Thought Crimes (Reposted Thread) (Social Issues)

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(Note from Ken: For some reason the forum server ate the replies to this post. If you replied to it the first time, or have new insight, please repost as it was a very interested thread until something happened on the server. While it has Jack's id, I did the reposting.)

Here in Atlanta late last year, a 5th grade girl was suspended for bringing a Tweety Bird keychain to school for Show and Tell as it violated the zero-tolerance policy on weapons, which clearly forbids chains! I thought it couldn't get any worse until I read this today. JONESBORO, Ark. (AP) - An 8-year-old boy was suspended from school for 3 days after pointing a breaded chicken finger at a teacher and saying, ``Pow, pow, pow.''

The incident apparently violated the Jonesboro School District's zero-tolerance policy against weapons. The boy was suspended last week.

Kelli Kissinger, mother of first-grader Christopher, said she believed the punishment was too severe.

``I think a chicken strip is something insignificant,'' she said. ``It's just a piece of chicken. How could you play like it's a gun?''

South Elementary principal Dan Sullivan said he was prevented by law from discussing Christopher's suspension.

Sullivan said the school has zero-tolerance rules because the public wants them.

In March 1998, four students and a teacher were killed and 10 others wounded when two youths opened fire on a schoolyard at Jonesboro's Westside Middle School.

``People saw real threats to the safety and security of their students,'' Sullivan said.

A school discipline form provided by the boy's mother and signed by Sullivan says the child was suspended because he ``took a chicken strip off his plate, pointed it at (a teacher) and said 'Pow, pow, pow,' like he was shooting her.''

Sullivan said punishment for a threat ``depends on the tone, the demeanor, and in some manner you judge the intent. It's not the object in the hand, it's the thought in the mind. Is a plastic fork worse than a metal fork? Is a pencil a weapon?''

-- jack (atl@mailexcite.com), February 05, 2001

Answers

Unless it was a misprint, what is an eight-year-old doing as a first grader At eight, I was starting the fourth grade. Has this child had a history of behavorial problems? I note this school system would be very sensitive due to the prior shooting of students at their middle school.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), February 05, 2001.

Ken, I'm impressed. Fourth grade at age eight. While times have changed, the public school I attended, along with their birthday cutoff dates, I wasn't even allowed to start school until I was seven. Since my birthday is in January, I myself turned eight while I was in first grade. (The school never offered kindergarten until years later.) I think I'm normal and didn't have behavior problems in school. I advanced a grade each year as well. Yup, I turned fourteen in grade school and could even have a driver's license. Finished high school at age 18. Now as I recall most kids today finish at age 17 or 18.

Different states have different age/birthday rules. Don't judge so quickly please.

-- Notforprint (Not@thekeyboard.com), February 05, 2001.


Don't be too quick to judge the teacher. I too agree that a chicken finger sounds totally ludicrous, but you don't know what else has been going on all year. He could have made other threats and this was the last straw or something. I taught 1st grade for 3 years and never had this happen, but I did have to ask the parent's permission to hug them back when they hugged me good bye each day! That sounds ludicrous too doesn't it!!! What is this world coming too! , and an 8 year old has other troubles than just pointing a chicken stick if he has been in 1st grade for 3 years! They normally start at 6. Some bright kids, like Ken must have been, start as early as 5. There is definitely something else going on with the child than what they are telling. I would bet that there was an unsaid threat coming from the home. We will probably never know the"Rest of the Story"!

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), February 05, 2001.

OOPS sorry Notforprofit! I was just telling what is the norm now days. I didn't teach before the 80's and I imagine that you were in school long before that, HUH?! sorry!

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), February 05, 2001.

Just a couple of points to make: Many young boys would act like this after being influenced by TV, movies etc... I never let my son have any play guns even though we have real ones in the house and hunt also. I never thought they should be seen as a toy. My son also will turn 8 in May and is in 1st grade. He turned 5 in May and I didn't send him to Kindergarten, having made that choice with all 4 of my children, so he went to school at 6, turned 7 in Kindergarten, started 1st grade at 7, and will turn 8 this year. It was definitely the best choice for him. He reads easily, is a whiz at math, is extremely well behaved, (to the point that teachers were arguing over who would get him in class, they all wanted him!!!). In our district it is a growing trend to keep them home one extra year. They are under a lot of pressure once they start school. Many children just don't have any advocates. They don't get help with homework, they don't have proper meals, decent clothes, necessary school supplies, enough sleep, or any guidelines about TV, movies, video games etc... My children tell me many things about kids at school that many people would find unbelievable. It's not easy.

-- Melissa (cmnorris@1st.net), February 05, 2001.


Let's see. Birth date is in November. I started first grade at five, second at six, third at seven and fourth at eight. Graduated at seventeen and went, almost immediately, into military service. Nothing particularly bright about it, just the way it was done then.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), February 05, 2001.

I think that it is only fair to note that Jonesboro, AR does have a history of students having killed teachers with firearms. This might lead to some lack of tolerance on the part of the surviving teachers.

Now it is also noteworthy that we, as Americans do not punish juviniles for capital crimes (like murder) the same way that we might punish an adult. We are pretty leinent with adults too, but that could be another whole thread. For juviniles we seem content to restrain them, in some way until the reach legal age and like as not do it again.

The whole situation makes a pretty good case for home schooling, if you ask me.

-- Ed Copp (OH) (edcopp@yahoo.com), February 05, 2001.


I was on the same schedule as Ken. They actually kicked me out of the house at 4 to start kindergarten, so I would have been 5 when I started first grade as well. One weird thing I remember about it is that although I was reading at 3 (not because I am smart, just come from a reading family of parents and older siblings- I think the siblings actually taught me), I hadn't yet learned to tie my shoes. And, this was pre-velcro era! It was a drag, as I recall, cause all the older kids seemed to have already mastered the task. Not sure how widespread this next idea is, but several years ago when I inherited 2 young nephews I did a lot of research into education (crash course for me!). My then 5 yo had a lot of problems when he started school, so I was scrambling to find a way to help him. Anyway- I discovered that there is a large contingent of educators who now advocate starting kids, especially boys, as late as 8 or even 9 years old. The theory is that the kids benefit so much from the extra time at home, and when they do start school they catch up so quickly that there is usually no gap resulting from the time spent away from school. The real issue is supposed to be that many/most kids are just too little/immature, whatever, to be away from home for such a big part of their day. (The argument also extended to having kids in daycare). I found that a lot of what they were saying seemed to fit Matthew (though his older brother sailed through the early grades, so who knows?), and I would have opted to either homeschool him or to at least keep him out an extra year if the decision had been mine. (It wasn't). We just tried to give him the extra attention that he seemed to need, and I'm happy to report that both boys are A students now and seem to be thriving and love school.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), February 05, 2001.

I agree, wholeheartedly, with Ed. One heck of a case for homeschooling!

I can't help but think, with the rash of school shootings (and we've had them in Canada too, despite the "gun control laws"), that people aren't yet waking up and smelling the proverbial coffee....when are people going to get it that if they have kids, they have a duty to teach them right from wrong, spend time with them (not park them in front of the television set every day, unsupervised) and, to state it in no uncertain terms: RAISE THEIR OWN CHILDREN. Responsibility is something that children learn by the example of adults. At some point, I sincerely hope that people begin to GET THIS!

I'm not saying that the occasional "bad apple" can't show up in a perfectly wonderful family, but I think that it is interesting that a lot of our "social problems" with regard to youth started in earnest when two income families became the norm.

Interesting, and I'm sure, a controversial subject, but I intend to know where my kids are and what they're doing until they're old enough to make their own decisions, responsibly. And that isn't at eight.

-- Tracy (trimmer@westzone.com), February 05, 2001.


First of all I read back over my first post and want to apologize for my quick agreement with Ken(sorry Ken, you are just right so often! heehee). I felt bad to label the kid ,if I had done that,just because he was 8 and in 1st grade. I thought back and I had one wonderful kid who was 8 in my class and 1 hooligan that was 8 in my class. The one who was wonderful had been ill a lot of his life and had begun late and the one that was a hooligan was just in need of firm discipline and a lot of tlc. He came out just fine. I don't think the norm is to be 8 and in first grade, but I am sure that we could come up with plenty of examples of it happening and with great results. The trick here is to see through the eyes of the teacher. We may not ever know what threats were made prefacing his "shooting with the chicken finger". We can all laugh, but I have been scared a couple of times when a "mean" drunk parent came to pick up a child, or I had to read a statement saying that a certain child was being hidden from another parent without custodial care that had threatened to kill the child and the mother. I'm a homeschooler for exactly those reasons and for more than just those. I love to see my children every day. It is not a burden for me to do that, it is a joy! They are not perfect, but they are pretty decent kids and I am glad they are mine. I also have insight into the problem that maybe some of you don't have. Very rarely would a principal take action without a good reason. I have seen parents threatening principals and even known of one to come and clean a princ. clock because the principal had the nerve to place her son under suspension. The teachers and principals have a tough job and not much support. Most people assume that the child is always right. HMMMMMMM....anyone with children knows that they sometimes don't tell the truth. It is a bummer that anything has to happen but I just say we can't possibly know what else went on. Who knows maybe the teacher is allergic to poultry(trying to lighten up the subject, but not funny HUH?)

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), February 05, 2001.


Nan, Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I respect and honor your decision to homeschool, and I deeply appreciate your sympathetic awareness of the challenges faced by teachers and school staff. I've been teaching in public schools for almost 10 years now, and have worked with kids from pre-K through highschool, gifted little angels to juvenile delinquents. Joy and heartbreak are constant companions. At the alternative school, with our closed campus and patroling policeman, gave many of our students the only safe place in their dangerous lives. One of the little ones I teach now, a repeat first grader, dictated what he was thankful for last November, 1 his family and 2 that he finally learned to read. As to those who start their kids' schooling earlier or later than 'usual' - There is a trend toward lowering the age at which skills are expected to be mastered. When I was in Kg in the late 50's, we were proud to sing the alphabet song and learn 'social skills.' My kindergartners now are expected to be reading by spring. Some kids take to reading like ducks to water and that's great. But some just aren't ready. You know your kids best, wherever they are schooled. And I don't think CS folks need to be reminded to trust their instincts. About the original post - I, too, wonder about 'the rest of the story.'

-- Nina in E TX (nchick4997@aol.com), February 05, 2001.

Personally, I think this all has a lot to do with people in authority who are afraid to exercise that authority - ther is such a thing as a discretionary decision, case by case, on whether it actually violates the "spirit" of the law, rather than just a knee jerk immediate reaction to whatever may violate the "word" of the law. Case in point, there was a ruckus around here when a young girl on a school bus saved a classmate's life when said classmate went into a severe asthma attack. The girl ran to her classmate and gave the poor child a few doses of her inhaler (which she always carried because she, too, was asthmatic.) Upon hearing of her courageous, quick thinking, the principal immediately suspended her for violating the school's no- tolerence rules which decree suspension when a student knowingly provides prescription drugs to another student who is not a beneficiary of said prescription!

When asked about the absurditiy of the suspension (for no one doubted that although the letter of the law was clear, the spirit of the law had been nowhere near vilolated), all he had to say was that his hands were tied because of the rules.

Horse hockey! He's the principal, he can arbitrarily decide that someone saving a life pretty much is not dealing in drugs! This would, of course, lead to charges (by parents of kids tossed out for actually dealing drugs, no doubt) that the rules were not applied equally to everybody, but I sincerely doubt that it would stand up in court, if public outrage didn't kill in before it got that far. No, these people are just happy with their power and their pay as long as no hard decisions that might prove politically "hot" are expected to be paid. Yes, I know that not all principals are like this, but most of the ones I've known personally were just ex-jocks who peaked in their senior year and are paddling as fast as they can not to lose their "position" of power and status amongst an ever dwindling alumni that remember them when they were MVP.

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), February 06, 2001.


Soni, I'm sorry that your experience with Principals has been so rotten. I kinda have to giggle thinking about any of the principals that I have known as jocks. One was a sweet older woman that was maybe 4'11" and was a superb person. Another that comes to mind was a very soft spoken man who had complete respect from all of the students and who was a great mentor to me as a teacher. Neither were jocks although I am sure there must be some out there. It is sad that when one messes up that it affects all of their characters! I have heard of similar absurd cases of the principals twisting the rules or standing too firmly by another. It takes a long time to become a principal. I would like to think that most of them are not without some moral character. Unfortunately they are human just like the rest of us. Some are just more so.

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), February 06, 2001.

Jack:

Read a week or so back where two TN high school girls were suspended for a year after it was found they had prepared a hit list of other students. Would this be a thought crime? School violence is an extremely touchy issue right now so it better for zero tolerence or just wait for something to happen?

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), February 12, 2001.


Notforprint,

You said that you turned 8 in first grade but that you GRADUATED HIGH SCHOOL at age EIGHTEEN! Doing the math here, I have the following table: Kindergarten Age 6 at start; turn age 7 in January First grade Age 7 at start; turn age 8 in January TEN years later: Turn 18 in January In May or June: Graduate while 18 This means that either your school had only 11 grades or you skipped a grade between 1st and 12th (since graduation for HS generally occurs in either May or June). For the record, I entered kindergarten at 5 and first grade at 6 (with a May birthday) but I skipped a grade w/in 2 wks of starting 1st grade and now am in college at 17. Both of my roommates, though, are 19 - one with a July birthday (his younger brother, who is older than I am by 9 days, is in 11th grade; he was held back and therefore was 8 in first grade) and one with a November birthday.

-- William (meyerson@fas.harvard.edu), January 28, 2002.



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