I hope by starting a second thread I did not offend anyone.With that said can we ALL please stop w/ the religion in every thread? and can we all agree not to try to change each others religion to fit our own? Like the subject line says "different" not clones. I started 1 by asking "whats your sign" and yes at first I got PO by some of the answers but I quickley got over it and saw the humor,what I can not get over are the 17 e-mails I got telling me I am everything from a devil worshiper to a misfit of our society. GIVE ME A BREAK!! If this forum is going to turn into a place where alittle fun can not be had then so be it but please stop w/ all the GOD will get me stuff!! I do not judge ANYONE on their beliefs and would like the same done to me. I for one would like religion left out of the posts unless it can be in a positive way or a post on only religion. I am sorry to carry on like this but its getting real old to open e-mail and read about how I and my family are all going to hell unless I find God. I will not be returning any of the e-mails sent to me that contained such language. Thank you all for listening and have a good day.

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), January 05, 2001

Answers

Amen! renee Amen! Im with Ya.

-- Trendle Ellwood (trendlespin @msn.com), January 05, 2001.

Renee, It would be really hard for Christians not to answer from their viewpoint, that is Christians that are truly walking in the light, that Christian wouldn't be able to separate and it wouldn't be fair to ask them to. However, the attacking and threats, etc. are not a Christian viewpoint. I've only had one negative e-mail in more than a year of being on here. So the non-believers must not be sending much negative mail( Maybe not all of you e-mails are from a condemnming side, maybe some of them are from over zealous new Christians that don't know how to express their true concern). I do think it's quite fair to ask not to be attacked or have anyone try to persuade you when you've asked not to be.

It's our task to present the gospel and the Holy Spririt's to work in the person and that person's free will to choose. It is also our task to pray for that person.

I hope Christians will stop and think about this and give it over to God. A soft answer turns away wrath.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), January 05, 2001.

As a participant on the forum whose entire life is guided by Jesus, I would like to comment. Your request to have "religion" kept only to those threads specifically discussing it just cannot be done by those homesteaders who, like me, actually try to live their faith every second. It is akin to asking us not to breathe. Having said that, I am so sorry that some folks apparently tried to convert you to our faith via comments by e-mail. I see no difference between Christian- bashing and "unbeliever"-bashing", especially among friends here on the forum. I appreciate recent topic listings such as "joke,R" and "what's your sign"..this specificity allows me to bypass them completely because I already know they hold no interest for me. Perhaps you and others felt the same about the topic "Bible cake"? Christians are burdened to pray for others to find Christ and to be loving and caring to ALL people. This does not mean that we endorse the beliefs of others, because we are commanded by God to present His word to the world..and so we do.Folks who e-mailed you telling you you are going to hell unless you believe in Jesus are correct in their statements (sorry), yet very unloving in their approach. In my 52 years of walking around, it has been my experience that the singlemost turn off for unbelievers is a Christian zealot who does not display a love for their fellow man. Love, tact, kindness and prayer should be the hallmarks of Christianity....so fellow Christians, keep on keepin' on, yet have a care that just as you feel persecuted by anti-Christian sentiments on the forum, unbelievers should not be castigated, but quietly prayed for. God bless.Romans 3:23

-- Lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), January 05, 2001.

..."Love, tact, kindness and prayer should be the hallmarks of Christianity...."

Lesley, I like your style, and I am so glad you stuck around here!

Amen!

-- sheepish (WA) (rborgo@gte.net), January 05, 2001.

Man, poor renee shes just getting more unwanted teaspoonfulls of religion. Cant you people get the point. Lesley your letter was very nice and you sound like a great lady but if unbelievers should not be castigated but quietly prayed for as you say, then why on earth did you have to add the line "Folks who e-mailed you telling you you are going to hell unless you believe in Jesus are correct in their statements" Lesley isnt this just more castigation. I myself just wish that everybody would take their religion to the religious web site of their choice and let this be the homestead forum that it is soppose to be.

-- (trendlespin@msn.com), January 05, 2001.

OK. To answer the original question "are we different"? You Bet. I have recently purchased a small 5 acre homestead about 10 miles from town. This is the "all american dream". All electric house (yuck) and way bigger than We really need. In the short time here, I've begun to question whether this has been the smartest move on My part.

I have increased my debt load and that bothers me. We purchased this place for $40,000 less than it was appraised for. With the money made from the old place we immediatly had "equity". But I'm having a problem w/ the debt. I can afford the payments, but I really don't like the idea of having payments for 30 years.

Here's what I'm thinking. Sell the house and 1 acre. Leaves us w/ 4 acres and a pole barn. And little or no debt. Put in a septic and set a trailer here. Or fix the pole barn up and live in it.

I mentioned these thoughts to a couple of folks at work yesterday and they looked at me like I had 2 heads! I can ask questions like this here w/o fear of ridicule because we're different here. So let me have some "Non mainstream" thoughts on this idea.

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), January 05, 2001.

Maybe it's time all those perfect people on this forum, you know the ones who pray for all us bad people,the ones that never say anything bad about there fellow man, the ones that always help their brothers when they need help, the ones that lead by example. The ones who's closets have no skeletons. The ones who's house is made out of glass, to give some of us bad people a break. By now I'm sure there still must be a perfect person still out there reading this. If so,e-mail me, I'm still waiting to met one! In the mean time, reread your good book,take an example from Hoot and save me a seat. Some of us just have enough to do staying safe and happy! I don't think anyone on this forum will be setting next to Charley Manson in the end. " The Creator is tough,but he ain"t blind"

-- Larry (WI) (SorBckRnch@tznet.com), January 05, 2001.

I would like to point out COUNTRYSIDE is a great homesteading magazine that I have been reading for many, many years. NOT ONCE do I ever recall seeing anything about religion, especially christian religion. So saying that is a natural part of this forum is pure unadulterated bullshit!! There is a religious thread on this site, however, it is interesting to note it is hardly ever used. Why? Could it be because you MA christians couldn't use it to ram you mythic beliefs down unwilling throats.

-- JLS in NW AZ (stalkingbull007@AOL.com), January 05, 2001.

Larry, here is where you are wrong! Christians are NOT perfect. Every human being is a sinner - the difference? Christians are sinners saved by grace. Only God is perfect. God knows I have made many mistakes and sinned much, still do. I stive to live as God would want me too but there is no perfection there. I have been saved by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross and you and everyone else here can be too if you will only accept Him into your heart, which by the way according to the Bible is the only way we can have everlasting life. It's not what we do. That's all I will say except to say that I pray that everyone on this forum will come to know the peace that only Jesus can give. God bless you all.

-- bwilliams (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), January 05, 2001.

Romans' 3:23 states, "ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God." I sure have not met any perfect folks either and do not expect to.....John, since Neil & I are debt-free for the first time in our lives, I can relate to your angst regarding a 30 year pay off for your homestead. Four acres and a pole barn is a great start to be debt-free, especially if you add a trailer to the mix for those old creature comforts. The last few months, I have found myself to be physically ill on a long-term basis (maybe MS) for the first time in my life. If this had happened before June, we would have been seriously hurting financially. It sure is a blessing to know that our new homestead is safe from the banks. I highly recommend that you follow your gut instinct..let somebody else have a 30 year mortgage and you have the debt-free life style with your garden and your decreased anxiety! God bless.

-- Lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), January 05, 2001.

OK, I know I'm going to be ducking bullets on this:

This thread reminded me on one word: Inquisition. One dictionary definition: An official investigation, esp. one of a political or religious nature, characterized by lack of regard for individual rights, prejudiced on the part of the examiner, and recklessly cruel punishments. A second: (Rom. Cath. Ch.) A former special tribunal, engaged chiefly in combating and punishing heresy.

Another thought is of Senator Joe McCarthy, where you had to prove you weren't a communist, which he found under every bed.

Let's keep the common decency of respect for each other's viewpoints even if they are 100% polar to our own.

As I noted on the "What is your sign" thread, I personally don't see a major conflict between astrology and Christianity. One takes guidance from the stars, planets and moon. One takes guidance from the Bible, the word of God, who created the stars, planets and moon. Same ultimate source, just a different interpretation.

You can send all of the e-mails you want. I know how the delete key works.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), January 05, 2001.

I'll keep my opinions to myself if the tree hugging liberals will keep their opinions to themselves. Everyone has a different view point. This is America....everyone has freedom of speech. Learn some tolerance and by all means use the delete button. It is your right to do so.

-- Amanda in Mo (aseley@townsqr.com), January 05, 2001.

Well said Amanda!

-- Lena(NC) (breezex4@go.com), January 05, 2001.

The fastest way to make someone NOT want to hear about your religion is to continually cram it down their throat. I'm a Christain, have been for 30 years. Even I can't stand all religious discussion on this forum.

A thought for the religious zealots-I know of many people who do not want to go to heaven, they prefer hell as a destination. Now they may change their mind when they get there, but point is God gives people a choice of where we want to go, why don't you do the same?

-- debra in ks (solid-dkn@msn.com), January 05, 2001.

Well it seems my point has been once again twisted towards religion,but thats ok because I refuse to waste anymore time on such a pointless subject.I know what my beliefs are and I will not subject you all to them,I do not need to for I know I can not change you or open your minds. It is sad how closed minded so many of you are,imagin all that you are missing and how maybe outside beliefs could be tied into your religion.I am printing this {yes i figured it out!} for my children to read when they are older as a good example of how religious convictions can pull apart a community of people and just how important it is to be a nonjudgemental person. I truely believe in the laws of nature and in what comes around goes around,with that said I would like to thank all of you for opening my eyes and letting me see the true side of each of you.No one can say what happens when the heart stops ,but I know when it happens I will have been the best person I could and I will leave w/ that peace in my soul. good day

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), January 05, 2001.

John, 4 acres, pole barn, no debt. Sounds like the way to go to me. We did it 13 years ago and have never been sorry. You can always add on, fix up, or whatever as time goes by.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), January 05, 2001.

It looks like the sign for some of these folks should be, "Keep off the Grass."

Pisces, those who are born on March 7 are "He who brings order from chaos"...unless you are Chinese then Im a Fire Monkey.

-- William in WI (thetoebes@webtv.net), January 05, 2001.

The reason I didn't post on the first thread was because the first few replies were "we're christian and happy and others are not and that's why they're not happy-praise the lord". I do not believe that the bible was written by god, I think it's a book full of prejudice, violence and vulgarities, yet I refrained from saying so. Christians' lack of respect and tolerence for other points of views(I know not all are like that) is repulsive to me and so now I state my views. Those who choose to show appreciation for dieties outside of Christiandom are also homesteaders, liberatarians, patriots, and happy loving people. I love my family, find peace in working with animals and my land, am well known for my generous nature as well as my ferosity in protecting all in my care, as well as my and their liberty. Homesteaders are different because we appreciate simplicity and nature. That is why we come here despite religious and political differences: we have something in common. Sending blessings and prayers of support are expressions of caring and won't be unappreciated. Praising your diety for the beauty about is non- threatening, however judging others by their religion is prejudiced and unwelcome. So obviously the answer to the question of how are we different as homesteaders vs those who aren't is NOT Christianity.

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), January 05, 2001.

Renee, I am sorry that you seem to be getting the brunt of the non- christian bashing. There are I am sure many more people on the forum who also are not Christians, however like myself, they normally choose to not become involved with religious debate. Like politics, it is a subject that tends to get quite volitile. I read some of it and pass over some. As for the emails that you received, well that is just bad manners and there are a few people creating some bad kharma for themselves. Funny though, and maybe I am mistaken, but wasn't America populated by emmigrants(homesteaders) looking for freedom from religious persecution?

-- Terri (terri@tallships.ca), January 05, 2001.

Renee, I haven't read the other thread, but I am very sorry that some people feel compelled to threaten that G-d is going to 'get' you. First, what a bad witness! Second, seems to me more like we 'get' ourselves, and he is there when we finally decide we need him. There is a verse that says, you shall know them by their fruits.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), January 05, 2001.

I have a dear friend who is a strong Roman Catholic. She and I have talked frequently about religion and the checkered past of her church. But one thing she said would very much apply here and that is this: SHOW ME YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN, DON'T TELL ME.

Renee, I am truly sorry that you have been subjected to such criticism for an attempt at some light hearted fun. If God didn't intend some use of the stars in the heavens, then why did He use a star to guide the wise men?

As far as the origin of the Bible, I take it with a grain or even a box of salt. I have no doubt of devine inspiration but I sure do question the intentions of all the editors, translators and scribes who may have taken license along the way. I have heard a minister preach on the differences. For instance, Thou Shalt Not Kill in the ancient texts actually was thou shalt not kill in anger. Big difference when you think about it but the Bible has lots of instances when killing was done in anger and by direction of God. Grain of salt, big one.

Jump on me if you wish, but I would really like to see lots of folks just lighten up and get a life. If you want to live in a religious dictatorship, there's still Iran.

-- marilyn (rainbow@ktis.net), January 05, 2001.

something occured to me when I read this thread....we could use a new heading "Enter at your own risk" for those threads that might nip you in the butt when you innocently walk into what you *thought* might be an interesting thread.

Or maybe it could be called " Warning-this ones like spreading manure into the wind!"

Where is Ken when we could use a little clarification?!?!

-- Sarah (heartsongacres@juno.com), January 05, 2001.

Uh, apparently my feeble attempt to redirect the topic line wasn't to successful eh? Oh well.

Christian and Pagan alike, you all should be ashamed of yourselves. Ain't any of you being "tolerant or Christ like". Somebodys Momma needs to wash all Y'alls mouths out w/ soap! This is getting dumber by the minute.

I like a good argument as much as the next person, But this is pointless. YADA, YADA, YADA!

-- John in S... IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), January 05, 2001.

Please note that many forget that "FREEDOM OF RELIGION" can also mean "FREEDOM FROM RELIGION".

I appreciate the freedom from aspect. So, please, consider sharing your beliefs with your neighbors, who truly know you, and can appreciate your value in their lives.

Thats what I do without a god guiding me.

-- Anne (HT@HM.com), January 05, 2001.

Well, y'all could come on over to my sick goat thread and help me out, if you need something to do...

John, our first place was 3 acres to which we added a lovely (I'm jesting) very used single-wide mobile home. The woodstove would have been better used as a yard ornament.The snow we dragged in on the bottoms of our boots never did melt inside the kitchen door...I think you get the picture. It was lovely! I really mean it, as it was our first home. We put it up a few feet and built storage under it, behind the skirting. We used to crawl under there to get our canoes out...amongst the spiders.

You can live anywhere if you've a mind to it. I say go for it! I would personally like to get out of mortgage debt asap. We are SO close, but you see, our last little dribble on our mortgage is the equivalent of an entire homestead in some parts of the country. I just don't think about it and just keep paying b/c we are committed to staying here for a while. But your logic has a great deal of merit! DO IT! And good luck.

-- sheepish (WA) (rborgo@gte.net), January 05, 2001.

Peeking in the door to see if it's safe....all clear,so far. Coming into the room,tentatively. Didn't get wacked,so it must be OK.

I'd add to Ken's post, Our Creator's web of life.

Since I've wrapped diameter tapes around thousands of trees,I expect I've hugged the most trees, here.

I'll live my whole life and never figure out how someone can be a Christian and not have respect for what our Creator gave us.

I've had that discussion with a minister and his wife.It concerned litter(yeah my big pet peeve) and we all agreed that we could not see how people could claim to be Christian and then trash God's country.This is His, down to every speck of dirt.When you disrespect that,you disrespect Him.

So please explain to me how you can believe in God,but not care about His world?

Running rapidly from the room, ducking bibles.

.

-- sharon wt (wildflower@ekyol.com), January 05, 2001.

I'm with you renee. I like a good religious debate now and then but I really don't like having religion force fed to me. I believe I have good reason to believe as I do just as I'm sure the rest of you do, even the fundies. Lets leave it at that because all the wittnessing in the world aint gonna change what I believe in my heart so save your collective breath fundies and I'll do the same.

To the fundies who think you're doing us "heathens" a favor by quoting chapter and verse at us when you don't agree ought to think about this.

You complain about "politically correct" speech but attempt to publically shout down and privately intimidate those who don't share your world view, which you're welcome to, as long as you respect my right to the same. Do the words "mutual respect" for the rights of others mean any thing to you? How about "common courtesy"? or even "common sense"?

You fundies might be surprised to learn however that I agree with you that our spiritual life is an integral part of ALL of our lives and is at least partly responsible for leading us to the homesteading way of life. From the quality of the thought and the posts incidentally opposing your point of view it should be evident to the discerning that the post was made by a thoughtful, intelligent, passionate person like yourself who believe what they believe for good reason, at least good enuf for them, and that should be respected.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 06, 2001.

Renee, you go girl!

I'm with you here. I got to ask three questions. Why out of all the religions it's always the christians that put you down? I never got e- mail from a Muslim, Buddhist, Humanisum, Judaism, or even a Satanist that tried to belittle me, how come?

What's wrong with me being me? I'm not a lost sheep looking for his shepard.

-- hillbilly (internethillbilly@hotmail.com), January 06, 2001.

Wow.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), January 06, 2001.

i love you ,you love me we're a happy family...can we get on with life now ?

-- teri murphy (mrs_smurf2000@yahoo.ca), January 06, 2001.

I am an Atheist

-- Hendo (OR) (redgate@echoweb.net), January 06, 2001.

This type of thread is starting to remind me of when I'm cooped up in the house with the kids for awhile. Someone is always stepping on the other's toes. And it seems to go on and on and on. Hurry Spring!

To be honest, I'm just about sick of this bickering and carrying on. Let everyone live his life they way they want to. It's not like they have never had the opportunity to hear about Jesus. More than likely they haven't accepted this belief as true. If a person were to change his mind or heart in this direction the option is always there. And if there is a change of heart it will happen according to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, not anything you have said in an attempt to persuade. Let your example be your testimony!

I am a fairly new christian and what I have witnessed both at church and in this forum has really made me reconsider if this is for me. Now that isn't your que to email or convince me otherwise. I will decide on my own. Just be aware this bantering turns people off!

I for one am turning a deaf ear (or should I say blind eye) to any more of these religious threads. And if you email me about this, I will hit the delete button.

SO STOP IT! Let's get back to the way we used to be. PLEASE!

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), January 06, 2001.

John, I almost forgot to say I like your idea to get debt free. If your spouse will go along with it, why not?

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), January 06, 2001.

Who can wonder why we experience events like what happened in Bosnia.I find this thread and many others like it on this forum unbelievably sad.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), January 06, 2001.

Oh yeah John, FWIW the mobile home idea is a good one. If you wanna go really cheap used ones can be had for next to nothing if you shop around and don't mind some sweat equity. We bought a used double wide, well insulated, 3 br, 2 baths etc, 26 x 56', put it on a basement with well and septic for less than $35,000.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 06, 2001.

Renee there is a lot of people on your side . i also think thers to much religion. but why dont you post the nasty e mails you got? let us all know who the mean mouth ones are. keep on keeping on. Bob in se,ks.

-- Bobco (bobco@hiy.net), January 06, 2001.

Bobco,I was thinking about doing that and then I realized I would only be lowering myself to their standers and I do not want to go there. Private e- mail needs to be kept that way, it insures privacy. Trust me it was hard but I think I made the right move. They know who they are and what they have said, and hopefully will think alittle bit harder before hitting the send button.

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), January 06, 2001.

Hopefully the storm is over now. Rock a bye , go to sleep. Sweet

dreams everyone.

-- (trendlespin@msn. com), January 06, 2001.

My answer is no. I will not stop sharing my beliefs. They are who I am and a part of me. I have never asked anyone on this forum to stop posting what they believe. I have always responded with my own views, but I have never requested that anyone stop posting their own views. So the answer is no. I have read all of your beliefs, even when they were personally repugnant to me. I have always said what I thought, and I always will. What you are asking is wrong. There have been times when people said things on this forum that were very upseting for me. I have repeatedly heard my Saviour and Lord denegrated and named called. This is utterly repugnant to a Christian, and yet I have never felt that I should ask anyone of you to stop displaying your beliefs. It makes me very angry that you would ask that of me. Oh and by the way, not one of those e-mails of Renee's are from me. There is only one person on this forum that I ever privately e-mailed to witness to(this was a long time ago), and even he can tell you that when he complained about it, I discontinued e-mailing him. This person and I have had quite a raucous relationship on this forum. Over and over again we have discussed all manner of things on this forum, bad, good, and indifferent. I personally think that it has done us all good. If we can't handle it we can always take a step back and take a breather. I know of at least one christian who is doing that right now, because they were getting a little overwhelmed. And yet this person did not ask you all to quit being who you are. They took a break. It may be uncomfortable for you to hear thwat you are going to hell, but it is also uncomfortable for us to hear all manner of things expressed here. This is what free speech is all about. Free speech is not the ability to only hear the things that make you happy. Free speech is the ability to say what you believe. Free speech does not guarantee that you can say what you believe without dispute, but it does guarantee that you can say it. What you are asking is to say what you believe and then deny others the right to express what they believe. You definitely do have the right to ask that people not privetely e-mail you about topics that annoy you. I also want to say to all the Christians here. Please do not continually e-mail a person, after they have asked you not to. This is impolite, and it hurts people's feelings. Renee has the right to ask that you not do that. Everybody please consider others. It would definitely bother me if someone continually e-mailed stuff to me denegrating christianity. I also want to thank you all, because you have considered my feelings and have not tried to lash out at me. I do you the same turn.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), January 06, 2001.

Little Bit: No one is asking you to be anything or any one other than who you are. You don't seem to get the gist of the complaints. We (those of us who are not fundamentalist Christians) find it equally offensive when, no matter what subject is broached, the religious angle is brought up repeatedly and almost predictably, in the spirit prosthlyzing(sp?) and not apparently in the spirit of "sharing" but in the spirit of converting. I know you believe you are called upon to behave in that way but many of us find it to be presumptious, arrogant and disrespectful, despite your protestations of good will, we don't experience it that way. If you wish to communicate something its usually a good idea to do it in such a way that shows respect for others and in a language they will respond to.

I don't think Jesus has commanded you to "Go forth and be as obnoxious as you can in my name." Simply live your life as a Christian. Show me, don't tell me. It gets really tiresome on our end.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 07, 2001.

John I agree with you 100%. The Christian preaching is so blatant that when I first started reading this forum, I started to doubt whether I would ever fit in with "Homesteaders" because I am agnostic and I think most religions are cultlike. I just try and be nice to everyone and treat them like I want to be treated. Not necessarily a commandment, just common sense.

Laura

-- Laura (LauraLeekis@home.com), January 07, 2001.

look at the picture below....

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), January 07, 2001.

Renee, I respect your courage, conviction and grace.

-- Laura Jensen (lrjensen@nwlink.com), January 07, 2001.

Yeah, ditto for me what Little Bit says.

It seems the last month or so there have been offensive posts from all points of view. Conservative Christian discussions have been interupted and bashed by non-believers, too, so it is going both ways. This forum is no longer reflecting homesteading community, but rather townies moving to the country and picking fights with the neighborhood.

I don't know where all this nastiness is coming from, but I do ask all of you to proof read your posts before hitting the send button. Check your attitude that you are conveying. Refrain from bashing, and if you must say something negative, say it politely.

I must say, I have received nothing but positive e-mails from participants and lurkers of this forum. I do answer direct questions, but pretty much refrain from private e-mails because there has been that history of nasty emails between others on this forum.

Now, as far as religion, there is no such thins as "Feedom FROM Religion." Even if we were to shut-up, which would violate our freedom of religion, you will never be free from religion. Even if you never left your property and had no outside contact, you would develop a religion. It is already written in your heart and on your soul, it is in your mind and will pursue you all the days of your life. Religion is a part of human nature. Face it, God is going to get as all, one way or another.

-- Laura Senderhauf (gsend@hotmail.com), January 07, 2001.

From a past post that stopped me.... "I'm with you here. I got to ask three questions. Why out of all the religions it's always the christians that put you down? I never got e-mail from a Muslim, Buddhist, Humanisum, Judaism, or even a Satanist that tried to belittle me, how come?"

The first thought that came to my mind was "because they don't care. They are part of the world, serving their own master, not the risen Christ, so they're okay with where you are."

A Christian will care. And some will come across hard, some soft. Either way, you'll hear from a Christian because they know that there is more to the world than just living in it and appreciating its beauty and the way it turns. They inherently know there is a battle going on every minute of every day for each soul that is in this world.

Don't despair. That Christian next door will still be praying for you.

-- Cher Rovang (fullcircle@nidlink.com), January 07, 2001.

I truely don't believe it was any Christains /that have been filling my private e-mail with dirty jokes & porn & viruses/ for quite some time now!!!!! And I have NEVER e-mailed any one who was not a Christain trying to say anything about religion!!!!

So I think there has been plenty of disrespect for others all the way around here!!!! Now the ones who sent me dirty jokes & porn & viruses -----when I tried to answer you----it was a fake e-mail address---So I'm going to ask right now---Will those who have sent me porn & dirty jokes & viruses/ when I posted something on the CS forum that you didn't agree with--Will you PLEASE STOP!!!! Thank you very much!!!!!!!!!

I have never e-mailed anyone/ any thing about my religion-----but if those who have received e-mails that were offensive to them about religion----It seems that at least those used their own e-mail addresses & their names(maybe I'm wrong-I don't know)---it is awful getting porn & dirty jokes & viruses & sent by unknowns--

As I have told several, that I keep in contact with by private e-mail from this forum----it really is scary when you can't have an opinion & receive filth in your e-mail & those are tooo big of cowards to even say who they are!!! It hasn't been fun---I didn't know people could be so coward & offensive at the same time!!)

I will still continue to speak up if I don't agree with some one/ or something---as I EXPECT anyone to do the same if they don't agree with me----but this stuff with sending people offensive private e- mails is too much!!!!No matter what they are!!!!!!!

I'm sure it is a violation to renee(about someones elses religion) as much as I felt violated(by the porn & dirty jokes & viruses)--I can take what ever any one answers me on this forum -- I MAY NOT LIKE IT----but I can deal with it----but the private e-mails & not useing your name or an correct address that I can reply back is not fair !!! (I can't even block you name--as you don't use one!!) Sonda in Ks.

-- Sonda (sgbruce@birch.net), January 08, 2001.

Sondra: you do not need a name to block a sender. If you are running windows 98 (the only one I know anything about) Use the Tools (this is in outlook or outlook express) First highlight the offensive message, select Tools, click on Message Rules, then click on Blocked Senders, click on the Add button, then o.k. and it's a done deal. Take control and be done with it!!! They can go from several different addresses, but the jerks that are sending the porn couldn't have that many friends, and probably become bored pretty easy anyway. (IMHO)

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), January 08, 2001.

FYI, just a few words of advice, if you're gonna sell your four acres and a house..make sure it's to someone you won't mind seeing for the next 30 years :)

Ted

-- Ted Hart (tedhart71@hotmail.com), January 08, 2001.

Sonda, are you sure that the person sending you the viruses and porn is a member of the forum? I have noticed a HUGE increase in the amount of spam in my mailbox since I started posting to this forum. I suspect that someone is harvesting the email addresses from the forum and reselling them. It is quite easy to do and quite common. The person doing this probably doesn't even know or care what this forum is about, it's just a cheap and sleazy way to make a buck. Sherri in IN

-- Sherri C (CeltiaSkye@aol.com), January 08, 2001.

I have been thinking again, which is always dangerous...

Anyway, let's say that someone poses a question to the forum on varieties of tomatoes to grow. They get several answers about tomatoes, and then they get a bunch of answers like: "I grew tomatoes for years, but I never was really satisfied with my life until I raised sheep. Sheep are more interesting than tomatoes, so if you want to have a satisfying life, raise sheep." Of course, several sheep raisers will post their concurrence. The thread will go on...

Then someone asks on another post about what kind of woodstove to buy. Several answers come back about brands. Then someone will post about how they enjoy using a woodstove, but they don't use it as much because they are outside a lot more, because it's lambing time and there's so much work to do because they decided to raise sheep. After all, raising sheep is the most satisfying thing to do in life. Then there will be several answers from sheep raisers about how they got started and how much it meant to them to become a shepherd. Then the woodstove question poops out.

Then someone post a question about how to get out of debt. They will get several answers about cutting up credit cards, calling a debt counselor, selling their farms, etc. Then, guess what, they will get several answers about how you can make money raising sheep, and how good it is to be able to make your own money, and after all raising sheep is the right thing to do. Then several other sheep raisers will reply and talk about sheep for a while.

Do you see where I'm going with this? I love sheep and love reading about them and everything to do with them. It doesn't mean that everyone else does, though. Somehow, a whole bunch of threads get kidnapped by the sheep fans as they love to talk about how great their lives are. Sure! It's important to you!!! Yes, it changed your life!! But it doesn't have much to do with all the topics that it gets attached to. People log on to read about tomatoes, woodstoves, and frugality, and they get dosed with sheep info on every thread. They might even love sheep and plan to get them real soon, but they don't want to read about them on every thread.

Wouldn't it make much more sense to get the sheep folks together on a thread devoted to sheep, or several, or a separate forum, and talk sheep night and day? Invite everyone over for a great conference on learning and sharing!! Tell people it's easy to raise sheep and you'll love it....then leave it at that?

I think that this is what the Christian/non-Christian conversation here is really about. It's not the anti-Christians against the Christians, really, nor the anti-sheep people vs. the sheep folks. It's really a request for consideration that sheep don't need to be discussed on every thread, nor Christianity. It ends up sounding like that b/c we are all so vested in our viewpoints.

That's enough from me. Just my $.02.

-- sheepish (WA) (rborgo@gte.net), January 08, 2001.

Sheepish, that's it exactly! I love the way you make things so clear. Thanks.

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), January 08, 2001.

Would these be "lost" sheep? It's not quite apples for apples (to a Christian) but I understand what you're saying & appreciate your desire to stop the division on the forum.

-- Lenore (archambo@winco.net), January 09, 2001.

Sheepish, I "baaaa" to your description! Its right on target. Can we get back to chicken talk now?!

-- Anne (HT@HM.com), January 09, 2001.

Hi Sheepish! Very nicely put indeed!

-- John Hill (john@cnd.co.nz), January 09, 2001.

I've been away for a couple of weeks. I see nothing has changed here . . . .

Sheepish, I think you put it quite well. I hope others will pay attention. You might want to put on your flak jacket for the likely accusations of trying to control content again.

-- Joy Froelich (dragnfly@chorus.net), January 09, 2001.

Finally - SENSE! My two bits: if I feel that I really MUST talk about sheep than I should at least stick to what sheep have done for ME. Then it's up to YOU to decide if sheep might be able to do the same for YOU.

-- Deborah (ActuaryMom@hotmail.com), January 09, 2001.

Hi Joy, welcome back. Well, you have a point there I guess. But I am definitely not trying to control the content. I made a suggestion as to the management of the discussion. But it was just a suggestion. I'm a Christian and like the topic of Christianity. But in the same way my neighbors would never answer their door if, every time I saw them I talked about Jesus in response to just about everything, I think it's appropriate to consider that there's a time and a place for everything (Ecclesiastes, I believe!)including talking about Christianity. But just my opinion.

-- sheepish (WA) (rborgo@gte.net), January 09, 2001.

Sheepish,

Sheep?

I think maybe that was a bit of an exageration; wasn't it? First of all Christainity is not just a religion. It is a way of life. A Christains belief is their life.It's a big part of who they are. Most of you on here are very nice, and try to be good folk. From what I see you usually try to treat others well.

I have seen way fewer ugly comments from Christians on this forum than I have non Christians.No that does not makes the few ok. I read the "What's your sign" and this thread and haven't seen anything ugly from Christians. I guess I missed the original " Are we that different" thread.

And Renee, You said your self ( what's your sign was just for fun) There were a lot of answers that weren't astrological.It was apparent everybody was just putting in their 2 cents worth. Just for fun!

And it seems to me you should have a beef with the ones that sent you those e-mail. BUT, Saying all Christians exist to preach hell fire and damnation or to shove their beliefs down your throats is like saying all homesteaders are backward radicalist commies. ( YES WE ARE THAT DIFFERENT )to answer the question. But hopefully we can still be friends if we are nice to each other. It is not uncommon for Christains to talk about, refer to and thank God for every aspect of their life. Weather we are with our goats, in our garden, the hen house, at work, at church, or on-line; He is still there.And as such it would be very hard for us to feel like we have to deny that relationship just to talk on this forum. It's who we are.As Christians and homesteaders. I am a Christian.This is me. I am not trying to convert ( as it has been said ) anyone. My relationship with Christ comes out in my everyday conversation. The non Christians may as well put ( CHRISTIANS KEEP OUT! ) on all their threads.That would be no more rediculous than me haveing to put religous on all mine; incase I should mention God's name in one of them. I read a lot of the threads, even if just for entertainment, because I find it interesting. I have not noticed anyone continually trying to " CONVERT " folks.

Renee, I am sorry someone is being mean to you. There is a difference between wittnessing and beating someone over the head with your Bible and saying "TURN OR BURN!" Unfortunately this type of cruelty is sometimes mistaken for Christianity.By Christians as well as non- Christians. It is indeed NOT a wittness for Christ.And hopefully as these Christians grow in Christ they will learn that. My heart aches for you. I am truely grieved that you have been subject to this sort of behavior. If these people were Christians I hope they have the conviction to appoligize.

-- Bonnie (josabo1@juno.com), January 09, 2001.

I wonder if any of you know your ten comandments? Or is just a Sunday only religion?

Because other religions don't believe in christianity, you really think they don't care? How stupid can you be? And for thoses of you that think only country folks are christians, again your wrong. It doesn't go nessasary with the teritory.

Religion is big business. There are plenty of perverts practicing christian religion, What hipocracy!!

I agree with john, I don't want to hear it. I didn't come to this forum to hear about religion. I want to know what's happening with your homesteads, I want to hear what's going on with your animals. I want to know how to build an odd house. If I want religion, I'll go to church, and if I go to hell, it's my choice. Don't waste your prayers on me.

-- hillbilly (internethillbilly@hotmail.com), January 10, 2001.

Hillbilly, prayers are never wasted.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), January 11, 2001.

Cindy, do you KNOW when to STOP? Geez, and some of you guys just don't understand WHY we get tired of hearing about it. I know this sounds rude and I don't know how to make it not. I do not mean for it to be rude but geez Louise! Can't we talk about chickens or something without the injection of christianity? maybe we can have another forum for christian homesteaders where you can talk about religiosity all you want and not hear us whine.

-- Laura (LauraLeekis@home.com), January 11, 2001.

Bonnie, perhaps the answer to Renee's question is "Yes, we are that different!" Because I could see the anology of Sheepish's post quite clear. Goats are not my religion but they are surely a way of life like my religion. And like Sheepish said about her sheep, I am sure folks are tired of me talking about my goats in EVERY SINGLE THREAD, alot like some of the Christians and non Christians are tired of the constant "preaching to the choir" and "condeming those who don't believe to hell" Goatish in TX

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), January 11, 2001.

Vicki, I know what Sheepish meant. I get it. I just thought it was an exageration. Not unlike everyone harping about Christians talking " God talk " on every thread. For instance; I don't talk religion on every thread. Just as you probably don't talk goats and I know sheepish doesn't talk sheep on EVERY thread.

I think that just mentioning how God has used that situation to teach me something or has blessed with this situation,is not the same as trying to convert someone. It is simply something mentioned in passing conversation with friends and fellow homesteaders. And what do friends and homesteaders talk about? Shall we just answer every question as if we were a text book? No, because we are not. And it would be a very boreing forum if we were.

Don't you all see ; that's what makes this such a great place! We are friends and fellow homesteaders!And we can be different and understand that's what makes us tick! If you think I am weird because I believe in Jesus and you believe in WHATEVER, why would you care if I pray for you to my God. To you I am praying to someone who does not exist.

Consider the sorce and go on. I think we all have to do that sometimes. And let's stop all this petty fueding! And treat each other like friends again.

-- Bonnie (josabo1@juno.com), January 11, 2001.

just goes to show what my grandma always told me. "If you can't get someone to talk ask them about religion or politics."

-- Mary R. (cntryfolk@ime.net), January 12, 2001.