I was driving into work this week on a paved rural road. It is my normal road. It was covered with ice which is no trouble with my awd Suv [at least I can handle it]. I came up to a sharp turn and there it was. It looked like it had been a Metro at one time. I stopped and helped the woman. She had skidded off of the road and hit a small bank. The car had collapsed like an empty beer can. Fortunately, she only had a cut on her head but the car was a goner. We called a tow truck and had the green party bedecked loss hauled away.

I can understand wanting good gas usage, but these things are not safe. I will stick with my SUV for a while.

Cheers,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), February 02, 2001

Answers

Ah yes, the lovely Geo Metro... I used to own one of these things back before I knew better. They are nothing more than a casket on wheels, IMO. If you're in an accident in one of these things they can simply bury you in it and save the funeral expenses.

I now own a big gas-guzzling SUV and it's safe to say that I'll NEVER go back to one of these "fuel-efficient" little death traps.

-- nonehere (none@to.give.net), February 02, 2001.

Agreed.

I first became aware of the wonders of sitting 5 feet above the ground while behind the wheel in my F-250 4X4. One day the Mrs' boss borrowed it so he could move some furniture, and he left me the keys to his Porche, a fair trade I think. A 911 is a nice ride, no doubt, but the whole while I played around in it I could not shake the idea that I would surely die if hit. So yeah, I'll continue to bite the bullet at the pump.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), February 02, 2001.

Fashions change. Remember the 70s? Anyone who drove a "gas guzzler" was a lout. Lightweight fuel efficient vehicles, especially foreign makes, were the PC thing to do.

The came the 80s. Fuel was not scarce. SUVs became fashionable even tho most people never drive off-the-road. People also became aware that small cars offered little crash protection as compared to heavier vehicles.

It's all a trade-off. Want do you value most--safety, fuel efficiecy, style?

Just don't blame the vehicle manufacturers for your own choices. We'll gladly sell you whatever you want. (preferably SUVs, the profits are greater)

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), February 02, 2001.

I think my favorite part of the Little Plastic Cars Syndrome is that for some reason known only to their drivers and God, they insist on cutting off, say, semis, 4x4s, my tank-like station wagon, etc.

Do they realize that if any of us actually hit them, we'd probably never even notice?

(BTW, Unk, damn fair trade, IMO.)

-- (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), February 02, 2001.

Lars:

Just don't blame the vehicle manufacturers for your own choices. We'll gladly sell you whatever you want.

Not exactly true. We had 300 series BMW's for years. They aren't Fiesta's or Metro's. A Focus would be relatively safe. None of these are 40 mpg but they do well [my last 300 got 35 mpg on the freeway]. These super high efficiency cars get the mileage by reducing weight to the point of lack of safety. My only point. Just don't hit anything bigger than a bicycle.

By-the-by, the woman said she was going 25 mph. I would believe her. There was 2 in of ice on the road with falling rain.

Cheers,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), February 02, 2001.

Gas mileage, saving money, and keeping the air clean is important to some of us. Not everyone is a greedy garbage-spewing idiot like yourself, though I must admit, there are a lot of them.

-- (to.each.his@own.dipshit), February 03, 2001.

How is it that a road covered with ice is no trouble for an AWD or 4WD? Is the coefficient of friction somehow suspended for these mighty vehicles?

I'll give you that when the roads are snowy & unplowed, it's easier to get moving from a standing start with 4wd. But that's about it, despite the ads touting some vague 'I feel more safe' message, showing a gas guzzler driving around in the rain. Vague indeed, because suggestion is more powerful than the reality.

High ground clearance is probably a more important attribute than expensive 4wd.

Most importantly... even if 4x4 *did* somehow work magic over road ice... so what? You wouldn't in that case get home any faster, since the road ahead would be bumper to bumper with 2wd cars anyway!

-- scarecrow (somewhere@over.rainbow), February 03, 2001.

Z is a bored, lonely old man. He likes to brag about his assets in hope that he can impress someone. This is obviously why he doesn't have any real friends. No one likes a self-centered materialistic old fuck, especially an arrogant one.

Hey Z,

Get into your big fucking SUV death machine and drive straight to hell. Do not pass go, and do not collect $200.

-- (Z@big.snobby.roadhog), February 03, 2001.

My Civic, loaded with some bulk bags of cat litter and a few concrete blocks in the truck, is a better snow car for Columbus freeways than the SUVs. Further, I've never seen a Civic in the ditch around here on a black ice day. Can't say the same for the SUVs.

-- kb (kb8um8@yahoo.com), February 03, 2001.

Unc's F250 makes a lot of sense to me. Those of you with SUV's had best be driving one with a reasonably wide wheel base and lower center of gravity than most of them have. Many are fairly easy to roll, especially during emergency maneuvers (like maybe sliding on ice). A good set of tires that performs well in rain and snow is also a great idea. I've experienced a wide range of performance among various types of tires on the same vehicle, during hazardous conditions.

-- Bad Weather Driver (Good.tires@are.worth.the.investment), February 03, 2001.

kb, when I did a stint at Volvo some years ago, they did almost the same thing.....they all drove around with 50 lb. bags of sand in the trunk to keep the rears of the cars from sliding out in snow AND rain.

I wondered if the price of the car was actually worth it at that point. (I did have the opportunity to drive the 850 a couple of times. I've never in my life driven a car that handled a turn at 55 like this one did. Wow.)

Not scientific, just an observation: I think there are more SUVs per capita in this town.....just wish the damn drivers actually knew how to drive the damn things. I've come to the conclusion that one of the reasons so many of the people in this town own/drive them is because these are the people who ALWAYS have a damn cell phone stuck to their freaking ear while driving. This way, when they get into an accident because they're yapping instead of paying attention, they won't get hurt.

Oddly enough, that observation is not an exaggeration. Drive around this town for less than an hour and you, too, will see this.

-- (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), February 03, 2001.

All this chatter about SUV's and little cars seems kinda silly. In snow country all we use is 4X4 PICKUPS. Only the city boys call em trucks! A truck has a flatbed with duals or tandem axles and you haul livestock or grain to town in. And anybody that would put concrete blocks in the back of any rig is askin for a permanent headache followed by rigamortus. Saw a fatal accident one time where some heavy stuff in the back come flyin forward and took the head clean off of one woman and debrained the husband. Made a believer out of me! Nothin beats good traction tires that are all pullin and weight up the yinyangs!

-- Boswell (fundown@thefarm.net), February 03, 2001.

Are they placing bets on their cell phones Patricia?

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), February 03, 2001.

KB, remember the other day? Srain (snow/rain mix) during morning rushhour. I left the house took I90 west, noticed everybody doing at most 30-35 mph, couldnt figure out why. I proceeded along at a good clip in my Grand Am, UNTIL.....

I got off the free way, noticed 1 SUV stuck in a ditch and discovered opps oh shit, I was flying around on black ice.

My other car is a eagle sumit es, small death trap. Tore up the grand am 2 christmases ago on 480, spun around 2x and ended up on top of freeway hill bank staring at traffic.

2 tow trucks and these airbags later, they pulled me out. Over $4500 damage to the car.!!!!

Personally I would buy an suv in a minute, but being 5'2 it would be like puttin me in a tank... LOOK OUT DRIVERS,,,,,here comes SUMER.

Um, not!!!!

We are going to buy new car end of this year, ANYONE got any ideas?

I get to 'pick' this time, cuz hubby picked grnd am last time?

All help is appreciated!!!

Oh lets try to keep it a lil under 21,000.

Thanks.

-- sumer (shh@aol.con), February 03, 2001.

You have to wonder, Lars. Most of the ones I've seen are women with children in the SUV. But there are exceptions.

Yesterday, I was driving to the gas station and I was in the left turn lane. Big intersection, so there are two turn lanes -- I'm on the right (considering the girth of my vehicle). The Chevy version of an Explosion is on my left, so when I make my turn, I swing it a little wider to give the guy room.

Doesn't pay to be nice.

The SOB leans on the horn at me (apparently, his Explosion needed two freaking turn lanes). So I wave my hand as if to say "go ahead". SOB is driving next to me and opens the door on his side (WHILE HE'S DRIVING!) and looks as if he's going to get out or whatever. Then he closes the door and makes a move as if he's going to hit me!! I mean, he ALMOST HIT ME. I can't believe he's doing this. Then I notice a kid, maybe about 7, in the front seat with no seatbelt. I can't believe this even MORE.

But the story doesn't end here. Oh no.

He floors it to speed ahead of me (as if I COULD speed in an '85 Custom Cruiser - duh) and as I near the speed limit, shit-for- brains CUTS RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME!! I had to slam on the brakes, the guy behind me almost hits me.....and all I want to do is hit this moron in the head with a heavy, blunt object (not that he'd notice or anything).

If he hadn't made the next left, I swear I would have beat him senseless. All I wanted to do was find a cop so this bastard would get a ticket for the kid with no seatbelt in the front seat.

How is it that people like this are not only allowed to drive, but they apparently can REPRODUCE?!?!?!

-- (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), February 03, 2001.

Ford builds a damn fine 'pick-up' sumer. Not a good choice for haulin kids around, but for those of us without rugrats it's nice to have at least one 'pick-up' in the family. And if hubby is at all handy around the house (as am I) he will love filling it up with mulch and rocks and 2X4s and all manner of good manly project stuff. A basic full sized F-150 with 4X4 can be had for less than 21k, no sweat. Who needs all that fancy electric window crap anyway, just more shit to break IMHO.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), February 03, 2001.

Oh yeah, just thought of a short story.

No less than two weeks after having pulled off the dealer's lot with my nice shiny red F-250 me and the future to be Mrs D were cruising innocently down the street. Well don't you know that a 16 year old young blonde chippy makes a left hand turn right in front of me, and I mean RIGHT in front of me. I locked em up but to no avail....BOOM! I spun her Honda half way around so she was facing were she came from, and the entire side of that car of hers was smashed in but good from the passenger door on back, and I mean un-drivable. I jumped out to make sure she was OK, she was shook up but fine, so I took a look back in agony to view the damage to my new toy. Well, I had a dime sized chip of paint missing from where the front bumper had flexed back and scraped against the paint before springing back good as new. That was it. I was sold buddy, but good. Pick-ups and SUVs for this boy from that day forward.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), February 03, 2001.

How is it that a road covered with ice is no trouble for an AWD

If you have to ask that question, there is no sense in attempting a reply. Some of the new, computer controlled, AWD systems are amazing. The best one that I have driven was on an Audi. Subaru seems to be very good. My problem is that those lack the ground clearance that I need.

kb:

Why would you put weight in the back of a front wheel drive car. Perhaps to overcome the relativly poor design in terms of weight distribution. And the civic is one of the better small cars.

I saw one [Civic] have problems in December of this year on I70. They lost control coming down a hill. Hit a collapsible bridge railing. It cut them in two pieces and exploded in a fire ball. I talked to one of the rescue people and he was glad for the fire. He dreaded pulling two people out piece by piece. As I recall, they were from Ohio.

Boswell:

When I lived north of Yellowstone Park, a 4 x 4 pickup was great. So much snow and so few plows. Not so good on the ice that we get. Although, the worst ice that I remember was in Idaho back in the late to middle 60's. It was about 3 in of perfectly clear ice. It took me [in a two seat sports car] about 3 h to drive from Pocatello to Idaho Falls. No chains and just regular radials. You couldn't stop, you just went slow and drove around the jack-knifed trucks. I don't want to repeat that experience.

Cheers,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), February 03, 2001.

sumer, you know to watch for black ice on s'rain days on bridges and overpasses. Probably your blood sugar levels were low that day. 8-p

Z, I wouldn't call it poor design, rather "rear stability challenged." Pat's right. About 50-60 pounds takes care of the problem, and it's fine on just wet roads. It's the combination of high wind and ice that leads me to load a tad more weight in the back. If I lived in heavy snow country, I'd have a pickup, and I agree with Unk about the Ford F-150. Fine truck! But I wouldn't want to park it downtown where I work. No room.

Secret: on REALLY bad days, I work from home.

-- kb (kb8um8@yahoo.com), February 03, 2001.

There are many tradeoffs in selecting a vehicle: cost, speed, acceleration, handling, fuel efficiency, style, carrying capacity, comfort, crashworthiness, maintainability, etc, etc. No one car can ever excel in all. That's what makes a market.

Trivia: what form of transportation is the most energy efficient (least calories/mile)? Walking? No. Motorscooter? No. Bicycle? YES

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), February 03, 2001.

Lars, I ride a bicycle to work, just not in February.

-- kb (kb8um8@yahoo.com), February 03, 2001.

I saw this thread and thought I would contribute some Canadian perspective - given that the winter up here is a tad longer than most of you experience.

I'm not sold on SUVs being, per se, safer than a decent passenger car (I will admit that the Geo Metro is a toaster on wheels...my mum owned one a few years ago).

SUVs are much more unstable in any unexpected manoevre; in short they roll much more easily than cars or vans.

SUVs have a design that makes them good to be in if you hit something that "gives" (i.e. another vehicle), but they are crappy if they hit an ummoveable object (tree, rock face, wall etc.). The reason for this is that they have a much more rigid chassis than a car and this is fine when you hit something that can absorb your force. But when you hit something that does not yield, all that force is reflected back onto the vehicle...with catastrophic results.

SUVs are in my personal experience more likely to be driven by people who drive as if the laws of physics do not apply to them. I agree that 4WD will get you going more easily than 2WD, but it sure as hell won't help you once you lock 'em up on ice. Many times, and I mean many, times I have been driving in snowstorms on the freeways and highways around Toronto and southern Ontario and seen SUVs go whizzing by me in the fast lane (I drive a Chevy Venture van)....and then 5 or 10 kilometers ahead I see them spun out in the ditch. (What's that German word.....schadenfreud?)

One interesting difference between the States and Canada is the rate of ownership of SUVs and Mini-Vans. In the US about 15% of new vehicles sold are SUVs, and the rate for Mini-Vans is about 7%. In Canada the figures are almost exactly reversed (sorry, I don't have a source to cite but I think the figures apply to 1999).

You might think that up here in the Great White North we'd be more into SUVs, but you'd be wrong. The conventional wisdom is that we are just too damned practical: SUVs are more expensive than vans, they pollute more (lower gas mileage) and they don't carry as many passengers as vans. Just those boring Canadians again......(grin)

Regards

JC

-- Johnny Canuck (j_canuck@hotmail.com), February 03, 2001.

Small cars are fun to drive, but not as safe. I've been in a couple of good accidents over the years, and the only time I was really injured was in a Honda CRX. If I was in the same accident today in my new car, I think I would walk away.

I've always liked "larger" cars. I had an '81 Grand Prix and an '87 Monte Carlo before the Honda. The only reason I bought the Honda was the fact that a good friend needed to sell it, and I was looking for ANY car at the time.

I do like my new 2000 Dodge Intrepid R/T. Got a great "year end" deal, $2000 off, free extended warrenty, and the best part, 0% financing! It's about the same size as the Grand Prix and Monte Carlo, but much quicker. The Monte Carlo had a 4.3 V-6, and the Dodge is only a 3.5, but it blows the Chevy away! And it stops quick, 4- wheel anti-lock discs, and 17" fat Michelin tires.

It's rated at 18/26 MPG, which isn't too bad for a "large" car. Also meets California emissions.

Now if I could only find a better deal on the insurance...

<:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), February 04, 2001.

Well, I got an extra two pennies in my pocket this morning, so let me toss 'em into this pot. I drive 100 miles a day to work and back on two-lane northern New England roads. all kinds of weather, snow, ice, rain, sun, tourists, teenagers rushing to get to school on time, you name it. Every time it snows or gets icy, there's two things I can count on -- I'll see at least two or three vehicles off the road on teh commute and they will ALWAYS be 4WD pickups or SUVs. The truth of the matter is, as anyone who's a professional driver will tell you, 4WD sucks big time on ice. The damn things are worthless. 4WD makes the drivers overconfident and on ice they'll lose traction going into a corner lots faster than my front-wheel drive Nissan. I give 'em a wide berth on the road because I know they're gonna lose it.

And the people who drive SUVs -- jeez, they think they own the road and everyone else better clear off and let their highnesses go by cause they're so big and powerful and hey I paid lotsa money for this thing. No thanks. If I want a vehicle that will get me down the road and where I want to go when I want to get there, it's gonna be a front-wheel drive with winter radials. Costs a heluva lot less, too.

-- Driver (Driver@newengland.com), February 04, 2001.

Yup, the Intrepid is front wheel drive. It makes sense to me. You got that big-assed motor, right on top of the drive wheels, sticks to the road like glue.

Traction control is pretty nice too... :)

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahooo.com), February 04, 2001.

Yugos!

-- (Hugo@Rehab.Hospital), February 04, 2001.

YUGO = You Go But You Do Not Come Back.

Glad to hear the Canadian perspective. It doesn't surprise me that the sales figures are reversed. Practicality rules! That's not boring, it's good sense.

Driver, you and me both watch for those SUVs. Soccer moms are the worst, phone in one ear, Starbucks cup in hand, yelling at the kids. Hang up, shut up, and drive! Had a talk with my brother-in-law about that after my sister wrecked their SUV. Twice. Now she carries a 911 only phone under the seat.

Six more wks of winter.

-- (Dis@enfranch.ised), February 04, 2001.

SUV just another acronym for stupidity,... in the large majority of cases....

-- Will (righthere@home.now), February 04, 2001.

Z -- I think you should all be driving SUV's. As you may recall, I live in Minnesota and this winter is entirely too cold. If we're gonna do the global warming thing, let's get on with it. An extra few degrees of average annual temperature would make this a much nicer place. We'll make a killing in the real estate market if and when it happens.

On the other hand, driving on ice and snow all my life, I don't expect to slide off the road (even in my old Honda Civic) and never have. The failure mechanism there is the proverbial "nut behind the wheel."

Interestingly enough (or perhaps not), I don't give a shit about good gas usage. I can walk to my office in 20 minutes. I just can't see paying 20-30K for something that does nothing but drive back and forth.

The aggregate cost of the cars I own has never exceeded the aggregate cost of the computer equipment I own. At least more expensive computers do something more useful to justify the additional cost.

On the other hand, I suspect that if I had to spend a long commute in a car everyday, I'd probably think differently.

-- E.H.Porter (just.wondering@about.it), February 05, 2001.

SUV's are the most worthless overpriced piles of crap to ever hit the road. Many of them are monstrous, taking up more than their share of space on the road, and definitely more than their share of gasoline. They are seldom used for "sport" or "utility" that they were supposedly designed for, and rarely occupied by more than 2 people. Most of the people driving them seem to be more interested in talking on cell phones and drifting into other lanes, making it even harder for others to pass them. Some of them have oversized deisel engines, making them exceedingly stinky and noisy. When they approach normal size vehicles from behind at night their headlights are especially annoying because they are at the same height as the rear view mirror. They are not any safer well-engineered smaller cars. Some of the best safety ratings were awarded to small vehicles like Hondas and Subarus. Of course when a heavier vehicle hits a lighter one, the lighter one is more likely to sustain damage, but that has always been true.

Over several decades of enjoying automotive vehicles I have loved many and disliked few. But all in all I must say the SUV's are the most obnoxious, overbearing, wasteful, useless, oversized piles of crap to ever be driven by self-centered greedy assholes.

-- Andy Rooney (have@nice.day), February 05, 2001.