Can anyone recommend a source for *affordable* solar power systems? Also can you give me an idea of what the cost (with everything included) might be? We will only have a small household to power.

Thanks,

-- Lora Morris (LoraMorris@excite.com), February 15, 2001

Answers

In my experience "affordable" and "solar" are diametrically opposed and oxymoronic.That said there are bargains and deals to be had if you keep your eyes open as you drive around.A lot of people buy houses that had solar panels or solar hot water systems that don't use them.Some times you can make a deal.as for resources of information try Real Goods they should be on the net.Not so much to buy from them but they do put out a very informative catalog.Try E- bay as well.There seem to be cycles where stuff goes cheap.As far as cost I would really need to know what your wattage requirments will be on a daly basis.Buying new I would say the ball park would be $3000-$15000. Depending on how much power you want or can do without. Greg

-- Greg (gsmith@tricountyi.net), February 15, 2001.

Affordable solar is definitely not an oxymoron. We have about $10,000 invested in a system with 1100 watts of modules on a Zomeworks tracker, Trace 5548SW, 8 Trojan L16's, and controllers, metering, and wiring. Our electrical cost is zero for our normal home with lights, TV, stereo, computer, refrigerator, washer-dryer, water pump, etc. Our neighbors paid 60 bucks to have their power turned on, and their bill last month was $400.00. You do the math. We have the added benefit of confidence that our electricity will always be on.

Real Goods would be my last choice for bargains on solar equipment. They are mostly a bunch of latent hippies with an extremely liberal agenda to promote. You can find good deals on equipment at backwoodssolar.com (make them an offer) and bargainsolar.com. You can find out more about solar elcetric systems by reading Home Power magazine. www.homepower.com

-- Jim (catchthesun@yahoo.com), February 15, 2001.

Wow, Jim. That is encouraging. My kids just gave me a copy of Backwoods Home,which I don't subscribe to, but it had an article about some folks who had solar installed, and it cost them over $32,000! That was enough to discourage me from looking into it further, but now from what you have, there is hope! Jan

-- Jan in CO (Janice12@aol.com), February 15, 2001.

All the info above is correct as far as I know. Any renewable energy enthusiast will tell you step #1 is conservation. Its costs alot more to produce power than it does to conserve it.

Take the last twelve months electric bill and look at the kwh used. You're charged by the kwh consumed. Ad all twelve months up, divide the total by twelve and you'll have average monthly use. Take that total and divide by 30 and you'll have approx average daily usage. That number will give you approx how much energy you'll have to produce daily. Figure an installed system will cost $10-$12/watt to purchase and install. That can vary alot tho if you're willing to do some of the work yourself and if you can find used pv panels you'll save quite a bit there too.

homepower.com has all their back issues on line at no cost and there's a wealth of info there.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), February 16, 2001.

I whole heartly agree on the conservation.

I done a few installs for some friends.

First thing you need to do is look at what do you want to run. Meaning how much juice do you need? This is measured in Watt-Hours, meaning how watts does it consume for an hour.

Next figure out what you Need to run.

Consider carefully the items you want to run.

Here's a snippet of a converstaion I've recently had - hope it formats okay. I'd be a bit leery about spending 3K on a fridge, you could by a nice 18-20 cu.ft. fridge and some extra panels for close to that price. And have extra capacity to spare. Also the best way to beef up your fridge is to put extra insulation around it. That fiberglass board double sided with aluminum sheeting -- don't cover those coils! I've been looking at a new fridge for a while - Freezer on top model. Mine sucks 3kWday or 128WHour with a 21 amp start surge and a ~5amp run. A $750 new 18+cu.ft. @ ~750kWyear = 2.05kWday = 85WHour A $800 new 18+cu.ft. @ ~650kWyear = 1.78kWday = 74WHour A $850 new 18+cu.ft. @ ~575kWyear = 1.58kWday = 65WHour These numbers are from those little yellow energy tags. Not suprisingly these number are NOT published with the sales literature. And of course these numbers may NOT be the actual you will get from your fridge, as they are best case for that model. I'd buy the $850 fridge and spend the difference on the panels and batteries The side by side models are in the 1000++ kWyear usage. Also remove the bulb in to fridge - heat. I've not tried put a fluorescent bulb in, because I've yet to find one that will screw in. And they may not work very well in the cold. I found a 7W bulb which is almost satisfactory. Cleaning the coils will do wonders for energy utilization. The same goes for the AC coils - both inside and outside. Lighting is a minor energy usage when compared to the big items: [for my house] Climate control: AC uses 4000 Watts when powered on. Heat is even higher. Water Heater: 5500 Watts when powered on Fridge: 2-3 kW a day Pumps size dependent: 1 HP = ~750W A light bulb is typically on for about 5 hours. So the amount of juice they use is small to compared to the 'big' items. The only exception is those halogen lamps, they are juice hogs. A reply to the above: I'm not sure that I agree. The year round average insolation value for the Sacramento, CA area is 4.5 hours. To cover the difference in power usage between the two refrigerators (1.58kW/h per day for your model vs. 0.77kW/h per day for SunFrost) would require three 60W panels which will run about $1,000. You would also need an inverter ($750), some batteries ($400), charge controller ($100), something to hold the panels ($???) as well as other misc. installation costs. (Heavy gauge copper wire is expensive!) As you can see, the total cost of the new refrigerator and accessories will be somewhat higher that the $3,000 cost [~3500] of the SunFrost, and on average you won't have any extra power. You will also have a bit of work to do assembling and wiring vs. the SunFrost which you just take home and plug in. Also, I am assuming that the manufacturers are not blowing smoke up our backsides with their power usage figures. I have a SunFrost and can confirm its power usage. Ultimately, the correct solution is the one that moves you along to your final goal. ======= Correction: The Fridges are in the 18-20cu.ft size range with the best energy ratings. I even saw a nice one that had a 550kWYr rating. And yes, we know that the Vendor will make a batch and submit the best one for the energy calculations. I'd agree with you if you were just planing on buying a new fridge. As far as just plugging-in consider that the you are still dependent on the grid. However, for another ~$500 you can have a fridge that does not need the grid at all. But if you're already planning on doing a solar system then the 'overhead' can be part of the consideration. An extra battery or two and some extra panels. Using your numbers, which are excellent. After doing two installations, I've learned the following. Some minor details to consider: Depending on the charge controller and the solar panels. 1. A Trace Charge Controller [C40] is a 'lopper' so you lose any voltage above the battery voltage [plus ~ 0.3v]. This means that if your panels put out 35V you will lose ~7V [+], so you could use a thinner wire and take the hit in the wire. I've seen a run #6 wire over 70' with very good results feeding 15amps @ 34V. There was no thermal rise in the wire (rated @ 150C), and the actual voltage drop was <500mV. The #6 wire pair is ~$80 for 125' . We even hooked it up using #12 until we got the #6, now that had a 2V drop - but we still saw 15amps put into the batteries, and the wire did NOT get hot. 2. Home Depot sells PVC fence with metal inserts - a U channel [galvanized zinc]. These channels are ~$5 for 8', a pair of tin snips and 3 channels will make a nice stand for ground mounting. We used 'tech-screws' a sheet metal screw with a drill bit on the tip. The U channels are attached directly to the metal frame on the side of the panels. Making a nice leanto type structure that is adjustable and moveable for storms and service. Warning: The edges are very sharp and need to be filed and then covered. 3. Meci.com sells a nice interconnect cable for joining batteries together. P/N 650-0447 a 6" strap with 2 0ga wires terminated into 5/16" holed copper lugs $0.70 each. As you've stated, and I wholeheartedly agree: You mileage will vary depending upon the usage.

Hope that formated well!

As pointed out if you're gonna do a system it is cheaper to spend less money on a 'high effiency' item and use that savings on 'beefing up the total system.

I.e. you buy a sunfrost fridge @ ~$3000. You own a really nice fridge that is still grid dependent. If you spend ~$3500 you have a basic off the grid system. Add another $2500 and you have a very basic home of the grid excluding an AC running. A few lights [flourescent] and ceiling fans and small TeeVee / VCR & CD/Boombox stereo.

Some really rough numbers to crunch with figure with:
panels are ~$5 per watt (NOT watt-hour) - this is location dependent. See http://www.fsec.ucf .edu/Solar/Links/links.htm See the 'US Solar Radiation Resource Maps' link.
batteries and the balance of the system is another ~$5 per watt.

I've had good service from these folks: http://www.solar-electric.com/

-- (perry@ofuzzy1.com), February 16, 2001.

Opps, let's try that again.

Part of a solar system conversation.

I'd be a bit leery about spending 3K on a fridge, you could by a nice
18-20 cu.ft. fridge and some extra panels for close to that price. And
have extra capacity to spare.  Also the best way to beef up your
fridge is to put extra insulation around it. That fiberglass board
double sided with aluminum sheeting -- don't cover those coils!

I've been looking at a new fridge for a while - Freezer on top model.
 Mine sucks 3kWday or 128WHour with a 21 amp start surge and a ~5amp
run.
 A $750 new 18+cu.ft. @ ~750kWyear = 2.05kWday = 85WHour
 A $800 new 18+cu.ft. @ ~650kWyear = 1.78kWday = 74WHour
 A $850 new 18+cu.ft. @ ~575kWyear = 1.58kWday = 65WHour

 These numbers are from those little yellow energy tags.  Not
suprisingly these number are NOT published with the sales literature.
And of course these numbers may NOT be the actual you will get from
your fridge, as they are best case for that model.

 I'd buy the $850 fridge and spend the difference on the panels and
batteries
The side by side models are in the 1000++ kWyear usage.
 Also remove the bulb in to fridge - heat.  I've not tried put a
fluorescent bulb in, because I've yet to find one that will screw in.
 And they may not work very well in the cold.  I found a 7W bulb which
is almost satisfactory.

 Cleaning the coils will do wonders for energy utilization.
  The same goes for the AC coils - both inside and outside.

 Lighting is a minor energy usage when compared to the big items:
  [for my house]
   Climate control: AC uses 4000 Watts when powered on.
                     Heat is even higher.
               Water Heater: 5500 Watts when powered on
               Fridge: 2-3 kW a day
               Pumps size dependent: 1 HP = ~750W

 A light bulb is typically on for about 5 hours. So the amount of
juice they use is small to compared to the 'big' items.  The only
exception is those halogen lamps, they are juice hogs.

A reply to the above:

I'm not sure that I agree.  The year round average insolation value
for the Sacramento, CA area is 4.5 hours.  To cover the
 difference in power usage between the two refrigerators (1.58kW/h per
day for your model vs. 0.77kW/h per day for SunFrost) would require
three 60W panels which will run about $1,000.  You would also need an
inverter ($750), some batteries ($400), charge controller ($100),
something to hold the panels ($???) as well as other misc.
installation costs.  (Heavy gauge copper wire is expensive!)
 
 As you can see, the total cost of the new refrigerator and
accessories will be somewhat higher that the $3,000 cost [~3500] of
the SunFrost, and on average you won't have any extra power.  You will
also have a bit of work to do assembling and wiring vs. the SunFrost
which you just take home and plug in.  Also, I am assuming that the
manufacturers are not blowing smoke up our backsides with their power
usage figures.  I have a SunFrost and can confirm its power usage.
 
 Ultimately, the correct solution is the one that moves you along to
your final goal.
 

=======
Correction: The Fridges are in the 18-20cu.ft size range with the best
energy ratings.  I even saw a nice one that had a 550kWYr rating.

And yes, we know that the Vendor will make a batch and submit the best
one for the energy calculations.

I'd agree with you if you were just planing on buying a new fridge.
As far as just plugging-in consider that the you are still dependent
on the grid.

However,  for another ~$500 you can have a fridge that does not need
the grid at all.
But if you're already planning on doing a solar system then the
'overhead' can be part of the consideration.
An extra battery or two and some extra panels.

Using your numbers, which are excellent.

After doing two installations, I've learned the following.

Some minor details to consider:
  Depending on the charge controller and the solar panels.
1. A Trace Charge Controller [C40] is a 'lopper' so you lose any
voltage above the battery voltage [plus ~ 0.3v].  This means that if
your panels put out 35V you will lose ~7V [+], so you could use a
thinner wire and take the hit in the wire. I've seen a run #6 wire
over 70' with very good results feeding 15amps @ 34V.  There was no
thermal rise in the wire (rated @ 150C), and the actual voltage drop
was &lt;500mV. The #6 wire pair is ~$80 for 125' .  We even hooked it
up using #12 until we got the #6, now that had a 2V drop - but we
still saw 15amps put into the batteries, and the wire did NOT get hot.

2. Home Depot sells PVC fence with metal inserts - a  U channel
[galvanized zinc].  These channels are ~$5 for 8', a pair of tin snips
and 3 channels will make a nice stand for ground mounting.  We used
'tech-screws' a sheet metal screw with a drill bit on the tip. The U
channels are attached directly to the metal frame on the side of the
panels.  Making a nice leanto type structure that is adjustable and
moveable for storms and service. Warning: The edges are very sharp and
need to be filed and then covered.

3. Meci.com sells a nice interconnect cable for joining batteries
together. P/N 650-0447 a 6&quot; strap with 2 0ga wires terminated
into  5/16&quot; holed copper lugs $0.70 each.

As you've stated, and I wholeheartedly agree:
  You mileage will vary depending upon the usage.

-- (perry@ofuzzy1.com), February 16, 2001.

http://www.windsun.com/Small_Systems/Home_basics1.htm

Here's a good starting point, same folks as mentioned above, just their orginal website.

-- (perry@ofuzzy1.com), February 16, 2001.

Ugh, formatting is bitting me today.
the & lt is code for < 'the less than sign'
the & quot is code for " 'the quote sign' in this case meaning inch.

-- (perry@ofuzzy1.com), February 16, 2001.