Heart attack helper time. I went in to work at the ER to help cover for someone who was ill tonight. Supposed to work 6pm -12midnight. About 11:35pm I hear the state police dispatcher report a 14 y/o alone in a house with someone trying to get in the back door. Then they give the address.......Mine! Yikes!!! I hauled butt as fast as I could home. I was going to take Queen Buffnesses van into the shop and have 'em check out the transmission tomorrow. Won't be a big diagnostic problem now. It's toast. Anyway, God was looking out for the boy. He had locked the doors, something we rarely do. The State had a car close and they were there in about 5-10 minutes. The would be house crasher was gone. My son did see someone out the back window & I wonder if they didn't see him also and take off.

I'm still a little shook w/ the "coulda beens". I look at this as a warning for me. We've got 5 dogs around here and none would bite anyone. My son did not have a weapon. Duh! He knows how to handle a weapon and is very proficient and accurate w/ all of the weapons we have. None were easily accessable or ready for immediate use. I had put everything up when the relatives were here recently.

I thought of that all the way home. He knows where I always keep a pistol. Thank God he didn't need it this time. He asked me what happened to it when I got home!

I'm going to be thinking a lot about the security situation in the next few days, motion detectors, a new house dog, etc. If you haven't done so lately, maybe you should too.

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), February 21, 2001

Answers

Gosh John,,what a scary experience,,,I am so glad your son is safe and unharmed,,have you lived there long?***Yes, in this crazy world we live in we are not immune to criminal activity, no matter where we live. I know for myself I have an easy going and trusting attitude and it is hard to believe what people do. But we sure learn, one way or another.***I think your idea of a "new" dog is a great idea. One that is a great companion and excellant watchdog. My favorite is the Doberman. They are loyal, playful and very protective. Even if they are like a pussy cat, their bark can send your heart into your mouth. It would make a would-be "rat-fink" think twice. My dobermans have always been good with kids and would except anyone I indicate is "ok".***It is too bad you can't go to work with peace of mind,,,I know how you feel...but I think your ideas of better security is a definite necessity. ,,hug your son extra, no matter how old he is,,,I still hug my sons spontaneously,,and they are ages 18 and 22. I love them dearly and let them know it. We never know what may happen from day to day***In your line of work I know you are very aware of that..I hope you are feeling a little calmer by now....Take care...

-- Patsy (cozyhollow-gal@care2.com), February 21, 2001.

That is exactly why my doors are always locked and I have weapons readily available.

-- Ardie from WI (a6203@hotmail.com), February 21, 2001.

John I have lived in this part of Indiana all my life things like this do happen once in awhile no matter where you live. Can you image what it would be like if there was a big down turn in jobs.A lot of people who have now would be the same people that would be the have nots. We are the ones that can survive but we will have to be willing to protect what belongs to us. Indiana Country Friend Jack Bunyard God Bless

-- Jack bunyard (bunyard@cnz.com), February 21, 2001.

John, I am so thankful your son is okay! Motion detector lights are an excellent warning system, and most dogs will at least bark if someone they don't know starts to come in the house, but maybe you should get something that's a bit hyper to give the warning.

I live by myself and I have a weapon in every room that is loaded at all times. You never know, and it's better to have that as a deterrent than to not have it at all. Shotguns are actually the best becuase if your surprised and sleepy combined with the adrenalin rush of being awakened suddenly your aim can go way off.

Sorry about your tranny as well, what a drag!

What is that saying..."Trust in God, but lock your car"...something like that. Again, glad your sons okay!

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), February 21, 2001.

So sorry to hear about that story. Put in some HEAVY-DUTY LIGHTS !! When we were building our house, some creeps came and broke into our locked storage trailer and swiped a bazillion tools, and things. Four or five months later they came back and tried to do it again. I had better locks on the trailer, but what I think really scared them from doing much, were several large LIGHTS around the project. Those signs on the doors that say "Protected by Smith & Wesson" are cute and perhaps helpful, but please don't give a young person (son or daughter) access to handguns. There's got to be a better fix. Even shooting someone in your own house is frowned upon by the authorities unless it can be reasonably proved that the perpetrator has backed you into the furthest remote part of the house, and intended to do you bodily harm. (and never shoot him if HE retreats!) Create points of retreat, within your house. Which bedroom doors have the most secure locks? Can you or your child make it to that room quickly? Is there a cellular phone in that room? If a prowler cuts your phone wires, can you still make the call? Is there LOUD NOISE that would frustrate a burglar's intent while he is inside? A dog's constant barking or one of those loud alarm bells going off while he is inside, would make him reconsider. People (including burglars) don't feel IN-CONTROL when they can't hear everything around them. And if a clock radio or TV are all that's missing when you finally do get home, then you made out alright. I'll let you in on a secret. I can drop a person to his knees with a can of WASP FREEZE. You don't always need a gun for every problem, although they can be a great equalizer. Look for alternatives, first, though. It sounds like, if you've got five dogs, and you don't believe any of them would bite an attacker, you at least need one with a bigger bark. After the new lights, I'd start there next. Best wishes for your family.

-- Action Dude (theactiondude@yahoo.com), February 21, 2001.

Well, with the sunshine this morning my anxiety level is back to near normal! I've had these types of things happen before. In town and out in the country both. I think it was Hearing it come over the scanner and running home scared that got me. That helpless feeling.

Patsy, we only recently moved to this place. Frankly, I've just not been my normal paranoid self. A certain amount of paranoia is good for things like this. A Doberman is a good choice or a big German Shepard. I like both. W've already got 5 dogs around here. 3 of ours and 2 that have "adopted" us.

Jack, I was out your way earlier yesterday. I took the Daughter back to school in Greenwood. As often as I go up your way I'm going to have to swing by on a day when I'm not on a schedule.

I will be evaluating options, I like the "weapon in every room" idea Doreen. I'm not sure Queen Buffness will go for it.

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), February 21, 2001.

I think the dobie idea is a good one. Ive never had one but my uncle has. Old doc was scary looking and his bark would make ya jump if ya didnt know better. he was a very easy going dog his only problem was his ears, when they did the job to make his ears pointy it didnt take, and his ears were very sinsitive. My little brother was out side one day and he had a thing about pulling Ol'Docs ears no matter how much we hollerd at him for it. well we heard this God awful screaming and i ran out to see what was going on. Ol'Doc had my little brothers head in his mouth, never broke the skin but was holding him hard enough that James couldnt get loose. as soon as Doc saw me he let loose an walked off. I dont think we ever had to get after james for pulling on his ears agian. Its good to know your child knows how to use a gun. But id still look into other ways to discourage intruders. I myself hope i have it in me to protect my family and what is mine, but I really dont know how id feel about taking another life even if the guy deserved it. Cant believe it would be a good feeling inside. and i think it might take away something from a child. That being said As soon as I think my little one is able she will be shown how to shoot and handle a gun. I dont want ya to think im against guns, I just pray she never has to use one against another person, but i dont want her to get hurt from not having a clue as to how to handle one if the need ever comes up.

-- MikeinKS (mhonk@oz-online.net), February 21, 2001.

What a horrible experience for your son as well as you !!! Middle-of- the-road person that I am, we have dogs and guns, but never had guns in the house when we had kids at home..it was not that we did not trust our children, but I was not comfortable with guns at that time in my life. When we moved out here in the woods, we bought guns and I have learned how to use them and be quite comfortable doing so. I shoot often so that it will be second nature to me in case I ever need to use one in an emergency. We also expanded our dog numbers..we have a Black Lab who looks friendly but he is the most mentally ill Lab I have ever met..hates strangers and will go after them in a minute if we are not at home.We have a 12 year old Corgie/Collie mix whose bark sounds like a Rottweiler(otherwise useless for protection, but well-loved), a 120 pound Kuvasz..who likes to throw herself up against the doors when strangers drive up, and now an 85 pound Black German Shepard who joins the Kuvasz in "welcoming" folks. Our Postal Carrier wrote us a note saying that she will no longer deliver packages to our porch if we are not at home (hee hee hee). We enjoy a terrific reputation in the area as the "Yankees from Pennsylvania with them viscious dawgs". I LOVE IT !!!!! As soon as we get our fence up (hopefully soon), them viscious dawgs will be seen instead of just heard. All of the inmates whom I worked with for years at the max-security prison said that the presence of BIG DOGS in or around a home was the best security system around. Sounds as if you need Kuvasz and Shepherds who take their jobs seriously (or a demented Black lab, LOL) God bless.

-- Lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), February 21, 2001.

Dobermans are good.....pit bulls are better! As long as a pit bull isn't inbreed and is raised right they are superb dogs. When I had mine(before he was stolen...he was that friendly) service people wouldn't even come near the gate, even when I was out in the yard holding the dog. He was the biggest loviest dog I've ever had and I miss him badly. Only time he would hurt anyone was playin with ya....he was so big he didn't know his own strength. I've also found that it is intimidating for someone to have to go through more than one gate. When I have both of my gates shut I just don't have visitors. As long as your son is responsible(which from what you said I gather he is) I'd keep a shotgun loaded where he knew where it was.....I'd go with a shotgun over a pistol. I'll pass along some advice an old sheriff gave to my grandpa one time when he was having trouble with people breaking into the barn. If he's inside shoot him and make sure he's dead....if he manages to get outside after you shoot him drag him back in and if he doesn't have a weapon put one on the body! I know a lot of folks will think that is harsh but I figure if they are trying to get into my home they plan to do me or one of my loved ones harm......if they are willing to take that chance I'm happy to oblige them! I'm so glad your son is ok!

-- Amanda in Mo (aseley@townsqr.com), February 21, 2001.

hay amanda from mo., i guess we must have talked to the same old sheriff in mo. i got the same advice from sheriff herman pierce (now deceased) i would say it is very good advice or sorta of a do unto others thing. like most of you we live in the country in the ozark mountains in mo., and rarely have any problems with neighbors or anyone else for that matter but their are times when i'm alone for peroids of time and you can take it to the bank i have a weapon close at hand and have been taught to use it, and will if i have to. i also have an 87% wolf/pyr dog who will growl and bark if anyone comes on the land uninvited anytime of the day or night. i am an artist and have a studio on the back of our property when i get to drawing or weaving late at night you can bet she is right their in my studio with me, one never knows.

john now that your heart has gotten back to normal speed maybe this incident can be turned into a learning experience not only for you but all of us. do what you have to do to keep you and yours safe we only go around once in this life so don't let anyone take that away from you.

have a great day everyone. sally

-- sally stanton (mallardhen67@hotmail.com), February 21, 2001.

John, so glad you had a good outcome from this experience. I agree with lights, motion detectors to turn on lights and let you know of the approach of visitors and self defense weapons, be they Smith and Wesson or four legged but I would also strongly encourage the women who can to take a self defense class designed for women. There are times when you just can't have dog or gun with you, the dog could be shot and the weapon taken from you but a physical skill can not. I'm not talking about the choreographed stuff, karate, etc., but a real honest to goodness SELF DEFENSE class. I was lucky enough to take such a course about 12 years ago and it has helped my confidence level markedly. The thing is that most attackers will intimidate their victim verbally before the physical attack starts. The class I took used the typical threats, complete with words you would never use in front of your grandma and an "attacker" dressed in roughly 40# of protective gear so that my classmates and I could respond with full force. Different scenarios were used so that we had the body memory and didn't have to think about our responses. Anyone interested in more information about the class is welcome to email me directly and I'll try you find one in your area.

About the dogs and weapons. I sleep with a loaded shotgun by my bed. We have 3 Pyrs, two females with the stock and a male in the yard. He has his human friends and he has those whom I do not even offer to allow to enter the yard. We put a large box outside the fence--we are back off the road and the box is near the house--with the words PACKAGE DELIVERY on it so that people don't have to enter the yard. We have a part pit bull in the house but my real protector was my German shepherd who died last fall of kidney disease a week after his 10th birthday. He never let me out of his sight if he could help it and he was a godsend when my husband was away for any reason. He lay on the floor on my side of the bed until I went to sleep then he moved to the doorway of the bedroom to guard us the rest of the night. He didn't have to bark because he had a very wolfish predatory look about him that sent anyone who didn't know him backing away. Boy, do I miss that dog.

-- marilyn (rainbow@ktis.net), February 21, 2001.

Some of the things I read on this site make me quite uneasy. There have been numerous references to people in the USA sleeping with guns by the bed, guns in their cars, guns in restaurants etc etc, not to mention the attack animals that others deem necessary. Recent travels have taken me to countries that are officially (according the US government) too dangerous for US citizens to visit yet I have never felt the need there to do anything more than lock the hotel door.

I am not suggesting that my country is free of violence, in fact it is quite a violent environment in some places. My wife and I have a simple plan, if anyone tries to break into our house we leave by an upstairs window, across the garage roof and down into the neighbours garden.

So am I just naive or what?

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), February 21, 2001.

John,

Buy a shotgun. Teach your son to load and shoot. Practice with him untill you both are secure. All the concern over shooting another person will not help you if you come home too late and find him dead.

Teach him to respect life, but not at the expense of giving his own. I lived in a house with guns all my life. They were never hidden, I knew where they were. I also knew what they would do. Teaching a child to respect a weapon is a much safer alternative than hiding it. Something hidden will always be found. Something accepted as normal will never be questioned.

I would hate for my child to have to shoot someone. I would hate even more trying to live with myself if I did not teach them self-protection

-- Mona in OK (jascamp@ipa.net), February 21, 2001.

John, something is wronge here. 5 dogs and not one barked at a stranger in there yard? This sounds to me like who ever entered your yard was known by the dogs?

-- kathy h (ckhart55@earthlink.net), February 21, 2001.

Thanks one and all for sharing. One of the reasons I posted this incedent was to help others who, like myself, may have become a bit complacent.

I went and priced some motion detectors and lights today. Cheap really. The front of the house is very well lit(too well) from the neighbors "street light" security light. I think finishing the fencing would be a good thing too. Practical for the stock I plan on getting and giving the dogs a boundry to understand. Good fences make good neighbors, right?

I believe the reason the outside dogs didn't make more of a ruckus is they may be familiar with whoever it was. 2 of the mutts that hang out here came from homes nearby in which some questionable types reside. I was given a tip today that maybe there was one of the neighbors involved. Running off the neighbors dogs and replacement w/ a dog of our own seems to be a good idea.

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), February 21, 2001.

Although it was touched on earlier, I think that one of the best things I ever heard about keeping kids safe when they are home alone is a "safe" room. This is a room with an exit window, a safety "rope"-type ladder, flashlights, cellphone (you can get the 911 only type that cost next to nothing and don't run up any charges) permanently plugged into its chargerin the same room. Also blankets, water, and other things that they would need in case of flood or sever weather like a tornado. Take off the door to this room and replace it with a metal dor that is fire and impact resistant (they can be bought with very nice decorative aspects). This way, no matter what, your kid can get to a place that he/she feels safe, cn call for help from and can (if necessary) escape from. Be sure that there is somewhere to hid from tornado (closet, etc) and do your best pre-emptive landscaping, etc, to make this room the least likely point of entry.

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), February 21, 2001.

John, you must have had such a sick feeling when hearing your address. Just thought I'd remind everyone that weapons can usually be found anywhere. Heaven forbid should someone get in, but if they do...fistful of pepper in the face? Shot of hairspray? leave in conditioner? Baking powder? Maybe someone could pick these things apart, but if they get in, at least it gives some time for YOU to get away? What do you think?

-- Rheba (rbeall@etown.net), February 21, 2001.

John Hill, Your E&E plans are good. If your comfortable w/ that good. My boy went into the modified "Safe room" idea Soni mentioned. He had the cordless phone and retreated into a big walk in closet. He stayed there till the Cops came. He showed me where he was at. You'd a loved it, in the clothes, up on a box so you couldn't see his feet. You would really have to be looking to have found him.

We've discussed "What if" plans before and hiding was one we talked about. His plan was to hide w/ a weapon though as a last resort.

On the dog situation. Of our 2 indoor dogs, 1 is a little bitty thing, old and deaf. The other is younger and stupid and never met anyone she didn't love. 2 of the 3 outdoor dogs are the ones mentioned before, maybe belong to the creeps. The 3rd came w/ the house and barks at the other dogs and not much else.

-- John (jsmengel@hotmail.com), February 21, 2001.

Nothing worse than that 'scared' feeling in the pit of your stomach, glad all was okay John. As for me, I have those stupid-'I shoot first, ask questions later..' "If your not dead yet....I'll call an ambulance for you.." signs on the edges of the woods. At the top of the long drive, is a bow practice target. In large black letters on the back it says "PRACTICE RANGE" Between the dog and all of that, you'd have to be an idiot to come on to my property! My brother in law said it best "Gees, Kath-you can't even hit a dart board, never mind a 5ft target, from over there!!" He calls before visting. Enough said.

-- Kathy (catfish201@hotmail.com), February 21, 2001.

One more pitch for a Kuvasz...they do NOT care how many times someone has come to your house to visit..they do NOT care how many times a person who visits has rubbed their belly or given them raw meat treats.....if the person does not live in the house, the Kuvasz will NOT let them near it if you are not at home to tell them it is OK..this is inbred and non-negotiable. The only time this can be a drawback is if I am lying on the floor having my first heart attack, the police would probably have to shoot my poor Kuvasz before they could come onto the property safely....My cholesterol is fine, so I figure she's safe LOL...God bless.

-- Lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), February 21, 2001.

You all make me afraid to follow my dreams!! Maybe it isn't safe out there where I want to go. I have lived here for nine and 1/2 years and only locked the doors for a year after I was separatd from my husband (to keep him out at night-HE scared me, alot). Yes, I have always had dogs, big ones that bark and now a little one that barks more to add to the mix-until you come in the yard, then they want to be petted and loved. NO I do not have a gun and hope to never wish that I did. I do plan (sort of) to get one when the time comes to get on with my larger dream-but as a livestock protector. My children's friends have always been welcome here, even when no one is home-we've only had problems with one thief (the girls' waitressing tips in a jar on the dresser) and we knew who it was (friend on drugs no longer welcome, hasn't come back.) Maybe because I live in a small town neighborhood?? Maybe because I know all my neighbors?? Maybe because I trust to much?? I don't know. Maybe because everyone knows I keep geese and don't realize I penned them up a few months ago?? Please, be reasonable with your precieved threats so you can enjoy life. I hate to see people in fear. I do know how I would feel if my child was threatened-been there, done that, locked him out. Peace to you all, betty

-- betty modin (betty_m9@yahoo.com), February 22, 2001.

Hi betty...I can only speak for myself, but I definetly do not live in fear out here in the boonies, because I have my dogs and my guns. There are real threats when you are the only house on the road,and not to be aware of them can make a person a victim. When I was a teenager in the city we did not lock our doors either..then about 1966 or so, all of that changed dramatically. I would much rather feel safe than worry about every car that comes along. Two weeks ago on a lovely Sunday morning, three armed men robbed our local two-bit tiny convenience store..they got $75 after terrorizing the clerk. Nowdays it does not seem to matter where you live, the loonies are out there too. By having safeguards, I am not the least troubled, and enjoy my life tremendously. Our lifestyle has always been that absolutely nobody is welcomed in our home when we are not there. Folks who drop by leave a note on the door. I am not saying you are wrong the way you have chosen to do things, just clarifying that I sure don't live in fear, and that there are more than just "perceived" threats regardless of where you live...God bless.

-- Lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), February 22, 2001.

John Hill, and others who are kinda frightened of guns, it isn't like there are weapons and cluster bombs hanging from my ceiling and rounds lying all over the place!! I have a three room place and a weapon that you can't see at a glance in every room. I sleep like I am dead, people have literally come in and moved furniture from the room I was sleeping in and I didn't wake up, I have dogs to wake me, but you have to be realistic. If someone breaks into my home, I am not going to ask them to wait for me to bake them a cake so that they feel nice and comfortable before they carry on with whatever illegal, amoral, thing they broke into my home to do. One time I have used a gun to perhaps save my life, and I will not hesitate to do so again. I never had to shoot anyone or shoot at anyone, and I pray that I never need to do so. If you don't feel comfortable with guns, then you shouldn't have one. Whatever works for you is fine. I'd rather have them and not need them than not have them and need them. I think it's the best homeowner policy going, and a God given right to protect yourself and yours. Blessings to all of you, and I hope no one experiences a break in, it is awfully scary and keeps you awake at night for a long time after your space has been violated, and burglars motives are always questionable.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), February 22, 2001.

John Glad everything turned out ok. We have many outside lights the twist I put them on remotes. My wif or I can turn on the building lights or the one on the barn and front spot lights from any room in the house. We figured that if someone was stupid enough to come in the yard they wouldn't know if we were in the house or out and about. Plus theres no way they could be sure that they weren't more than us here.

Inside dog toy miniture. Ankel biter and good barker. Outdoors a minn- pinn and he'll bark at everyone. Just got a mutt that does not trust easy but I believe he'll become a good guard dog.

Guns are Tools. Just as you would not have a child to operate a bandsaw without training same goes for guns.

If you have "any" trustworthy neighbors install a High decible siren with a panic button.

I like dogs as much as anyone but if the 2 strays aren't helping their teaching your dogs bad habits. If it were here they'd be on the Swap Shop or Pound bound.

My best friend has a motto "The only gun that saves you is the one on you when you need it" It held up for him instead of being dead he's just blind in one eye. Three perps broke in and ED had less than 1 minute to respond. He is very thankful to be alive and glad of his S&W 38.

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), February 22, 2001.

I agree with Doreen. If you aren't comfortable with guns then you shouldn't have them. Find other ways to protect yourself. When I drove a big rig cross country I couldn't carry a gun so I did what a lot of truckers did......I carried a wicked tire thumper and the biggest heaviest mag light I could get my hands on. In the small confines of a truck these would have been sufficient.

I'd like to pass on a concern that a local sheriff brought up to me. My ex hubby is a gunsmith so I was around guns and law enforcement officers all the time. The sheriff told me he hated to see a woman buy a gun. Of course this ruffled all my feathers and I asked him why! He said if you asked most women who had guns for protection what they would do if they had to defend themselves with it most of them would say they would aim to wound their attacker....not shoot to kill. It seems most women just couldn't stand the thought of killing someone. He said that this frame of mind would do one of two things....get them killed or get the crook in possession of their gun (and then possibly raped). I thought about this for a while and realised he was entirely correct. This fellow knew me pretty good and I asked him if me having a gun made him nervous. He laughed and said only if he didn't announce himself before coming up to my door after dark! I was raised around guns and I've been able to shoot a gun since I was about 8 or 9. I'm an excellent shot(almost always shoot a 2 inch square pattern)....if you aren't, either practice till you are competent with a gun or find your best alternative. I don't live in fear at all. Just because a person has guns and is prepared to use them doesn't mean that they live like a commando. My guns get far more use here on the farm in the form of varmint control.

-- Amanda in Mo (aseley@townsqr.com), February 22, 2001.

Well Doreen I would not say I am exactly afraid of guns, somewhere is my old uniform tunic with the marksmans' insignia. But I do know I am afraid of a gun in the hands of a frightened person.

Fortunately it is very unlikely that anyone will break into my home and it is almost certain that (in this country) they will not be carrying a gun. I would hate to see an arms race between homeowners and scroats.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), February 22, 2001.

Thankfully, it all turned out OK... Some good advice out there already too. We live in the city limits, and in a lot of ways our little town is quiet, yet with the interstate so close we get a lot of folks just "passin' thru" so to speak. I've had the sherrif capture an escaped convict in front of my house 2 years ago, and I let the dogs loose one night just last week and they chased someone out of my front yard.

We have motion sensors on the front of the house, a street lamp type security light out back, a true outdoor dog who's part wolf and has tried to eat several strangers. Plus we have two "ankle biters" we keep inside at night, the wife takes in the car, etc. who are just as viscious if not more so than the big dog. Plus we keep loaded weapons handy, and am teaching my oldest boy gun safety. I'm adding 2 more motion activated lights on the "inbetween" spots the front lights and the rear security lights miss. And I'm also in the process of getting everything that I need to finishing fencing in the yard. 5 foot high welded wire around the house with the dogs and the boys in it, and 4 foot high barbed wire everywhere else, with maybe a hot strand or two thrown in for good measure.

-- Eric in TN (eric_m_stone@yahoo.com), February 22, 2001.

To John in S.IN; It sure sounds like you have a smart kid! Would you tell him I said so? Only substitute the words "young man" for "kid." ;-) And thank God he's okay!!!

To Everyone in general; We have big dogs and guns. We have three lab mixes ~ a one-year-old 70 lb. male, 80lb. female and a 108 lb. big boy ~ 250+ lbs. of muscle and fangs! LOL! They live in the house with us, all three. I find that doing that makes them SO much more protective ~ they are pack animals and if you make any dog really feel like you are their "pack" and the house is their "den", they will most likely be downright vicious in protecting you and your house. Teaching them "house manners" isn't all that hard, pretty simple actually (John or anyone, feel free to e-mail me if you'd like some tips on that). Teaching them just takes a bit of patience, but the reward is not only serious protectors, but an "advance warning system" that will give you plenty of time to hide in the closet or grab the gun. It won't matter who it is outside ~ even if the dog knows the person they wouldn't be able to see that it's a "friend", so would still throw a fit!

"All the concern over shooting another person will not help you if you come home too late and find him dead. Teach him to respect life, but not at the expense of giving his own. ... Teaching a child to respect a weapon is a much safer alternative than hiding it. Something hidden will always be found. Something accepted as normal will never be questioned. I would hate for my child to have to shoot someone. I would hate even more trying to live with myself if I did not teach them self-protection." Amen, Mona! Truer words were never spoken. Well said!

While I don't think I would ever shoot someone if they were just trying to steal my TV, I do think that I could and would kill someone if they were trying to do me or any member of my family harm. I don't think but KNOW that my husband would. Of course, I still wouldn't exactly enjoy it. Well, maybe a little! (*kidding*). Seriously, I try my best to avoid putting myself or my husband in that position.

When the "Texas Seven" were on the loose recently, we heard that one of them (Donald Newberry) had family in the area and might come this way, bringing his buds in tow. Hubby said, "We need to stop leaving the keys in the cars, keep the dogs outside and lock the doors!" to which I replied, "Why?! So they can kill the dogs outside where they'll have a better shot at them, then break into the house to get the keys and kill us in the process?!" We ended up keeping the dogs in the house, leaving the keys in the cars and locking the doors. I'd MUCH rather them just take the cars and get the hell out of here.

-- Wingnut (wingnut@moment.net), February 22, 2001.

Wingnut has a good idea, if you keep the two inside at night they wont smell there old owner as easy and will be much more likly to bark.

-- kathy h (ckhart55@earthlink.net), February 22, 2001.

John Hill,You pegged it in one.The idea of a gun in the hands of a frightened person scares you.It scares burglars too.There is nothing that freezes the blood quite like hearing the slide on a shotgun rack in the middle of the night.Here in the states (with the exception of 2or3)we have no obligation to retreat.If a nit wit chooses to break into your home,you are justified in killing him.Period.Ultimatly it is up to individual sense of morality.If I don't see an immediate threat from a person in my home and I figure he does not have accomplaces laying in ambush,I would be inclined to hold him for the police.If on the other hand I can't assess my degree of safty I'm going to shoot him dead and look for the next target.In my situation police are at least 45 minutes away,and recent court rulings have stated that they have NO OBLIGATION to protect me or to even respond to my call for help.Regardless of all B.S. and rhetoric, people that are armed are safer.First because it gives them options and second the threat of breaking into a home that is occupied by someone that might have a gun is too great a risk for most criminals. I carry a gun every day John.I have done so for the last ten years on only one occasion did I ever draw it on a person.Some young toughs started an altercation at a petrol pump and came at me with baseball bats.I pulled my .45 and admonished them for being so silly as to bring bats to a gun fight.I did not shoot any one.They got the message and left in a hurry.If I did not save my life at that instant I certainly saved myself from a long stay in hospital.I also hope that my would be attackers learned that there could be lethal consequenses to being thugs.Often they don't figure that out until they beat someone to death and go to jail or the chair.(the gun that will save your life is the one you have on you)As for americans being safe abroad it is tied to US foreign policy.You as an english speaking person of european descent might be quite safe where as a yank in the same place makes a nice political target.Americans as a whole are ignorant and unaware of what our government is up to abroad as well as what american businesses are getting up to.I don't know how to fix it or change it.We started out with a great political system but the politicians figured out they just need to distract us with bread and circuses.Ask most americans and they will tell you they live in a democracy.In fact it is a constitutional republic.Any way that is enough of that tar-baby.John it is always nice to read your perspective from the antipodes.You don't bait people or try to push a political agenda.Thank you and keep up the dialog. Greg

-- Greg (gsmith@tricountyi.net), February 23, 2001.

Greg, thanks for the comments but there is really nothing in this house that is worth a hair of my wife's head ('cept maybe my toy train collection, he he he) so if the bad guys come calling we are out the back way.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), February 23, 2001.

There is lots of good sound advice here, but please pardon me Miss Amanda, I must strongly beg to differ. Do not ever drag a shot criminal back into your dwelling. If "it" makes it outside, let "it" go. The threat is stopped and you are normally not justified in using deadly force unless the intruder decides to carry on with the fight. Dragging a body in the house after the fact is going to make you look like a criminal real fast. Cops have a simple spray paint like chemical that's called Luminal. It shows blood spatter, trails etc. with a black light background. It works for a long time after a crime and you can count on it being used after a homicide (both justified and not). One rule that I go by is there are no such things as a fair gun fight. Always cheat and always win, but make damn sure you can articulate how you were in the right or you will be the one getting locked up.

-- roscoe rotten (rkphipps@simflex.com), February 23, 2001.

I had my third break in at my farm a few years ago while I was at work. When I got home, the front door was smashed open and the back door was left open. I called 911 who sent a sheriff's deputy out. He arrived 45 minutes later, told me, as he wrote up the report for the stolen articles, that the burglar would probably never be caught. He also told me to get a gun, keep it loaded, and shoot first and answer questions later if someone tried to break in again. I responded in the usual, well I will end up going to jail if I shoot someone routine. To my surprise he said, not if there's no one left to dispute your story. Shoot to kill, and make sure the burglar is inside. If the burglar gets outside, drag 'em back in. This came from a long time deputy who had worked two of the three break-ins. Well I ended up getting two very large dogs, a pyr and a rottie to add to the rat terrier ankle biter and basset who is too old to do anything. I also have a rifle and keep it loaded and yes, I do know how to shoot. I feel safer with the gun here than without as I live way off the road, don't have neighbor's who'd give a hoot in hell whether I was attacked or not, and the cops are always 45 minutes away. I think that if someone comes deliberately on my property, ignoring all the posted signs, gets past the dogs, and breaks in my house, that I would be better off having protection than offering them tea. And why should I run? It's MY house. Sorry - just had to get that off my chest. I don't advocate gun use and most of my friends and relatives don't even know I have a gun - but I know I have one and that is more important. We have a huge security light, but in the case of my break-ins, they were done twice during the day and once at night. I am so glad that your son is safe and you are re-evaluating your security. Everyone should do that on an annual basis as I think we all get a little too complascent with the status quo. After all, the nasties are constantly evaluating the hows, whens and wheres of their trade - it is up to us to thwart them. Sorry this is so long, y'all have a nice weekend.

-- Cindy (colawson@mindspring.com), February 23, 2001.

Hi again Y'all. Been busy and on the go the last 2 days. Just finished reading the latest here. You all have interesting and valuble advice. I think this has been a good thing in that it has focused us on something maybe we need to evaluate.

Thanks also for the compliments for my son. He truly is a special kid. Very mature and very intelligent. He's a good kid that I can be proud of anytime. I was terrified something could happen to him the other night. Yes, I told him that a bunch. To much for a 14 y/o. He was getting tired of me hugging him. Thanks also for all of the kind words and concern shown.

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), February 23, 2001.

John, You have already gotten so many great replies, I hesitated to leave this post; but just wanted to make a couple more suggestions. One is that when anyone is alone in a house, many would-be burglers will not even bother if they are sure there is someone home - lights on, Tv, music, etc. Another is that some insurance companies are really weird about certain breeds of dogs. One breed that is certainly protective that they don't raise eyebrows about (to my knowledge) is the good-ole Lassie-type collie. I owned mine for about nine years before I gave him up to my ex. But Sinbad was so cool. He was not vicious by any means; but always sounded an alarm if anyone was around and was so protective of me. Once a friend of ours that had been over many times stepped quickly to me and grabbed at me to illustrate a story and Sinbad (who was asleep it seemed) was in midair launched at Joe's throat when my ex yelled "Down" just in time. The dog dropped at our feet, still snarling. Another time, Sinbad and his young dumb(but huge -last time I weighed him he was over 100 lbs) son were in our living room and Viking very quietly growled at me (I think I stepped on his foot). Sinbad whipped his butt all over the living room. It was amazing to me. But anyway, I don't know maybe alot of herding dogs have a natural protectiveness; but I think it is particularly strong in well-bred collies and good collie crosses. Cynthia

-- Cynthia Speer (farmsteader@gvtel.com), February 23, 2001.

After reading this, I hadda kick in.

First, find out the laws on self-defense in your state, not old woman's tales. The advice about dragging them back in is bad. The cops can figure out if you are lying to them about the location of shooting, and if it is righteous (legal) self-defense, why the need to drag them back? This merely casts doubt on the rest of your statements.

2nd. Recently read a heartbreaking story of a rural California family, 4 kids at home, oldest 14 yr old girl who knows how to use family guns. Parents not home and nutcase with pitchfork breaks in, but guns are all locked up. Nutcase stabs all 4 kids, 2 die before neighbor gets there. So, mandatory gun lockup laws kills 2 innocent kids. Bet that won't be on the 6:00 news. MY philosophy? Better tried by 12 than my kids carried by 6.

Be safe. -Guy-

-- Guy Winton (guyiii@home.com), February 23, 2001.

My philosophy? Better to talk to the insurance company than the police's homicide section. Have an escape plan which will be cheaper than a gun and will also come if useful if you have a fire.

I know it must be exciting to fantacise about getting the excuse to drill some bozo, but if you don't mind I will pass on that one of life's little experiences.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), February 24, 2001.

John Hill,We have a plethora of Johns on this thread and I want to make sure I address The right one.I feel almost as though I need to take the role of apologist and explain why and where people are coming from when we speak so blithley of lethal force.It will be a little long and I hope not too disjointed so I hope folks will bear with me.There has been a little macho chest thumping going on but it is not all Walter Mitty fantasy or blood thirst.The attitude has become necessary in modern day America.There are real monsters out there and the goblins look like every body else.Here in the states we have more automobiles than people and are a very mobile society.Even the poor own cars.That mobility has brought on a certain ammount of anonymity as well as insularity.We no longer know our neighbors.Folks come and go and no one takes much notice of them passing.This is a real advantage to folks that are evil.The can safely go on a rampage and the only people likely to notice them doing it are the victims.You see John there is a flaw in the escape over the garden gate theory.Sometimes the target is not your possesions but YOU.What happens when you can't go out the window because you have a broken leg or your wife is too ill from the flu to move?Two examples of what I am talking about occured within 10 miles of my home.In the first case two men went to a Mennonite family's house specifically to sexualy assualt a 4 and a 6 year old girl.They knew that for religious reasons the family would be unarmed.They broke in with a hammer and a knife and raped the little girls repeatedly,demanded money and finally left taking the family's van and kidnapping one of the girls taking turns at driving and raping her.These men were known to the victims father who was a prison minister.These goons were just released from prison three days previously to the attack after serving sentences for sexual assult.They did not care that they were known ,they did not care that they would be caught.The family will bear the scars for life.The second case happened not far from me as well.A young man visiting a girl he met on the inter-net decided it was time for him to go home so he took up a baseball bat, went next door to the young ladies neighbor who was getting in his vehical to go to work and beat him to death before stealing his truck and driving back home.He could have just bonked the man on the head and took his keys or just asked for them instead he murdered him.John we no longer have the luxury of running away.Most of the folks posting here live on rural properties and are considered easy pickings by city criminals that are highly mobile.We have no protection other than what we provide ourselves.Sure the police come.Sometimes within the hour of a report.Sometimes the next day if they get around to it.We don't have the luxury to assume that the man or men breaking through the door just want our tv set and will leave when they get it.Sometimes they take what they want and kill you just for shits and giggles.Sometimes the only thing they want is your life.Sadly if you merely injure rather kill one of these freaks of nature there is a lawyer willing to file a lawsuit on his behalf because he can no longer make his trade as a thief and murderer.(we have more lawyers per capita than any other country too)In fact if you aren't home and HE hurts himself the bastard still might sue you!That is why you have otherwise sane kind hearted people talking about killing rather restraining someone that breaks into their house.We just are no longer willing to take chances.Damn!just fell off the soap box.PS. I did not write this to get stuck into you John,rather by way of illustration and explanation.I understand that you have a different situation in New Zealand. AS out of place as it may seem... peace to all. Greg Smith

-- Greg (gsmith@tricountyi.net), February 24, 2001.

Greg, please understand I am not suggesting NZ is any safer than any other place on earth as far as personal violence is concerned.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), February 24, 2001.

John,I was in no way being sarcastic.NZ probably IS safer than many parts of the states right now because of cultural differences.Mad dogs do pop up every where.I lived in Oz and ran into a number of Kiwis as well.I think on the whole criminals have not "gone over the edge" there.When I spoke of your situation being different I was refering to the fact that most commonwealth countries have been beating the drum that "personal protection is no longer a valid reason to own a firearm".It's too bad because I think this will eventually bite you in the arse.From my cultural perspective I can't think of a more compelling reason to own one.I think in your situation there would be more uproar over the fact that you blasted someone with grandfater's Purdey rather than the fact that they had been trying to do you bodily harm.So it goes....I was just trying to address why we as rural(or urban) people sleep with a shotgun by the bed or a pistol on the night stand.We aren't playing Rambo.The threat is statistically small but still very real.Not to mention that there are a lot of critters over here big enough to eat people and sometimes do.I am big believer in the food chain.I would just prefer to remain at the top when dealing with predators,both the two legged and the four legged.Please don't feel that you were being picked on.I certainly have seen nothing that you post here that indicates you deserve it.And for John in Indiana I didn't comment before even though this is your thread.I will now.You should be proud of your son he was brave and used his head.I hope you and all your families are safe and well. greg

-- Greg (gsmith@tricountyi.net), February 24, 2001.

Greg, I'm enjoying your interchabge w/ John H. Thanks for the kind words about the boy. BTW, this isn't my thread, it's ours collectively. All of us who frequent this site should be able to share in what goes on.

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), February 24, 2001.

It truly is a sad commentary that living in rural America is still part Norman Rockwell, yet also some Truman Capote thrown in. When I lived in the city, I read "In Cold Blood" for a college book report and vowed I would never, ever live in the country! Now, I listen to my 74 year old mother who lives in a suburb of Boston tell me how she has all these deadbolts on every door, and how they had the glass patio door removed for "safety", and how she never goes out after dark for anything, etc. etc. etc. Yet when I suggested to her that she was welcomed to live here, she was horrified!!! The thing that frightens her the most is that there are no neighbors close by, and that it takes the sheriff awhile to get here..she says it's "spooky".I told her we could all sit out on the screened in porch and sip lemonade this Summer, and she replied "OUTSIDE ! Where people can SEE you if they drive by"???? sigh.....our guns and dogs make no impression on her. I guess the moral to this story is the beauty and serenity and peace of homesteading in the country outweighs the sadness I feel for the NEED to provide self-protection. Glad I'm here, sorry I ever read anything by Truman Capote, and yeah, glad I have my guns and my dogs..God bless.

-- Lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), February 24, 2001.

I finally decided to get serious about home security. There was much excitement when a large package arrived from my friends in Pyongyang, I had been waiting months for these and now I can begin to feel much more relaxed about our personal safety. The post boy got a bit excited and asked if he could have the North Korean stamps, of course I told him to 'F*&k Off' in no uncertain terms and he gave me a bit of lip in return. That was when Dinah, (our faithful Argentinos/Pit Bull/Rotti/Chahuahua cross) put a crutch hold on him. The surgeon's report says he will be the last of his line which may be just as well as my niece told me he once put his hand on her knee in class. He was obviously a latent rapist and society is better off without that sort of low life breeding.

I was eager to get to grips with these new toys but "Work first, play later" is my motto so I must mow the lawn first. I have a 'hover mower' of the type that floats on a cusion of air and does not put any pressure on the ground and this particular one has been further modified by me for radio control, I just about have the hang of it now and can do both the front and back lawns without leaving my chair and only minor colateral damage to the rose and agapantha beds.

One of the advantages of regular international travel is the opportunities it gives for cultural exchange and the acquisition of interesting souvenirs. Take Pakistan for example, there is a village in the North West Frontier Province where they will hand make just about any type of firearm you may have a hankering after. I never bought any complete guns from there but I did manage to have them make a few vital spares for the Tupolev, remote controlled, mid-upper gun turret that I had bartered a bag of wheat for in Afghanistan. Being Ruskie made it may not be quite up to the engineering standard of what might be available in the US but it was the best I could get as unfortunately the Afghans did not have any Gattling or other US stuff except some rather battered parts from Tomahawk missiles. The ex-Tupolev turret has four fairly heavy calibre machine canon with electric feed for the 2000 or so rounds I managed to acquire by swapping my fake, Bangkok made, Rolex watch. Fortunately I was travelling on a US airline so I was able to stuff the whole package in the overhead locker.

When I got home I mounted the contraption on the top of the barn where it has a clear field of fire covering our driveway and much of the neighbourhood. The remote control is just beside my TV watching chair. So far I am still waiting to fire this baby in anger though I live in hope. I did test it once when I squirted a short burst into an old Ford that had been parked all night in our street. Heck how was I to know there were two kids snogging inside? Seems like they were getting ready for some serious fornication, I just tell myself I did them a favour by sending them off to the promised land before they could do anything that would have destined their souls to the fires of eternal damnation. Mind you the police had some serious questions to ask and even when I pointed out the kids weren't from this side of town and obviously up to no good they still were not satisified. My case will come up for hearing next month but I am OK, I checked the city archives and it is clear a surveyor's error in 1876 allowed the road to built within the boundary of what is now my property. Not only will I escape the chair but I should be able to claim a bit of back rent from the city for the road too.

So back to my North Korean toys, I now have 48 undetectable anti-personal landmines. These are only about the size of an apple, made completly of non-metalic materials and have a life in the ground of 30 plus years. Any intruders that come on to the property with rape, robbery or battery on their mind or even to read the electricity meter will be in for a suprise, these babies don't kill, that would be way to kind, they just blow the legs off so the naughty fellows can't crawl away before you can deal to them. Something to remember when placing landmines around the house is that if you put them in the lawn mowing of said lawn can be problematic and that is why I have the hover mower.

It is OK to lay mines in your gravel drive and you will be suprised just how many uninvited vehicles you can take out this way although I did not intend my brother-in-law's pickup to land on the club house at the golf course. I told my sister he was a looser when she married him but would she be told? Nah! He knew full well where the 30kg anti-tank mines I got from Iran were placed but after we had been drinking beer all one Sunday afternoon I guess he just plumb forgot. You should hear the bang when one of those mothers go off! And I don't see much of my sister either nowadays.

My neighbour Bruce is a nice enough sort of guy, a few sandwiches short of a picnic if you know what I mean but otherwise OK. He came over and asked if he could borrow something from my garage, I told him to go ahead although knowing Bruce I was careful to remind him of the Sarin gas canister wired to the beer fridge, no problems though as I heard the garage door close a few minutes later. It transpired that Bruce had been having trouble with the morning paper boy tossing his paper onto the porch roof and next day Bruce was waiting for him. The kid did it again and Bruce gave him fair warning but the brat just sneered and cycled away. Bruce fired form the shoulder but the sights must have been out as he completely missed the bike and instead the Stinger glanced off the tarmac and smacked the roof of the gas station down the road before plunging into the orphanage on Orange Grove. Being waifs and orphans there weren't too many people to make a fuss and as the lawyer pointed out at Bruce's trial most of the petty crime in the area came from graduates of that organisation and Bruce was fully justified in taking out the orphanage under the internationally recognised principle of pre-emptive strikes. We never told the authorities about the paper boy and he was keeping a real low profile. Meanwhile I am down one Stinger and I don't expect to be back in Bosnia to pick up another for some time.

But at last the mines are laid and the minefield charts drawn up. There are plenty of warning signs up too and anyone who steps on one of my babies has only himself to blame. Too bad if they can't read Urdu. I have been trying to show my wife how to read the charts but she just can't get the hang of it all and has taken to staying in bed all day with the duvet over her head. Maybe that is the best place for her as just yesterday while she was trying to tune in to 'Days of Our Lives' she wasted 350 rounds of Russian armour piercing on a passing milk float, thank God it wasn't at night or she might have got the honey cart.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), February 25, 2001.

John,I knew you were a bright well rounded fellow from other posts on this board.I had no idea you could be this funny!I needed a good laugh.Thank you. Good on yer kiwi!!

-- greg (gsmith@tricountyi.net), February 25, 2001.

I forgot to ask you in the previous post John.Do you think you can get me a good deal on a Czechoslovakian flame thrower?I find the Chinese made units to be quite inferior and of course I don't want to support Godless commies and slave labor.

-- greg (gsmith@tricountyi.net), February 25, 2001.

Sorry Greg I am right out of flame throwers but I do have most of the parts for a 'Davey Crockett, nuclear field mortar'

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), February 25, 2001.

Hi Greg, Bruce's brother Cyril just called by and I told him of your problem. Cyril is the Bee Emm Dubyah dealer up in Snobbitsville, he has a honey of a set up at his place, I have seen it, from a safe distance of course. He likes the German stuff even though the WWII gear is getting pretty old he still swears by it. Anyway he has a flame thrower as fitted to the Panzers, it takes 250litres (which I guess is about 80 or 100 gallons) of flamable stuff, you can't get the original now but he swears Napalm works great. He has it at his car yard if you want to take a look see. He is looking for Claymores to cover his chicken run, I gave him your name as a possible and suggested you might be interested in the two belts of depleted uranium rounds he got from his boy who services the A-10s, I trust that's ok.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), February 25, 2001.

O.K. John, You win!Just one question and I'll let you get in the last word. Is it true a sheep can hear a zipper from 20 meters?

-- greg (gsmith@tricountyi.net), February 25, 2001.

You are not australian are you Greg?

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), February 26, 2001.

Thank you John, for your BRILLIANT post!! I am still wiping the tears from my eyes!! You are one funny writer!

I was just yesterday considering posting something on this thread, contributing my opinion that the gun-lovers club on this forum is not representative of the American public, but then nothin much here is. The opinion Greg expressed that an attitude of fear and paranoia is "NECESSARY" even, is silly to me, but I see no need to go there; we all believe what we will, and they all believe they are in constant danger, so in fact they ever shall be. I choose to create a different kind of energy around me and mine, and have consequently never faced violence my whole life. Life doesnt HAPPEN to us, we make it happen, all of it, but that is beyond where most people are comfortable going, even those who loudly proclaim personal responsibilty as a sacred attribute.

Anyway, thank you John for your creative way of expressing yourself; humor often helps deliver a gentle message.

Blessings,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), February 26, 2001.

Thanks Earthmama, did you see the Star Wars movies? With your attitude I bet you could walk into that 'Bar at the end of the Universe' and come out unscathed!

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), February 26, 2001.

Earthmama,Perhaps the son of the origional poster was not sending out enough "happy cosmic rays" maybe the guy breaking into his house just needed a hug.There is nothing sader than an unhugged felon.The people that I described in my earlier posts were REAL not some fantasy to prove a point.How did the children I spoke about fail to send out the right "vibes"?I think you have a very distorted perception if you think I am "fearful and paranoid".I've come to grips with my own mortality some time ago in fact my outlook is like native americans of old "today is a good day to die".Not much scares me.Am I paranoid? I pick up hitchhikers,Stop for stranded motorists,I go pretty much where ever I damn well please day or night,I'm not afraid to talk to or help people that may be acting a bit strangely,I don't kill ANYTHING I don't eat unless it is a direct threat to me and my family or my livestock.I do put up no trespassing signs on my property.Why? paranoia? No,it is because it marks a boundry.Some folks, usually those just driving by from the city seem to think that my farm is a petting zoo,free fire hunting zone, and a help yourself free garden enterprise.The postman doesn't low crawl or wear a flak jacket to drop off a large parcel at the door.Neighbors do call before they stop by.People actully ring the doorbell!Break ins are a rarity on my road these days.Night prowlers and thefts were common before I moved up here.Must be all the "goood vibes" I send out.I hope you are never visited by the violence that people related stories of on this board.I don't think you will be equiped to deal with it and get on with your life.A point I can't prove until it is too late.I suspect it is people like me that keep people like you from being eaten by the wolves.This is going a little off topic earthmama but sometihng you would do best to remember.In order to achieve your goal of disarming me you will have to become like me.Think about that at the next million moron march..............Silly me signing off.

-- greg (gsmith@tricountyi.net), February 26, 2001.

I think this whole issue of personal and property security is a matter of balance. If I owned a bank I would have bigger locks than if I owned a newspaper-stall. If I lived in some cities of the world I would have a high fence and a couple of loose dogs inside, as it is I have a front door that is always locked whenever we are upstairs and we have an escape route.

If I walked the streets of some cities with a pistol in my pocket I would be very underdressed. If I say "As'Salaam Alykum" to the guard at the hotel gate he will put his AK-47 aside and might even shake my hand, if I went for my .45 he would slit my fat gut with his bayonet.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), February 26, 2001.

Earthmama. I posted this story here so we could all think about our own personal security. I don't sleep w/ my M-16 anymore. I did that when I worked for the Government. My "paranoia" levels have decreased considerably since those days.

Weapons for personal defense are sometimes a nessessary thing. I wouldn't want my son to shoot some bozo just for stealing "stuff". They can have the "stuff". But I would rather he shoot someone else than end up murdered or maimed himself. Even here in the boonies of S. Indiana there are people who would do you harm for the hell of it. You may remember I work in the ER? I've had the good fortune to work on a few of the recipiants of these "random acts of unkindness".

No, as traumatic as it would be for a young boy to have to shoot a person, I'd rather he deal w/ that than w/ the trachea tube and ventilator of one young boy I saw last year in my ER. He's now a "cabbage patch kid" in a nursing home from blunt trauma to the head.

I don't feel like we're in constant danger and need Johns bazookas and land mines. I do feel that sometimes (like last week) SHIT DOES HAPPEN!!! whether I initiate it, my Karma gets wrinkled or whatever the cause, giving myself another option of response is only prudent.

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), February 26, 2001.

Been meaning to answer this for some time, but time has been elusive. First, I suspect this intrusion was not by one of your country neighbors, but by some dirt-bag from a nearby population center. Second, the "gun in every room" idea is good, but the fact that my small frame .357 accompanies me whenever I am not naked is better. When I AM naked, it is within arm's reach. However, during those occassions, an intruder will either be mesmerized, or horrified, depending upon gender. Your guess! GL!

-- Brad (homefixer@SacoRiver.net), February 26, 2001.

Well, Greg, I have no desire to argue with you; I never argue with angry individuals anyway; only fuels their fire. When I inferred your attitude of 'paranoia', I was referrring to your post where you stated how your " attitude has become necessary in modern day America." In my humble opinion, this is hogwash, but you have the right to believe whatever hogwash you wish, just as I do. Yes, I do believe all those things you sarcastically accused me of, and I don't mind at all that you think me silly! As to whether I am equipped to deal with whatever I experience in this life, I rather doubt you are equipped to make that judgement! :)

I do find this statement fascinating though..." In order to achieve your goal of disarming me you will have to become like me." Disarming you??? HUH?? Thats great.......and you say you're not paranoid ???

OH, and John, yes I did see some of the star wars movies, and I believe I agree with you! The Force is pretty obviously a metaphor for the power we have available within us, but most of us have no awareness of, and instead look someplace outward for, mostly in vain.

Blessings, and peace...and wishing you only high frequency vibrations...

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), February 26, 2001.

I'm angry??????? My opinion is "hogwash"?Your opinion is sacrosanct? facts not with standing.You started calling people by name not me.John is a big boy and can take care of himself.What he was doing is refered to as "taking the piss out of someone".It was in no way adversarial I have no desire to shove any agenda down his throat(or yours) any more than he has a desire to shove one down mine.Perhaps you need to reread the above posts I made.ALL of them.I don't think you will find much vitriol in them.Don't confuse me with someone else.I find it typical that you conveniently ignore any facts that don't jibe with your agenda.The one fact that I can not argue with is whether or not you are equipped to take what "the force" has to dish out.Can you answer the question "What did two little girls do to get raped,kidnapped,and beaten?"I can understand that the fellow that was beaten to death had it coming to him because he had a car and the man that killed him did not.The guy with the bat was just acting out of frusteration at being confronted with social injustice and a lack of convenient transportation.What could the kids in the posts above have done to earn such shitty Karma?They could not all have been republicans in a past incarnation.Notice how I am using children's saftey to make my point.Something I'll bet you are not unfamilier with.You get the last word Earthmama.John got the last one with me because he and I were getting silly about a serious subject.You may believe it or not but you and I are more on the same sheet of music than we are not.I support all of your freedoms and rights.I hope you support mine.I don't want this exchange to become unpleasent or destructive.Again you get the last word so feel free to fire away and "love bomb" a stationary and unresisting target.I can take it.I stand on the strength of my words not my weapons. genuine wishes of peace to you earthmama. greg

-- greg (gsmith@tricountyi.net), February 26, 2001.

Despite his promises, Bill Clinton put LESS police on the street in 8 years time, than George Bush Senior did in 4. 100,000 officers promised, actually equated to about 6,000 officers delivered. Oh how much SAFER we feel!

-- T.C. (teenchef@msn.com), February 27, 2001.

Thanks Greg and Earthmama. I am sorry, I was not intending to do a urine extraction on either of you, it was the subject I was trying to laugh at. Seems everytime there is a discussion of something like security lights it leads onto a debate as the to merits of various killing utensils and the need to drag the carcass back over the property line.

I guess I should be more careful on this site, there is a cultural gulf of more than 10,000 kilometers between here and the USA (and that is only to California).

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), February 27, 2001.

Greg posted a story about some of our dearest friends, the Mennonite family with the 4 and 6 yr. old who were molested. We received the call to pray while the police were yet there. I feel I must add that this family would not have done anything different. They realize that they will likely carry lifelong scars except for the intervention of our dear God and Father. One thing was overlooked in the retelling of this event...the worth of an eternal soul. Those men were wicked, yes, and what they did is unimaginable, and yet the family would haved deeper scars had they taken away the chance for the salvation of these men. Christ came for the ungodly, the wicked, the unclean, the sinner (of which we all are). This family's scars will be lessened knowing that they didn't kill, they forgave, and by the prayers of all who know them.

-- Tammy (AK) (heritage@mtaonline.net), February 27, 2001.

Oh man, I just know I am going to regret this..but, ugh, these parents do not have the AUTHORITY, nor the POWER, to "take away the chance for salvation." Only God has that authority. What they do have is the authority and power and duty and obligation to care for the children God has given them. And we all have the authority, duty and obligation to protect the innocent from evil. And without this protection, evil is loosed.

I wonder about this thought process in regards to other situations, such as, Nazi Germany? Should evil have been left unrestrained? Should light never overcome darkness? How many more souls would be lost to eternal damnation, if the evil among us run rampant? Would they not then be the standard bearer?

I second Greg's question to Earthmama, I do so want to know what 2 small children did or did not do with their karma, positive thinking or whatever it is, that brought such evil to them? And exactly what age does one become responsible for keeping "bad things" at bay with their superior "good thoughts" only thing going on?

Greg, great stuff you have written. Thank You.

John, I am so very glad that all is Okay, brave young man you have. Bless You and Yours!

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), February 27, 2001.

Hey, just wanted to say that those interested in security without firearms should check out the thread titled that. Thanks.

Oh, and debating religious or spiritual beliefs is just painful in my experience. I wish no pain or suffering on anyone and do not believe that such is subject for debate, kids, adults, or otherwise.

-- Anne (HealthyTouch101@wildmail.com), February 27, 2001.

Thank you Tammy, for your insight. I agree completely, that this poor family's scars would be deeper yet had they killed and not forgiven.

As for me being invited to respond to Greg, I will make an attempt, although it is probably a mistake.

To me, personally, it isnt a question of what these dear innocent children did to "deserve" this. It's not that simplistic. I know nothing of this individual family, of the myriad dynamics they have encountered during their life's journeys.

I do however understand the concept of energy, and absolutely believe that when we operate on a vibrational frequency of fear, we will attract situations and people to our experience who will be more thatn happy to bring those fears to life. Its law of attraction--- like attracts like.

I have no quarrel with you. I guess I should probably keep my bizarre opinions to myself, and I guess I really don't fit in much here anywho. I'm not interested in 'disarming' anyone; I couldn't care less about your love affair with guns. I just come from a different perspective; it worked for me, and I am content. I guess I'd prefer a kinder, gentler, less angry and fearful community, but I wish you all the very best.....adios........

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), February 28, 2001.

Thank you earthmama and others who encourage a kinder gentler way of living. It seems that unless you are a certain "Brand" of Christian or obsessed with guns and "self-protection" your opinions are less than welcome on this forum, which is why you don't see me posting much. I for one have walked in peace among the most violent cultures in the world without a gun or other outward symbols of "protection". I walked in the confidence that my non-violent spirit would protect me and I have seen angry mobs move aside to let us pass. God's Blessing on you all and once again I challenge all the so-called Christians on this forum to read the teachings of Christ.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), February 28, 2001.