Banning killer dogs Pit bulls: Unless vicious attack dogs are outlawed, they will continue mauling innocent people.

SunSpot.com Jan 18 2001

BALTIMORE CITY and the metropolitan counties should follow Prince George's County's example and ban pit bulls.

Just a few days ago, a runaway pit bull badly mauled a 7-year-old girl who was visiting her grandmother. Neighbors tried to free the victim but "the dog was dragging her around like a rag doll," the girl's distraught grandmother said.

On Christmas Eve, another pit bull attacked a car driven by a 28-year-old woman in Arnold. It ripped into the tires, clawed the hood and left bite marks all over the car's body.

The pit bull's owner explained his dog simply doesn't like cars.

"I'm getting two more dogs, too," he defiantly told the Annapolis Capital. "I'm going to make those mean. ... I'll have them run all over Arnold."

Let's face it. Pit bulls -- which are often bred to maximize their predisposition toward vicious behavior -- can easily be turned into lethal weapons. Their owners know it, and they often treat aggressively trained dogs as feared status symbols. Why else would they give their dogs names like Killer, Uzi, Homicide and Felony?

Several years ago, when Prince George's experienced a series of horrifying pit bull attacks, county government took action. It declared any pit bull born after Feb. 3, 1997, illegal. Pit bulls, including Staffordshire terriers, that were born before that date could be kept under certain conditions. But their annual licenses cost $50 -- ten times the fee owners pay for licensing an ordinary dog.

Baltimore City and the metropolitan counties should follow Prince George's lead.

Pit bulls are known to be belligerent and unpredictable. Unlike most other dogs, which bite and release, pit bulls bite, hold, grind and shake, inflicting gruesome injury upon their victims. They're killer dogs that should not be kept outside strictly controlled environments.

City Health Commissioner Peter L. Beilenson favors stringent licensing of pit bulls, but that's an unrealistic idea. Dog owners already ignore existing rules and licensing requirements; tougher regulations won't necessarily inspire more compliance.

A total ban -- and enforcement of that ban -- would leave no room for uncertainty.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), January 18, 2001

Answers

I'm not sure that I agree. Yes I am aware of the damage pitbulls can do, we had another attack here just two days ago, a young girl attacked by a pitbull who jumped his fence. But I am against outright bans by my nature, I would rather see jail time for pitbull owners when their dogs attack others. Nothing like the prospect of a year behind bars to make one re-think owning a pitbull.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 19, 2001.

Oh yeah, the girl's father had to beat the dog to death with a baseball bat before it would let go. The asshole living next door who owned it has had one of his other dogs put down by authorities because of an attack, but it doesn't seem to sink into this asshole's head that he is a menace by leaving these dogs outside all day and night. That's why I say throw him in the clink.

Tell ya the truth, if I was that girl's father I would be MIGHTY tempted to visit the asshole and have a heart to heart talk with the dickhead, and I would probably shoot the dogs late at night if my talk was not heeded.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 19, 2001.

Although I believe that pit bulls are inherently viscious (I have known a few that were extremely gentle also) I think their behavior is based on how the owners raise it (any dog). I've known poodles that could rip your arm off and I've got a Doberman that's the sweetest numbskull walking.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), January 19, 2001.

We've had pit bulls, dobermans, german shepherds, chows, crosses of these breeds, and a Yorkie. The Yorkie was an incorrigible biter. She was too little to spank, and I think that's why she never gave it up. The victim was always an adult. The victim always begged me not to "hurt the poor little baby". The little monster knew how to play to the crowd. I miss her.

We do not rely on our dogs for protection. They know this. All they are required to do is provide an alert. On the two occasions when protection was necessary, they did the job without biting. Dogs are territorial, and we've impressed ours with the notion that this territory is OURS.

What people may not realize is that dogs are as prone to mental disturbances and nervous disorders as humans are. A puppy who is obviously disturbed by sudden noises or the presence of strangers will grow up to be more prone to bite out of fear. A "bad-tempered" puppy is likely to be an aggressive adult. No one expects a feral child to eat properly with a fork. Dogs are not naturally obedient without constant training. Training is basically reminding the dog that YOU lead the pack and are in control.

We've put down puppies who showed unusual fear or aggression. That may sound cruel, but we allowed one puppy time to "grow out of it" and nearly lost a child when the puppy was less than six months old. Larger breeds produce larger puppies who are capable of maiming or killing a small child. Even a tiny breed of puppy can take out an eye, and I do not recommend them for households with young children.

Dogs are carnivores by choice. They are pack animals by nature. No one should own a dog without taking full legal responsibility for ensuring the safety of those who come into (lawful) contact with the animal. If you can't fully control your dog under all circumstances, you have created a moral and legal liability.

-- helen's soapbox is worn and faded... (b@r.f), January 19, 2001.

I walked into my garage one morning and a stray pit bull lunged at me from the darkness. I blew his goddamned head off. A buddy of mine had three pit bull that atacked and mauled a little girl at a barbque. I blew all their goddamned heads off too. He didn't have the cajones to do it himself. Now I got a neighbor with two rotweilers that are viscous as hell, and they keep getting out of his fence. Guess what's gonna happen to them?

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), January 21, 2001.

Interesting Nikoli, I would have thought you might be a pit-bull owner yourself.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), January 21, 2001.

You anti-pit bull preachers are a bunch of ignorant morons. Did you ever stop to think that the reason these dogs are killing is because of the inhumane and ignorant treatment they might be receiving? Have you yourself ever owned a pitbull? It is chic to publicize and glorify pitbull attacks. A golden retriever mauling a young child is not as appealing to you "dog dignitaries" as pitbull attacks are, are they? The stereotypes that exist are sickening. Even ignorant people like yourselves should know that you can raise any dog to kill. Do either of you idiots know that the in a test ran by the American Temperment Society, the American Pitbull came in with an 81.7% rating? Did you know that rating is better than the Beagle, Golden Retriever, Collie, and Sheep Dog? No, of course you didn't, because you would rather spread your ignoratn jargon all over the web before checking the facts. Wake up from your disillusioned cocoon, and think before you are diagnosed with diahrrea of the mouth.

-- G (GEMATOS@HOTMAIL.COM), February 26, 2001.

By the way, Nicoli, you must be the king of the idiots. Thank you for making everyone on the page dumber with your posting. Did you sit at home and think of that all by yourself? Somewhere a village is missing their idiot.

-- G (GEMATOS@HOTMAIL.COM), February 26, 2001.

I would rather see jail time for pit bull owners when their dogs attack others.

But that is after the fact, a person has to become harmed or killed to get to that point. Is it acceptable to you if it is one of your kids or grand kids? Or would you rather have the chance of it happening removed so there is no possibility of it happening.

It is chic to publicize and glorify pit bull attacks.

Get a brain, moron, people are not publicizing it because they want to be "chick". I doubt that the price that was paid to be in that position was worth the publicity you claim they crave.

A golden retriever mauling a young child is not as appealing to you "dog dignitaries" as pit bull attacks are, are they?

Appealing? Like people want any dog to attack a child. If Golden Retrievers attacked people, especially children the outcry would be the same.
And Flint...ya just gotta play devil's advocate on every subject don't you?

-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), February 27, 2001.

I would rather see jail time for pit bull owners when their dogs attack others.

But that is after the fact, a person has to become harmed or killed to get to that point. Is it acceptable to you if it is one of your kids or grand kids? Or would you rather have the chance of it happening removed so there is no possibility of it happening.

So should we ban rollerblades too? How about swimming pools? Should bicycles be banned? Or is it acceptable to you that children are killed by these items each year? After all, removing them would ensure that there would be no possibility of that happening!

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), February 27, 2001.

Cherri, Cherri, Cherri. Isn't it better to find the root cause of a problem in order to properly address it, than to knee-jerk react to the results?

As every pet owner worth his salt will tell you, the owner is responsible for the training & subsequent actions of his pets. Psychologically damaged animals aside, who as pointed out by Helen are unpredictable and therefore unsafe, pets require training no matter the breed. Pit Bulls behave as they are trained to behave. Give a look at Pavlov's experiments for some perspective.

Banning a breed is an ignorant reaction to horrible events. Leave emotional outbursts to the bereaved. I expect reason and logic to be cornerstones of my governmental representatives' actions (yes, I'm delusional today).

Unk, careful messing with other people's dogs on your own, man.

Suggestion: Hit the local watering hole and get some folks riled up. A pack of pissed drunks holding the guy's face on asphalt - make sure to scrape his face - with threats of balls being cut off if another person is attacked by his animals, goes a long way. And if a complaint is filed the judge would most likely look at the "rap session" as somewhat justified, doling out a slap on the wrist. My guess is the neighbor will move rather than chance facing the knife.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), February 27, 2001.

Update on the San Francisco killer-dog situation-----

Pul l out his teeth?

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), February 27, 2001.

The only other choice is to ban the kind of people who raise these dogs to be violent, the majority who statistically appear to be males between the age of 15 and 30. You can't order people to get training for their dogs. Also, these dogs have been bred to bring out their violent behavior. It was irresponsible people who did this. The kindest thing would to be to neuter all of them so the breed can not continue. They attack children because they perceive them as vulnerable and weak. There have been dogs that were trained who have attacked. It is like having an alligator living in the neighborhood. They are going to attack, the life of a human being is not an acceptable trade for the rights of a dog.

Do you guys like arguing with me?

-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), February 27, 2001.

"the life of a human being is not an acceptable trade for the rights of a dog."

Wrong! You are a human-chauvinist. You are speaking specie-ism.

-- (Petra@PETA.petulance), February 27, 2001.

Cherri,

1. I don't like arguing with anyone.

2. What does the term personal responsibility mean to you?

3. How does the above italicized term fit into your political & social philosophies?

4. Apologies for my tone in the following comments. I am mystified by your logic and feel a bout of condescension coming on.

Banning a breed of canine because a small percentage of owners train them to attack people and then do not adequately monitor them is ludicrous, IMO. This completely glosses over the CAUSE of the problem - the OWNERS.

Ban pit bulls and suprise, suprise, suprise! These same irresponsible owners will buy legal breeds and train them to attack people. Duh?

Again I ask, why not address the root of the problem?

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), February 27, 2001.

Rich.

What choices are there? We cannot legeslate the behavior of people who train these dogs, that have a predisposition for violence, to act violent.

Yes the owners are the problem. How do you suggest they be made to behave in a manner that insures the safety of others?

Actually I don't know how to prevent this from happening. The life of a victom of one of these dogs is changed forever, if not lost completly. Waiting until an attack to do something is rather like waiting until a drunk driver hurts or kills someone before doing anything about driver's choice to drink and drive. Laws have had an effect on preventing a lot of people's attitude towards drinking and driving, if only the threat of fines and/or jail time is what they weigh when making the choice to drink and drive. There are still people who continue to drink and drive, those who don't care or don't think their driving is impared. But social attitudes have been changed, peer pressure now leans towards not drinking and driving.

Will this work with dog owners? If there are big consequences attached to rearing a dog towards violence, will this make the owner think twice about their actions? My concern is the victoms that are the ones who pay for the actions of the owners. I have also seen news stories of these dogs who have been trained correctly and had the dogs attack people.

-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), February 27, 2001.

How do you suggest they be made to behave in a manner that insures the safety of others?

The government cannot insure the safety of others, Cherri. No individual and no sitting political body can do so. Laws are past to punish people who injure others. They are attempts to prevent such actions from taking place through the institution of consequences for criminal actions after the fact.

The life of a rape victim is changed forever, isn't it? So do we castrate all men? This would certainly drive those rape numbers down, wouldn't it? This policy would insure that very few women will ever be raped. This is an extreme example, I realize, but it is based upon your philosophy of insuring public safety.

Should alcohol be banned so that people won't drive while intoxicated? Or perhaps ban automobiles? No on both counts. Again, hold the perpetrator responsible for crimes committed. In Scandanavia - I believe it's Norway - drunk driving carries an automatic jail term. And we aren't talking a single weekend of work/release program. Perhaps Anita can help me on this one. I'm thinking the initial sentence is a minimum thirty days. Maybe more.

Lastly, I think we all realize the media look for stories and themes which push our buttons, thereby increasing readership/viewers. Read Pit Bull in a headline and all eyes become glued. The breed is a victim (there's that word again) of bad press. And victimized by those scumbags who view dogs as weapons. These people are drawn to the breed for obvious anatomical reasons. It is NOT the fault of the breed!

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), February 27, 2001.

It is NOT the fault of the breed!

Agreed! Since dogs are pack animals, it's the owner's responsibility to become "Alpha" and maintain control over its minions. This requires dedication and commitment to training and nurturing but in this fast-food society too few people take the time to do what's right. It's easier to blame the dog for bad behavior than themselves.

-- woof (woof@dog.com), February 27, 2001.

I'm not very doggie literate so take this for what it's worth but it seems common sense to me that some breeds are more aggressive precisely because they were bred to be that way.

What am I missing here? Retrievers were bred to retrieve, hounds were bred to track, terriers were bred to hunt rats or ferrets, etc, etc. Pit bulls and some other breeds were bred to fight. Right?

-- Lars (larguy@yahoo.com), February 27, 2001.

It's not as simple as that. If you put an adult, city-raised Collie dog (bred for herding) into a sheep pasture, he would not automatically know what to do. He would be more adept at it when you began to teach him, but it is far from an inbred trait. Collies, among other dogs, have been used for herding for centuries.

Pitbulls and other "agressive" breeds, assuming they aren't wild, are raised around humans their whole lives. They learn very early that humans are bigger than them, louder than them, and dispense food and affection. They must overcome all this to attack. A dog from such a breed might be more likely to overcome this, but it's not an inborn trait anymore than shepherding is for Collies.

I suspect that many dog attacks have abuse or teasing behind them. For instance, there was a case in Michigan recently where a Chow bit a paperboy on the butt. It turns out the paperboy had walked ten feet into the house (uninvited) and dropped a large Sunday paper next to the dog's head. The dog immediately woke and bit the invader. The boy ended up needing five stitches. My sympathies, frankly, are with the dog, because if I found myself in the same situation (awakened by a sudden noise to find a stranger in my house) I'd likely get pretty damn agressive too!

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), February 27, 2001.

Wouldn't we be better off,statistically,to ban killer humans?

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), February 28, 2001.

the bottom line is, certain breeds were bred with natural characteristics for fighting/aggression. yes a little dog can be a little monster and a pit bull can be a big sweetie, BUT the FACTS ARE THAT CERTAIN BREEDS WERE BRED FOR AGGRESSION/FIGHTING. their PHYSICAL, GENETIC, and MENTAL MAKEUP makes them more likely to become aggressive when teased and abused, and their PHYSICAL CHARACTERISTICS make them more likely to inflict serious injury, than say, an angry pug or chihuahua. (DUH!!!!!!!!!!)

-- rebtex (billreb@onr.com), March 02, 2001.

I have a golden and 2 pitbulls all three are trained and are reliable on and off lead. it is up to owners to train their animals to behave - animals cannot be held for their actions - they basically only respond to stimuli. I have a family of 8 - 6 kids - and the pit bulls ahve proven themselves as fierce protectors of our property and of us while on walks but are incredible gentile and docile and take abuse form the youngest children without a flinch. I wouldnt trade my dogs for anything - ban irresponsible breeders of pit bulls - ones who sell just 4 profit - those pups tend to have genetic problems and turn aggressive because of inbreeding. As well backyard breeders will sell to anyone 4 a cheap price - thus giving these dogs to people who just want them to fight.

-- niki (kingmonty@hotmail.com), March 08, 2001.

Dog attack robs girl of her smile

LINK

Racine 8-year-old in serious condition after she was mauled by 3 Rottweilers

By NAHAL TOOSI of the Journal Sentinel staff Last Updated: March 3, 2001

Even after nine hours of surgery and 200 stitches in her face, the Racine girl attacked last weekend by two Rottweilers is not likely to be able to truly smile ever again.

The condition of the 8-year-old, who is being identified only as Jamie Irene, was upgraded Thursday to serious at Children's Hospital of Wisconsin in Wauwatosa. More than 30 surgeons and nurses tried to reconstruct her face and expect she will keep her hearing and sight despite the mauling of her eye and ear, her uncle said. But nerve damage likely will cause the right side of her face to droop.

"Her smile was beautiful," said her uncle, Patrick Miles, also of Racine.

Jamie Irene is not the first child to suffer from the teeth of a Rottweiler. And if more owners do not properly breed and train the big dogs, enthusiasts say, she won't be the last.

"It does not surprise me that a powerful breed like a Rottweiler could become involved in a situation like this," said Marylou Stott, who owns two Rottweilers and is secretary of Greater Milwaukee's Badger State Rottweiler Fanciers.

"This is the same kind of story, over and over again. Our hearts are just bleeding because of this."

The attack on Jamie Irene, and numerous others like it across the country, infuriate Rottweiler lovers as much as anyone else. And statistics indicate there are lots of Rottweiler lovers.

Interest in the breed grew in the late 1980s, and by the mid- 1990s, "Rotts" were the second-most popular registered dog breed in the United States, according to the American Kennel Club.

Unfortunately, the surge in puppy love was coupled with a rise in injuries and deaths.

Between 1991 and 1998, Rottweilers were involved in 33 fatal attacks on humans, more than any other dog in that period, including the pit bull, according to the American Veterinary Medical Association.

"Most of the victims of dog bites are children," said Gail Golab, assistant director of education and research at the American Veterinary Medical Association.

The attack on Jamie Irene occurred in the 2200 block of S. 11th St. at the home of a family friend who owns three Rottweilers, including the two dogs suspected in the mauling.

The families had gone shopping for a Communion dress for Jamie Irene and left the girl inside the house for a few minutes around 6 p.m. while they unloaded packages outside, Miles said. In that interim, the three Rottweilers broke out of their pen in a nearby room and the two younger dogs attacked the 8-year-old, who had known them from the time they were puppies, he added.

Jamie Irene has tried to talk since the incident but cannot because her jaw is broken. Her family, meanwhile, has announced a trust fund and is asking for prayers.

The three dogs have been quarantined at the Milwaukee Area Domestic Animal Control Commission, 3839 W. Burnham St.

Pit bulls and Rottweilers outrank other dogs in bitings in the Milwaukee area, said Len Selkurt, executive director of the animal control commission.

None of the three Rottweilers under suspicion in Jamie Irene's case is neutered, Selkurt said. The two younger dogs, a male and female 15 months old, are restless, and the former is behaving very aggressively, Selkurt said.

To contribute to the Jamie Irene Trust Fund, contact any M&I Marshall and Ilsley Bank in Wisconsin.

Appeared in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel on March 4, 2001.

-- (relevant@news.story), March 08, 2001.

I have 2 great pit bulls. You are all wrong. They are raised up wrong so they turn mean just like any other dog would if they are miss treated. And no they dont have lock jaws. They are a powerfull dog but in the right hands they will do great. The objest is to socialize them at a early stage with people and esspecially with animals. It is the best breed out there. IF IT AINT A PIT IT AINT SHIT!!!!

-- Fred (xxxpeachy7xxx@aol.com), April 14, 2001.

Fred,

I agree with you regarding the importance of the socialization of young puppies. If owners properly socialized their dogs while they were young I would guess that 99% of dog problems would be eliminated. Get your pup out into the world and around other dogs and especially around young children, do it early and do it often.

But I gotta disagree about the pit/shit statement. This is of course a subjective opinion, but I think the best all around breed is a Dalmatian, followed closely by Golden Retrievers. Dals are great dogs, but they need to be socialized just as badly as Pits do in order to blunt their aggressive behavior. But conversely, that inborn aggressive nature is a plus should you ever need the dog for protection, since this is what the breed’s original purpose was, the protection of the upper classes from the riff-raff. It takes a firm hand to master a high energy Dal, but it is well worth the effort. Plus the spots are just too damn cool!

Goldens are of course naturally very gentle animals, but they are perhaps not the best breed for protection, though your mileage many vary depending on the animal. They are a fantastic breed for folks with young children. This is all just my HO, of course, but I do own both breeds and have found this to be true for me.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), April 14, 2001.

Do these look like vicious dogs to you?

-- (cin@cin.cin), April 14, 2001.

-- grumble grumble (cin@cin.cin), April 14, 2001.

-- once more and then im calling it quits (cin@cin.cin), April 14, 2001.

-- dayum (gina@gina.gina), April 14, 2001.

Haven't heard of "canine spongiform encephalophy" yet. We oughta breed em and throw em into the hot-dog hopper down at Farmer John's, just like the Viet Cong do.

-- And (all@cats.withem), April 15, 2001.

About a month ago, I was thinking of getting another dog, more for protection than anything else. The beagle wasn't cutting it. I struggled with this for a while, not knowing what to do.

A beautiful dog(/pup) showed itself to me, and walked into my heart. At first I thought it was a mutt, but I was surprised. I became the owner of a Belgian Malinois. A great working dog.

She is a wonderful pet, and loves my son and all his friends. If I am easy around adults, she will wag her tail. If I'm a little nervous, she'll do a grand job.

My husband called me from a base somewhere a couple states north of me, and told me one of the MP's there came around the corner of a building with a Malinois. He chatted with him about the beautiful beast, but didn't dare put his hand out.

Could this dog be a killer? You bet. Is she trained to be a killer, no. Is she a good family dog? Yes. Is she good protection? You bet.

I've seen pit bulls that scared the crap out of me, and I've seen some that licked my face almost raw. I do believe it is how the dog is raised.

-- (Sheeple@Greener.Pastures), April 15, 2001.

Sheeple@Greener.Pastures), April 15, 2001.

One more try to show you a picture of a working dog that is my little puppy. (Actually not so little)

-- (Sheeple@Greener.Pastures), April 15, 2001.

How odd to find this thread still active today.

Yesterday two of our younger children began to scream outside. Someone had pulled into our property and shoved two large, female pitbulls out of their car before speeding away.

The dogs looked like registered animals. They were clean and well-fed. They were nervous. They were not at that particular moment identified as child-killing monsters. Within three or four minutes of their arrival, they were killing our chickens.

Our children continued to scream and began running. The dogs ignored the children in favor of racing in the direction of the mule before spotting the goats. Our crippled Laura Goat was within easy reach when they turned back toward our frantic orders to stop. If they had arrived after starving for a couple of days, they may not have stopped.

We had no facilities for holding them. We live outside the area of the closest pound, and we are not allowed to take animals there. The pound was closed anyway. We considered briefly that we should lure them into the truck and take them down the road -- and considered what would happen to our neighbors and their children and their livestock if we did that. I called a neighbor to ask if they could help, and they could not. The veterinarian was closed.

They died less than ten minutes after their owner slammed the car door behind them. We felt we had no choice. We had no time to think of another way to handle them.

It didn't matter that they were pitbulls. We had no way contain any dog bent on running down our livestock. We would have put them down even if they had been poodles.

We have no way to track down the owner. We considered mounting the dogs' heads on stakes near the spot where they were dumped in case the owner cruised back to check on them. That was anger talking, and the neighbors would not appreciate it. Our children were upset enough.

-- helen (blood@the.gate), April 15, 2001.

Helen,

I think you did the right thing!

-- (Sheeple@Greener.Pastures), April 15, 2001.

Holy cow what a shitty day helen! I hope you have lots of better ones soon!

I would like to see quite a few people "put down" myself, starting with the ones who abandon dogs to an uncertain fate.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), April 15, 2001.

Unk,

Agreed on putting down the people that dump dogs. I got my dog from work, as someone had dumped her there. She was starved, and way under weight (not anymore!)

Someone at work had called the pound, as they didn't want her to get run over during rush hour. I beat the pound in getting her. I had seen how she reacted around people, and especially children, so I knew I had gotten a good one.

-- (Sheeple@Greener.Pastures), April 15, 2001.

I'm not so sure I agree with much of what has been posted on this thread. Dogs of ANY breed can be VERY territorial. Socialization as puppies helps, but it still doesn't take away the instincts. One of my dogs [combination Doberman/pitbull/Rottweiler] loved anyone he'd met at OUR home before he was six months old. Anyone introduced after that was fair game.

The oversized Dobe we bought was [apparently] a product of "junk- yard" dogs. He was beautiful, but he never licked, never wagged that little stub of a tail. He expressed his love in other ways, but there was just something about him that demonstrated he felt HE was Alpha despite anything.

The mixed Dobe got into more trouble, and we hired a dog trainer to teach us how to keep him from killing the young man that mowed the lawn next-door. BOTH the mixed Dobe and the purebred bit the trainer on several occasions, but he persevered. We had the young man who mowed the lawn come to a training session once and neither the mixed Dobe nor the purebred questioned his entering our home. When he tried to LEAVE, however, BOTH dogs stood at attention, ready to attack.

When there was no other threat to alpha status, these two dogs fought amongst themselves. Our home became a fortress. We had the rod-iron gates on the front windows so they wouldn't kill the mailman. We had the rod-iron gates separating rooms without doors so they wouldn't kill each other. On the rare occasions when one of us came home and let one dog out into the backyard and the other came home and didn't notice and let the OTHER dog out into the backyard, we spent HOURS trying to separate them, and MORE hours spent at the Vet getting them stitched up.

THEN came kids. Sheeple, you're fortunate to have had kids BEFORE you had a dog [of ANY breed]. Kids and their friends are seen as alpha if they came first. They're not at all seen as alpha if the dog (s) came first. We kept the mixed Dobe away from the kids because he was the one who didn't accept anyone he'd not known before he was six months old. The purebred Dobe had only bitten the son of a friend who kept him while we were on vacation, and we assumed that the child had taunted him because he'd NEVER bitten anyone except the dog trainer before that.

Uh-huh. He LUNGED on my daughter when she walked into the room carrying a chicken-leg in her hand. He'd had ENOUGH of her stumbling about, walking like a "monster". He knew HE was alpha and SHE needed to be put in her place.

I didn't even blink an eye when my husband at the time took him out onto the porch and put a bullet between his eyes. I was busy talking to the emergency room and throwing a blanket around my child to take her in. The folks at the emergency room wouldn't touch her because this was a girl and this was her FACE! They sent us to Children's Memorial where we waited for a plastic surgeon to treat her.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), April 15, 2001.

I have to disagree with the person who said it's all in the training. I raise australian shepherds and they start herding chickens and kids as soon as they are able to run. With this breed it is instinctive, no training required for them to do what they naturally do. Their other name is Blue heelers. They will nip cows and sheep in the back of the ankle to move them where they want them. This starts in Very early puppyhood. (Chickens newly hatched from the incubator scratch and walk backwards like thier adult counterparts, it is imprinted in them)

-- Marg (aussie@heaven.com), April 15, 2001.

Helen you fucking heartless bitch

-- (cin@cin.cin), April 15, 2001.

Cin,

What should she have done? Let those dogs kill her livestock, then turn on her children?

I've got to wonder if you've ever seen a dog kill.

-- (Sheeple@Greener.Pastures), April 15, 2001.

Our dog is a small collie mix, elderly, and gentle. This little dog got between the pit bulls and the child in front. She held her head down in silence and waited for the attack. She did not run away even though both dogs were bigger, younger, and stronger than she was. Unfortunately there were two children to protect and two pit bull dogs to protect them from. While she faced down one, another headed for the other child. When I intervened with that dog, our own dog attempted to intervene on my behalf. The first child our dog had been guarding ran to guard her goose, who was guarding her nest. One pit followed and ran full into a flock of our chickens. My beloved tried to intervene between this dog and the child and our chickens. Our dog then got between the second pit and the second child, who was still screaming.

As I said, Cin, there was no time for an elegant solution. One dog died instantly. The other was wounded. This one ran at our children. Our children stood between their little collie and this dog. My beloved was trying to follow up and put the dog down as quickly and humanely as possible under the circumstances. I didn't know if he could see the kids and didn't know if the kids were going to bolt again, so I went into his line of fire yelling that he must not shoot. (There's an interesting feeling associated with doing that Cin, you oughta try it someday.)

There we were, Cin, each of us trying to protect the others. The entire episode from the slamming of the car door to the last breath of the second dog lasted less than ten minutes. It may have lasted less than five minutes. My beloved and I wanted to throw up, but we had to calm the kids and deal with the bodies of the dogs.

Our children had prepared for a year for a religious ceremony that was to take place that day. We were late. I'd really like to thank our dog-dumping friend for making this special day totally unforgettable.

Forgive me, Cin, for being afraid to bodily restrain TWO 55 pound pit bulls with my bare hands. For all I knew these dogs had been dumped for biting someone. They were not wearing rabies vaccination tags. It wasn't their fault their jaws were wider than my outspread hand or that they're bred with crushing jaw strength. It was my fault for recognizing that and being afraid of it, wasn't it? It's my fault that I prioritize my own family and my own animals ahead of dogs dumped at my door -- I would have intervened on YOUR behalf because you are human, and in my priorities a human comes before a dog.

Perhaps things would have been different if the owner of the dogs had contacted a local veterinarian or the city pound, or placed an advertisment in the newspaper for his or her dogs. If the owner of the dogs had given us a few minutes warning that we were about to become responsible for his or her animals, we might have been able to lock our children inside the house and confine all of our free-range animals. We might have been waiting for that dog owner with a camera to get a license plate number for evidence. We might have had time to get a county law enforcement officer out there to decide what to do with the dogs.

And Cin, if we hadn't been home at the time, we would have lost every last animal on our place. It was a holiday weekend, and our dog-dumper didn't knock on our door to see if we were home. If we had been working in the fields, we might have lost our children.

Cruel and heartless? I'm sure someone was.

-- helen (talking@C.in), April 16, 2001.

pit bulls are the best dogs and they are not nautraly mean they have to be treated mean to get mean they are just like any other dog even the golden retreiver so fuck all the people that think that they are bad dogs.

-- ben mauk (benny_mauk@hotmail.com), April 25, 2001.

Another Badass dog is the Great Dane, they are fucking tall and one of the biggest dogs in the world. They are one of the most sporting dogs besides blueheeler. Pit bulls are cool dogs to, They are Known for their ability to have strong muscular bodys, and the quickness of a cheeta!

-- Tyler Brooks (Brookst@knoxville.k12.ia), April 25, 2001.

You have to understand. To cin, children are only important while they are still in the womb. Once they're born, they're just dog food.

-- (mmm@yum.tasty), April 25, 2001.

One of the most mild-mannered people I know owns two Rottweilers. He's trained them well. However, the dogs are still agressive and dangerous. I don't care what people say about training, a dog bred for fighting and then trained to hold back will not hold back forever.

I'm in favor of mandatory muzzle laws for these types of dogs.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), April 25, 2001.

I dont believe cin wrote that, too out of character for her.

Helen, I wouldnt dare try to restrain those pit bulls.

Most insurance policies are now excluding ALL pits, and other vicious canines.

You used to get one bite, allowable, now its NOTTA.

-- sumer (shh@aol.con), April 25, 2001.

cin did too write that. cin is a nutcase about animals. she even looks like one! (a frog)


-- (shit about @to hit.fan), April 25, 2001.

Ours had a problem with our Chows, but once the insurance agent met them, saw that we had a large, well-fenced backyard, and talked to our vet and our obedience instructor, we had no more problem.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 25, 2001.

Our dogs haven't bitten anyone, are obedience-trained, and won't get the opportunity to in the first place, BTW. They're not labs, but they aren't vicious animals either.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), April 25, 2001.

Someone turned two Rott pups loose in the yard of my daycare provider. Prolly thought the pups would enjoy playing with the kids. Those pups aren't there now...

-- helen (he@ache.really), April 25, 2001.

Chows oh yeah, friend of our's his Chow ate (literally) the neighbor's cat, in front of the kids :-) ewwwww!!!

-- sumer (shh@aol.con), April 25, 2001.

April 25, 2001 St Louis Post Dispatch

Man who killed dog is ordered to read "Lassie"

GASTONIA, N.C. - A man who pleaded guilty to skinning and beheading a dog was sentenced to three years' probation and ordered to read the "Lassie" books.

Jason Vincent Revels, 19, was charged with felony animal cruelty in the death of his mother's mixed pit bull in November. He was not eligible for jail time under state sentencing rules.

At a hearing Monday, Revels said he blacked out and did not remember killing the dog. Superior Court Judge Claude Sitton said he did not believe the teen and ordered him to read the books.

Revels, who has prior convictions for assault with a deadly weapon and marijuana possession, told police he killed the dog because his mother told him to get rid of it.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), April 25, 2001.

And all he got was probation?

Sick f'in people

Gee helen, did you kill the puppies too?

-- (cin@cin.cin), April 25, 2001.

Of course, cin would let the pups eat the small children so they could become big and strong and eat more small children. After all, as far as cin is concerned, unborn fetuses are God's miraculous creation, but once they're born, babies are useful only as dog food.

-- (mmm@yum.tasty), April 25, 2001.

you are mental

(like in a bad way yknow)

-- (cin@cin.cin), April 25, 2001.

I'm not the one that's so upset with helen because she had the nerve to not let her children be used as dog food. Apparently, you would rather see helen's children killed than see any harm come to those poor defenseless doggies. But hey, it's not like her kids are unborn babies or anything.

-- (mmm@yum.tasty), April 25, 2001.

helen say that her children were not in imminent danger, and the dogs stopped when they were yelled to. Yet helen seemed to think her only choice was to kill the dogs. These confused and probably scared dogs were abanoned by the people they trusted, and then shot by trigger happy strangers. Talk about a bad f-ing day.

When your first solution to a problem leads you to killing to be rid of it, I think you have a real problem. And I don't think it's right to kill something only because you are afraid of it or dont trust it. I don't think helen was justified in killing those dogs.

-- (cin@cin.cin), April 25, 2001.

Cin -- kill the rott pups? MOI? Heavens no. No, what happened was the people who put the pups in the daycare yard got a notice from their landlord to vacate their home within 72 hours. Now they may be homeless, but no one killed the pups to my knowledge. These people didn't vaccinate or properly feed the pups either. How much do you want to bet they ending up dumping the pups to starve to death?

As for the pit bulls...the dogs didn't come when called. They stopped briefly. Laura Goat was only a few feet away from them, and the only reason they didn't kill her was because they didn't SEE her. Laura Goat is...well...a goat. That makes her a animal and therefore worthy of protection, doesn't it? The chickens are free-range, Cin. That means they have no restrictions on where they go. I shoo them out of the kitchen because they get under my feet, but they are otherwise unrestricted and as happy-looking as chickens can be. They are animals worthy of protection, no? The mule was likewise unprotected. How many stitches should we have signed up the mule for? And was our own dog deserving of consideration? This dog was willing to die for our kids, and on previous occasion she remained with a lost child in the woods in spite of being called within her hearing.

Cin, there are occasions where you have to make unpleasant choices. As I pointed out, if we had been given proper notice, things would have been different. Unfortunately, being dumb country folk of limited financial and intellectual resources, we needed more than a few minutes to think about it.

I would like to see footage of you wrestling barehanded with two strange pit bulls in the defense of your own pet sometime. In the meantime, keep your damn animals off my place.

-- helen (c@ll.me.cruella), April 25, 2001.

Match point - Helen

Game - Helen

-- (ref@ref.eree), April 26, 2001.

***Those pups aren't there now...***

Hello helen?! Did you just want people to assume that you killed the pups? If not, why would you make such a statement

-- (cin@cin.cin), April 26, 2001.

It appeared to be a statement of fact. Obviously, she didn't think that anyone was so amazingly stupid as to assume that she killed them. She's probably not familiar with your complete lack of reading comprehension coupled with your well-established coldhearted and abusive demeanor.

-- (cin@is.a.moron), April 26, 2001.

All dogs from the Chihuahua to the Great Dane came from the wolf shall we just ban all dogs to ensure the safety of children better yet lets ban cars since thet kill more children on a daily basis,lets take away rollerblades and bicycles.Accidents happen,to ban a breed is ignorant since the owners of potential dangerous dogs will only buy other breeds such as the Rottweiler if they are banned.Stiffer penalties for the owners allowing dogs to roam would be a better solution since they obviously do not care about the animals in the first place since a dog can get hit by a car while roaming.I own several American Pitbull Terriers and know first hand that they are not bad dogs.I invite anyone that feels pitbulls should be banned to come over and I will prove they are great animals that naturally love children.Better yet come to a dog show with me so that you can witness many pitbulls behaving wonderfully and see for youself that they behave better than most breeds at a show!If you want to see first hand the truth then come and get it or just sit around the house,live on your computer and talk to equally ignorant folks and stay blinded,your choice.Ill choose to seek the truth and the truth is that The American Pitbull Terrier is not a bad dog!They are great family members!I can prove it!

-- Windy (pitdogz@home.com), May 24, 2001.

This is the true "thread that will not die". Arf.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), May 24, 2001.

Bowsy wowsy

-- bnh (bump@de.hump), May 25, 2001.

But what does this have to do with why I can't stop thinking about Tarzan's dick?

-- Maria (obse@ssed.com), May 25, 2001.

I feel that any dog can be made into a bad dog. It should not be about banning a specific breed- it should be about "OWNERSHIP EDUCATION". Some people should not own "ANY DOG" not just a American Pit Bull Terrier, because they would make them mean and aggressive. We should enforce this and not a breed. I have owned the American Pit Bull Terrier for over 10 years, and my husband has had them for over 20 years. We have 2 small kids 6 & 8 and never have they tried to snip or bite them. I will tell you that our first dog in our yard is a Golden Retv. because I had a "PIT BULL FEAR" and let me tell you how wrong I was. Like any breed it takes good ownership and training with any dog. I would not trade my breed for anything else. Most people who have never owned this breed feel as most of you do on this board, but like anything it is understand and knowledge before you make judgment calls. Also just for you information, do you know that in 80% of the Animal Control intakes do not have the breeds right at all. They assume that because a dog has a big head it is a American Pit Bull Terrier and list it as such..when in fact 1 out of 10 dogs actually do not have any American Pit Bull Terrier in them at all. Email me if you would like the statistics.

-- Denise Arceo (bullrockknnl@yahoo.com), May 29, 2001.

Maria please see post for you... Ya got back girl.

-- come on honey (fake@adresssssssss.com), May 30, 2001.

I am a proud owner of one American Pit Bull Terrier, Harvey. Harvey has a "brother", Foster a Jack Russell. It's sad that many times the pit bull reputation precedes many nice dogs. So many times as I'm out with the both of them, most people want to pet Foster. Foster, unfortunately, is the agressive one of the two. It's really Harvey that's the sweet, lovable guy not the cute innocent looking Jack Russell. Foster dominates Harvey daily. Harvey has both an obedience and conformation titles as well as a Canine Good Citizen.

Harvey attends a doggie daycare and plays nicely with other dogs. No he isn't a young pup, he's now 2 years old. At first we weren't going to be allowed at the daycare but I brought him in anyway and paid for his temperment evaluation, confident he would pass with flying colors. This would have been another missed opportunity if I wasn't so persistent.

Pit Bulls were once highly regarded in our community. The most decorated dog in 1st World War was Stubby, an American Pit Bull Terrier. This mean "vicious breed" was also selected to be a co-star in the Rascals series because of their kind disposition towards people and in this case, unruly spoiled children. I think most of us have heard of "Petey".

To support a breed ban is wrong. It's not the dog, it's the owner who's responsible.

-- Elvie (harvster@uswest.com), May 30, 2001.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=004RYl

-- Brenda (apbt4info@socal.rr.com), May 30, 2001.

It is amazing to me, how much fear can rise out of ignorance. I ask you all to remember a time when Dobermans were in much the same position as the Pitbulls are now. Now look to the future if all pitbulls are banned. Will the bad dog owners (the people who should never own any pet to begin with) stop making dogs agressive if there are no more pitbulls to buy? No way. They will simply find another breed to violate. How will you feel when it is your breed that is being banned? This is a vicious cycle that will not stop once it has started rolling. Pretty soon there will not be any dogs at all.

I am the proud owner of an American Pit Bull Terrier. I have been in the breed since 1996 and yes, I have put down a dog due to a questionable temperment. You have to be responsible to own this breed, or ANY breed for that matter. My male is 3 years old, I have handled him to his UKC championship, he is a Canine Good Citizen, and we are working towards an obedience title next. He has changed many minds about this breed.

It is amazing to me, however, the people that can not correctly identify this breed. And it is scary, because those are the people who are voting on the breed bans! Those are the people making the reports after dog attacks.

If you really want to know, do your research.

-- Shana (starfroggie@hotmail.com), May 30, 2001.

From the San Francisco Bay area: ~ http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi? f=/c/a/2001/06/21/MN108282.DTL

"Pit bulls' owner defends his actions He fled mauling, assumed boy died

Joe Garofoli, Chuck Squatriglia, Chronicle Staff Writers Thursday, June 21, 2001 The owner of three pit bull terriers that savagely mauled a Richmond boy said yesterday that he fled in a panic with his dogs after the attack because he assumed the boy was dead.

In a jailhouse interview, Benjamin Moore said he yelled to passers- by, "There's a dead boy here," after spotting 10-year-old Shawn Jones lying motionless on his back Monday night, his face and neck bloodied by the dogs. So hasty was his flight that he did not even call 911.

His admission stunned police and the boy's family, who chastised Moore, a home health care worker, for thinking of his dogs before the child. Shawn remained in critical condition last night..." ~ http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi? file=/chronicle/archive/2001/06/21/MN99370.DTL

"SAN FRANCISCO Owner of attacked dog shoots, kills pit bull

Thursday, June 21, 2001 A dog fight involving a pit bull terrier and a German shepherd ended yesterday when a San Francisco man shot and killed the pit bull after 25 whacks with a wooden plank weren't enough.

Randall Ellison told police he was working in his garage on Mississippi Street at 25th Street around 7 a.m., with his German shepherd, Jake, nearby.

Ellison, 47, said the pit bull wandered into the garage and attacked his dog.

Police Inspector Dominic Celaya said Ellison grabbed a 2-by-4 wood plank and hit the pit bull repeatedly, to no avail.

Ellison then got a .38-caliber pistol and killed the dog, Celaya said.

The German shepherd was treated by a veterinarian for its wounds, which were not life-threatening, Celaya said."

-- flora (***@__._), June 21, 2001.

What is it about San Francisco and pit bulls?? Seems most all the 'famous' attacks have come out of San Fran.

Interesting.....

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), June 21, 2001.

Oopsie - sorry about the formatting.

The poor kid in the top story is now having to go through rabies treaments on top of everyting else, because the dogs' owner claims to turned the dogs loose in different locations around the town. The feeling is that they are actually being harbored somewhere.

The child was riding a bike that his parents had just given him for being an honor student, when he was attacked by the three dogs.

-- flora (***@__._), June 21, 2001.

Deano, as most people know this is all the fault of the gay community that infests every corner of ‘The City’. Homosexuals put out a unique body odor that Pit Bulls and some species of birds find to be overly offensive, driving them into a meat eating frenzy. To date, only 1 isolated instance of enraged crow attacks has been documented.

This was the conclusion that researchers at the University of California/Davis, School of Animal Behavior came to after an exhaustive 6-year study. They have applied for further federal grant funding for studies on the effects of ‘Twinkies and The Gay Male’.

-- Little (known@facts.com), June 21, 2001.

Little

I kinda thought that might be the case......;-)

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), June 21, 2001.

All dog-show people should rent "best of show". It was on PPV night before last, too funny.

-- (see@it.), July 06, 2001.

I was sorry to read about Anita's daughter being bitten. I am sure they wish now that they had gotten rid of those dangerous dogs, their dogs had a history of aggressive behavior. This is partially why dogs get bad reputations, the bad ones are allowed to live long enough to make the newspaper!

-- ross (jonkon@ticon.net), July 25, 2001.

A breed of Dog is not inherently "evil" or "bad". If you raise a child with love, affection, and attention they will flourish to become responsible "good" people. That is the same with all dogs... No matter what the breed. A dog learns from his parent(master) how to act in any given situation. I have an 80# pitbull, a 130# Dane, and a coyote/shepard mix. They are sweet well-behaved dogs because that is how they were raised. It's wrong to blame a dog for it's "bad" actions, they are really a manifestation of their owners. Blame the owner, not the dog/breed!!

-- Ronald bond (r_w_bond@yahoo.com), August 05, 2001.

How much is that doggie in the window?

http://news.excite.com/news/r/010805/08/odd-dog-dc

'Dog-O-War' Pups, Progeny of Killer Dog, for Sale

Updated: Sun, Aug 05 8:38 AM EDT

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - How much is that doggie in the window? If it's a descendant of the San Francisco attack dog that went wild and mauled a young woman to death in her own apartment building, it will cost $1,200.

So-called "Dog-O-War" puppies, described as the grandchildren of the Canary Island fighting dog which killed San Francisco lacrosse coach Diane Whipple in a horrific January attack, were advertised in Sunday's Los Angeles Times, described as "bad to the bone, protective and stable."

The San Francisco Chronicle, which reported the advertisement Friday, said the seven puppies were being sold for $1,200 apiece.

"It's a shame the dogs got such a bad reputation," Carolyn Murphy told the Chronicle, describing the puppies as "loving and caring." "It's a horrible thing that happened."

The puppies' grandfather, a 120-pound (55 kg) bruiser named Bane, broke free from its owner and savaged Whipple in the hallway of her own apartment building on Jan. 26. Whipple died shortly after the attack, which grabbed national headlines and shocked San Francisco's large population of animal lovers.

Bane was put to death shortly after the attack when animal control officers determined he was too dangerous to be kept alive.

Murphy said the puppies currently for sale are, like Bane, a cross between a Canary Island fighting dog and English mastiff -- a potentially dangerous mixture of power of and aggression.

Bane and another dog, Isis, had a daughter, Roka, who was bred with Menace, a dog imported from the Canary Islands, producing the litter now for sale, the Chronicle said.

A San Francisco prosecutor handling the criminal case against Bane's owners was outraged by the advertisement.

"I find it disturbing that someone would try to profit on a tragic death -- this is terrible," Assistant District Attorney Kimberly Guilfoyle said.

-- Anything to (make@a.buck), August 05, 2001.

Here is a little stat on the "dangerous pit bull" (Stat at bottom) Let's keep in mind what makes front page news. The San Fran. attacks were originally reported as "pit bull" attacks, just like many of the false stories we read. It wouldn't surprise me if half of this BB/chat panel has ever even been around the APBT. The "true" APBT, not my half Rotti/half Pit or my mutt that looks like a pit bull, but the real deal, find me one that is human aggressive and I will find you a bad owner, or bad breeder.

Turn off your damn TV, stop your newspaper subscription and educate yourselves. Go to a pitbull breeder with some merit. Ask to see the dogs, spend an hour, then tell me they are born human aggressive. 99% of the people I know have an opinion on Pit bulls, but everyone askes what type of dogs I have.

Where were all these attacks 20 years ago? 30 years? And the politicians have all the answers don't they. Ban the breed. That is one of the most ridiculous solutions I have ever heard. It will not solve anything. Bad people will find another dog to abuse, it hurts only me(The responsible dog owner) Given enought time and breed bannings, you may one day see thugs making the precious Poodle their dog of choice, then what?

Take a look at this interesting little statistic below. American Temperament Test Society Results, December 1999

(The numbers below represent the percentage of dogs passing.)

American Pit Bull Terrier: 81.7% American Staffordshire Terrier: 81.3% Bearded Collie: 52.4% Beagle: 78.7% Chow Chow: 69.1% Great Dane: 76.2% Golden Retriever: 81.1% Old English Sheepdog: 75.6% Weimaraner: 80.4%

(an abbreviated selection /reprinted with permission/atts.org)

-- Scott (scott@theadmins.com), August 07, 2001.