, March 16, 2001.

I'm not sure what the answer is .I think we {as a country} need to depend on ourself more and import less .This country has almost made farming a poor mans job and is looked down at .We have the resources to produce almost everything we need , lets do it .Let America take care of America first .

-- Patty {NY State} (, March 16, 2001.

Vicki,I see myself like you standing at the barn door gun in hand freaking out. I still cant figure out why it would not be my choice to keep the animal.I almost feel like it {the virus} needs to spread let animals get it then they will be imuned{sp} to it,like chicken pox.

Off subject alittle, the chicken pox shot is now required ok what happens when chicken pox mutates its self and we all get slammed w/ a new form? still a virus,but different. My kids have not had the shot for chicken pox but now w/ most kids haveing it there is no one to catch it from....scarey

-- renee oneill{md.} (, March 16, 2001.

just wondering what H&MD does i havent keep up with it as i dont have any critters. does it cause the meat to be enedible(SP?)? If other critters can carry it what critters can get it?

-- MikeinKS (, March 16, 2001.

Vicki, I'm not sure the powers that be can get away with that "kill it if it's anywhere near the infected" attitude in Texas. I know several that will go out with their cows if it comes down to it. Ditto for much of Oklahoma, where many live exclusively from the income produced by their stock. This may be the start of the next American Revolution---seriously. These good old boys here were prepared to go to war over black leg back in the fifties. They are much better armed now. I've got several cousins that ain't a gonna let'em do it.

-- Green (, March 16, 2001.

None of my reference books, going back to 1896, mention a natural immunity to F&MD. Yes, livestock will get over it, but unlike humans, they won't fully recover. Females won't gives as much milk, they can abort, it can kill young by their starving to death because eating will be painful and those who survive will be poor-doing animals the rest of their lives. As I have said before, it is more of an economic, than health, disease.

Killing an entire herd, and neighbors as well, because one has it? It is probably the most highly infectious livestock virus. Yes, some might not get it, much like some people can handle poison ivy with their bare hands and not get it, while someone else just needs to be near it. However, think of it much like a woman sacrificing a breast to keep cancer from the rest of her body. There can certainly be a 'rights of the individual' against 'the good of society' debate on this issue.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (, March 16, 2001.

I got out the Merck's manual and checked all through the section on foot and mouth. They say there are seven different strains which mutate rapidly and cause problems with vaccinations....I wonder about the chicken pox mutation as well. I think Cindy in KY has a great point. Aren't the officials just creating an animal holocaust without certainty of infection? Vicki, I'd be on the nightly news for certain. Just because it is out there (according to Merck's as well, it always has been) it doesn't mean everything close to it must die. Also according to Merck's: The virus is said to live 3 days on soil in the summer and 28 under 60 degrees and can "hibernate" six months. A cow may be a carrier for 2 1/ 2 years. Spreading of the virus is normally through the breathing. Goats and sheep tend to be much less affected than cattle by the virus.

Renee, I'm not going to do all the things you are, but I am not going to a friend's wedding because he is from Europe and has a ton of guests coming in from Europe. Through England and Germany. I just won't chance it, because they say that it can be carried in the lungs for 24 hours. Also, I'm afraid we aren't getting all the information, both positive and negative. God bless and protect everyone here and their herds.

-- Doreen (, March 16, 2001.

Ken,I am wondering if there is any proof that if an animal has got the virus once can it get it again? I know the 7 strain thing but since a strain is a mutation of the original virus does it protect them?

-- renee oneill{md.} (, March 16, 2001.

Well, on the UK site this morning, at least the farmers are starting to revolt! Here's something I copied and pasted:

"The ministry shot cows belonging to friends of ours while the animals were still in their stalls. The dead cattle have now swelled so much that they are stuck in the shed. The public have no idea of what is going on."

Doreen, from what you say it really makes no sense now. They deceided to slaughter all the pigs and sheep and leave the cows to be tested! Why slaughter all the sheep for 2 miles if they are less effected? And piles of dead and burning animals will spread much worse things in my opinion. Something just isn't right, it makes no sense.

-- Cindy in Ky (, March 16, 2001.

Here's another one I found, answers some of our questions:

"If all of Europe could be persuaded to use vaccination, Britain wouldn't have to worry so much about loss of trade. Farm animals would suffer from FMD in the same way that humans put up with the flu. They are supposedly less productive after the illness but that is not a great problem in an industry that massively over-produces. The symptoms are nasty: fever, mouth blisters and vesicles on the heels. Pregnant animals may abort but fewer than two per cent of all those affected die. Zimbabwe, South Africa and Argentina produce great steaks despite sometimes harbouring the disease."

Allot of countries are using the vaccine.

-- Cindy in Ky (, March 16, 2001.

I heard yesterday that a case has been confirmed in Argentina. It seems to be getting closer.

-- john (, March 16, 2001.

Renee: Don't know the answer to your question on various strains.


Eating pasture raised beef in Argentina is almost a national pasttime. Restaurants in the U.S. have opened specializing in it. I understand they voluntarily stopped exports of beef or milk-related products. F&LMD has never been whiped out in the in the world. It is edemic in some countries. Control of its spread has mostly been through import restrictions.

March 15, 2001

Argentina Suffers Foot - and - Mouth

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Filed at 3:34 p.m. ET

BUENOS AIRES, Argentina (AP) -- Less than a year ago, Argentine beef was sizzling. Posh New York restaurants highlighted the fork-tender meat on their menus. Praise poured in from London and Chicago. An ambitious campaign urged the world to ``eat Argentine beef.''

This week, countries around the world shut their doors to Argentine beef after officials confirmed an outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease among Argentine herds. Authorities have identified at least three infected sites, all on the famed Pampas.

Suddenly the proud cattle-ranching country finds itself struggling to prove what virtually all Argentines consider to be fact, that their country's meat is among the world's best.

``There's no other way to describe it -- this is a complete disaster,'' said Victor Tonelli, president of Carne Hereford, a leading beef exporter. ``I can't think of a worse time for this to happen.''

Argentine ranchers and meatpackers had hoped business was finally stabilizing after a foot-and-mouth scare last year, when a handful of cows in a remote northern province were identified as having the virus.

That prompted a ban on Argentine beef by the United States, one of the country's biggest export markets, along with the European Union. The ban was lifted in December, just as worries of mad cow disease swept Europe.

With the latest foot-and-mouth outbreak, only two countries are importing Argentine meat: Israel and Russia. Analysts say Argentina's cattle industry could lose as much as $500 million this year -- a devastating blow to one of the country's economic cornerstones, coming at a time when the economy is mired in a 32-month recession.

But the news of the outbreak strikes much deeper than the economy. For nearly 100 years, until 1970, Argentina's grass-fed, free-range cattle helped it dominate the world's beef market. During the 1930s and 1940s, beef sales helped catapult Argentina among the world's 10 wealthiest countries.

For Argentina, beef is a matter of national pride.

``It's one of three Argentine icons,'' said Tonelli. ``Wherever you go in the world, if you say Argentina, it invokes three things: Diego Maradona, tango, and beef. So we've got to do something about this -- and fast.''

Argentine officials say they do not intended to carry out a mass slaughter of infected animals, as in England and France, calling the step too costly and unnecessary.

However, Patricio Lamarca, an Argentine agricultural expert, said Argentina may have no choice. At some point ``they will have to take measures along the same lines,'' she said, calling the situation ``serious.''

``They will have to create some areas where they stop all transportation (of animals), just like in Europe.''

Some Argentine beef exporters have derided the European Union for its decision to ban imports of meat and livestock from Argentina, arguing that European countries have imported Argentine beef for years knowing the country was not free of foot-and-mouth.

``They've bought meat from Argentina for 40 years as a foot-and-mouth disease-infected country,'' said Miguel Schiaritti, the director of the Argentine Meat Industry Chamber.

Argentina was officially declared foot-and-mouth free for the first time last May. The outbreaks are the first reported since 1994.

But unlike worried consumers in Europe, many Argentines said they have no plans to relinquish their beef-eating habits, which make them among the world's top carnivores: they eat an average 120 pounds of meat each year.

``With or without foot-and-mouth, I've been eating beef for years,'' said Gustavo Sanguinetti, as he sat down to a dinner of rib eye steak, cooked intestines, and chorizo sausage at a local steakhouse. ``I'm certainly not going to stop now.''

Farmers and beef exporters said they hoped the latest outbreak will finally force the government to better regulate its meat products. Tonelli, the beef exporter, said Argentina had no choice when one of the country's cherished industries is at stake.

``Meat is what we do best,'' he said. ``What else are we going to do? Export computers? No way. This is Argentina.''

-- Ken S. in WC TN (, March 16, 2001.

Britain Starts Mass Slaughter of Animals Up to 1 Million Animals May Be Put To Death as Foot-and-Mouth Outbreak Spreads

By Brian Williams Reuters

LONDON (March 16) - Britain started killing tens of thousands of healthy sheep, goats and pigs on Friday in a macabre final effort to end a foot-and-mouth outbreak threatening livestock and farming around the world.

The head of Britain's farmers predicted the slaughter could lead to the death of one million animals in a mass cull expected to last several weeks.

The new measures in the fourth week of the outbreak set off the first signs of revolt by British farmers already at the end of their tether.

''There are a lot of farmers who will not tolerate anyone coming in and slaughtering animals that are not infected,'' Andrew Spence of a pressure group called Farmers for Action, told reporters.

He warned of a ''rural revolt.''

But Ben Gill, president of the National Farmers Union (NFU) which backs government plans, said any action that eradicted the disease from Britain's shores should be taken.

''I'm not happy having to slaughter any animals, I'm distressed at the state we're in. But I have to recognise that if it means we can stop the spread of this disease, then this is an action we have to implement,'' Gill told reporters.

Under UK government plans, all sheep, goats and pigs within two miles of highly infected areas will be killed.

The disease, which was first detected at an abattoir near London on February 21, has since spread to 256 locations the length and breadth of Britain. It has also been found in France and there are suspicions it may have spread to other countries.

Foot-and-mouth is not a threat to humans, but causes blisters in the mouth and on the hooves of cloven foot animals. The virus is easily transmitted from animal to animal and can also be carried on clothing and even on the wind.

Large areas of Britain's countryside have been declared ''no-go'' areas and nations around the world are enforcing bans on imports of British and other European nations food products.

Visitors from Britain are subjected to special inspections at airports and ports to ensure they are not carrying the disease on their shoes or in gifts of food.

World commodities markets were braced for volatile trading as government scrambled to contain the spread.

Traders expected bans on meat imports to increase demand for U.S. products, while prices of feed such as corn and soybean meal were poised to tumble because widespread slaughter will leave fewer animals to feed.

In Britain, the visible signs of the mass cull were grim.

Smoke rose from hillsides where destroyed animals were flung on funeral pyres while even near a main motorway workers laid a death bed of straw and coal for more carcases.

Neil Young, a Cumbrian farmer who rears cattle and sheep about 1.5 miles away from a confirmed site of foot-and-mouth, said the government's ''slaughter-on-suspicion policy was not the right approach when the incident was so isolated.

''We've just got one round here, I just don't see any need,'' the 20- year-old farmer told a Reuters correspondent from his farm about 250 miles north of London.

''If they come up to Cumbria and they're wanting to kill everyone's sheep, there's going to be a lot of aggro. They are not going to get them easy. They won't be getting on my land.''

Young had not slept for a week, worrying about his future in the industry, but farming duties must go on and it was now lambing season.

''You see the lambs take their first breath, you get them a drink, you look after them and you just turn round and say ''Why do we bother, they might be slaughtered tomorrow.''

REUTERS Reut07:58 03-16-01

-- Ken WC TN (, March 16, 2001.

I heard a lady from Wales being interviewed on NPR yesterday afternoon, they "had" 228 dairy cows. About a week ago they found one cow with the symptoms, some horrible thing like the skin inside it's mouth peeling off then the skin on her udder peeled off, within in six days half the herd was infected. The entire herd was shot and then burned. Their whole livelihood gone. They have always farmed and now have nothing. It's was really heatbreaking to listen to her.

This lady said she knew all the cows by name, that she could be blindfolded and tell which one was which buy it's udder.

If this disease makes it's way to the USA it's gonna be a bad scene.

Blessings, Judy

-- judymurray (, March 16, 2001.

Why can't the farmers in the U.S. vacinate their animals now even if they have to give them seven different vacinations, one for each strain? We have time on our side, seems like this would be a better move than sitting back with crossed fingers. Then if you have a certificate to show you have had all of your animals completely vacinated, then you wouldn't have to be in the group slaughters. Maybe I'm missing something here but it seems like this would work. If the cost of the vacines are prohibitive then we need to be getting the government involved to pay for them to save our livestock.

-- Colleen (, March 16, 2001.

Getting to be too many threads going on this subject.

Coleen: My understand is vaccines are short-lived, so they would have to be repeated on a regular basis. Even then, the vaccines may, by themselves, cause an outbreak.

For those who talk about armed resistence, remember the President can sign a National Emergency Order and likely seen in the Army. If you want to face down a M1A tank with your hunting rifle, go ahead.

F&MD is classified as something like a level five disease, so it can only be studied under extremely secure labatory conditions. People in self-contained suits, etc.

Who knows, maybe some terrorist group is sitting down chuckling at this moment.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (, March 16, 2001.

How did the U.S. handle the situation in the late 20s and what effect did it have then? Maybe history will hold some answers.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (, March 16, 2001.

Im not sure the USA would destroy all the animals in a particular area. For your info. this is not all that unusal for England, at least in away. When their is an animal found with rabies it is their standard response to destroy all animal that could carry this disease, whether they had it or not, in a several mile radius.

-- Wynema Passmore (, March 18, 2001.

the US has had outbreaks in the past and slaughter of all stock was the solution used ,in the west hunters were hired to kill every deer in the areas where it was confirmed .it took a major effort to get rid of brucelosis state by state and there are still some isolated pockets of it in the country .we will be seeing more otbreaks of livestock disease in the future due to the widespread tradeworld wideand air travel by tourist and hasent been to many years ago every swine in Hati was butchered due to an african swine disease there was a lot of worry that it would reach the US .hoof and mouth is an economic disease and the margine of profit is so low that it would put us farmers out of busness even more shurly than loss of a present herd

-- george darby (, March 18, 2001.

I'll be out with the guns and dogs if anyone comes to kill my animals due to Hoof and Mouth. It isn't normally fatal...only weakens the animals and changes the meat somehow. They are killing all the animals off because of economic reasons. NOT justifiable health reasons. It is insanity. Now, the "Mad Cow Disease" is a different story. How do we get feeds that don't have meat proteins in them? I am open to suggestions as to what kind of layer feed to give my geese and chickens.

-- Deborah Bauderer (, March 21, 2001.

Deborah, don't use anything with animal products in them on something you are going to eat. Instead, use lights, warm water and a radio to get them to lay more.

-- Cindy in Ky (, March 22, 2001.

One of the main problems we have here in England is that of manpower. There's not enough people to dispose of the carcasses, so they are rotting between slaughter and burning. It now appears that carion (crows, rooks and other flesh eating birds) are definitely spreading the virus by pecking at the dead carcasses, flying to other locations and deficating all over unaffected fields. Our sheep are lambing at the moment, we can't go to help them because of movement restrictions and the carrion birds are attracted by the ewe's placenta. It's like a big signal - "Come on over and infect all our stock". Catch 22, Rock and a hard place, call it what you will, but I tell you all, we're not even quarter way through this crisis.

I'm not really a gloom and doom merchant, but we're on the brink of total disaster on this tiny island of ours. We are going to end up with no meat animals at all in the country and depend on the rest of Europe for our meat imports. Once the local competition has been eradicated, the French (and others) can charge as much as they like and those with tight budgets will consider a joint of beef something to save up for at Christmas.

Our government is doing too little too late, and I wonder if they really want to solve the problem. They managed to get rid of the mining industry, the fishing industry, the shipbuilding industry and any other industry that required subsidising. Agriculture is the last industry that recieves subsidies.

It takes three pounds of soy protein to put on one pound of beef protien. The math doesn't add up and I'll bet there's a friggin' man in a grey suit somewhere with a calculator deciding this is a godsent opportunity to get rid of all the wasteful cows and feed the soy directly to the people. Makes economic sense on paper - sod the poor farmers.

Sorry to rant, just gets to me sometimes.

Eric - in Durham (North East England)

-- Eric J Methven (, March 22, 2001.

I am so sorry for all your troubles in England. It is a very unfortunate situation.

As someone trying to be more self-sufficient and living well on a below-poverty income, I will say that agricultural subsidies rankle me, as do other types of gov't welfare for corporations. It IS a constant struggle to be self-responsible, and I fail each time the trash man comes! I believe each of us should try do the same and be more thoughtful in our actions, and not be dependent on tax-payers at large to supplement our risks in business (agriculture).

-- Anne (, March 22, 2001.

Oh, Eric, please stay on here and talk to us. We are all so worried about you folks over there. Finially, someone who knows what is really going on! We all have cows, goats, sheep, and this action they are taking alarms us. I believe as you do, that the rotting animals pose more of a danger than live ones who show no sign of the illness. I really just don't get it. No matter how I look at it, it dosen't make any sense at all.

I will pray you can get to your sheep somehow and help them. The last I read, they were talking about letting up the restrictions of 10 days so folks like you can get their sheep back to the barns. Oh, I hope this is comming soon. Every one of our animals are important to us, and I just can't imagine not being able to help them lamb.

What I really don't understand is why importing uncooked meat from countries not "free" has been allowed for all these years, IF it is such a big deal when the animals get it. Again, this makes no sense. Please stay on our forum and let us know what's going on. My grandfather was from Scotland, and I am the last in my family who wants anything to do with farming. What you said about the Goverment money makes allot of sense.

-- Cindy in Ky (, March 23, 2001.

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