Am I a Bad American?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Unk's Wild Wild West : One Thread

I like big cars, big houses and naturally big teats. I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some mid-level government goof with a bad comb-over who wants to give it away to crack addicts squirting out babies. I don't care about appearin compassionate, but I will help those willin to help themselves. A group of young boys playin with toy guns doesn't make them killers. That's why they call them the boy scouts. I know bein a minority doesn't automatically make you noble or victimized. I have the right to not be tolerant of others because they are different, weird or piss me off.

I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, you do it in English. I don't use the excuse "it's for the kids" as a shield for unpopular opinions or actions. I know what the definition of lying is. I think I know what "is" is. I thought the Taco Bell dog was funny, and so was Jose Jimenez. I believe no one ever died because of something Ozzy Osborne, Ice-T or Marilyn Manson sang, but that doesn't mean I have to listen to that crap from someone else's car when I'm stopped at a red light. I think that being a student doesn't give you any more enlightenment than working at Blockbuster or a fast food restaurant.

I believe everyone has a right to pray to his or her God and they can do it in their schools. My heroes are John Wayne, Ronald Reagan, Alan Keyes, Bill Gates and whoever canceled Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman. I don't hate the rich, else why would I want to be one. I think global warming is typical liberal scare tactics and junk science. I've never owned or was a slave and I didn't wander forty years in the desert after gettin chased out of Eqypt. I think you can respect and admire women while mentally imagining them naked and not committ a moral felony. I believe a self-righteous liberal with a cause is more dangerous than a Hell's Angel with an attitude. I want to know which church is it exactly where the Rev. Jessie preaches. And I think the cops have every right to shoot your sorry ass if you're running from them. Saw this the other day so I'm just passin it along.

-- Boswell (cjseed@webtv.net), March 11, 2001

Answers

You're not a bad American, you're just a freakin freak!

You're lonely too, aren't you ahole?

-- (You@know.who), March 11, 2001.


Thank you Mr. Boswell for posting this interesting ‘position statement’ from author unknown. His writing style, while adventuresome, should not get in the way of the message. He has touched on an attitude that is shared by many Americans but seems too difficult to put in words without offending this group or that. Historians will look back at our time and wonder in amazement over our inability to reverse our current direction.

-- So (cr@t.es), March 11, 2001.

You're a sick person. Luckily, we are making good progress weeding out misfits such as yourself.

-- You (are@a.wacko), March 11, 2001.

Hey there anonymous, how ya doin? I sure never have tried to win one of them there popularity contest, but I've always had good luck flushin out the cowards and the smelly ones. The e-mail below gets back to me and I'll give you my phone number if you would like to get up and personal cause that's the way I prefer it. And as far as weedin me out, that don't make much sense, cause as long as Uncle will allow it, I plan on stickin around for a spell. It's kind of enjoyable gettin under your skin. Abby and I have been happily married since 69 and have raised 3 wonderful kids so I certainly wouldn't consider myself lonely. Been around long enough that I believe only those that are lonely themselves would accuse somebody else of bein the same way.

-- Boswell (cjseed@webtv.net), March 11, 2001.

"I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, you do it in English."

Don't bother trying to buy one in Kalifornia, then. You'll be hard pressed to find any fast food place that employs English speakers.

-- Expatriate (heading@out.soon), March 11, 2001.



I think you've proven a point Expatriate, any legal citizen should learn English. That should include those that serve and those who are customers. Lessens the confusion!

-- Boswell (cjseed@webtv.net), March 11, 2001.

Hey Cockhead:

You sound like the typical greedy, racist, homophobic, ignoramous that has been brainwashed by the money loving right wing conservatives of this great country. Try pointing a loaded gun a your head and pulling the trigger.

Dipshit.

-- Rob (rob431@hotmail.com), March 11, 2001.


Oh look Mr. Boswell, I believe you have a new friend! Without developed comprehension skills, poor Mr. Rob did not understand that it was not yourself who wrote the piece above. After reading Rob’s post it became painfully clear that he is not too much of a challenge, but properly ‘stroked’ should provide some light entertainment. I might be wrong but he just could be a…….yes, a liberal. Their angst has become uncontrollable and one must wonder how we allow any of them to hold public office.

-- So (cr@t.es), March 11, 2001.

Hey Rob, does your mother know where you are at? You need to let her know that you have lost your temper, fallen down and can't get back up. Guys like you make me want to rise and shine early in the mornins! I certainly didn't author that wonderful piece like Socrates so discreetly pointed out to you but I'll sure as hell sign on to it. I agree with everybit of it except the part about Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman. That was one of my favorites. Didn't know it had liberal leanins?

-- Boswell (cjseed@webtv.net), March 11, 2001.

Well, Boswell, I'm one of them there bleeding heart commie pinko liberals, and I have to say that I've ALWAYS enjoyed your posts. You encourage laughter in my life probably more than any other poster here.

Personally, I agreed with a LOT of what the author stated said. We agree with SOME stuff, disagree on OTHER stuff, and THAT's what makes the world go 'round.

I'd better hurry up and post this. The thunder, lightning, and hail means my 'lectricity could go out any minute.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), March 12, 2001.



G'Day Boswell, Hello Anita,

Interesting post that reflects on issues not only effecting you affectionate Americans but others too, like OZ dwellers.

Once, many years ago new arrivals to OZ were asked to assimmilate.

Then it all went topsy turvy and OZ dudes were told to assimmilate to the outside and outsiders a-coming in. This was called multiculturalism and everyone began PC speak.

It apparently was global and thus we copped a globalism PC speak overdose that we now react against. And the reaction is big time in OZ. Elections are lost or won on the ability to express clearly the ideas of mixing it up culturally. Needless to say most candidates are bloody awful in the expressing themselves department making it a wonderfully interesting place for 'foot-in-mouth' syndrome among the power freakz.

Anyway, keep up the good work sticking it up the great unwashed. You are not alone in the glorious revolution...let's wreak havoc by starting with canning soapies made in Hollywood! Don't you mob make good sitcoms anymore?

Regardz from Zaadz being BAD in OZ

-- Pieter (zaadz@icisp.net.au), March 12, 2001.


I agree 100% Bos,and to the other posts,you arent weeding anyone out,WE are the majority,its just that some of us dont have the balls to say it!Thank God Bush Won,here's to 8 years of GUNS,GUTS and Glory!!!!!

-- Tommy Deatta (progun@hotmail.com), March 12, 2001.

To robs post,listen commie,i've a great idea to show everyone your different from the "money hungry RIGHT wing",next time your boss gives you a raise...say no thank you,Im not money hungry! Liberal=underachieving fakes! BUSH WON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

-- Mike Renner (rightis@right.com), March 12, 2001.

Thanks for so many kind words and support you fine people. Evidently I'm not so lonely as one poster would like to believe! And Anita, I might also disagree on a few things you believe but I always read every word you print looking for truth and honesty and I always see it somewhere.

-- Boswell (cjseed@webtv.net), March 12, 2001.

Hi Rob,

I just sent you an email to rob431@hotmail.com.

Boswell,

Your sheep are looking for you. The teenager is getting lonely for you again.

-- (You@know.who), March 12, 2001.



Most of this piece declares beliefs and personal preferences rather than facts, so there isn't really much to argue with. You could declare a ringing belief that the inside of your skull is filled with custard cream and not be wrong... about your believing that. (You might not even be so far wrong about the custard cream, but we'd have to open your head to find out.)

That much said, I have a few comments:

"I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, you do it in English."

Big news: there are MacDonalds restaurants in Russia. The employees in these restaurants (hold onto your hat, Boswell) sell Big Macs while speaking Russian. That is because the MacDonald's Corporation figured out that if you want to sell a product, you adapt yourself to the customer and customers think it is arrogant to expect them to adapt to you. Customers avoid this kind of establishment, if possible.

You are Exhibit A. You speak English, so you want to transact your business in English. Makes perfect sense. Now imagine you speak Spanish. Go ahead. Try. See if this suggests anything to you.

"I believe everyone has a right to pray to his or her God and they can do it in their schools."

The Supreme Court of the US agrees with you. Conduct offcial group prayers in a private school and nobody objects. Pray privately in a public school and you can pray all you want. God won't mind that the prayer isn't on the public address speakers. He can still hear it. The SCOTUS does, however, draw the line at you or anyone else making prayer an official activity in public schools.

Some people just can't grasp this not-so-subtle distinction. I suspect they don't even try.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), March 12, 2001.


Rob, are you and You Know Who a couple of you know whats? You guys need to expose yourself but for petes'sake not in front of one another. And Little Nipper, you've also proven my point. I agree 100% that MacDonalds Corp. SHOULD use Russian if they are marketing in Russia. That is their language and any foreigners over their that order should know Russian before steppin up to the counter.

-- Boswell (cjseed@webtv.net), March 12, 2001.

My dear Boswell, I am glad you took my point. Sad to say, there are some Americans out there who think that if the counterperson speaks Spanish to them, it is an insult, or some kind of a problem for anyone but for themselves. They presume they have a right to be spoken to in English, just because they are Americans.

You and I are smarter than that. We both know that we simply prefer English for our own needs. We know we have no "right" to be spoken to in English in a MacDonalds, no matter where it is. We just have the right to turn around, walk out, and go down the street to make our purchase at a place where we can speak English, if we can find one. As long as our money speaks for us chances are somebody will hear.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), March 12, 2001.


But I do feel I have the right to be spoken to in English if I order in this country. Even if it is a Latin-American bar or an Italian restaurant. If they want to set up shop in this country they should use the primary language and that is English. If they want to know 6 different others that is fine but the primary and first spoken should be English.

-- Boswell (cjseed@webtv.net), March 12, 2001.

Let me ask you this, Bos:

Should someone have to speak English to get a job in this country?

-- (Question@for.Boswell), March 12, 2001.


"I do feel I have the right to be spoken to in English if I order in this country." [emphasis added]

Feelings are no substitute for thinking, Bos. If I open a muffler shop in Toledo Ohio and I speak nothing but Serbo-Croatian, all that would happen is I'd either find enough customers to stay open, or I would go out of business. Nothing else. You could walk in. I would still speak Serbo-Croatian to you. You could walk out again - or not. Your choice.

It is called freedom. I thought you liked freedom, Bos.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), March 12, 2001.


While I agree I preferr/demand to be spoken to in English,it is not a right.I do though have the right to tell the owners of such a business my preferences/demands and not to patronize that business until they comply.

As a matter of fact I increasingly walk away,drive away or hang up when confronted with this situation,if for no other reason it's a big pain in the ass and/or an act of futility.

I mean hey,it's no skin of my nose if they don't get *my* money,someone will,and on *my* terms.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), March 12, 2001.


Boswell,the question here is do Americans speak English ? LOL

-- True Blue Brit (enquiries@griffenmill.com), March 12, 2001.

Mr. Nipper, I suggest that you open that muffler shop in Toledo ASAP. I have it on good authority that sales of mufflers to liberals are going to skyrocket in the next few months. A Lexus dealership could also be a wise investment. Keep the Serb away from the paying customers.

Mr. Capnfun, you are to be admired for your candid expressions.

-- So (cr@t.es), March 12, 2001.


Ah, Mr. Socr@tes, perhaps you could explain why you appear to think that the conservative's response, upon discovering that a local shopkeeper does not speak English when you enter his shop, should be:

1) go to your favorite branch of government,
2) fling yourself on the ground,
3) and whine, "Make him speak English, daddy! Make him! Make him! Make him!"

Perhaps I misunderstand your position. Perhaps you accept that what I said was perfectly reasonable in a free society, in contrast to 'feeling' you have a right to be addressed in English at all times, wherever you go in America. Perhaps I was misled by the fact that you completely sidestepped the issue by falling back on the empty, tired old tactic of calling me a "liberal", as if this conveyed some idea possessing meaning and significance - which it does not. Perhaps you would like to correct this oversight.

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), March 12, 2001.

4) While smiling, scream obscenities at this person for not learning the language of the land he/she has chosen to live in. As this person will not understand a single word you are saying you will be able to vent your spleen without offending.

Mr. Nipper sir, I would ask you to name one country in this world where this situation would be accepted. Greece? Not a chance. Mexico? Nada. France? Surely you jest. BTW, just what issues have I side- stepped?

And sir, I did not call you a liberal but you may confess if it will cleanse your soul.

-- So (cr@t.es), March 12, 2001.


Little Nipper,

I can't believe what I'm reading. Have you lost your mind. You are starting to sound like WND or Rush Limbaugh.

As any person with any sense knows, the correct thing to do is patronize the shops run by the non-English speakers - EVEN if they do screw up your order. How else do you think these people will succeed in America????

Its just a matter of time before you become a home-schooling, fundamentalist, holier-than-thou right-winger.

-- change your ways (or@else.youllbeconserativewacko), March 12, 2001.


Little Nipper, I am a conservative who loves it when people speak foriegn languages. If I do not get what I want, I'll probably shop elsewhere, but this does not mean that I do not enjoy ethnic diversity.



-- Dr. Pibb (dr.pibb@zdnetonebox.com), March 12, 2001.


Socr@tes: "BTW, just what issues have I side-stepped?"

Just one. The central one.

You haven't made clear whether you think it is perfectly acceptable for anyone in America to run their own business in the way they think is best, even if it means offending some potential customers, by speaking a language other than English?

Bear in mind that this includes the freedom to fail, the freedom to burn through their capital, and the freedom to make mistakes that are fatal to their chances for success - but the freedom to make these mistakes free from government interference.

I happen to think that everybody should have this freedom. How about you?

-- Little Nipper (canis@minor.net), March 12, 2001.


Liberal=bitter underachiever...What do you call a liberal that just won the million dollar lottery?.........a conservative!

-- Mitch Riechter (progun@nra.com), March 12, 2001.

But hell Mitch, if I won the million dollar lottery, i might become a liberal. I'd probably corrupt myself!

-- Boswell (cjseed@webtv.net), March 12, 2001.

Ah my dear Mr. Nipper, I fear it will be required of me to be most specific when communicating with you. Let me start by clarifying my position regarding the massive immigration movement to the U.S. in the past 20 years. Because there is no historical model to learn from, the current inhabitants of the United States are rushing down dark, uncharted waters. It is so foolish to compare the immigrants that made this country great to the current crop. Building from early ‘English’ roots, the U.S. was built by the Europeans that came here to start a 'new' life. For the most part, they shared some common culture and history. Many of them, by birth, were bitter enemies within the confines of their individual countries. They came to the United States to become something 'different', free to build a 'new' life and become an AMERICAN. They came here 'legally' and in time, blended together to 'work' for and share the American dream. This country was a big fresh piece of real estate back then and times, they were a different. So very, very simple back then. They were willing to burn through ‘their’ capital, not yours and mine.

Then it was WE, now it is ME.

I think I’ll stop now and let you think about it.

-- So (cr@t.es), March 13, 2001.


"What do you call a liberal that just won the lottery" A WELLFARE RECEPIANT!!!!!

-- Bosco (denden18@hotmail.com), March 13, 2001.

Oh Socrates. How far you've fallen. You've allowed your fears of other languages, cultures and colors to blind you to the fact that the immigrants that come to the US now do so for the same reason they came 100 years ago, to find a better life.

Ah well. It's a common failing. If you had spent any efforts understanding American history, you would know that the current wave of immigration, far from having no historical model, has been repeated time and time again, from the southern European immigrants to the Chinese railroad workers and on and on. You would also know that people have always said essentially the same thing that you said, roughly: Other immigrants were a credit to our country, but these immigrants are not. They don't speak English, they have different habits and religions and they probably have different goals, too

-- Plato (plato@hemlock.com), March 13, 2001.


What an interesting discussion. What some seem to miss, however, is that those european immigrants did not speak English, either, and many of the older folk STILL only speak the native tounge-Why is it that the european languages were so inoffensive, but when spanish is heard people cringe and say those folk should learn english.

This is prejudice, plain and simple.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), March 13, 2001.


FS and Plato-

Good points. At various times in our immigration history, we have seen huge rises in immigration coupled with attempts to limit immigration by the government. It's interesting that you brought up Chinese railroad workers. The public was so concerned with the huge numbers of these immigrants that a number of laws were passed to severely restict, if not eliminate, all Chinese immigration. Angel island, in San Francisco bay, became a holding pen for would-be Chinese immigrants until the mid-30's or so, and Japanese immigration was strictly illegal for a number of years in the late 19th century. Of course, it wasn't just Asians, other groups had their immigration restricted as well at different points.

Of course, when different groups gained entry to the US, they often formed their own ethnic enclaves where their native language was spoken (often to the exclusion of English) and their own customs followed. I wonder how many people complained of ethnic exclusion when the North End in Boston became an Italian neighborhood? I wonder how many people said Toledo's Hungarians weren't interested in becoming American because they tended to group together?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), March 13, 2001.


Interesting discussion on immigration, one which I know something about. (For the record, my parents were born in Italy and I work with Mexicans who are extremely hard workers, in construction.) Boswell's point IMO stems from the movement to have two languages in the US. People migrate here for a better life, work hard for that life and succeed (most times) better than our own citizens on welfare. However to demand that the official language change to Spanish to accommodate a particular (small) group of people isn't right. These people can form their own communities for support but they don't have the right to demand that businesses change over to Spanish for the sole purpose to suit their needs. Just my view of the apples and oranges being discussed here.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), March 13, 2001.

Ah Plato me lad, my time with you was all too short. Your attention span seems to have deteriorated so allow me to repeat this basic lesson for you:

Then it was WE, now it is ME.

-- So (cr@t.es), March 13, 2001.


There were a couple great articles on this subject in Harpers magazine a couple years ago. I don't have a link, it's probably not even online, but one of the strongest arguments that I came away with from the articles was that a common language shared by a nation binds it together while allowing cultural diversity to meld with that nation's dominant culture. If there is no common language, assimilation is slower and there is a balkanization of communities.

Interesting sidenote - many international financial and banking comanies conduct their major meetings in English. I think the largest bank in the Netherlands has this policy. I'm not really sure why, but it does seem like English may be becoming the "lingua Franca" of finance and technology companies.

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), March 13, 2001.


However to demand that the official language change to Spanish to accommodate a particular (small) group of people isn't right. These people can form their own communities for support but they don't have the right to demand that businesses change over to Spanish for the sole purpose to suit their needs.

Maria, the US does not have an official language, thus it is impossible to change it to anything. If you need me to explain this more slowly, I will. Moreover, Hispanics are now roughly thirteen percent of the population, at 35,000,000. Here's a link for reference. This is hardly a small group!

Now, I haven't seen any group, large or small, "demanding" that businesses change over to Spanish (or any other language). But maybe you have, and if so, consider this an invitation to provide documentation. A business owner in an area with a heavy population density of ANY group would do well to cater to them. After all, the only truly universal language is money.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), March 13, 2001.


Then it was WE, now it is ME.

No. It was never "we".

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), March 13, 2001.


Minority populations skyrocket

The groups now make up nearly one-third of U.S.

March 13, 2001

By DAVID WESTPHAL

McClatchy Newspapers

WASHINGTON Racial minorities and Hispanics accounted for up to 80 percent of the nation's population growth in the 1990s, the Census Bureau reported Monday, marking a dramatic acceleration in the nation's march to a more diverse populace.

Led by a huge increase in the Hispanic population along with fast growth among Asians, the number of minorities soared to nearly 87 million, up 43 percent from 1990. That was sharper even than the 33 percent growth rate of the 1980s.

Hispanics and racial minorities now make up nearly one- third of the United States' 281 million populace, and over the last 20 years have grown by better than 90 percent. During that same period, the white population that is not Hispanic increased just 7.6 percent, according to the Census Bureau.

"The nation is much more diverse in 2000 than it was in 1990," said John Long of the Census Bureau's population division, "and that diversity is more complex than before."

The complexity was fed by the government's decision to give Americans the option of selecting more than one race in the 2000 Census. Nearly 7 million people, or 2.4 percent, made that choice, and the overwhelming number marked two racial categories. (A question on whether someone was "Hispanic" or "non-Hispanic" was separate from a question asking about race. The government considers "Hispanic" an ethnicity, not a race; people of Hispanic ethnicity can be of any race.)

Because of the multiracial option, which yields up to 63 different racial combinations, comparisons with the 1990 census are difficult.

But the data suggest powerful growth among most racial minorities - at least 48 percent among Asians, 26 percent among Native Americans and Alaska Natives, 16 percent among blacks and 9 percent among Native Hawaiians and Pacific Islanders.

Twenty years ago, Hispanics and racial minorities made up just 20 percent of the populace. Today, according to a Census Bureau computation that counts as minority anyone who checked more than one race, they account for 31 percent of the nation.

The primary reason for the faster-than-expected growth appears to be the Hispanic population, which soared nearly 58 percent during the 1990s and reached a rough parity with African-Americans at 35.3 million people.

Demographer William Frey said the numbers mark a milestone in Hispanics' emergence as the nation's "major minority. ... We're absolutely going to see fundamental changes in our politics and culture." The increase appears to be related to a fanning out of Hispanics from traditional entry points like Texas, California, Florida and New York.

Texas, for example, saw its vast Hispanic population of 6.7 million grow at a slower rate than the nation as a whole in the 1990s. By comparison, Virginia and Wisconsin saw their much smaller Hispanic numbers double; Iowa's grew 150 percent; Arkansas' more than quadrupled.

Not far behind in growth rate were Asian-Americans, whose population topped 10 million for the first time. The Asian increase of at least 48 percent was less than half that of the 1980s, but still accounted for 10 percent of the nation's 1990 growth.

Here again, although only a handful of state data have been reported so far by the Census Bureau, the growth appears to be strong outside traditional Asian states like California and Washington.

The Asian populace grew by more than two-thirds, for example, in Vermont, Arkansas, Virginia and Wisconsin.

While experiencing a much slower growth rate, African- Americans saw their numbers increase at a faster clip than in the 1980s.

Among all racial groups, the Census Bureau's multiracial option last year offers the opportunity for very different profiles of minority growth.

For example, the number of Americans identifying themselves as American Indian and Alaska Native on the census form grew 26 percent last year to 2.5 million. But if the totals also include those who marked American Indian and Alaska Native plus one or more other races, the result balloons to 4.1 million.

The more-than-one race option was added to this census because of pressure from groups representing mixed- race couples. Bennett said the number of mixed-race marriages grew from about 500,000 in 1970 to nearly 2 million in 1990.



-- Stick (2@the.facts), March 13, 2001.


….No. It was never "we".

Mr. Tarzan, I invite you to explain the above statement. It would appear that you oppose the concept that our early immigrants were working together for common goals. You may consider this an invitation to provide documentation.

You also have stated that the US does NOT have an official language. You sir are a hair splitter of the worst order. Foolish remarks such as this will disqualify you as a learned debater.

-- So (cr@t.es), March 13, 2001.


Maria, the US does not have an official language, thus it is impossible to change it to anything. If you need me to explain this more slowly, I will. Please do.

Moreover, Hispanics are now roughly thirteen percent of the population, at 35,000,000. Here's a link for reference. This is hardly a small group! Small is a relative term now isn't it? When considered for income tax, 13% seems too large for the lower income brackets and way too small for the upper income brackets. Thanks for your definition of the number of Hispanics in this country as not being small. But frankly I don't give a shit how YOU define it.

Now, I haven't seen any group, large or small, "demanding" that businesses change over to Spanish (or any other language). But maybe you have, and if so, consider this an invitation to provide documentation. This was a big deal, all over the newpapers a few years back in little Havana. No link. I sympathize with your having such short memory.

A business owner in an area with a heavy population density of ANY group would do well to cater to them. After all, the only truly universal language is money. Ah, couldn't agree more.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), March 13, 2001.


Little Nipper,
I can't believe what I'm reading. Have you lost your mind. You are starting to sound like WND or Rush Limbaugh.

As any person with any sense knows, the correct thing to do is patronize the shops run by the non-English speakers - EVEN if they do screw up your order. How else do you think these people will succeed in America????

Its just a matter of time before you become a home-schooling, fundamentalist, holier-than-thou right-winger.

-- what about it lil nipper? (what@is.happening?), March 13, 2001.


It would appear that you oppose the concept that our early immigrants were working together for common goals. You may consider this an invitation to provide documentation.

No. I oppose the concept that our early immigrants were working together without self-interest. These are people who moved to the US to find a better life for themselves, not to make a better country. These are people who came to the US to find streets of gold, not to improve the overall standard of living for their neighbors. These are people who moved to the US so their children could one day be more successful than they were, not so they could fuel a nation's economy with their labor. The factors that motivate men and women to leave behind everything familiar and start over again in a foreign country haven't changed one bit. It just so happens that these self- interests, taken together, have a positive effect. Moreover, if they hadn't been able to fulfill these self-interests here in the US, they would have gone somewhere else. Cuba will accept defectors who want to work together and build a nation, but you can't get rich in Cuba and you can't leave, so why go there? Who gives a rats ass about building a country when you don't have two dimes to rub together?

Your Then it was we, now it is me doggerel also ignores the fact that the US was extremely unwilling to accept many groups of immigrants, even the ones who spoke English as a primary language, such as the Irish. For much of our history, very few immigrants were welcomed with open arms. As a nation, we virtually closed our doors to immigrants at several points in order to preserve America for the Americans. So much for "we".

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), March 13, 2001.


Small is a relative term now isn't it? When considered for income tax, 13% seems too large for the lower income brackets and way too small for the upper income brackets.

Oh Maria. Poor, sweet, learning-impaired Maria. We are not talking taxes, Maria. We are talking about a substantial portion of the population, one that is roughly equal to African Americans now. Do try to keep up with the subject at hand!

This was a big deal, all over the newpapers a few years back in little Havana. No link. I sympathize with your having such short memory.

Frankly, I have caught you in so many lies lately that I refuse to believe anything you say at face value. Surely if this were "all over the newspapers" there would be something you could find on the web. I won't hold my breath.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), March 13, 2001.


Ooops. Looks like I forgot Maria'a request for an explanation of how the US does not have an official language. Here it is, for our slower readers, such as Maria.

The United States has simply never had an official language. Ever. There is an urban legend that English won out as our official language over German by one vote during the 1790's of our country. The legend seems to have arisen from some early fighting about whether or not to provide documents in both English and German. We've been fighting about how multi-lingual we should be since the very start of our nation.

Because the US does not have an official language, many states have taken it upon themselves to have an official state language. Some of these cases have ended up in court. I won't bore you with the details here. There is an amendment to make English our primary language. It is called the ELA (English Language Amendment) and has been before Congress since the early 80's. On the other side of the argument, Clinton signed Executive Order 13166 which mandates that all federal agencies provide access to their federally conducted activities in additional languages.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), March 13, 2001.


Oh Maria. Poor, sweet, learning-impaired Maria. We are not talking taxes, Maria. We are talking about a substantial portion of the population, one that is roughly equal to African Americans now. Do try to keep up with the subject at hand!

Did that make you feel better? I hope so because you're now looking like an asshole. The subject was the word "small" (which you found so objectionable - "This [13%] is hardly a small group!") But since I know you can't read, I anticipated your response. Disengage.

-- A Mind (is@terrible.thing.to.waste), March 13, 2001.


The subject was the word "small" (which you found so objectionable - "This [13%] is hardly a small group!") But since I know you can't read, I anticipated your response. Disengage.

Wow Maria, even your fake handles are stupid.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), March 13, 2001.


But the reality of it is,is that English is the unofficial-official language in the U.S and if immigrants do not want to assimilate for them and their chidrens benefit so be it,it's a free country.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), March 13, 2001.

My son will [probably] start University in Bergen in the fall. He said he wanted to get a part-time job while going to school. This is always difficult for an International student, but I have a lot of family there with some connections. My cousin and I were chatting about this a few days ago. She'd lived in Norway for a year and worked at a bank. She said that she'd encourage him to get a job, simply because if he only practices Norwegian with the family, they're likely to switch to English if they see he is having problems with Norwegian.

So, two things are in play here. If one communicates with only family and folks who speak your native language, you'll not learn the language, but if you don't know the language, how can you be successful on a job where you deal with folks who ONLY speak the language?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), March 13, 2001.


If one communicates with only family and folks who speak your native language, you'll not learn the language, but if you don't know the language, how can you be successful on a job where you deal with folks who ONLY speak the language? By picking a job that doesn't require much translation or by having a translator always present. My grandparents never learned the language, yet I can assure you they were "successful", never on welfare (my grandfather even held a job through the depression), provided for large Italian families. The Mexicans at the construction site don't know a lick of English yet I continue to hire them because their work is impeccable. Somehow we communicate.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), March 13, 2001.

Maria: That makes sense, and I may even encourage it for the first year while the language studies prepare him for the next years. However, if the goal is less to make money than immerse one's self in conversation with locals to improve a command of the language, it accomplishes nothing.

He'd be staying at a hostel for International students, so there's no chance of getting Norwegian roommates. Knowing him, if had a choice, he'd probably pick German students, as he's quite fluent in German. Hopefully [unlike his mother and his other relatives] he can keep his languages straight. I can start a conversation in Spanish and end up talking Norwegian. My cousin's wife [a native of Norway] starts a conversation in English and ends up talking German. It's like there's a key to "foreign languages" in the brain, but as soon as we get stuck on a word in ONE language, the other just flows out.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), March 13, 2001.


Tarzan is right.

-- dudesy (dudesy@37.com), March 13, 2001.

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