In the sixties, when Vietnam was really gearing up and the debate about it and a multitude of other issues were tearing families apart, my favorite cartoonist, Charles Shultz did a Charlie Brown strip that I dearly loved. One in particular I made copies of and put on my mirror, my locker at work and my refrigerator. Charlie Brown was sitting in the pumpkin patch all alone and dejected and said, “Never argue about politics, religion or the great pumpkin.” For the most part I have really tried to follow that in my life, with minor transgressions here and there along the way. Some of the stuff that has been said on this forum is very confusing for me and I was wondering where it ever came from.

What is a tree hugging liberal??? If you are an environmentalist and want to conserve, why aren’t you a considered a conservative? If I hug a tree, does that mean I am a liberal? I have been known to hug a tree and I am so conservative I don’t even believe that congress should be allowed to meet for more than two weeks a year.

Why are so many peacemakers and passive resistance advocates killed in violent ways? If I understand correctly Jesus said we shouldn’t kill but some of the most outspoken Christians are big on guns and self-defense. I am not just picking on Christians here, I try to follow Christ, but I have studies almost every major religion in the world and their leaders are most always passive resistance advocates.

I think someday there are going to be a lot of very surprised people. The only people I ever read that Jesus condemned were the hypocrites. I figure if you are going to follow a path, follow the whole thing.

It looks to me that almost everyone has their “sacred cow” and knee jerk reactions aren’t just the territory of the fundamentalists.

Just a few things that have been eating at me and keep me wondering. Now that I have probably offended at least half of the forum, I really do love you all. I think maybe I should go back to school and do a doctorate in sociology or something and use this forum for my thesis. A real microcosm of the world.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), January 06, 2001

Answers

Now you've gone and done it.....oh boy. Last statement first, yep it sure is a microcosm of the world. Kinda weird how so much in common can also mean so little in common.

As for guns, they are a tool. They save lives when used defensively. take them when used offensively. My stand is that they are indeed they great equalizer. They do not jump off the shelf and take out rooms of peopleat their own behest. It seems very Bibliccaly correct to defend the innocent. There were not guns in the year 0, but if you remember correctly, Peter carried a sword. Precedence set.

Why are so many peacemakers and passive resisters killed in violent ways? Because they aren't armed.

As for tree hugging, I hug them, too. I think we should all climb trees more, if we're able. I love the Lord's creation, but I don't worship it.I think the earth has plenty of resources, but as the Ghandi quote goes, "There is enough for everyman's need but not enough for everyman's greed".

I'm afraid this might go and get ugly.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), January 06, 2001.

IN MY OPINION, I find it funny that the right to life people are considered conservative, and the right to choose people are considered liberal. My understanding tells me that conservatives are for sticking to the constitution as it is written, and liberals are for a more interperative reading of the document. As far as I can see, there is nothing in the constitution to forbid someone from having an abortion, so the conservative view would be to allow the practice. The opposition to abortion would seem to be the "liberal" viewpoint.

I learned (In bartender school) long ago to keep my religion and politics to myself (bad for tips). I sit back, and watch everybody get so worked up about so much stuff that doesn't really matter. It is actually kind of funny when you think about it. When we first moved to this place I was so strapped for time that I found it necessary to mow my yard on Sunday. God forbid that I actually did that. It was interesting to see that people that would wave when they passed on any other day of the week, would "shun" me when they drove by and I was "working" on Sunday. These same people went home and milked their "factory" dairy herds and gathered their "factory" eggs. But of course, "their" ox was in the ditch!

What it comes down to, is "people are funny". I believe that Jesus saw that. I think he probably is still laughing about his experiences, and I appreciate the fact that he spent so much time with people like me. And for those who believe, you are probably lucky that he went through with it. Remember, he didn't have to.

Your mention of hypocrisy, is exactly why I have not chosen to call myself a christian. It seems that there is nothing worse for a religious person than organized religion.

-- Wayne (plefor@hotpop.com), January 07, 2001.

Wayne, you said "Your mention of hypocrisy, is exactly why I have not chosen to call myself a christian. It seems that there is nothing worse for a religious person than organized religion." That's the truth!

To me christian intolerance, defamation, discrimination, bigotry, and bias is the major cause of disension on this forum.

-- JLS in NW AZ (stalkingbull007@AOL.com), January 07, 2001.

Well.... I guess i am going to respond. Let me start by saying i am a Christian and very proud of that fact. But havent responded much that has been said on the forum about relegion. Reason being that i think most of the people who have been responding have to much time on their hands. By me saying one time that i am a Christian and have Jesus Christ in my life is all that is needed on this forum only 1 time. As far as me saying people have to much time on their hands i mean this. My most important job in my life is my husband and then my children and if i have any more time after that then i can pursue friends and other outside interest. But most of the people who have been responding about the (relegious forums) seem to be consumed with it 24/7. I was wondering how they get on with there daily life. When i read things on this forum that i dont agree with i just dont respond. I know our most important job is witnessing to other people and i do that but this homesteading forum is not the place for that. I feel like this forum is kind of like a National new station and you listen(read) to what you want and you dont to the others. Im sure that something we have heard on th news we dont agree with but we cant respond and change what we have heard. I know there is a very ecclectic group of people on this forum and we are all different. We are even different on how we homestead and what we thing about gun control and hunting and being on the grid. So i think this forum should be used for homesteading info and making friends also but just keeping in mind that everyone is different. You know the bible says to love everyone and i sure havent seen that from the Christians. Just a thought i would share with everybody.

-- Sarah from NC (Caswell995@cs.com), January 07, 2001.

Wayne, I know what you mean about working on Sunday. Many people take this all the wrong way. I did a Bible Study with some very intelligent, loving Bible Believing people. And it was so refreshing to hear others just talk about problems we encounter from people who get so worked up about nothing. It's all so simple really.

God was wise in saying to take a day off, let your servants have a day off and your donkeys, just seems natural to rest. But it did not mean to let your animals starve, or to let things go that needed to be done. I love to go outside on Sunday and work in the garden or mow or anything. But the difference is to not force someone else to work FOR you on Sunday, IF that is your belief. Do it yourself. And God said to 'keep the day Holy'. Well, I feel close to God in my garden, and I am thinking thankful thoughts as I tinker around. He says 'Think on Me this day.'

Not all, but some of the people who scream the loudest about this go out to eat every Sunday after Church. Are they not forcing someone else to serve them? If they want to go eat, then fine, it's none of my business, but don't slam me for working outside. My feeling is the Godly thing to do would be to make lunch at home, and then take part of it to someone who needs it or just to be kind. And then there are those who come home from Church and plop down on the sofa, and watch the most Ungodly movies of all times, but slam me for working out in the garden. Dosen't make sense.

Really, really, if you have made enough money the 6 days to feed your family, then God says to rest, for your own good, and to dwell on Him and all He has given you. But God understands if you HAVE to do something, if you have no money for food and a job come up on Sunday, He understands. We go out many times on Sunday and help others, even BUILDING! We are volunteering our time to help others, are we not. Isn't that what we are supposed to do! People should just be and do what THEY are and not put others down for what what WE are. And just love each other, God does not just love the ones who love HIM, He loves everyone. You have a great Sunday!

-- Cindy in Ky (solidrockranch@msn.com), January 07, 2001.

I agree with Wayne on much of what he said. That would also tend to agree with JLS to a point. You see, I am the one who started the political, religious controversies (with the permission of Steve ). I'm sorry but I just haven't got around to the Great Pumpkin yet. Maybe I'll get to it here. These heated debates mixed with a little civility have there place here.

In this forum you voice a mood, attitude or opinion with pride or anonimity, if you so desire. There is no danger involved. I'm sorry, but I totally discount anyone claiming to be hurt by words. Hurt is a broken bone, Hurt is unstoppable bleeding. I'll buy slightly offended ! Truman said it best--"If you can't stand the heat than get out of the kitchen" !! This forum, as any forum is-----a place for open debate of issues. ANY ISSUES ! Since homesteading is so diverse, than so are the issues. The creator of the forum, the Great Pumpkin (Steve), has spoken. I believe he said--"I'm back and I will run this forum as it has always been run" To me this statement represents that the forum was fine and no changes or so called improvements were necessary. I agree.

I think this forum is not for everyone. I don't know of anyplace that is for everyone. If you cannot take words on paper in stride than it is definitely not for you. On the same token--if you enjoy trying to hurt people than it is not for you either. We have had both types here--now and before--and they come and go at times. That is life ! We have the good, the bad, and the ugly. Find your own catergory !

I don't know exactly what I am so you will have to come up with a term to label me. I use anarchist at times but my father says my life is to structured to be called that. He said You have an order to things,son , so that title is inaccurate. How do you the forum think a person really is ? Do you want to know what they look like ? How they act ?

What if I told you that I'm 5'10, 200 lbs, red curley hair, blue eyes. That I'm basically shy and quiet. That here on paper is where I express my feelings best. That your own shadow would scare you more than I could. Does that make me easier to read ? I doubt it seriously !

I think each of us must resign ourselves to this fact--The forum is what it is ! Nothing can improve it ! Only we ourselves can destroy it and no one else is respondsible for how we view it. Many times I have offered a compliment that was viewed as trashing someone and that is not my problem--that is their problem. Why not ask me what I meant, privately, if you feel it necessary ? I respond to everyone in a civilized manner ! The problem you see is that there is no problem and that seems to problem some people !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), January 07, 2001.

Gosh, Joel, you are one of the folks on this forum that never offend my senses even when I don't agree with you. Your description of yourself is as I pictured you, except for the red hair, but that too, fits your firey personality. Every family needs a redhead to keep life from getting boring.

Diane, there is a big difference, politically, between an environmentalist and a conservationist. It would seem they are the one and the same but they are not.

Those of us who farm, hunt, log or garden in a way so that our land remains healthy, providing renewable resources for our children are conservationists.

Those who object to any land use, who not only do not want to manage their own land, but do not want you to farm, log, hunt, garden your own land, in spite of the consequences of neglect. These are the environmentalists. They want to relocate all of us to the cities where we can be better managed.

-- Laura (gsend@hotmail.com), January 07, 2001.

I am an environmentalist and I take LARGE exception to what you said Laura. As far as I am concerned, you stay outta my backyard and I will stay out of yours. I had given you much more credit than you deserved apparently. I guess the thing I see wrong with this forum is the generalizations, STEREOTYPES and the bigotry. Can we get back to homesteading? I like ALL of you much better then and I didn't have to run my mouth

-- Laura (LauraLeekis@home.com), January 07, 2001.

As a general rule we, on this forum, manage to stay pretty civil, even in the heat of debate. Its one of the reasons I like it here.

I even relate to Little Bits "You will never silence me" (to paraphrase) line. However if we use a little reason and common sense maybe the fundies wouldn't feel compelled to "witness" to those who have "been there, done that" or those who have heard it all before and have rejected it for their own reasons.

I often hear the word "share" connected with the prosthlyzing activities here. Lets think about that. For a sharing to take place it requires a willing giver(which we apparently have) and a willing reciever which we obviously don't have.

Its like visiting someone. They offer you a meal. You say "no thanks, I just ate. I just came to visit." They become insistant. You relent and say "I'll just have some coffee." They say, "no, you must eat or we'll be offended. We mustn't let you starve. Never let it be said we sent someone from our home hungry." You say "I'm not hungry, I just ate." They say "lets make sure and have something to eat cause I don't wanna go to hell by sending you away hungry."

This is actually a fairly accurate analogy. When the fundies are repeatedly told the prosthlyzing is unwelcome why keep it up?

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 08, 2001.

Dear Laura Leekis,

If you take offense of my definition of an environmentalist, please explain why and express YOUR definition of an environmentalist.

I am a conservationist and I and my neighbors are pretty sick of the environmentalists, based in the cities, telling us what we can and cannot do in our own yards.

-- Laura Senderhauf (gsend@hotmail.com), January 08, 2001.

A couple thoughts on hypocrisy. Should we want to be in church with the hypocrites or with the ones out in the world with them?. My choice would be with the ones in church because I would also be with the church people that are not hypocrites. I also wonder about people who would die to defend their "not being a hypocrite". Is that a matter of pride or is it a reality? Is holding on to pride worth the effort or is it best to let go and not worry about yourself or someone else being hypocritical. It's been my experience in the church that God will cleanse out what isn't good in His churches. I've seen it a lot lately-first hand experience, He doesn't let it go on forever, believe me.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), January 08, 2001.

Diane, more thoughts: Jesus came as a two edged sword. Don't know the verse. Remember He turned the tables over in the temple when the people were doing wrong there. We were given charge over the animals and the land(Genisis), we are supposed to take care of it. We are supposed to worship the Creator not the creation.

Also, if you've studied most of the major religions of the world, then you know that Jesus is the only one that died for His people.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), January 08, 2001.

Cindy: I'm gonna try to say this as nicely as I can. Re: your "Jesus is the only one who died for his people" Maybe, maybe not. I find it really interesting that the Jesus story (And I call it the Jesus story without any denigration intended at all!) is a very close parallel to the Osiris myth in the Egyptian religion of that time. It was common practice back in those days to borrow a mythological framework common to the region and insert ones own revered personage.

I don't think that takes anything away from the message but it does cause one to wonder if there's more to the message than we're commonly taught.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 08, 2001.

John, I guess it comes down to what you know in your heart(spirit). After all my years of doubt, pretending, searching in so many, many places, defying God, suicide attempts and basically giving him an ultimatum, I have found that His word is true. I wish I could explain to you just how it was for me, but I don't know the words and it isn't just a feeling, it's a knowing, not just head knowledge but everything knowledge. I told God, if there was a god, I told him, you're gonna have to prove it cause I don't believe it, but people tell me it's true so if you're there prove it. I wasn't nice about it either. I did that for years and then I said once and for all, this is it, and a little over nine years ago, he did it, how? I don't know. Why? because he loves us. That one was probably the hardest thing for me to believe. So that is how I know. I also know that Satan loves to copy what God does and he certainly does copy what God does, Satan also believes in God and he knows he doesn't have much time left to do all his dastardly little (and big) tricks.

There's a Ray Boltz song that my husband sings when he does concerts about the scars in Jesus hands(wrists). Wish you could hear it.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), January 08, 2001.

Interesting thread. In church yesterday (yes, I belong to an organized religion and it happens to be Christian and Protestant...note the "protest" part of Protestant, btw...)anyway, the focus of the sermon was on epiphanies. Topic was a lot of John the Baptizer verses. I was struck by the tone that he used: Repent! Then I thought about Jesus' approach in talking to the people, in say, Beattitudes. Or parables. Much gentler. And John admitted that he wasn't fit to tie Jesus' sandals, thus admitting Jesus' greater mission (read message.)

I think some folks like to live and preach like John The Baptizer. Scare the hell out of people. Eat wild honey and locusts. Be as if a member of a bizarre and separate sect. And others try to live and work like Jesus (as if....!)working with the poor, the despised, and teaching and healing. I guess there's this kind of variety in how Christians see their position in life.

I am sad b/c I would love to see people come to love Christians as the most reliable people that they can respect, love, and appreciate. If we are really living a Christ-like life, I would think people would be attracted to us as if we were magnets. So, something about this aggressive prosyletizing style doesn't work, imho.

As to my prejudices, I have to say that I am most prejudiced against those who don't have open minds! Is that a joke or what!!???

-- sheepish (WA) (rborgo@gte.net), January 08, 2001.

Sheepish, to touch on one part of you response: There are many wonderful Christians doing God's work, just the way they're supposed. But, if you know anything about end-time prophecy, you'll see that you'll hear less and less about them and more and more about the fakes/evil-doers, at least by the mainstream news media.

There are those that do respond to hellfire and brimstone and then there are those that respond to gentleness. I like a rip roaring sermon once in awhile, but the father I walk with the Lord the more gentleness I desire.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), January 08, 2001.

Well said, Cindy!!

-- bwilliams (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), January 08, 2001.

I appreceite those who serve a living, forgiving God, I really do. There are some of us who serve an angry God. The God who spared only Noah, The God that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah with fire, The God that drove Adam out of paradise, and the God incarnate that took a bullwhip to the money changers ! God is not all forgiveness. Hell will be over crowded.

The promise of redemption is for only those who repent of their sins and confess. The rest of the world is fuel for hell fire with no exception ! The hypocrites of the church and the world will fry together.

The main problem is that most hypocritical peple are in the organized church. They love to flock together and church is a good place to do business, run for office and pray in public. The world has changed very little since the death of Jesus. The Pharisees are alive and well dressed --sitting in the front three rows and the deacons chairs all over the world. Therefore it stands to reason that if the criminals and hypocrites are in church than God must be somewhere else. And he is ! He is only the hearts of the believers.

I'm glad to see all you Lutherans. I've heard us called the " sin boldly and request forgiveness later, Lutherans. However, if Martin Luther hadn't driven that nail into the church door in Wittenburg ?--we would all be buying our salvation from the same money changers of the temple. Never fear an angry Christian for serving an angry God !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), January 08, 2001.

Joel, I have to say that when you brought all this up a couple of weeks ago about change on the forum, I thought good point but why is he so upset? I think I'm beginning to see the forest for the trees. Thank you my friend. Talk about the knife that cuts both ways. All of this has reminded me of what those who penned the Constitution were trying to prevent. All those people who came over because those in Europe wanted freedom from their religion. I think all this has been rather scary for me. As we sit and chat, Christianity around the world is spreading at an unbelieveable rate. The message of Christ is being spread all over the world, but in the US people are rejecting God at a faster and faster pace. It is very interesting because the US was the foundation of the mission field at one time. The sad thing is that Korea is beginning to send missionaries to America. This forum demonstrates why.

It is true that I have not hidden my faith on this forum, nor will I ever. In a sense Joel and I are alike in this respect as there are things which he feels strongly about and would leave before he would let them be compromised. I have always believe that if you intend to communicate with someone you have to accept all of who they are where they stand. This doesn't mean that you have to agree with them. Nor does it mean that you have to keep your feelings quiet, but it does mean that you can't pick and choose which parts of them you intend to associate with. I have kept that knowledge throughout everything on this forum. I have not asked John Leake to quit expressing his beliefs about politics or religion. I have not asked JOJ to quit expressing his beliefs about Population, even though I vehemently disagree with him. In my opinion we each always have the option of ignoring and deleting that which we don't want to hear. It seems to me some here want free speech as long as its something they want to hear. for those who want to discuss homesteading I suggest they only click on homesteading topics. Generally you will find you will avoid most disquieting subjects, although people are not asked to leave their beliefs at the door there either. I recently started a list for conservative christians because I felt that I needed a place to go where I could discuss homesteading from a Christian perspective without having to justify my beliefs at every turn and someplace where I could get some understanding of the special conditions of the Christian homesteader. There are a lot of lists available out there for special needs. There are even some for Pagans(their word not mine). I will not leave here unless forced to by conviction and principle, but I will be spending quite a bit of time to get this other list up and running. As a result, I probably won't be on as much, but I will still be here never fear. I am so thankful for all of you on this board. I pray for you all daily. My church prays for you also. God bless you.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), January 08, 2001.

Some wise words Joel and Sheepish.

Cindy: I am truly happy for you that you have found Christ and He is a living presence in your life as he is in the lives of many who do not necessarily share the fundamentalist view of things.

Once again tho, and this is not an attempt to get into another big argument/discussion, you misunderstand the gist of my most recent post to you on this thread. I don't believe the little factoid I mentioned takes anything away from either the man or message of Christ but it is a verifiable fact that there are numerous similarities between the Osiris myth and the Christ story. I might however challenge some commonly held beliefs. Doesn't it make you wonder and marvel at the whole thing?

It does me. I'm fascinated by the ancient world and the common symbols used thruout the world religions and I seriously doubt if my soul is at risk as a result of it.

Joel is right about the angry God and the gentle, loving God but how many Gods are there? Only one from what I can tell, with countless attributes, just like us people. We can focus on the angry God if thats what we want or we can focus on the gentle loving God if thats what we want. The choice is ours. Merely because the one answers your prayers doesn't mean the other is not as real and alive in the lives of others.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 08, 2001.

Sorry, what was the topic again? Oh yes....Charlie Brown and Jesus sitting in the pumpkin patch discussing politics....;-)

Couple of my favourite quotes:

"Why are you Christians so unlike Christ?" -Ghandi

"People sure are funny. They want the front of bus, the back of the church, and the middle of the road." - I have no idea who first said this one.

I like to keep my religion simple. And yes, I call myself a Christian, though I rarely get into the discussions here on this forum or anywhere else. Seems to me God gave us 10 commandments, that pretty much cover everything. Christ summed them up with one golden rule. But we mere mortals love to rationalize, criticize, justify, and split hairs ad nauseum.

Not offended at all, Diane, probably a good workout for the ol' brain cells to process other perspectives and points of view from time to time.

-- Chelsea (rmbehr@istar.ca), January 09, 2001.

One thing that I think is important to remember is that a belief system is not the truth. Its only what you THINK is true. Thats why there is so many of them all over the world. Imagine if you were a christian and you died expecting to see Christ and there sat the Buddha! Or visa versa. Would your whole life have been wasted? Thats the problem I think. Of course if you get value out of your belief I guess it really doesn't matter whos right and you can respect others who have different ways of thinking....Kirk

-- Kirk Davis (kirkay@yahoo.com), January 10, 2001.

From the moment I found this forum I have been hooked. It is the first place I come to when I get online, and most times it is the only reason I get online. I for one hope that none of you stop posting about your beliefs or convictions. I feel that debate (as long as it doesn't degenerate into name calling) is healthy for everyone.

My problem with hypocrites seems to be aimed more at the "paulians" than at the "christians" Paulians, is my term for those people who seem to spend more time concentrating on the "you shouldn't do this" and "you'll burn in hell for that" parts of the bible.

My community is very religious, as are most rural areas. I have not been overly bothered by my baptist neighbors. I do try to be respectful, and they return the favor. (With the possible exception of sending their kids down to invite me to church.)

What I see in most of the christian posts on this board is true conviction, and sincerity. I admire that in anyone. I have always believed that you should never be afraid to stand alone. Most christians would probably say that they will never have to stand alone. Good for them.

I don't know who said it, but I read a quote once that said "If there was not a God, it would be necessary for man to invent one". Just more food for thought.

-- Wayne (plefor@hotpop.com), January 10, 2001.

"I think maybe I should go back to school and do a doctorate in sociology or something and use this forum for my thesis. A real microcosm of the world." [diane]

***********************************************

BINGO Diane! We're all guinea pigs in somebody's master thesis! Maybe HIS master thesis! :) We tend to forget what an infant the Internet, and by association, this Forum really is. We're still in the toddler stage, trying to figure out the rules. And then we find out they're still being written. Let's face it. Instant postings. Instant responses. From people you would otherwise never have met in your life. This is a trip! Enjoy the ride.

I'm not one to propose a million rules about Internet etiquette, 'cause it would just bog things down. Well, okay. Maybe just one. "Count to ten before you hit, SUBMIT."

DOREEN - I've just GOT to respond to...

"There were not guns in the year 0, but if you remember correctly, Peter carried a sword. Precedence set."

That's true Doreen, and as I recall, Peter used it against the priest's servant Malchus, much to the consternation of Jesus. [Put up thy sword into the sheath]. Peter didn't accomplish much with his Errol Flynn sword play, now did he?

"Why are so many peacemakers and passive resisters killed in violent ways? Because they aren't armed"

Well, let's see now. JFK was taken out at long range. MLK was brought down. Reagan was ALMOST taken out at short range. Ditto for Wallace. All the King's horses and all the King's men (and all the King's guns)...

Thanks for listening, Doreen. You're a good sport.

(:raig

-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), January 10, 2001.

Craig, my main point is that Jesus didn't expect us to go through life with no ability to protect ourselves physically. Yes, He healed the man Peter harmed. Also, regarding vilolence in general, it isn't inanimate objects that harbor evil and ill will, it's people. The best way to illustrate the point was to oversimplify,imho.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), January 10, 2001.