Greetings brothers and siters in Jesus: Why are there many whose reading of Gods word diminishing? By Gods grace we can read the word in this country of ours. We live in times of evil deception! There are those who would say that the Catholic doctrine is of God. If you truly know Jesus, you would know that that is not true. We have been called to preach the word, but if many arent living the word it's impoosibile. I trust that the Lord has his remanant that shall rise up above the foolish knowledge of the world, and preach Christ and Him crucified. As Gods word says in Daniel knowledge shall increase in the last days. We need people of faith in the the living God to speak out against all the false doctrines of our land, that God may open their hearts to be saved. Be strenthened in the Lord saints and rise up!!

-- Anonymous, February 24, 2001

Answers

Brethren:

I just thought it would be good in this connection to give the scriptural support for the assertion that faith comes by hearing the word of God. I too admonish us all to incerase our faith by reading daily and diligently the word of God. Also let us remember that no one can have faith in Christ until they hear the gospel and they cannot be saved until they obey that gospel. (2 Thess 1:7-9) For the Gospel is the "power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth to the Jew First and also to the Greek." (Romans 1:16) And God has determined throuth the "foolishness of preaching" that gospel to save them that believe enough to obey it. (1 Cor. 1:18; Heb. 5:8,9;2 THess. 1:8,9). Thus we can understand that we are therefore saved by the Gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4) and lost if we do not obey it (2 Thess. 1:8,9). And the gospel is the fact that Christ died, was buried and raised again the third day (1 Cor. 15:1-4). How then are we to "obey" the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. THe answer is found in (Romans 6:3-6,17). Thus it is in our faithful obedience to Christ Command to be "buried with him in baptism" (ROmans 6:3-6,17) that we might also be raised with Him to walk in newness of life. There is no other way to obey the facts of the gospel except by reliving those facts by faith in Christ as we die to our sins and yield to being buried with Christ our Lord in the waters of baptism and thus raise from those waters rejoicing that we have received the remission of our sins (Acts 2:38) and thereby we are baptiszed into Christ (Gal. 3:26,27) and we are then, and only then be "new creatures* in Christ. (2 Cor. 5:17). Now there is just no other way to obey the gospel. For the gospel is a set of facts to be believed. How are we to obey those facts? By imatating them according to the command of Christ in baptism. (Icor. 15:1-4;Mark 16:15-16; Romans 6:3- 6,17). Thus we can understand why we are told that we are SAVED by that gospel (1 COr. 15:1-4) and the preaching of it (1 Cor. 1:18-22) and are commanded to obey it and if we do not obey it we are promised eternal destruction from the presence of God and the glory of his power. ( 1 Peter 4:18;2 Thess. 1:8,9). Therefore we can see that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to them that OBEY him (Heb. 5:8,9).

And that faith cometh by hearing the word of God and that after hearing that word we are expected to obey the gospel in response to it is proven by the following passage (note that those who had not beyed the gospel were those who did not believe it when it was preached):

“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.” (Romans 10:13-21)

My friends, do not be a "disobedient and gainsaying people" as were the Jews who rejected Christ by refusing to obey the gospel. I urge all who have not obeyed the gospel from the heart to do so this very day. (Romans 6:3-6;17) before it is everlastingly too late (2 Thess. 1:8,9).

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2001

E. Lee Saffold:

The breadth of your error and self-delusion are simply astonishing. You have taken a series of almost unrelated passages to create a doctrine of baptism and works that is in direct conflict with the truth of the true gospel. And you call that "scriptural support for the assertion that faith comes by hearing the word, and finish by urging those who have not obeyed your understanding of the gospel before it is "everlastingly too late." Well, lets look at your scriptural proofs:

Your first statement, that, "no one can have faith in Christ until they hear the gospel" is supported later in your post by Rom. 10:12-21. A great passage about the command to spread the gospel, and presented as a series of questions with implied answers. No one should doubt we are commanded to bring the gospel to others from the instructions given throughout the Bible.

Your next comment is where you start to get into trouble. You say that no one can, "be saved until they obey that gospel" using 2 Thess 1:7-9. You then proceed to argue that obedience to the gospel comes down to this, a baptism by immersion. But when you read the passage cited it is talking about obeying the gospel without one word about baptism. We have disputed this at length, and you know I believe baptism is required in obedience to God; but the passage you cite is not about baptism. It is about "perseverance and faith" 1:4, "those who have believed" 1:10, "every act prompted by your faith" 1:11, "according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ"1:12. For your gospel of salvation through obedience in baptism you need to look elsewhere.

You next quote Rom 1:16, but do not credit what it is telling you. It is the "power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the gentile"; and you leave off, "For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: 'The righteous will live by faith.'" The gospel being presented, and what leads to salvation by the power of God, is a gospel that is "by faith from first to last". Faith, not works or obedience. We are certainly commanded to be obedient, but the gospel is not based on that obedience. It is based on faith.

Then you tie together 1 Cor. 1:18; Heb. 5:8,9;2 to reach a conclusion that is just not in the passages. 1 Cor. 1:18 reads "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." And what is the foolishness being referred to here? It follows in v. 21-24: "to save those who believed" and to those whom God has called", and "Christ, the power of God." Not a word about you gospel of obedience in baptism. Again you need to look elsewhere.

In Heb. 5:8-9 You take the words spoken about Christ "he became the source of salvation for all who obey him" to conclude that obedience results in salvation. That is not what is stated here. Certainly all who are called and have faith and are saved, are commanded to be obedient to Christ - all of the commands, not just some of our choosing. The passage does not imply that those who are obedient will earn salvation; but rather that if we are saved we will necessarily be obedient, and that those that are not saved are incapable of an acceptable obedience. I have no idea what your 2 refers to.

You then proceed with some bald mis-statements of the meaning of scripture:

"saved by the gospel" from you is actually "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you"… "that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter and then the twelve."…"this is what we preach, and this is what you believed." It is not the gospel of baptism you preach that saves, but the gospel of Jesus Christ who died for us and was raised from the dead. Again, no mention of the baptism gospel you are stating is supported by these texts.

How do you make that connection? You use Rom. 6:3-16 as if it describes how we are to be obedient to the gospel of Jesus Christ. You go so far as to say there is no other way to be obedient to the gospel except by reliving the death of Christ through immersion. But as I noted above, the gospel in every other verse you quoted is not about baptism, but about Christ; and in every one of the letters the essentials of the elements of salvation must have been presented. They were, and they are faith in Jesus Christ. The verses in Romans you use are the only place in Romans baptism is mentioned at all, and it is written to describe how the redeemed in Christ ought to live. So that, "we should no longer be slaves to sin", "count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus", "For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace." But you use "slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness" v. 16 as if it says obedience earns salvation. It does not. It simply summaries the message of the entire book of James, "Faith without works is dead." And that really means that true faith will necessarily result in living a life of obedience. Faith is still what saves; but true faith will require obedience, as a consequence of salvation, in gratitude and service. Not that we will live in obedience perfectly, but that we are working toward the perfection we will arrive at in glory.

We have discussed our disagreement over the meaning of Acts 2:38 at length already. I will just summarize that it does not mean what you seem intent on making it mean to fit you gospel of baptism.

You then refer to Gal. 3:26-27, but you seem to ignore v. 26, and in fact all of 15 - 29. You want to take v. 27 out of context and ignore what is being addressed here. And that is the central place of faith, that the law leads us to Christ, and that we are justified by faith. It does not say we are justified by baptism. "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." V. 29. And how do we belong to Christ? You want to connect that directly to baptism, but again that is not the entire passage. In v. 14 we read, "He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the gentiles through Jesus Christ, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." It is through faith and the work of the Holy Spirit that we belong to Christ, of which baptism is the symbol.

You refer to 2 Cor. 5:17, which states "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation; the old has gone and the new has come!" But you state it as if it results from baptism. The passage is not about baptism (again). The next words are "All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ…" It is salvation that brings us "in Christ" and that salvation is "from God", and you have just imposed your gospel of baptism on a passage that does not even mention it.

And then you refer to passages about baptism as a command of Christ, as if this command is in another higher category of obedience than every other command. Certainly the early church recognized it as a sacrament along with the Lord's Supper, but only Mark 16:15-16 refers to that. I have already addressed I Cor. 5:1-4 and Rom. 6:3-16 so lets look at Mark. It reads, "…Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." "Believes" comes first again, so faith is the first requirement of salvation; and I have reminded you over and over that true faith requires obedience including baptism as a consequence of the salvation we have through faith. Note that only lack of faith, "does not believe", results in condemnation. This does nothing to prove your gospel of baptism. Rather it restates the gospel of Christ, by faith.

You again misstate conclusions from scripture that are not found in the passages you refer to, and state that we are promised eternal destruction if we do not obey your gospel of baptism, and you use 1 Peter 4:18, and 2 Thess. 1:8-9. I already addressed your errors regarding 2 Thess., so lets look at 1 Peter. It reads, "And if it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" Obviously a rhetorical question with an implied answer - destruction and damnation. But what are the ungodly and sinners being compared with? The righteous! And how are sinners made righteous? Certainly not by their obedience, as we know from all the verses that tell us none are righteous apart from Christ. So what is this telling us? Not that our obedience is required for salvation, but that the righteousness of Christ is required for salvation. And we get that righteousness by faith. Peter writes a practical book about how to live, but the gospel of Christ is still presented. See 1 Peter 3-12. Again, salvation is not presented as requiring baptism, but baptism certainly follows salvation.

I have already addressed all your other passages, except Romans 10:13-21. I am not sure why you used it, because it does not support your case at all. Baptism is not mentioned at all, but our mission to preach the gospel of Christ (not a gospel of baptism) is very clear. Perhaps you think that the fact we are to preach is in conflict with sovereign election by God? Not so. Many passages of scripture are written from the point of view of man, and what we are to do in obedience; while others are written from the point of view of an eternal God who has all things in the palm of his hand. The Bible was written for man, but it does not explain God just as it does not explain the universe. The Bible does not resolve all the passages that describe what seems to be the free will of man, and those that affirm the omnipotent eternal sovereignty of God. They are both in there, but the fact we are to preach the gospel does not prove that the sovereignty of God is somehow limited when it comes to who will be saved.

So now I have written one of the length you use, but not in you style I hope. You may think I read passages from a Calvinist bias, but you do the same from an RM bias. Proof texts that ignore the context, and actually support the opposite position. Conclusions that are not supported by the texts at all. Proofs taken from separate places to reach the conclusion you already have in mind. I am reminded of the Bible student who used the Bible "as a guide for life". He opened one passage and read "Judas went out and hanged himself." And opened another and read "Go thou and do likewise."

Enough for tonight. May you find the true gospel of Christ, before it is everlastingly too late.

-- Anonymous, February 26, 2001

DBVZ:

You have said:

“E. Lee Saffold: The breadth of your error and self-delusion are simply astonishing.”

Now, that is a fine assertion but where is the proof of it. I do not doubt that one with your Calvinistic background would be astonished at seeing for the first time the true gospel of Christ presented. But we press on even though you are prejudiced against the truth and have demonstrated a complete unwillingness to give it a fair hearing in the light of God’s eternal word.

Then you say:

“ You have taken a series of almost unrelated passages to create a doctrine of baptism and works that is in direct conflict with the truth of the true gospel.”

Another fine assertion as far as mere assertions go but it is useless without your taking the time to prove your assertion to be the truth. And from reading your response it is clear to me that you have not even remotely understood what I have written. In fact, the passages that I have quoted are very much related. And I have at least attempted to show their relation to each other by showing that they speak of the same subject and give us more details so that the sum of all that is found in them amounts to the truth about the matter. For God’s word says, “the sum of they word is truth”.

Inasmuch as you have completely missed the point and the connection of these verses with each other I will simply try one more time to express it to you. For this is all I have time to do at the moment.

Let us read what the word of God has to say about the relationship the Gospel sustains to salvation of the souls of men.

“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.” 1 Cor. 4:15

We can see from this passage that the Corinthians were “begotten by the gospel”. This shows a relationship between the gospel that was preached and being begotten of God.

“For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!”(1Cor.9: 16)

This shows that without doubt there is a sense of urgency and the clear expectation of God the gospel is preached. It is an urgent matter for salvation is connected to the preaching of the gospel. (Romans 1:16,17).

Then Paul makes it as clear as the nose on your face that we are SAVED BY THAT GOSPEL.

“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word that was preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received; that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures.” 1Cor 5:1-4.

Now Paul makes a clear connection in this verse between the gospel and our salvation for he tells us concerning the gospel, “by which also ye are saved”. Then he shows that even the salvation that comes through the gospel is conditional by saying, “if ye hold fast the word, which I preached unto you unless you have believed in vain”. He also indicates that it is possible for one to have “believed in vain” if they do not hold fast to the gospel. He also gives in this verse a definition of the gospel. The gospel consist of certain facts to be believed. Paul gives them here, “that Christ died for our sins according to the scripture and that he was buried and that he raised on the third day according to the scriptures”. Thus according to this verse the gospel is the facts concerning the death burial and resurrection of Christ. And these are the facts that were must believe in order to our salvation according to the inspired apostle Paul.

But then Paul says something else about the gospel to the Thessalonians that is frightening and ominous. And it is connected to his definition of the gospel in 1 Corinthians by virtue of his using the word “gospel” which he defined for the Corinthians. But he uses a phrase that is often used in the New Testament which does not fit the language of most modern theologians today and without Paul’s definition of the gospel given to the Corinthians we would be at a loss to comprehend his meaning. For this reason the two verses are connected in the sense that one helps to partially explain the other.

To them he said:

“And to you that are afflicted rest with us, at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his power in flaming fire rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus: who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of His might.” (2 Thess. 1: 7-9). Now here the same apostle Paul that defined the gospel to the Corinthians and told them that they were saved by the gospel and that if they forgot that gospel and turned from it they would have believed in vain. This same apostle warns that Christ is coming in flaming fire to “render vengeance” on those who know not God, and those who OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL. This verse is verily relative to the subject that Paul was discussing for in one place he talks of how the Corinthians were SAVED by the gospel and defines that gospel so that there is no question or doubt as to what the gospel is that saves us. It is the truth that Christ died, was buried and raised again that is the gospel that saves us. Then to the Thessalonians he describes the horrible consequence that will come at the appearing of Christ upon those who do not “OBEY THAT GOSPEL” which saved the Corinthians. For there is no doubt that Paul preached the same gospel to the Thessalonians that he preached to the Corinthians. For he said to the Galatians, “but though we or an Angel from heaven should preach unto you any other gospel that which we preached unto you let him be anathema.” (Galatians 1:8). And those who do not obey the gospel according to Paul will be punished with everlasting destruction.

Therefore it immediately becomes extremely important to any thinking person to determine just what Paul meant when he said, “obey not the gospel”. For if we “obey not the gospel” we will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of God. This explains the reason that I quoted Peter’s words concerning this matter for he too used the exact same Phrase that Paul used which we must know the meaning of, because we would not want to be among those who obey not the gospel now would we? Peter said, “For the time is come for judgement to begin at the house of God: and if it begin with us what shall be the end of them that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF GOD?” (1 Peter 4:17). Now this verse gives us information to help us understand this phrase “obey not the gospel” used by two inspired apostles. It is clear from this passage that those who were in the house of God were those who had obeyed the gospel and those who had not obeyed the gospel were not in God’s house or family. And this passage is related to the one Paul wrote to the Thessalonians in that Peter ask a question that Paul answers. He asked what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel? And Paul gives the clear answer to that question when he told the Thessalonians that those who obey not the gospel shall be punished with everlasting destruction form the face of God and the power of His might. So, when you claim that these passages are not related to each other you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. They are without doubt connected in that they are speaking of the same subject matter. And it is clear that one verse answers a question that was asked in the other verse. Therefore they are verily related!

But still we do not have an answer to another question of great importance. A question that is brought to view in the light of what is said in all of the above scriptures. We know that we are saved by the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4). We know that it is possible to have “believed in vain” (1Cor. 15: 2,3). We know that the gospel is a set of facts to be believed concerning the death of Christ for our sins, his burial and his resurrection on the third day from the dead. And we know that it is possible and required for us to obey the gospel of Christ and we know the end of them that obey not the gospel. But we do not know HOW or by what means we can obey the gospel, which we must do or be eternally punished by God. In other words we do not yet know how we can OBEY the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ which is the gospel facts to be believed instead of commands to be obeyed. And we therefore seek to know if there are any commands of God that provides the means whereby we can obey the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

Therefore we find another passage of Scripture from Paul which without question shows us a command of God that provides the only means found in the entire New Testament for anyone to OBEY the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, or to obey the gospel. Let us read it together:

For Paul speaks of it briefly after having explained it in detail with these words. “Know ye not that to whom ye present yourselves as servants to obey his servants ye are to whom ye obey whether of sin unto death or of obedience unto righteous ness? But thanks be to God, that whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that FORM OF DOCTRINE wherein ye were delivered. And being then made free from sin ye became the servants of righteousness.” (Romans 6:16-18) Thus we see that there these Romans were at one time the servants of sin. And then the Romans became “obedient from the heart” to a “form of doctrine” and were thereby “delivered” and made “free from sin” at that point in time. Is it even remotely possible that obeying this particular “form of doctrine” might be related to being obedient to the gospel of Christ? And if so is that form of doctrine the means of our being able to obey the death, burial and resurrection of Christ or the gospel of Christ that we might be saved. For there is no doubt that this form of doctrine was what allowed the Romans to be delivered. And we know that there were strangers from Rome in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost. And that they therefore heard Peter say “repent and be Baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins” (Acts 2: 38) and that they could have been among those three thousand that gladly received Peter’s words and were baptized? Well let us see what Paul has to say about this “form of Doctrine”. This is found in the sixth chapter of Romans and Paul in Romans 6:16-18 was summing up his words about this subject of not living any longer in sin that grace may abound which he began discussing in the beginning of the chapter as follows. What shall we say then, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? (A question that would never occur naturally to a Calvinist) God forbid WE, who died to sin, how shall we live any longer therein? Or are ye ignorant that all we who are immersed into Christ are immersed into his death? We were immersed therefore through immersion into death: THAT LIKE AS CHRIST WAS RAISED FORM THE DEAD THROUGH THE GLORY OF THE FATHER WE ALSO SHOULD WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE.” (Romans 6:3-4).

Now finally we see a “form of doctrine” (Romans 6:17) that provides a means whereby we can OBEY the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. For it was Christ that commanded baptism and hence when we are baptized we are being obedient to Christ. But we are also without doubt being obedient to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, which is the same as saying we are being obedient to the gospel. For according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 the gospel is facts that Christ died, was buried and raised the third day according to the scriptures. And also we are expected to obey this gospel and the only way that could be done would be for us to have commands to obey that are related to the facts of the gospel that we must believe. How can we obey the death burial and resurrection of Christ? There is only one way given in the inspired word of God. We can obey the gospel or the death burial and resurrection of Christ when we obey his commands to be immersed. And this is the only way that the gospel of Christ, i.e. the death burial and resurrection of Christ can be obeyed. And this is when we transfer our allegiance from being servants of sins to being servants of righteousness and that is when we are delivered from sin. (Romans 6:16-18).

Now, I hope that you can see that these scriptures are very much related to one another and help us to answer a very important question related to our soul's salvation. That question being how does one obey the death burial and resurrection of Christ. And the answer is clear to those honest enough to objectively consider it. We obey the gospel (the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ 1 Cor. 15:1-4) when we are baptized into Christ (Gal. 3; 26,27; Romans 6:3-6) and that is when we are delivered from being slaves or servants of sin and become servants of righteousness. (Romans 6:16- 18).

Therefore the thoughtful and discerning can see that I have quoted passages that are related to each other and the very subject of obedience to the gospel.

Now, let us consider several other verses concerning the relation between the gospel and our salvation.

“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:”(2 Cor. 4:3). Is it not reasonable that if the gospel is “hid to them that are lost” that those who cannot find it and obey it (2 Thess. 1:8,9) are therefore lost? And if one cannot obey the gospel without being baptized they would therefore be in danger of being as lost as one to whom the gospel was hid if they do not humbly submit to and obey the command of Christ to be immersed. (Mark 16:16). Especially since obedience to the gospel is essential to salvation. (1 Cor. 15:1-4; 2 Thess. 1:7-9; Romans 6:3-6;16-18).

And be warned that the “god of this world” does not want you to even come into contact with the gospel much less does he want you to obey it to be saved.

“In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them, which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” (2Cor. 4:4).

That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: (Eph. 3:6) Here Paul tells us that the Gentiles are of the same body and partakers of his promise in Christ and that this is done by the gospel.

For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; (Col. 1:5)

“If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;” (Col.1: 23). Notice the words “IF YE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH and not moved from the hope of the gospel.” The hope of the gospel is conditioned upon our continuing in the faith.

And we are called by the gospel.

“Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”(2Thess. 2:14).

And life and immortality is brought to light through the gospel and it is obtained in our obedience through faith to that gospel.

“But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:” (2Tim.1: 10). Christ abolished death and brought life and immortality to light by the gospel. Then where is there any hope for anyone who has not heard and obey that Gospel? For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. (Heb. 4:2)

Now the above is the truth. We must obey the gospel of Christ, which is the fact that Christ died for our sins, was buried and raised the third day. And the only way that we can OBEY the gospel (the death burial and resurrection of Christ) is by being “buried with him by baptism into death that like as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the father we also should walk in newness of life."”(Romans 6:3-6,16-18).

SO much for your absurd notion that these passages have no relation to one another. I have shown their clear and certain relation to all that are honest and objective in their search for truth. But for those who seek to hold to Calvinism instead of Christianity and are determined to do so even if they must pervert every word they find in the scriptures. To them, no amount of explaining can help. Let him that hath ears to hear, HEAR! And such an admonition is wasted upon those that have chosen to be deaf.

Your Christian Friend,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, February 26, 2001

My brothers let us not byte and devour one and other. Simple put we have been called to preach Christ and him crucified, is it not God who gives the increase. When the Lord opens a sinners eyes they will see the truth, those who teach contrary to Gods word, God knows who they are. A true believer is one who no longer lives for the momentary pleasrues of sin but they live to share Jesus with a lost and dieing world be encouraged brothers we serve a mighty God.

-- Anonymous, February 27, 2001

Alex,

Forgive my intrusion. In the original statement you mention the the "Catholic doctrine" is not correct and then above I read two aparently differing opinions of aspects of faith. Of corse I think that many faiths have some truth, even pagan religions have "good" morals toward their own and some others.

How are we to know the "True" faith? And, who are the "True" Christians from whom to learn from? Can all the different denoinations be correct? Which one is?

Creel

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2001

Greetings in the Lord: God works everything according to His purpose, Iam thankful that the Lord has trusted me to answer your question. Glory to God always. Let me first say this Creel, before Jesus was in life my trust was is in everyting but him, I read the bestsellers, self help books; mens writings, as men are men and God is God. These men or books never helped me as they cant heal a heart. By Gods grace I was in my room hurting deeply, as I cryed out to God His Spirit came into my hurting heart and He healed it. I seen through Gods forgiveness why Jesus died. I never read Gods word, I never had a desire to. In that moment in my life the words of Jesus came to life, I am the way the truth and the life. You see creel I dont follow man I follow Jesus Christ. I respect and love man but God is the overseer of my soul and I learn from Him.Are there many opinions, yes, many religions, yes. All these have the power of man not the power of God who alone can a soul soul free, from sin, from hurts. I encourage to seek first the kingdom of God, hold Jesus to his words. The truth shall set you free. Those who know God are bearibg fruit unto him. Read Galation 5 a person who trust in his own knowledge is a sinner trusting in his own righteousness, as Gods word says there is none righteous, no not one. Through faith in Jesus is where eternal knowledge is recieved.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2001

Alex,

Is that you on the Catholic forum?

-- Anonymous, March 01, 2001

Amen brother sreading the Lords word!

-- Anonymous, March 01, 2001

Wonderful!

Someone 'borne from above by the Spirit'.

It's better than the letter of the law, which kills, but this gives life!

-- Anonymous, March 01, 2001

Alex,

Let me for warn you in case you haven't been on the Catholic forum long. As you can see from your "purgatory" post the question was originally questioned in 1999. Many people are very good at making "you" seem like the bad guy, especially when your the outsider. That's what they beilieve and I seriously doubt you can change their minds. As shown even when the theory contradicts what is in the Bible they'll still hold fast to the CCC. Why? I haven't no real reason except that who is in control of this world (2 Cor 4:4).

Just a thought

AKA: MGP

-- Anonymous, March 02, 2001