This can be a "Hot Topic" so everyone please respect everyone else's rights to voice their own opinions.

Let's pretend a little about the foot and mouth disease that is currently an issue. Let us pretend that all measures to stop the spread of the disease are failing and it is beginning to be considered nearly unstoppable. Let us pretend that destruction of some half a million head of pregnant ewes is planned in an effort to bring the spread under control. Let us pretend that farmers are so distraught over the loss of breeding stock and common livestock that police agencies are asking them to turn in their registered shotguns so that they can't use them for suicide. Let us pretend that government agencies are so frustrated with the spread that they no longer disinfect farm tractors in suspect areas, but are destroying them in making an all out effort to stop the disease.

It sounds mighty grim doesn't it?

Now then, I ask you for your opinions. I know that many of you have very strong feelings on genetics and genetic engineering. IF a US agency could step into the grim picture and bring a glimmer of hope with a genetically engineered vaccine that could not only stop the disease, but do it so quickly that further slaughter of animals would not need to be done, should it be allowed to be released and put into use? Remember, it is either a genetically engineered vaccine, or the world wide slaughter of perhaps half of all swine, sheep, and cattle.

This should bring some interesting responses for this is indeed a very serious topic. I think that it is only a matter of time before outbreaks in the US.

You should know that the first part down to "It sounds mighty grim doesn't it?" has already happened or been proposed. Shotguns have been requested to be turned in. An English friend tells that tractors HAVE BEEN destroyed. In the news is a proposal to kill a half million pregnant ewes.

There has been vaccine work going on for decades, and it is believed the greatest hope for success is for a genetically engineered vaccine that is being tested under the strictist conditions on a tiny island near the US. The vaccine is not anywhere near ready for release, so we will have to live in fear of the disease spread for a long time yet.

Here are two urls for stories of the above.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-98017,00.html Genetically engineered vaccine.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2-98226,00.html Shotgun turn in requests.

-- Notforprint (Not@thekeyboard.com), March 13, 2001

Answers

Wow. What a post. I want to read the articles you posted before commenting, but I am anxious to hear other's views.

Lots of issues brought into this-ought to be interesting reading over the next few days! :)

Sarah (i have a small flock of sheep and while this affects me less than many others, I sure am keeping (or trying to) up to date on this.)

-- Sarah (heartsongacres@juno.com), March 13, 2001.

I am not clear on a couple of things-maybe something someone could explain?

1. Just what does it mean to genetically engineer a virus-how is that different that using a virus(inactivated?) to aid a body from producing the antibodies against a disease? The pros would be, I assume, that without the entire virus being used, then it cannot spread/cause the disease? Has this been doen with anythign else before or is this a first?

2. Why is it not a risk to move carcasses of animals that have the disease, or that have been in contact with animals who do have the disease? Wouldn't the carcass still have the ability to spread the disease? If so, then what planet is Mr. Brown on??? Any government agency that says there is no risk of spread, guarantees it, but at the same time says if anyone sees a lorrie with carcasses hanging out (not a direct quote) or some other evidence of the lorrie not being completely sealed,that the person should call the agency...well sounds like there is no way to guarantee that moving the carcasses is safe. If I were a farmer there in the UK-I would be as concerned as they are. Ugh-I dislike politicians-they are so political!

Back to the question-is this virus still a threat if an animal is slaughtered-by how the carcass is handled, or does that reduce the threat (the death I mean)? So if someone is working amongst the slaughtered animals with the virus-the virsu becomes inactive and not transmittable? Does it live in the ground like other diseases do?

I guess what I don't understand is if this virus is so virulent that it can be carried by someone boots from one farm to the next (in the muck etc) or by the wind, then how do you best handle the animals bodies' that have it, or that have been exposed?

Sarah

-- Sarah (heartsongacres@juno.com), March 13, 2001.

It is my understanding that the animals are being murdered and burned on site. Many of the animals are being killed just becase they have antibodies in their blood meaning only that they have been exposed to the virus, not infected with it. THe virus is carried on the wind and clothes, so it is very easily spread. Since I do not eat animals, a 'genetically modified' vaccination is not an issue with me. If it protected my wool producing animals and milk producing animals (without contamination of milk if thats possible) I would whole heartedly support it. My political take on this is, hopefully this will change the overall shape of raising animals for consumtion. In a more localized, small farm and organic situation these problems are minimized. This is proven in countries like Denmark. Large scale farms, trucking large numbers of animals all over the country, large feedlots and slaughter plants will only continue to spread disease. I am not trying to convert everyone to vegetarianism, if an animal is raised locally, shipped a short distance to a local butcher shop that processes only a few animals a day in as humane a fashion as possible, that is morally acceptable to me. It also reduces the risk of diseases like e-coli. And disease problems can be traced to individual animals. Did you know that a singe fast food hamburger can contain flesh from DOZENS of cows. Its all processed in 2 large US plants. Folks who raise their own meat and butcher themselves or locally should remain safe from these problems. IO am sorry for the farmers that are affected by this tragedy, but I hope it will change the face of farming, and make life better for the animals involved. Dianne

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), March 13, 2001.

I need to go and read the articles yet, but I have been suppressing a thought that keeps running through my mind for quite awhile now. Please don't be all offended that it involves the bible. In scripture, it is said the last days will be as in the days of Noe (Noah), eat, drink, and marry, et....but in the days of Noah everyone was also a vegetarian....food for thought.

I am generally disinclined to give my approval to any manmade or man altered life form for any reason as it seems to come back to haunt us making the cure worse than the sickness, but I would need to know more before I could say that without any reservation.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), March 13, 2001.

I have been trying to follow this story since if first began to appear online. Most of the animals are being destroyed simply because they think they might have been exposed, even though they show no signs of the disease. The disease is highly contagious and remains in the soil for years, as well as being transmitted from and carried in clothing, on vehicle tires, and just the wind, never mind birds that visit the areas where diseased animals have been. The carcasses must be burned in order to destroy the virus, if indeed viruses can be destroyed. The disease does not pose any threat to humans, even if they eat meat from a diseased animal. It is just that no one wants too. I understand that sentiment. And from what I read today, the farmer's don't want to use the shotguns on themselves. It is the government inspectors/slaughters that are in danger.

Now, to answer the question--NO. The genetically engineered things always seem to open another Pandora's box full of things that were never anticipated. The devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), March 13, 2001.

Is it possible genetic engineering could be another gift from God as the tree in the Garden of Eden was that gave knowledge in exchange for innocence? True, the serpent was an advocate, however, the gift came from His creation. Seems Man has done pretty well since, maybe this new gift of knowledge will benifit mankind as the first one did. Breaking the genome was a talent given to man by The Creator as defined in the belief of your choosing. I used the Garden of Eden as an interpretation most are familiar with.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), March 13, 2001.

I just read that the disease was found in a herd in France today. I think if we can stop it we had better do it with what ever is available, unless of course we all would like to give up meat and dairy products. Having spent years developing my bloodlines, my heart really cries for these poor farmers who have their whole herds distroyed.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), March 13, 2001.

So we "genetically engineer" a vaccine that's effective against 99+% of the viruses responsible for this disease. Problem solved, short term, until new vaccine resistant virus rears it's ugly head. Then what? What is involved in genetically engineering a vaccine? Cross species transfer of genetic material? Probably not the best solution, but I'd guess it would be hard to convince those affected it's not.

-- ray s (mmoetc@yahoo.com), March 13, 2001.

One of the responsee said that they were understanding that the animals were being slaughtered and burned on site-that is NOT what is happening.

They are using 'sealed' lorries to transport the animals to some other place to burn them-all animals that are being condemned because of exposure or suspected exposure-except for the few farms that are not accessible by lorrie-that is the only place they are killing and then burnign the carcasses.

There are a whole lot of farmers who are questioning if this is safe, not to mention worried they are getting a bunch of beauraucratic placating instead of truth. A man named Mr. Brown (minister of something) is trying to tell the people that trucking the diseased or possibly diseased carcasses to distant parts for insineration is safe!

my foot.

also France is now involved-and what they are doing is quarantining the farm involved-a mile perimeter is closed down essentially and for a six mile beyoind that perimeter everything is being checked. I assume they will also slaughter the animals-but sounds like they will burn them on site, instead of transporting them-though theyare talking about a much smaller number of animals, than the UK. They just found this disease is there-and haven't said for certain what they are doing-but I would expect that they will act fast and hard.

Sarah

-- Sarah (heartsongacres@juno.com), March 13, 2001.

I just want to say watch out when it comes down to Germany finally deciding to step in and handle the situation. That will give them just that more power in the EU.and England.

Tom

-- Tom (tjk@cac.net), March 13, 2001.

First of all, your pretending is not so far from the truth.

Second of all, foot and mouth disease is very common, always has been, always will be. It is not contagious to humans, the meat is still fit to eat - and has been eaten forever. The whole whoop and holler about f and m is because of the so-called disease free status. Prior to the illustrious EU, it wasn't even a matter for a vet. It was treated at home, and within a couple weeks, went away. There are articles all over the web on this. Check out AP, CNN, etc.

Now... as for the genetic thing... even a genetically engineered vaccine will leave its 'print' in the sand, so to speak. The meat, while it MIGHT NOT be affected directly, it still might. I wouldn't eat it. I don't buy anything related to Kelloggs because of the Starlink positive tests, and I won't knowingly eat anything that man thinks he can make better than God. Just won't. Its a really scarey thing to me - and I am not even talking about ethics... Just the very idea is frightening to me!

Even if they can do this.... Do they know the ramifications of this type of technology???? They once thought that DDT and Agent Orange were relatively safe!!! And those weren't used on FOOD........

-- Sue Diederich (willow666@rocketmail.com), March 13, 2001.

is the whoop and holler (love how that sounds!) in part because of the Mad Cow disease and Scrapie that have been in the news recently? Problems with the beef supply over in Europe for a while, compounded by the Scrapie problems with sheep-that hit here (well it had some fallout anyway-in Vermont two flocks were destoyed because of one or two sheep under quarantiine who that came from Europe had it. Big bruhaha on SHEEP-L

And here the Starlink thing too as well as the irradiated food etc. People are nervous like all get out now!

Maybe that has something to do with it.

Sarah

-- Sarah (heartsongacres@juno.com), March 13, 2001.

Doreen, I'd be interested in knowing where it says people of Noah's time were vegetarian. Why were there unclean animals at that time if the animals weren't bring eaten? More clean animals were brought onto the ark than unclean, this leads me to believe that animals were being eaten, that seven of the clean animals were taken in order to insure a greater number of those species.

I wouldn't be in favor of the genetically engineered vaccine. It could very easily cause much graver problems than it would solve.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), March 13, 2001.

To Mr Jay Blair, With all due respect, I cannot believe that all the energy (time and money) spent on 'breaking the genome" has one whit to do with a gift from God. Despite brainwashing occurring as we speak on the American public, via beautiful television and print commercials replete with emotion-inducing images of nature and warm fuzzies, the fact remains that the absolute only reason genetic manipulation exists at all is for the purpose of PROFIT!!

WE DON'T NEED IT to feed the world..........theres food aplenty already....

We DON'T NEED IT to fight disease..........there's a prevention/cure for everything within nature....

We DON'T NEED IT to increase crop yield...fight pests....increase plant nutrients.......sustainable organic agriculture takes care of all those concerns,

WE DONT NEED IT AT ALL!!!!

If you really think that 'man has done pretty well since', perhaps you should look around at our disease rate in the "advanced' western culture; at our percentage of citizens who suffer from depression; at the appalling rate we continue to foul our own nest; at the increasingly alarming gap between the rich and poor; at our ever increasing number of auto-immune disorders and allergies and life- altering food sensitivities....

No, I for one do NOT believe we are doing pretty well at all; I think we have screwed up big time in most arenas, and actually believe we probably will destroy ourselves as a species, unless the general clueless public suddenly gets a clue and puts a stop to the corporate control of the limited information that most people are exposed to.

Thank you Sue, for letting people know about the hype surrounding foot and mouth........its always been around, like you said, and is in many ways discouraged with good husbandry practices and herbs. In any case, it has a short life, the animals generally recover naturally in about a fortnight; has never been proven to harm people at all, even when they eat the meat. When it visits your animals, it is ugly, gross and disgusting, but so is chickenpox.

Dont mess with Mother Nature; she is perfect and needs no improvements; she needs no controlling or antagonistic actions.

We, on the other hand, need to learn that Nature is our greatest teacher, and we ignore this basic tenet at our own unnecessary species' peril.

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), March 13, 2001.

Ah, this is what I wanted to see. A lot of really well thought out responses to what I consider a grave situation. Some families have worked decades to better their breeding stock, only to face losing them to slaughter. That would surely be hard to face.

Just what the answer is I don't know. As you probably read the vaccine in not a reality, and it seems that those most knowledgable about livestock such as you here are not in favor of it anyway.

Do I think that the disease will hit the US? You bet I do. I think that it is just a matter of time. How will the government agencies respond? I don't know, and don't have an opinion as to how they should. It is easier for me to say that since I don't currently have livestock that would be effected.

My thoughts are with those everywhere that have livestock.

Will check back for more opinions as time passes.

-- Notforprint (Not@thekeyboard.com), March 13, 2001.

Yeah, Earthmamma!

Rebekah, in Genesis, God gave every herb and fruit to man for his meat. Prior to the flood that was all man was to eat. After the flood He gave man animals to eat as well and also instilled a fear of man into the animals. That is delineated in Genesis 8 and 9. The clean and the unclean animals were for sacrificial purposes. They carried over into Levitical law after the flood.

I read the articles now, and I have to say that NO I don't think genetically engineered vaccines are going to be helpful. Thanks to Sue as well, from me. Also, I truly believe all of this stuff just adds up to the fact that we have decided to treat God's creation like it was a factory applying man made production schedules to living beings, and although they are animals....it is still a life and needs respect and rest and care, not forced growth, antibiotics, cramped quarters with dollar signs as it's only value. I think agribusiness is biting itself in the butt. I am not saying that everyone has to be a vegetarian, I don't mind people eating meat, but yet again, we have removed ourselves so far from the source of our sustenance that these kinds of things are only going to escalate, imo.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), March 13, 2001.

Somewhere today I read there is already a vaccine for this disease but after an outbreak, it actually makes the problem worse. So, (and this may be a naive question), why don't ranchers routinely use this vaccine? I also read there were something like 2 million doses readily available....Are US livestock being vaccinated now in anticipation of this spreading to our shores? Anyone know the cost of the vaccine per animal or the head start necessary for it to be effective?

Seems after the double whammy in Europe (hoof and mouth and Mad Cow), our ranchers would be scrambling to protect their herds.

-- Elizabeth (elizabethmorgan@usa.net), March 14, 2001.

Can someone tell me the process involved in "genetic engineering"?? I really know nothing about it. Are we not "genetic engineering" when we cross-bred or breed to breed out certain undesirable characteristics from our herds? How about when we cross-breed daylillies to create new colors etc.?? Is that playing God? I really don't feel like I can have an educated opinion on the whole thing until I understand the process.

-- diane (gardiacaprine@yahoo.com), March 14, 2001.

Earthmama, Thanks for the input. It will be very interesting to see how the future progresses and how the knowledge is utilized.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), March 14, 2001.

Elizabeth, I was under the impression that the vaccine would only be used to control the outbreak. Say Bubba got it diagnosed in the cattle herd down the road, all animals in a so many mile radius around the farm, including your goats would then be vaccinated. When no other diagnoses were made in that immediate county after quarnateen the initial animals that tests positive would be destroyed, and the kicker is that since your does were also vaccinated and would now test positive they also would be slaughtered!

Haven't confirmed this with actually reading it on CNBC, but their is supposed to be an article in their that a tractor trailer load of tractors is quaranteened and not being unloaded here in the states, because they came from England.

We are expecting this weekend to have information from the Texas Animal Health Commission on this, goat meeting on Saturday, will get back with you if we hear anything new. I do know that at the show last Saturday, folks were talking about this, and some folks were limiting lookyloo buyers from their place, alot like we were doing during the start of the Boers. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), March 14, 2001.

Common sense is mentioned a lot in this forum and Earthmamma's post above contains much. Well said.

-- jz (oz49us@yahoo.com), March 14, 2001.

Diane, virtually all our food products have been tampered with by man. Mostly through breeding for specific characteristics, viewed as improvements (whether or not they really are, such as tomatoes that ship well but taste crappy). Even though none of our foodstuffs are as "God gave them to us", this isn't the same as genetic engineering or genetic modification (interchangeable terms as far as I can tell).

In those, genetic material is either (1) manipulated at a genetic level, or (2) different genetic material is inserted into the genes of the foodstuff. I'm not sure #1 is a great idea, but I also don't think much is being done in that arena. #2 is what most are talking about for genetic engineering or GMO's (genetically modified organism). Such as the corn that had bT inserted into it.

Given human propensity to screw up, I think GMO's are just timebombs waiting to go off. Some may be perfectly harmless. But there will be some that are not. >:-(

-- Joy F (So.Central Wisconsin) (CatFlunky@excite.com), March 14, 2001.

Elizabeth the current vaccines available are not a good solution at all. As I understand it, once animals are vaccinated some may actually become carriers of the disease thus allowing the spread of the disease where there is currently none. Also vaccinated cattle cannot be shipped for obvious reasons.

-- Notforprint (Not@thekeyboard.com), March 14, 2001.

I talk w/ my vet alot{we are friends} and she has said that if we get slammed like Europe we should assume 90% of all live stock will be killed. My question is where will new stock come from?

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), March 14, 2001.

Viruses are natures way of weeding out the weak and leaving resistent animals to reproduce resistent offspring.Viruses are part of life and will not disapear.Having a quick reproduction cycle and the ability to mutate insures the viruses survival.Experimenting with genetically egineered vaccines could force the virus to mutant into something much worse then the original virus.Although instant results of using a vacine might bring satisfactory results at first.We don't know what chain reaction might accur down the road.Hasty solutions do not always bring the best long term results.When economics and profit are the motivation for instant cures ,solutions to future problems which may result from genetically altered seeds,insect cotrol and vaccines may get much more complicated then we're able to handle.It has seemed the more humans try to fix nature ,the more broken it gets

-- Steve (a12goat@cs.com), March 14, 2001.

Everyone's comments on this issue are interesting. It is obviously a hot topic and of great concern.

I think one thing that the original poster alluded to but that everyone has overlooked is the possibility that this virus may been reintroduced intentionally. Certainly, all the hysteria regarding Mad Cow disease could have planted the seeds in someone's head for this to occur. I can easily see one of two groups doing it: 1) Agribusiness, in an effort to destroy small farms, support genetic engineering and further their profit (Gee! A miracle cure suddenly appears and is rushed through without adequate FDA, etc., testing and government review) OR 2) Radical environmentalists who oppose the use of animals for meat, etc, and want to scare people away from the consumption of red meat (sort of like pro-life supporters killing abortion doctors -- you do something immoral in support of a larger cause). These are obviously conspiracy theories of the worst kind, but not out of the realm of possibility.

Regardless of the cause, this doesn't bode well for small farms as many will go out of business. Hobbyists and homesteaders probably won't loose everything but will undoubtedly pay a terrible price. I pray that this doesn't cross the Atlantic...

-- Michael Nuckols (nuckolsm@wildak.net), March 14, 2001.

Ran across this article on CNN. I, for one, didn't realize that the virus is NON-FATAL and animals generally recover from it. The article also discusses existing vaccines and notes that they aren't very effective.

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/03/14/us.foot.mouth/

As I understand it, infected meat is still safe for consumption. The disease only results in lower weight gain and milk production. Seems to me that letting the disease follow its course and allowing animals to build an immunity (weed out the weak) would be the best course in the long run. Farmers wouldn't lose their entire investment (as occurs in culling), but only a few animals. This approach, however, would not benefit big business's interests... Sorry to be so cynical, but the more I read the more I feel as if this crisis is being manipulated.

-- Michael Nuckols (nuckolsm@wildak.net), March 14, 2001.

I just wrote a long, very insightful post, but it was not accepted by the forum computer, I guess. So I'll write a short, poorly thought out one, instead.

I am happy that I don't have to make this decision, as I'm a veggie, but if I weren't , I'd be inclined to eat the infected animals, rather than destroying them. Seems wasteful.

earthmama says:

WE DON'T NEED IT to feed the world..........theres food aplenty already....

We DON'T NEED IT to fight disease..........there's a prevention/cure for everything within nature....

We DON'T NEED IT to increase crop yield...fight pests....increase plant nutrients.......sustainable organic agriculture takes care of all those concerns,

WE DONT NEED IT AT ALL!!!!

Right on, earthmama; let's don't forget, though, that we wouldn't even be having this discussion about food shortages, if we weren't overpopulating our home planet. Without the overpopulation, we wouldn't be needing any genetically altered veterinary medicine or genetically altered food crops.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), March 14, 2001.

Hola, JOJ. Re your last paragraph: ditto. dh in nm

-- debra in nm (dhaden@nmtr.unm.edu), March 14, 2001.

Thanks Joe,

I do feel compelled to jump in once more tho on one point you made:

Without the overpopulation, we wouldn't be needing any genetically altered veterinary medicine or genetically altered food crops.

You missed my point methinks.....Even WITH overpopulation, we dont need genetically altered anything! The agri powers want us to believe that their unnatural "food" is superior; that it will feed starving babies in Bangladesh, that it will cure blindness in India; that more food can be grown on less land, or with less water, or with less (this is my favorite) chemicals! But it doesnt take but a few hours research to discover that these are all lies!! None of it is true......there sole impetus for research on ANYTHING is to continue to fill their already filthy rich pockets. They couldnt care less about starving people, and they sure as hell arent going to create crops that require LESS usage of the chemicals they so successfully market.

I repeat........WE DON'T NEED ANY OF IT......

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), March 14, 2001.

I've read some post stateing possible conspiracys ,and I could't resist adding something.I've heard at a county extension office in a master gardening course that it takes 16 pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef.And because of over developement of once farm land & rapid population growth, people would be forced by circumstances to become vegetarians by the year 2016.I was told this was USDA figures.I've always wondered how the USDA would go about telling people they couldn't buy or raise meat . I could handle being vegetarian .But I'd need a glass of milk to wash down my peanut butter sandwhich. ,this type of slaughter is not isolated to milk and meat products . Citrus trees in south Florida are being destroyed because of canker.Even un infected trees are being cut down and burned.Fear of infection seems to be the reasoning behind killing the trees.I think the ones who decide that killing everything that may have a disease,or get one, have been brainwashed by anti bacterial soap commercials.

-- Steve (a12goat@cs.com), March 14, 2001.

While your wondering about your red meat supply, the fear of mad cow, and foot and mouth disease. Here is one more worry for you the USDA has decided that poultry does not need to be inspected by gov. employs but by the plant processing the poultry. They have managed to get around the court by placing an inspector at the end of a line of poultry running at 70 to 140 birds a minute. All the inspector has to do is look at outside of bird thats it. It might be an idea if you don't have your own poultry to think seriously of getting some.

-- Wynema Passmore (nemad_72039@yahoo.com), March 16, 2001.

I have read a lot of good postings here. One thing I wanted to bring up is that killing all of the animals will not only effect the "meat eaters". Cost's to reimburse will eventually be paid or partially paid by the government, funded by "all" eaters and taxpayers. Then, there is the cost of meat for those of us that do eat meat. It will skyrocket. Your flocks for purpose other than consumption would be just as at risk as those that ARE eaten. Wool cannot be used if someone takes the flock. Prices at the stores reflect in peoples spending. There will be fewer purchases of nick-nacks if they spend it all on meat... etc. Any farm problem will affect us all. It is scary to think what could happen next, then again, maybe we can learn from other countries experiences.

-- Brenda (brenclark@alltel.net), March 18, 2001.

Hey, we could probably spread the vaccine through CHEMTRAILS! Good thing they got all that spraying-practice recently.

-- Action Dude (theactiondude@yahoo.com), March 19, 2001.