How the Democrats made loving Dixie a hate crime

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The Link to the story here

How the Democrats made loving Dixie a hate crime

By Robert Stacy McCain THE WASHINGTON TIMES

When he was the governor of Arkansas only two decades ago, Bill Clinton routinely issued proclamations, with the usual rhetorical flourishes, commemorating the birthdays of Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis.

So did the governors of other states once part of the Confederacy, and tributes to Southern valor and courage in the service of "the Lost Cause" were no more controversial than proclamations of Mother's Day, Thanksgiving and the Fourth of July.

But such tributes to Confederate heritage — held in reverence by millions of Southerners and other Americans — are now political dynamite. Two of President-elect George W. Bush's Cabinet nominees are under attack this week, not only for their stance on policy issues, but for sympathetic remarks toward the Confederacy.

In recent years, opponents have made a political issue of the Confederate battle flag. The familiar St. Andrew's Cross in red, white and blue was for decades an artifact of amiable tourist kitsch, displayed on shelves beside pecan rolls, corncob pipes and plastic alligators in gift shops and restaurants along highways to Florida, the Mississippi coast and other Dixie resorts.

Long-haired motorcyclists displayed the Confederate colors to proclaim their rebellion against "square" society. In the 1970s, Southern rock group Lynyrd Skynyrd toured the nation, taking the stage lavished with an enormous Confederate battle flag backdrop, while TV's "Dukes of Hazzard" showcased Bo and Luke Duke as they raced down country roads in their souped-up Dodge Charger, nicknamed "General Lee," with the flag emblazoned on its roof.

"Back as late as 1986, nobody complained about Confederate symbols at all," recalls P. Charles Lunsford, president of the Heritage Preservation Association, an Atlanta group that defends Confederate history.

So how and why has it become a hate crime to whistle "Dixie"?

"I think it represents a hole in our education," says Walter E. Williams, chairman of the economics department at Virginia's George Mason University and a nationally syndicated columnist who writes frequently on race and politics. He blames "political opportunism" for the crusade against Confederate remembrance.

"People are associating the War Between the States as solely motivated by slavery," says Mr. Williams, a black scholar who argues that the 1861-1865 conflict "was more of a states' rights issue than a slavery issue."

Thomas J. DiLorenzo, an economics professor at Loyola University in Baltimore who has written extensively on Civil War history, agrees. Left-wing groups "insinuate that if someone even mentions the word 'Confederacy,'" he says, "they're somehow secretly in favor of slavery.

"It's absolutely crazy. It's an act of desperation on the part of the left."

The left is now using the Confederacy as a weapon against Mr. Bush's Cabinet nominees.

Opponents of former Sen. John Ashcroft of Missouri, the nominee for attorney general whose Senate confirmation hearing begins today, criticize his 1998 interview in which he praised Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson as "Southern patriots."

Gale A. Norton, Mr. Bush's nominee for interior secretary, has drawn fire for a 1996 speech in which she said proponents of states' rights under the 10th Amendment "lost too much" as a result of the defeat of the South in 1865. Chairman Julian Bond of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) says Mrs. Norton's remarks "exhibited a wanton insensitivity toward slavery and its descendants."

In the past decade, elements of Southern history — represented by symbols such as the Confederate flag and by sentimental songs like "Carry Me Back to Old Virginny" — have gone from regional culture to national controversy.

In 1993, Carol Moseley-Braun, then a Democratic senator from Illinois, persuaded the U.S. Senate to deny renewal of a patent on the century-old emblem of the United Daughters of the Confederacy.

The Confederate flag became a presidential issue in the Republican primary in South Carolina last winter. Sen. John McCain of Arizona, who called the flag "a symbol of racism and slavery," was defeated in that key contest by Mr. Bush, who declined to describe his view of the flag but insisted that South Carolinians had the right to decide whether they should honor the flag and if so, how. Under pressure from an NAACP boycott, South Carolina's Legislature took the flag from its standard above the Statehouse in July. But the NAACP vowed to continue the boycott, upset because the Legislature voted to move the flag to a place of honor at a Confederate monument on the Statehouse grounds.

Mr. Bush ordered two plaques commemorating the Confederacy removed from the Texas Supreme Court building in Austin. Mississippi's legislature voted last week to hold a referendum on the Confederate emblem in its state flag, and Georgia Gov. Roy Barnes is trying to avoid a replay of the 1992-1993 struggle over that state's flag, which also incorporates the familiar St. Andrew's Cross. Some critics have grumbled about a single star on the Arkansas state flag, which commemorates the state's membership in the Confederacy.

Hostility to Southern symbols even has led to criminal attacks. A year ago, an outdoor mural portraying Lee was the target of an arson attack in Richmond. In 1995, a 19-year-old Kentuckian, Michael Westerman, was shot to death by a black teen-ager who was offended by a Confederate flag on Mr. Westerman's truck.

The change in sentiment toward the flag began in the 1980s when a professor at the University of Mississippi helped organize student protests against the university's use of Confederate symbols — "Dixie" as the school's fight song, the battle flag and a "Colonel Reb" mascot — at sporting events.

The NAACP then took up the fight. At its national convention in 1991, the NAACP adopted a resolution denouncing the Confederate battle flag as an "ugly symbol of idiotic white supremacy" and "an odious blight upon the universe," and pledged the organization to "the removal of the Confederate flag from all public properties."

John White, a spokesman for the NAACP, says the Baltimore-based organization opposes Confederate displays only on public property, not by private citizens. But he acknowledges the NAACP's role in promoting opposition to symbols of the Old South.

"The Confederacy has always been an issue," Mr. White says, "just like the Ku Klux Klan and other proponents of racism and slavery." The Klan, in fact, not only incorporates the flag as its symbol, but the Christian cross, familiar to black as well as white church-goers.

Mr. Lunsford, of the Atlanta heritage organization, accuses the NAACP of attempting "to eradicate every vestige of the Old South" and promoting racial animosity. "The NAACP has created a campaign of hatred, bigotry and oppression against all things Southern," he says. "They are trying to convince their people to hate us, and it's having some effect. . . . It's getting pretty nasty."

The NAACP has other critics, including conservative activist David Horowitz, who says the group has become "a defamation and shakedown operation" in recent years.

"If you are a corporation, they will accuse you of being racist and stick their hands in your pockets as far as they can go," says Mr. Horowitz, a prominent '60s radical leftist who now heads the Center for the Study of Popular Culture.

"If you are a political opponent, they will tar and feather you until you bleed or fall," Mr. Horowitz says. "The Confederacy is just one of the red herrings they use to keep themselves in business."

Sympathetic media coverage has fueled the attack on Southern symbols. A database search by The Washington Times found that three major newspapers —the New York Times, The Washington Post and the Los Angeles Times — reported just five Confederate flag-related stories in 1992, but 283 such stories last year.

Similarly, three newsmagazines — Time, Newsweek and U.S. News & World Report —printed 12 stories focusing on the Confederate flag in 1999 and 2000. A decade earlier, in 1989 and '90, those magazines published only two stories on the flag.

Ward Connerly, the University of California regent who led the fight to end racial preferences in that state, says he finds it "debilitating" for black Americans to dwell on injustices in the distant past.

"This preoccupation with the past and looking through the rearview mirror at America's history is preventing many black people from enjoying the present," he says. "Many are so concerned about slavery that they fail to appreciate the profound social changes that have occurred in our nation."

Mr. Connerly, who is black and who was born in Louisiana during the Jim Crow era, adds: "Unfortunately, people like [the Rev.] Jesse Jackson and others don't want blacks to enjoy life in America. They want them to feel miserable."

-- Uncle Bob (unclb0b@aol.com), January 16, 2001

Answers

A lot of us white folks who did not own slaves are getting a bit tired of hearing the negroes who were not slaves whine and moan about it.

-- sorry (not@this.time), January 16, 2001.

Bwaaahaaahaa!! I knew this was an Uncle Bob post before I even clicked it!

-- (heehee@so.predictable), January 16, 2001.

Bwaaahaaahaa!! I knew this was an Uncle Bob post before I even clicked it!

Geez...yor're a regular Dick-freeking Tracy....

-- Uncle Bob (unclb0b@aol.com), January 16, 2001.


Democrats and liberals, the cause of all the world's problems! Right Bob?!

-- (yeah.that's@what.you.think), January 17, 2001.

"A lot of us white folks who did not own slaves are getting a bit tired of hearing the negroes who were not slaves whine and moan about it. "

A lot of us white folks who live in parts of the country where slave ownership was not considered a God Given Right, are tired of hearing the white folks from the states who did, whine about not being able to publicly shove their pride over the flag that symbolized that history of slave owner into the faces of those who are descended from, or are the same color of the slaves that were owned.

I also wonder when those people who talk like they are part of a different country continue to want to "live in the past" and bemoan the fact that they lost the civil war, talk like they are not part of the country overall, think there was something "correct" about the slave owners attitudes of superiority (which a lot of their decedents continue to believe) and get over the past and join the rest of the country in the present.

I also wonder why the continue to say things like "negroes who were not slaves whine and moan about it"? Perhaps they believe this little bit of history should be removed from the history books and forgotten? Are negro's, who still feel the effects of the slave owners mentality "whining and complaining"? Or perhaps they are tired of being viewed as a "negro" rather than a person.

And just maybe the majority of the people in this country, black and white and other, are sick of hearing Caucasians whine and moan about wanting to fly a flag that lost it's legitimate right to be flown when they lost the war.

-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), January 17, 2001.



Only an idiot would say Robert E. Lee wasn't a patriot. It's too bad people don't realize what was lost when the South lost the war.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 17, 2001.


Or perhaps they are tired of being viewed as a "negro" rather than a person.

Nice try Cherri.

To be very honest the poster you quoted makes a point that I find it hard to disagree with completely. If blacks are tired of being viewed as "negroes" why do they support the idiots like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton who keep reminding them that they are different from, and less able to succeed and overcome adversity than, whites and other groups?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 17, 2001.


I'm a sixth generation southerner, and I've lived here my whole life. The Georgia state flag and the tradition of flying the flag over the state capitol in South Carolina are NOT about southern pride and heritage, but rather they are about a protest against desegregation. South Carolina began flying the flag soon after the Brown v. Board of Education decision, which effectively ended legal school segregation. The state of Georgia added the stars and bars to their flag then as well. Contrast this with the state of Mississippi, who began flying the flag officially on Confederate Memorial Day in in early 1900s.

It's not a crime to love the south, but it's certainly a lie to pretend that the symbols of the south haven't been stolen and perverted by groups like the KKK. Just as the swastika was once a symbol of luck and protection, the stars and bars which once stood for a gallant cause have come to mean something else. While it may be argued that the Klan uses the cross, the fact remains that the cross they use as their symbol is ON FIRE. Show someone a cross and they might think of their local church. Show them a cross on fire and then ask the same question.

Of course, there's more to the south than just the Civil War. Much more. I have no idea why some people want to define an entire region of this country by one four-year period. Heck, a number of states that attempted to seceed also fought in the Revolution, for a longer period. Why doesn't anyone ever talk about Georgia's contribution to our battle for Independance?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), January 17, 2001.


'' "People are associating the War Between the States as solely motivated by slavery," says Mr. Williams, a black scholar who argues that the 1861-1865 conflict "was more of a states' rights issue than a slavery issue." ''

Ah, the central fallacy of the argument that the Southern cause was a noble, holy, and righteous one. That's the biggest crock of aristocratic propaganda this side of the Atlantic Ocean.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), January 17, 2001.


It was a rich man's war and a poor man's fight.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), January 17, 2001.


If blacks are tired of being viewed as "negroes" why do they support the idiots like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton

Why do you assume "blacks" as a group support these two, or even consider them the same? Do you really believe that the average black person is the same as these two people? Have the same views and ideas?

who keep reminding them that they are different from, and less able to succeed and overcome adversity than, whites and other groups? Who keep reminding them of the "facts" you just pointed out? I don't know where you live but when your skin color is a factor in every day life, can you honestly tell me that there are not constant reminders to blacks that they are treated differently? Al Sharpton is an extremist idiot and considered one by most normal black people. Jessie Jackson has done a lot to continue the fight for equality for blacks. Most is done without headlines, it is only in the "extreme" situations that are publisized. The L.A. Gangs have been so publisized that a lot of people believe their behavior is the norm for black kids. Just like the (in my opinion) crap rap music that advocates the white cop hatred and the dehuminization of females, people who do not interact in daily life with blacks get the impression that all of extremes are the way blacks live and believe.

It is the same as believing that are Christian's have the same beliefs and act like Gary North. Personallt I do not hear black the people around me acting like or believing that they are Sharpton, but most are aware when they are viewed as "black" instead of as who they are. There were an abundance of negitive situations in Florida during the voting, if they were not done for the purpose of getting Bush into office and just normal, that in itself is enough to bring to light the problems of how they are treated as a group there in Florida. And don't try to tell me that areas in the south are not more bigited then in the rest of the country. I have lived in Texas and Florida where it is the norm to call black people by derogitory names and treat them differently. Even where I live there is bigotry and hatrid for people because of the color of their skin. I strongly disapprove of blacks who assume every time someone looks at them it is an insult to them because they are black, but that is a result of the way they have been treated. Children are not born assuming they are being treated wrong, it usually comes from experience. There have been a lot of progress made in the past 30+ years, some people have gone to extremes in both black and white groups. But to assume "blacks" as a group believe "overall" anything is a form of bigotry in itself. So what should be done when a black is treated badly because they are black? Shopuld they just forget it and walk away? What if it is at school or work and constant? I am not claiming it happens to all blacks at all times, but when it does what do you think they should do about it? If they attempt to have it remedied they are then labeled as troublemakers. If they do nothing and the behavior continues is that right? It will not stop for no reason, it becomes accepted and acceptable behavior.

The theme of this thread that blacks are all like Sharpton and whiners about slavery is in itself a big example of what they have to put up with. Assumptions. I agree totally that blacks today were not slaves. But blacks today have to live with a lot of the attitudes that the slave owners had. It is a slow proceedure for people to change their attitudes and the way blacks have been treated did not change the day equal rights were "won". Those who considered it correct to segrigate had certain beliefs that they passed down to their children but which were weaked with intigration, and their children grew up with it weakened even more. But the attitudes still exist. Not as they did 30 years ago, At 15 I had a summer county court housejob with a friend from school. She would not go to a resterant because she said she would not be served because she was black. I could not believe her. It was 1967. As I hung around with her I experienced what she was talking about.

The attitude towards blacks have changed from whites thinking they were inferior to whites thinking they are whiners and want jobs and an education at the expence of whites even though they are not qualified. And guess what, there are some blacks who demanded jobs and got them when they were not qualified. But not all and not the majority. But those are the instances you will be told about by those who dislike blacks as a whole. When people are taken on an individual bases then there will not longer be a problem. But I fail to see where blacks as a whole are whiners about slavery, the way I do not believe that non blacks as a whole are biggoted towards blacks.

Are there any black posters on this posting board? How can you tell?

-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), January 17, 2001.


"The NAACP has created a campaign of hatred, bigotry and oppression against all things Southern"

This is utter hyperbole. All things south? That is not what the organization is doing at all. It is standing up against symbolism on PUBLIC fixtures that at least, in some part, represents slavery. No law is being passed here regarding free speech, or what flag anyone in the south chooses to fly at hteir house, on their car, etc.

I think the major problem is is that many folk truly believe rascism is over, and wish that uppity blacks would stop talking about the past injustices. The truth is much different-rascism is alive and well in the form of racial profiling, among other injustices. In New York City they had to appoint a special task force to enforce taxicab regulations regarding picking up fares. The cabbies were refusing to pick up African-American fares-including the actor Danny Glover.

If you think african-americans should just go away, you are part of the continuing problem. I agree with Cherri-this board has a number of closet rascists, cloaking themselves under the guise of something else. While I may not agree with everything Jackson or Sharpton do, tell the family of Abadou Diallo(the guy who got shot 43 times in his hallway-being totally innocent), or tell the family of abner louima (who was assaulted in a police station with a plunger up his butt), that these folks should just be quiet.

I hope these folks, jackson and sharpton, DO NOT go away. I hope that more like them come to the forefront. It is totally true that rascism is alive and well. In fact, Ashcroft in his confirmation hearing yesterday said he would do whatever he could do to stop the practice of racial profiling. Do you accept this as proof that rascism is alive and well.

You can wish us activists away, but we are not going anywhere. We will just get LOUDER>

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), January 17, 2001.


FutureShock...

A colleague of mine is a middle-aged black man. He and I usually have dinner together once a week. I have gotten to know him well enough to discuss political and racial issues. I asked him during the 2000 election if he felt Jackson or Sharpton truly represent the black voter mindset. He said that they don’t speak for him and he wished that they would go away because they were more inflammatory to race relations than cohesive. Just one mans opinion…

-- Uncle Bob (unclb0b@aol.com), January 17, 2001.


Tarzan, you said,

While it may be argued that the Klan uses the cross, the fact remains that the cross they use as their symbol is ON FIRE. Show someone a cross and they might think of their local church. Show them a cross on fire and then ask the same question.

I disagree. There is no correlation between the cross and the fire. I think that most people would look at the burning cross and think, "Oh, look at that nice cross, representing Christian values, and isn't it bizarre that there is an entirely coincidental cross-shaped fire adjacent to it?"

Always learning,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 17, 2001.


I disagree. There is no correlation between the cross and the fire.

It depends on the context. Certainly not all cross burnings are created by the KKK, but because of the context the KKK has created for cross burnings (i.e., a terroristic threat) a burning cross has a very different meaning than just another fire hazard.

From the Klan's own website:

Question: If you're a Christian organization, why do you burn the cross? Answer: Fire has always been a symbol of purity. With the flaming cross, we erect the light of Jesus Christ and his purity on this polluted world. We set the cross on fire to show that we burn for righteousness and purity in a sick world. We use the light of the burning cross as a warning to those who would pollute and degrade our people and our society.

I am reluctant to post a URL to a racist site for all the world to view. If anyone wants the exact URL, e-mail me at tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net. The e-mail address is real, it's been set up through my ISP.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), January 17, 2001.



Frank:

US CONSTITUTION

ARTICLE III

Section. 3.

Clause 1: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

Clause 2: The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

Does this describe anyone that you have mentioned?

Idiot

-- Idiot (Idiot@idiot.idiot), January 17, 2001.


Cherri,

who keep reminding them that they are different from, and less able to succeed and overcome adversity than, whites and other groups? Who keep reminding them of the "facts" you just pointed out? I don't know where you live but when your skin color is a factor in every day life, can you honestly tell me that there are not constant reminders to blacks that they are treated differently?

No, I am not pointing out “facts”. I am pointing out a dangerous fallacy that is perpetuated by the Jacksons and Sharptons of this world, the fallacy that blacks cannot succeed in life without government intervention, that if they just protest enough times about past and current wrongs the government will be able to right all of these past and present wrongs, and the fallacy (Future Shock seems to buy this fallacy too) that getting LOUDER will somehow end racism.

Sure blacks are treated differently than whites by many whites. Whites are also treated differently than blacks by many blacks too. Asians are treated differently than whites by some people, the same is true for Jews and Indians. People who are obese are treated differently. People who are ugly are treated differently. People in wheelchairs are treated differently. My point is that even though government can write laws that attempt to address this issue, the underlying thought process can NOT be changed by government edict, or by rabble rousing, it must be changed by RESPECT, and respect is something that is earned, not bestowed by legislation, nor is respect earned by asking for it LOUDLY.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 18, 2001.


Dear "Idiot", Link to source

Secession Crisis

U.S. Constitution "The Right To Secede" March 4, 1789

The first union of the original 13 colonies was effected by the Articles of Confederation, adopted in 1781. The articles established a confederation of sovereign states in a permanent union. The "permanence" lasted only until 1788, when 11 states withdrew from the confederation and ratified the new Constitution, which became effective on March 4, 1789. The founding fathers recognized the defects in the Articles of Confederation, learned from these defects, and scrapped the articles in favor of the "more perfect union" found in the Constitution.

Nowhere in the Constitution is there any mention of the union of the states being permanent. This was not an oversight by any means. Indeed, when New York, Rhode Island, and Virginia ratified the Constitution, they specifically stated that they reserved the right to resume the governmental powers granted to the United States. Their claim to the right of secession was understood and agreed to by the other ratifiers, including George Washington, who presided over the Constitutional Convention and was also a delegate from Virginia. In his book Life of Webster Sen. Henry Cabot Lodge writes, "It is safe to say that there was not a man in the country, from Washington and Hamilton to Clinton and Mason, who did not regard the new system as an experiment from which each and every State had a right to peaceably withdraw." A textbook used at West Point before the Civil War, A View of the Constitution, written by Judge William Rawle, states, "The secession of a State depends on the will of the people of such a State."

Well into the 19th century, the United States was still viewed by many as an experimental confederation from which states could secede just as they had earlier acceded to it. It took a bloody war to prove them wrong.

Fascinating Fact: It is significant that no Confederate leader was ever brought to trial for treason. A trial would have brought a verdict on the constitutional legality of secession. Federal prosecutors were satisfied with the verdict that had been decided in battle.

Yes, you are an idiot, and a rude one to boot. Not a very good combination there, slim.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 18, 2001.


At Appomatox, Robert E. Lee ordered his men to furl the stars and bars forever, since we had lost the war. Does this mean that he didn't love the south?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), January 18, 2001.

Unk_

I have not fallen for any fallacy. And I have not said that the government can make everything right for the disadvantaged. I am not sure where you drew your conclusion, and you have not addressed the very real problems of racial profiling and outright prejudice(like the taxicab drivers) that I brought out. Government SHOULD do everything to enforce the laws, and in New York they sent people undercover to find these cab drivers and they received stiff fines for refusing fares.

Your example about whites not being treated the same by blacks is disingenius-You cannot pretend rascism does not exist, and you cannot reverse this because it is convenient. IT IS A REAL PROBLEM and a conservative ideaolouge under fire in a senate confirmation hearing admitted under oath that racial profiling exists and it should stop.

Would you say, Unk, that the government should not interfere with, in the case of the police, the asministration of their job however they see fit? Hey, Jackson proved himself to day to be a terrible leader- so I reverse my position on him today-but we need leaders of every color to fight the fight against the remaining prejudices as administered by people like our police forces.

And the kicker is this phrase you used:

"and respect is something that is earned"

Tell me you did not really write this. Are you saying that years of opression against african americans, and the continuation, thought to a somewhat lesser degree, of that prejudice today, is because African Americans have not earned respect? Please tell me this is not what you meant. As a human being of color they should be treated equally across the board-are you saying that those who have been racially profiled deserved to have been pulled over because they had not earned respect-Did Amadou Diallo and Abner Louima not earn respect? Do the african-americans who are not picked up by cab drivers not earn respect.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), January 18, 2001.


Frank (or anyone who knows the answer),

At the time Ft. Sumter (sp?) was fired upon, had South Carolina officially seceded from the USA? What was the justification given at the time for this act of war against the USA?

-- Just Asking (asking@question.org), January 18, 2001.


Yes, South Carolina had seceeded. They were the first state.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), January 18, 2001.

I've always heard that once South Carolina seceeded that the Union was considered an invading force.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), January 18, 2001.

FS--

I don't think you want to use taxi drivers as an example unless you have driven taxi in Manhatten yourself. My understanding is that, depending on time and place, even black hacks will bypass black fares.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), January 18, 2001.


FS,

I guess that you have never driven a cab for a living. I did for a while, many years ago in Ft. Lauderdale, and my roommate at the time was actually robbed at gunpoint by a young black male. He literally had the shakes for hours afterward from having a gun to his head. (I got him liquored up my reserve bottle of Chivas afterward, it seemed to help) Many of my co-workers were also robbed, the VAST majority of them by black males too. So tell me, was I wrong to avoid picking up young black males, was I wrong to drive past the "Searstown" area and look for fares on the "Strip", or was I simply protecting my self- interest? Yeah the situation sucks for honest young black males who want a cab, I agree, but I looked at the odds and decided that I had to do what I had to do in order to lessen the odds of my having a gun shoved in my ear. I suggest you give that profession a try before pontificating from on high about it.

And don’t hand me any horseshit that reverse racism does not exist, or that pointing it out is disingenuous, blacks can be just as guilty of racism as whites. Why is it OK to talk about white racism but disingenuous to point out black racism, huh FS? Think about Louis Farrakahn, old Louis gets a pretty good turnout at his million whatever marches, compared to the ten to twenty idiots that show up for Klan demonstrations. Louis is hardly a racial healer, do ya think? I don’t see thousands of supporters showing up at David Duke rallies, do you? As to your examples of police brutality, I say fire those asshole cops pronto when that kind of abuse comes to light, no matter what the color of the victim.

Now to the respect issue. I am not denying years of oppression against blacks, nor am I denying current racial strife, don’t be a dumbass. I responded to this thread because of my disrespect of people like Jackson and Sharpton and Farrakahn who use the race card to enrich themselves, who use the race card to get in front of the cameras, and who set back their race, who are in fact TRAITORS to their race by leading their followers to the government teat for re- address of all slights, real or imagined, and thereby saying to their people “You are not good enough to do this on your own”.

I don’t buy it. I have seen, and have personally met, enough black Americans who have pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps and succeeded beyond their parent’s, or even their own, wildest dreams to sit by with my mouth closed while the Jack-ass-sons of the world sell their people a bad bill of goods.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 18, 2001.


Shit, microsoft word screwed up my last paragraph.

(cont.)

The real racists are those on the left. The real racists are those who say to black Americans that they are not good enough to overcome without government intervention. Black people are the equal of any race that has overcome adversity and succeeded, despite the race baiters and bigots of any color who tell them otherwise.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 18, 2001.


Well said UD. Tough-love is not racist. I copy part of one of your paragraphs--

"I don’t buy it. I have seen, and have personally met, enough black Americans who have pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps and succeeded beyond their parent’s, or even their own, wildest dreams..........."

What caught my eye was the "bootstrap" thing. A tired clich to be sure but true none-the-less. I can remember way back in the 60s a civil rights person (I don't remember who, I think he was black but maybe not) who took issue with this figure of speech and said "fine, but what if you don't have bootstraps?" The guy didn't even understand, or maybe he didn't want to understand, the metaphor.

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), January 18, 2001.


Unk:

I couched my last response in questions as I was unsure of your motives. I wanted to see what you were thinking. And I am still not clear that you have adequately responded to my concerns, particularly your section on respect in your previous response.

We all have different experiences, but to come right out and say that picking up african american fares anywhere is riskier than any other fare, well, then, we are going to need some facts to back that up. One's personal experience, as I have been told innumerable times on this board, does not equate to the universal reality. You stated your opinion on the cops in New York City, what about racial profiling? You have avoided that in all of your response so far.

A new report just came out in New Jersey. Even after the state police admitted they were using racial profiling early last year, the statistics show that for the last half of the year it was still going on.

Okay. So you do not like Sharpton and Jackson. Fine. But I REFUSE to believe that everything is hunky-dory, and because a certain group of folks have pulled themselves up by the bootstrap, rascism is no longer an issue. Bullcrap.

The question is, really, what do you propose to do to combat the continuation of rascism, Unk? If not government oversight, than what do you suggest? I know that other racial groups had their issues at the turn of the century, and italians, irish, and germans in turn met some problems, they were all caucasion, and NONE of them were denied the vote once they became citizens. NONE of them were told to sit in the back of the bus, or use a seperate water fountain or bathroom.

What is your personal plan, Unk, to rid our country of racism? What I do, by the way, is combat it at every turn. My father is not allowed to use rascist remarks in my household, nor is anyone, for that matter. No matter what company I am in, work or play, if it comes up it is met with a quick retort by myself. I will not allow it in my life.

My deepest concern, with folks on this board and in society at large, is this warped idea that somehow racial problems no longer exist. There are also some here that are outright rascists(no names) and to those I say-what a shame, a crying shame.

You see, the whole problem in human society is the idea of "better than". Men are better than women, whites better than blacks, republicans better than democrats, and everyone refuses to see that we are all the same, we are all God's creatures, and no person is intrinsically better than another. I will fight injustice whereever I see it, and fight against ignorance at every turn. I will fight against opression of races, sexual orientation, or whatever it is in society that continues to push inequality, or creates inequality.

Rascism is not dead. Do you want to do anything about it accept say in your experience that, based on a few examples, we need to fear every black man in a city? For shame. In New York City, it is the LAW not to refuse fares-quit being a cab driver if you do not want to follow it. Saying that because I have never been a cab driver I am unworthy to comment on it is pure rhetoric-my wife WAS a cab driver, and she did not refuse fares, and she was never accosted by an african-american man-and the vast majority of cab drivers have never been accosted by an african american man.

All I can say is, try being african american for a week, and see if you have the same things to say.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), January 18, 2001.


I set one of my cousins on a blind date with my soon to be brother-in- law, who is black. My cousin is not. Two hours into their date, in modern, metropolitan Atlanta, they were pulled over. Two police officers approached the car. One asked my future brother-in-law, who was driving, to step out of the vehicle, just to talk. The other asked my cousin if she were there willingly. No tickets were written, no warnings issued.

We live in a very nice section of town. More often than not, when my fiance's brother comes by, he gets pulled over. He's only received two actual citations after literally forty traffic stops. It's gotten to the point where we add twenty minutes to anytime he says he'll be at our house.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), January 18, 2001.


No FS, since you are the one who is convinced that "racism" (for lack of a better word to describe man’s tribal instinct) is unnatural why don’t you tell me what should be done about racial profiling. Should police departments install "Black-o-meters" in cop cars to count the politically correct number of traffic stops allowed that day?

As I’ve said before, I have met many very successful black people in my business life, and respect them all, even the ones who are lawyers, lol. I know lots of not hugely successful black people too, but they are hard workers, and I respect that as well. I know this one guy who floored me with a comment one day. He works at the Mobil station as an attendant, you know, the guy who helps old ladies fill up and stuff like that. In fact I know for sure that he works at at least three gas stations, this guy works his ass off. Being an outgoing friendly person I have gotten to know this guy rather well and one day we were chatting as I filled up my truck and a carload of young black hoods pulled up to the mini-mart. They got out of the car yelling muthafucka this, muthafucka that and generally acting like assholes. Adrian, my black acquaintance said to me, and I quote "Mon, I hate dose niggers, dey make it so hard for me." I about shit myself when I heard him say that and I asked him what he meant by it. He basically said that he hates being judged by the standards that American blacks set for him, he told me that, and I quote "I am not black, I am Jamaican". Why am I telling this story? I don’t know. Lemme tell you another one that shocked me. Last week I was in the sporting goods store buying new sneakers. Two black guys were next to me trying on sneakers too. The one black guy asked the white salesman "Are you going to give me the socks free if I buy these shoes?" The salesman replied "I’m sorry sir, that promotion ended last weekend." Again I about crapped my pants when the black guy said "If I was white you would give them to me." The salesman looked at me, he was as surprised as I was, he looked back and told the youth "I don’t care what color you are, the sale is over." The black guy threw the sneakers down and stomped off. Why am I telling you this story? I don’t know. But to quote the article that began this thread Mr. Connerly, who is black and who was born in Louisiana during the Jim Crow era, adds: "Unfortunately, people like [the Rev.] Jesse Jackson and others don't want blacks to enjoy life in America. They want them to feel miserable."

You mentioned other racial groups who have had past problems with discrimination, but I saw no mention of Asians. They are hardly Caucasians, yet they seem to have overcome being called dinks, gooks, and slants to lead productive lives here in America. How do you explain that? Don’t try to tell me it's because they did not face extreme racist views, the very first anti-drug laws in America were started as a direct measure to make life difficult for the opium smoking Asian railroad workers. They have faced a lot of bigotry, and I’m sure that there are still lots of dipshits who still refer to them as gooks, but the Asian people seem to shrug it off and get on with living, or is my impression of this just another "racist" view?

I too fight injustice. I too fight ignorance. That is why I am arguing with you. You seen to think that protesting racism will end it. It will not. Protesting racism will not end it even if you get really LOUD about it. Racism will never end by government edict, it will only go underground, as proven by your NJ police traffic stop statistics. Which is not to say that government is totally helpless to stop egregious racial abuses, such as a plunger up the butt, however government will NEVER be able to erase hate from the hearts of men, no matter how hard the left micro-manages our lives by government fiat. As I said before, only respect can end racism, and respect is earned, not bestowed. Now if folks earn your respect by showing up at an Al Sharpton "Rally for reparations" more power to you, but it takes more than that for most folks.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 19, 2001.


PS, Republicans ARE better than Democrats, but not by much.

;-)

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 19, 2001.


FS, don't waste your time. Somebody who thinks it's acceptable to discriminate against someone because they resemble someone who once assaulted you is clearly delusional.

-- People judge you by the company you keep (thecompany@you.keep), January 19, 2001.

At least I have the guts to state my opinions under my own name, pussy.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 19, 2001.

Roflmao @ unc's last comment.....

he said pussy....haaahaa tee hee

-- sumer (shh@aol.con), January 19, 2001.


Unk:

Rascism=Tribal instinct. ROTFLMAO. So here we have it-darwinism at its best. Since the caucasion portion of the tribe is, uh, smarter, um, more populous(at least in the us), and whatever, it is natural for him to keep the lower members of his cast down, by whatever means necessary. Forget that we are supposed to be an evolved species, an elightened country; forget all that. We have the explanation here-we are animals and this is how animals act. Perfect.

Well. You know what? I am going to partially agree with you, because in many ways we do not overcome our animal instincts, and if we cannot when it comes to race, let us not to pretend to be the leader of the free world-let us not pretend we live in a land where every one is equal. Our experiment in democracy is over, because we are tribal, and after all, if we are tribal, we eventually end up with a Plutocracy, or some other form of government than a republic.

How to stop racial profiling? Simple. Do not pull over vehicles simply because they have an african-american driver. In New Jersey, more than half the time a summons is not written as no infraction has occured. The driver was simply pulled over because of race.

Unk, we have nothing more to say to one another on this topic if you truly believe that racial profiling is an issue about political correctness. We do not have to count the number of politically correct stops-we just have to stop pulling people over because they are of color.

You are still giving personal examples, and trying to extrapolate a universal reality from them. Do some african-americans overreact to situations because of their oppression? Sure they do. And they are wrong when they do. Is it easy to percieve the world as hostile as an african-american youth from the poor section of town? Hell yeah. And do some african american folk state prejudice against white? Sure do, But what does it mean? It answers none of my points.

Are you certain that all asain americans lead productive lives in America? Are you sure they are not the subject of prejudice? I sure am not. I see it all the time in NY, and it is a stretch to single out an ethnic group and stereotype them, as you have been doing in all your responses-african americans are like "this" and asian americans are like "that". What empirical evidence, outside your ubiquitous experience, can tell us that all asians just "shrug it off".

I disagree that protest should be stifled. I agree that protesting alone will not change the hearts of men, but I disagree with taking it underground and just, you know, being quiet, and accept the rascism. I say scream it from the top of buildings.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), January 19, 2001.


FS,

Actually, if we have nothing further to say to one another on this subject it is because you are reading things that I have not said, or, you are reading into things that I HAVE said meanings that were not intended. (Or I am not being clear.....nah) So since we seem to be talking past one another I guess that I must resort to quoting in order to keep things clear. You said:

Rascism=Tribal instinct. ROTFLMAO. So here we have it-darwinism at its best. Since the caucasion portion of the tribe is, uh, smarter, um, more populous(at least in the us), and whatever, it is natural for him to keep the lower members of his cast down, by whatever means necessary.

Where the hell did I say that? Is this the point that you think I am trying to make? Whites are better than blacks? Or am I just your whipping boy because I am the only one posting to this thread who does not fall in lockstep with Jesse Jacksonian thinking?

Here is what I DID say; perhaps you missed it: “Black people are the equal of any race that has overcome adversity and succeeded, despite the race baiters and bigots of any color who tell them otherwise.” My exact words. Now that hardly sounds like the statement of someone who thinks blacks are inferior, do ya think?

Now back to one of your points, you said:

How to stop racial profiling? Simple. Do not pull over vehicles simply because they have an african-american driver……We do not have to count the number of politically correct stops-we just have to stop pulling people over because they are of color.

Yes, simple indeed. Now how about the sticky details FS? How do we keep track of this ideal situation? Who keeps track? Who counts how many blacks were pulled over vs whites pulled over? How do we make allowances for predominantly white areas and black areas? How do we check whether or not the cops are now giving out more citations to blacks in order to cover up that they have pulled over too many innocent blacks that week? Yep, a real simple solution. Maybe we should hire race cops to ride with the regular cops to keep tabs on them, to make sure that they are fair about who is pulled over and when. Unless the race cops need watching also. Oh my, that could happen too. If the race cops need watching also we will have to send a third cop along to watch both of the other two, in order to make sure they stay in line. After all, YOU are the one who pointed out that in NJ profiling had still not ended SIX months after having been exposed, so it therefore WILL need to be enforced somehow.

Do you really want to end racial profiling FS? Take a LONG HARD look at the war on drugs. You will find 90% of your solution there.

You said:

Are you certain that all asain americans lead productive lives in America? Are you sure they are not the subject of prejudice?

Funny, I seem to remember saying “They (Asians) have faced a lot of bigotry, and I’m sure that there are still lots of dipshits who still refer to them as gooks, but the Asian people seem to shrug it off and get on with living…” So much for your misrepresentation of my words, again.

What empirical evidence, outside your ubiquitous experience, can tell us that all asians just "shrug it off".

Were the hell did I say ALL ASIANS, and did I or did I not say the word SEEM to shrug it off. If I see the Million Asian March for equality I will be convinced that Asians no longer “seem” to shrug it off, but since you stated that you see it all the time in NY (prejudice towards Asians) and I do not see huge protest marches one of us is mistaken. You either see prejudice towards Asians all the time and they shrug it off, or they are not very well organized protestors.

I think you must be somewhat confused about what I am saying FS, I do not know what else to think. In one sentence you agree with me that we humans do not overcome all of our “tribal instincts”, you agree with me that protest alone will not end racism, yet somehow you “seem” to end up suggesting that I am either wrong or deluded because I suggest that racism will not be overcome by protest, and that men have deeply embedded “tribal instincts”. I NEVER said that the solution to racism should be “taking it underground and just, you know, being quiet, and accept the rascism.”, I said the solution to racism is RESPECT, in fact I have said that MANY times now. Now I guess we can continue to talk past one another, or I guess that we can end this conversation, or I suppose we could try to seriously discuss it. I’ll be here if you wish to talk about this further.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 19, 2001.


FS,

I agree with you that both blacks and Asians have faced discrimination in this country. Why do YOU think it is that black male motorists are still pulled over and not Asian ones? Is there a reason?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 19, 2001.


Frank, my friend:

I fail to see why posting the US Constitution makes me rude. I guess that tells me something about you and your beliefs.

Idiot

-- Idiot (Idiot@idiot.idiot), January 19, 2001.


So U.D. drove a cab for a living at some point.

I pretty nuch think he should be in the fucking U.N. now.

Flying those black helicopt... C'mon, how many people are just playing the part now?!? U.D., are you really that racist?

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), January 19, 2001.


Ah Bemused,

Because I express my feeling that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and company are not doing blacks any favors I am a racist. Because I am willing to explore my ideas honestly you suggest that I should be working as some sort of UN helicopter stormtrooper! ROTFLMAO!!

Learn to read!

I'll give you a clue, I was a 19 year old punk when I drove that cab, so many long years ago. My views have matured a bit since then. But hell, if you think that Jesse does his race proud when he leads a protest march because black thugs were video taped causing a near riot at a football game, and were then suspended from school, have a nice delusional day! After all, they were not really fighting on that tape, were they?

PS, another clue for the clueless. If y'all want to start a thread about David Duke I'll be right there calling him a fool and a race traitor too! I am an equal opportunity pointer out of assholes.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 20, 2001.


Somebody hand Unk a magic wand. While you're pointing you can at the same instant magically remove the ignorance of heart and mind which is the source of the blight that afflicts us all.

Begin with me, if you would be so kind.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), January 20, 2001.


*POOF*

Rich, you are healed! Go forth and spread light to the heathens.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 20, 2001.


OK, since I am an ignorant heathen who has not yet felt the touch of the magic wand, I would like to ask just a few questions of the opposing side.

Please tell me how protesting bigotry removes bigotry from the hearts of men? What is the mechanism?

I will second Frank’s question. Why are black males subject to racial profiling in higher numbers than other races?

Should the fact that black males have a high ratio of convicted felons per capita be taken in to account by law enforcement agencies when conducting traffic stops? If not, why?

Does a man who calls New York “Hymietown” have any right to protest racial slurs directed toward his own people? Should a man who calls Caucasians the "White Devils" be afforded respect by members of any race?

When will equality be reached to your satisfaction? What will be the proof to you?

In a nation where people of color have risen to be multi- millionaires, where they have risen to the heights where they are able (and in some cases begged-Colin Powell) to run for president, how much more work needs to be done?

Do you harbor feelings of ill will towards people whom you respect? What qualities in a person earn your respect?

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 20, 2001.


Should a man who calls Caucasians the "White Devils" be afforded respect by members of any race?

Just don't call me cracker... That's crossing the line...

-- Uncle Bob (unclb0b@aol.com), January 20, 2001.


I do as FS stated he does with comments and actions of a bigoted nature. I make it clear to the person(s) involved it's a bunch of crap. Mind you I'd always rather know who is bigoted and which particular color of skin/ethnicity/religion they look down upon. If I come across this attitude in a business environment I cease doing business with them.

Unk stated: Please tell me how protesting bigotry removes bigotry from the hearts of men? What is the mechanism?

My form of protest amounts to one-on-one confrontation IF I deem the person worthy of my time and reasonably nonviolent.

As to changing the heart of another, well that's a tough one. One day about a decade ago I volunteered to watch my ex's god-daughter for an afternoon. She was about 8 years old at the time. We were discussing her friends at school when she stated one of her classmates was a nice nigger. She really thought she was speaking kindly of him!

Needless to say I spent quite a bit of time using analogies and history (as best I could with an 8 year old) to point out the hurtful nature of her statement and more importantly the idiocy of judging people based upon skin color. I appealed to her head and heart as best I could.

From whom did she learn to use the word nigger? Her mother and grandparents. Suffice it to say I have NEVER set foot in their homes again. There was no discussion of bigotry possible with the adults. Fortunately this young girl has grown into a young woman and no longer refers to blacks as niggers as far as I know. The state of her heart is beyond my ken.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), January 20, 2001.


Thank you Rich.

I guess nobody else has any answers to my questions.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 21, 2001.


Unk-

Will answer later today or tomorrow-weekends are busy for me.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), January 21, 2001.


Hey Unk, you *POOFED* me! There's a real shortage of poofs in these parts, ya know. You have any idea how long I've gone between poofs? A guy has to take 'em where he can get 'em.

When it comes to social change on a large scale, to be achieved through private methods, patience must be exercised. Children are our species brightest hopes for progress. The best teachers are experience and the examples others set.

Teach your children well, people. Set your goals as those you wish your kids might take for themselves. Look through their eyes, hear with their ears, feel with their hearts. Set things right as best you can in your little corner of the world. Pray your children do the same.

Humanity is progressing rapidly, though the daily grind, the feeding of buckets of negativity to us through the media (which we often choose to gobble down without chewing thoroughly), the downpour of information leaves us fatigued and prods us to adopt short-sighted views. Don't get caught in the meatgrinder of current events.

We are one people, a species-diamond in the rough with billions of facets in need of polishing. A little more work on our own facet and a lot less looking over to see how badly the other guy is f*cking his up is a policy I try to live by. It's slow going but from time to time there reveals itself a little sparkle which provides reward and bolsters perseverance.

Look for that sparkle in others as you go through your days. Look into their eyes, for through that doorway hearts embrace. There skin color & shade, height, weight, religion & party affiliations are revealed for what they are: irrelevant except for purposes of tearing us apart.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), January 21, 2001.


I heard the question as I was writing the last post. How do we address wrongs being perpetrated NOW? Jobs are denied and filled based upon factors other than fitness for the position. College applicants are pigeon-holed and handpicked according to everything BUT their academic achievement. How do we fix this NOW?

All negatively discriminative activities ingrained in a given society are the responsibility of each of the members of that society. Some of us are moved to protest on grand scales. Others, as I, do what they can on an individual level to remove their support from the reprehensible practice.

In business one MUST operate under basic principles which go beyond profit margin/paycheck. This assumes one's principles are more important than material goods, beyond those required for subsistence of course.

I've witnessed and experienced countless instances of bigotry in my 36 years (and am responsible for more than a few). In business I've dealt with slurs cast at me. Did I sue? Not a chance. That business owner had the right to wear his ignorance on his sleeve and run his business the way he saw fit, IMO. I left his employ and made sure people in the communities around there knew of his bigotry and informed them of the businesses he owned so they could decide whether or not they would support him with their hard-earned cash.

The instance above occured in a major metropolitan area where it was easy to avoid patronizing that owner's establishments. There are thousands of small communities across the United States where choices of services are few and far between. Hertford, NC comes to mind. The home of Catfish Hunter and Wolfman Jack, both deceased. A county seat of less than 3000 people. A bastion of bigotry. I lived there for less than a year and moved the hell out.

Elizabeth City, NC was another pit of bigotry I was fortunate to experience. The list is long. I had no ties to bind me to these places. For those who wish to remain and fight in places such as these I suggest it is possible to win the war against ignorance. It requires rallying the community, gaining access to the local media, stiffening resolve, speaking out, pooling resources so people don't go without basic necessities.

I don't for a moment believe fighting bigotry in business AND/OR local government is a walk in the park. My experiences in the South have shown me ignorance has been fostered in many small communities from the top down, year after year, generation after generation. But in each town I met people of good heart who just lacked the spines to stand up for what their hearts knew to be right. Their minds were weak and their hearts weaker still.

Some might call this spinelessness bowing to peer pressure. That's a nice way of writing it off, of divesting ourselves of responsibility for our actions. Those of us who remain silent make ourselves part of the bigot's arsenal. Silence in the face of bigotry is cowardess and acquiescence.

Speak up. Speak out. "Out" the bigots. Embarrass them not by calling them names but by pushing them into the light of day. And if the bigot is proud of his bigotry and holds fast to it, so be it. We can't win every battle in this life, but we can choose to fight or tuck our tails, sink our heads in the sand and let another day slip through our fingers.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), January 21, 2001.


Dixie

I wish I was in the land of cotton,

Old times there are not forgotten,

Look away, look away, look away, Dixie land.

In Dixie land where I was born in,

Early on a frosty mornin',

Look away, look away, look away, Dixie land.

Chorus:

Then I wish I was in Dixie, hooray! Hooray!

In Dixie land I'll take my stand, to lib and die in Dixie,

Away, away, away down south in Dixie,

Away, away, away down south in Dixie.

-- (nemesis@awol.com), January 21, 2001.


FS--

You consistantly misspell the word "racism". You are a literate fellow so my guess is that you do this intentionally, maybe to make a pun on the words fascism and racism? (sort of like replacing "c" with "k" in Amerika).

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), January 21, 2001.


I wrote this in another thread, but feel it belongs here.

Before affirmative action a black person could be denied a job just because no blacks were wanted. It was not uncommon for them to be told not to bother applying, they wouldn't get it.
Affirmative action, and yes, quota's were introduced and at least some were allowed to work where they would not be allowed to before.

Three decades and the mentality that prevented the original segregation has been watered down, new generations of people who have grown up with and worked with blacks do not automatically assume the blacks do not belong. Not all, there are still those with the old inferiority complex that have to think themselves better than blacks to build up their pathetic little... ego's. But had quota's and affirmative not been forced upon the country.... would the opportunities been opened up for blacks? Ever? When? How? It didn't happen naturally. Same with women. Women were NOT allowed in the field I got into. Period. No if's and's or but's. Along came affirmative action. My field opened up. I was one of the first four women in the entire United States Military to be allowed to train for and work at my job. Full opposition all the way by many individuals. people who felt it was their right to let me know just how much they disapproved of of a woman being "allowed" to do my job.
Years and years of one person after another treating me like shit because they didn't feel like I should be there. It did not matter that I did my job better then others, it did not matter what I did or did not do. I got constant crap at work from ego-impared people who made it a daily routine to do all they could to make my job miserable.
This also happened to blacks who were finally "allowed" into jobs, schools etc. because of affirmative action and quota's.

If things were so perfect, if society was so fucking great before quota's and affirmative action then why were women and blacks denied the OPPORTUNITY to work in so many jobs? It didn't matter if they were qualified. That was the way people wanted it. They didn't want to work with blacks. They didn't want to work with women. So they didn't allow it.

Affirmative action and quota's were the only way that women and blacks could get in the fucking door to prove they could do the fucking jobs.

Now we have a bunch of idiots acting like affirmative action and quota's were wrong, like they were set up just to abuse the white male in some way. As if it was nothing but a scheme to abuse the poor white male. Get your heads out of your asses. It was the white males who were the ones who denied the blacks and women the chance to get those opportunities. So if you want to blame anyone, blame the white males who were so damn bigoted and sexist in the first fucking place.

But then it is white males who think all blacks are gangbanger middle school dropouts with welfare queen single mothers with 10 kids. Yes it is time to stop quota's. But only because a new generation of white males have grown up going to school with blacks kids and worked with blacks and women and think it is normal.
They do not hive the mind set that brought the need for affirmative action and quota's in the first place. But don't try to say quota's and affirmative action were the wrong way to go, because they were not. They were needed and they have accomplished what they were set out to accomplish. Stop going backwards to the extremes of the bigots of the past, it looks ugly on you.

-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), January 21, 2001.



-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), January 21, 2001.


Hey Cherri, what are you doing tonight?

-- Joey Jo Jo Jr. Shabadoo (joeyjojo@Shabadoo.org), March 23, 2001.

These dem-y-crats are attempting ruin the Article of Confederation, a proud ten years in our nations history. It wasn't about trade barriors, jumbled currency, and a nonexistent central government. It was about states rights. I will not let the best efforts of Robert Morris go in vain.

-- Uncle Buck (donttreadonme@federalismbad.net), March 23, 2001.

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