Paul Wilcher
His partially decomposed body was found in his home, still seated on the toilet. According to the Washington Times, "...he was investigating the theory of an 'October Surprise' conspiracy during the 1980 federal election campaign. He had been interviewing an inmate who claimed to have piloted George Bush to Paris so he could secretly seek to delay the release of 52 American hostages in Iran."

Sid Adger
Mr. Adger, a Houston oil supply company executive and Bush family friend, died in 1996 of unknown causes. Adger was the mysterious businessman who approached General James Rose and asked him to help George W. Bush avoid Vietnam by recommending him for a pilot position with the National Guard.

General James Rose General Rose recommended George W. Bush for a pilot position with the Texas National Guard. He died of unknown causes in 1993. He was immediately buried and no autopsy was performed.

Orlando Letelier
He was torn to bits by a car bomb on the streets of Washington DC just before he was to testify against the Chilean dictator Pinochet. After the bombing, CIA Director George H. W. Bush told the FBI that there had been no Chilean involvement whatsoever. In 1991 the post-Pinochet Chilean Supreme Court asked George H. W. Bush if he would submit to questioning. BUSH REFUSED.

Ronni Moffit
She was Letelier's assistant. She and her husband were riding in the car with Letelier when the bomb exploded. Mr. Moffit survived. Ronni didn't.

Amiram Nir
He was a former Israeli agent who was in Jerusalem with George Bush during Iran Contra. He went under the assumed name of Pat Weber. Nir was scheduled to testify to the Senate subcommittee and it was feared he would reveal the truth. He perished when his aircraft was shot down with missiles from the helicopter of a man called Gene Tatum, 25-year CIA deep cover agent.

Senator John Tower
He was appointed by the Reagan/Bush Administration to chair the bipartisan committee to investigate the Iran/Contra scandals. He directed the Tower Report and had all the Iran Contra documents that told the real story. He was killed in an airplane crash later in Georgia in 1991. Also killed was his daughter, Marian.

Mario Ruiz Massieu
An apparent suicide, Massieu was facing charges that he laundered money for the cocaine cartels. A Houston, Texas jury had found that $8 million in his bank accounts was paid to him by cocaine cartels.

Steve Kangas
His web site, Liberalism Resurgent, was meticulously researched and presented such a problem to the "real boss" of George Bush, Richard Scaife, that he hired a private detective to look into Kangas' past. Steve Kangas was found in a 39th-floor bathroom outside of Scaife's offices at One Oxford Centre, in Pittsburgh, an apparent suicide. Mr. Kangas, a very prolific writer, left no note. He had brought a fully-packed suitcase of clothes with him to Pittsburgh. He bought a burglar alarm shortly before he left for Pittsburgh. Why did he need a burglar alarm if he was going to commit suicide? An avowed advocate of gun control, he nevertheless bought a gun. What was he afraid of? Why did he go to Pittsburgh? After his death, his computer was sold for $150 and its hard drive wiped clean. Everything in his apartment was thrown away.

Mohammed Zia al-huk
Dictator of Pakistan, and knew all about Iran/Contra, the training, funding, and arming of narco-terrorists like Osama bin Laden. In August 1988, the same day George Bush got the Republican nomination, his plane crashed into the ground with all engines running. The Pakistanis kept the bodies around (in violation of Islamic custom) for weeks, awaiting US experts. They showed up three weeks later and never checked the bodies. Why?

Malcolm Baldridge
Commerce Secretary May 1987. Baldridge was familiar with the Bush family ties to the Communist Chinese. He died in a mysterious horseback riding accident.

Karla Faye Tucker
She was executed in spite of enormous protest from the public, even those religious groups that advocate the death penalty. Even Pat Robertson thought that Karla was truly repentant and asked George W. Bush to spare her life. He refused. Afterward, in a Talk Magazine interview, this stalwart of the Republican Party made fun of the woman whose death warrant he had sanctioned. How compassionate!

John Fitzgerald Kennedy
An internal FBI memo reported that on November 22 a reputable businessman named George H. W. Bush reported hearsay that a certain Young Republican had been talking of killing the President when he came to Houston. The Young Republican was nowhere near Dallas on that date. According to a 1988 story in The Nation, J. Edgar Hoover said in a memo that Mr. George Bush of the CIA had been briefed on November 23rd, 1963 about the reaction of anti-Castro Cuban exiles in Miami to the assassination of President Kennedy. George H. W. Bush has denied this, although he was in Texas and cannot account for his whereabouts at the time.

Hale Boggs
He sat on the Warren Commission, which concluded that President Kennedy was slain by a lone assassin. Later, in 1971 and '72, Boggs said that the Warren Report was false and that J. Edgar Hoover's FBI not only helped cover up the JFK murder but blackmailed Congress with massive wire-tapping and spying. He named Warren Commission staff member Arlen Specter as a major cover-up artist. Congressman Boggs' plane disappeared on a flight to Alaska in 1972. The press, the military, and the CIA publicly proclaimed the plane could not be located. Investigators later said that was a lie, that the plane had been found.

George de Mohrenschildt
A rich Russian oilman, he was described with his wife as being the two people friendliest to Oswald at the time of the assassination. De Mohrenschildt was the man who moved Oswald to Dallas. In the late 1970's, shortly before the first meeting of the House Select Committee on Assassinations, de Mohrenschildt started seeing a new doctor in town. He quickly became mentally unstable, at which time his wife convinced him to stop seeing the doctor. They moved away and left a false forwarding address. On the same day that the Committee tried to contact him about testifying, he was found dead of a gunshot wound. In his personal address book was the entry Bush, George H.W. (Poppy) and Zapata Petroleum Midland (the oil company owned by George H.W. Bush).

Barry Seal
He was supposedly murdered by Medellin cartel members, but a 6-month investigation by Sam Dalton, attorney for three of the accused murderers, into Mr. Seal's life and death uncovered some interesting points. The accused's cartel connections were well known, but not their association with Oliver North's enterprise. Mr. Seal was a drug smuggler, up to his armpits in smuggling cocaine for - guess who? - the CIA. During the penalty phase of the Columbians' trial, testimony by one government witness on the activities of Mr. Seal was so damaging to the government that 2 of the jurors wanted to change their verdict to "not guilty". The personal telephone number of George H. W. Bush was found in the trunk of Mr. Seal's car.

William Colby
This former CIA director disappeared in an apparent boating accident, and a body was later discovered (minus the life jacket Colby's friends insisted he always wore while boating) and buried promptly. John DeCamp, a lawyer from Lincoln, Nebraska, and Colby's close friend and confidant, said Colby's death was not an accident. He stated that Colby was prepared to disclose that missing P.O.W.'s were working for a dope smuggling operation orchestrated by General Colin Powell, Pentagon official Richard Armitage, and George H. W. Bush.

Mrs. E. Howard Hunt
In December 1972, while George H. W. Bush was at the Republican National Convention, a United Airlines flight carrying Mrs. Dorothy Hunt, CIA operative and wife of Howard Hunt, (CIA operative and suspect in the Kennedy assassination) crashed. Believed to be carrying $25,000 in "hush money", she died in this crash.

Vince Foster
It has been conjectured that Mr. Foster was killed by Republican operatives for George Bush after he found evidence of Bush involvement in the death of Mrs. E. Howard Hunt when reviewing the White House Travel Office files.

Danny Casolaro
He was working on a book that tied together the scandals surrounding the presidency of George H. W. Bush. He told his friends he was going to "bring back" the head of the Octopus. Instead, his body was found in a hotel in Martinsburg, West Virginia, on August 10, 1991, an apparent suicide.

Don McCoy
Mr. McCoy had agreed the day before to turn state's evidence in an FBI investigation that threatened some of El Paso's most prominent business leaders. On February 19, 1988, he took off from El Paso International Airport, banked to the right and headed southwest for approximately 2 ½ miles before his plane slammed into the I-10 right-of-way and exploded. With him was his secretary and her 11-year old son. All three were killed.

Olof Palme
He was the prime minister of Sweden, assassinated in 1986. Oliver North, the golden boy of the Bush/Reagan machine, had met with Mr. Palme to discuss the possibility of obtaining false end-user certificates for the plethora of weapons that were being purchased, so that they would seem to have come from a country other than the U.S. Mr. Palme refused to participate, after the plan was presented to him. He was dead within weeks.

Archbishop Oscar Romero
Archbishop Romero was a true hero, speaking out against atrocities by a Bush/Reagan-backed fascist government. He refused to appear in public with any army or government personnel, and was a voice for the thousands of tortured, slaughtered and oppressed in El Salvador. He was shot in the back while preparing Mass. The death of Archbishop Romero is one among many. There is not enough space to list the hundreds of thousands who died under Reagan/Bush-backed, right-wing governments.

David Wayne Spence
David Wayne Spence was executed in Texas in 1997 in spite of compelling evidence of his innocence. Two of the State's witnesses were co-defendants who testified to avoid the death penalty, one of whom changed his story three times in response to discrepancies. He later testified that D.A. Simons encouraged him to alter his testimony. Two other witnesses for the State were jailhouse snitches who recanted later and stated that Simons offered them favors in exchange for testimony. All of this and more was supposedly reviewed by Governor George W. Bush, but Bush refused to commute his sentence, and did not order the Board of Pardons and Paroles to review his request for clemency. It is a myth that a Texas Governor can do nothing to stop executions; the Board will almost always go with his recommendation. Bush washed his hands of the matter and did nothing. Reasonable doubt is not a factor in Texas justice.

Gary Graham
Gary Graham was convicted of the robbery and murder of a white man in 1981. Nearly two weeks after the crime, the state's prime witness could not pick Gary's picture out of a photo line-up. Mr. Graham was arrested with a 22 caliber pistol. The victim had been killed with a 22, but the police firearms examiner determined that Mr. Graham's gun DID NOT fire the fatal bullet. Four witnesses said Gary Graham was with them, miles away from the convenience store, when the murder occured. All four took and passed polygraph tests. George W. Bush, predictably, expressed his faith in the Texas judicial system and allowed Mr. Graham to be put to death. Mr. Graham maintained his innocence to the end.

William Casey
William Casey was CIA Director during the Reagan/Bush Administration. He died 2 days before he was to testify about his and others' involvement in the Iran/Contra scandal.

Lt. Colonel William Harris, Jr.
Lt. Col. William Harris was one of two commanding officers who could not perform George W. Bush's annual evaluation covering the year from May 1, 1972 to April 30, 1973. They stated in their filing that "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of this report." Fortunately for George W. Bush, Lt. Col. Harris is not here to verify his 1973 statement. He's dead.

Lt. Colonel Jerry B. Killian
Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian was another of George W. Bush's commanding officers. He cannot testify in a court of law as to George W. Bush's dereliction of his sworn duty. Lt. Col. Killian is dead.

Edmond J. Safra
Banker Edmond J. Safra died mysteriously when a fire swept his Monaco penthouse apartment. His banks had been used for laundering money by the Bush Iran/Contra traitors.

Charles Ruff
Attorney Charles Ruff successfully defended President Bill Clinton against the smear campaign by the reich wing Bush machine. He died of an accident in his home. Details of the accident are unknown. Ruff had been assisting Vice President Al Gore's legal team during the recount proceedings in Florida, where a battle for the right to know the will of the people is raging.

Lars Erik Nelson
Lars-Erik Nelson was a reporter for the New York Daily News and a constant critic of George Bush throughout the 2000 Presidential campaign. He wrote a series of articles on how Bush was trying to steal the Florida election. Found dead in his living room of an apparent stroke on November 21, 2000, the very day that Bush lawyers were making their arguments before the Florida Supreme Court.

Henry B. Gonzalez
Henry Gonzalez, former Congressman from Texas, was the Chairman of the House Banking Committee during the Reagan and Bush years. He oversaw hearings on the S&L fiasco which nailed Neil Bush, and tried to have both Reagan and George Bush impeached. In a speech before Congress on July 27, 1992, Gonzalez revealed that George Bush signed a top secret National Security Decision directive, known as NSD 26, ordering closer ties with Saddam Hussein and Iraq. Henry Gonzalez died of unknown causes on November 27, 2000.

Charles M. McKee and Matthew Gannon
Charles M. McKee, ostensibly a military attache for the DIA in Beirut, Matthew Gannon, CIA Deputy Station Chief in Beirut, and three others were on board Pan Am Flight 103, which exploded over Lockerbie, Scotland. They were part of a counterterrorist team in Beirut investigating the possible rescue of 9 American hostages in Lebanon. The McKee team uncovered evidence that a rogue CIA unit called COREA, based in Wiesbaden, was doing business with a man called Monzer Al-Kassar, a Syrian arms dealer and drug trafficker. Al-Kassar was part of the covert network run by U.S. Lieut. Colonel Oliver North. Outraged that the COREA unit in Wiesbaden was doing business with a Syrian who had close terrorist connections and might endanger their chances of rescuing the hostages, the McKee team decided to fly back to Virginia unannounced and expose the COREA unit's secret deal with al-Kassar. They never got there. "For three years, I've had a feeling that if Chuck hadn't been on that plane, it wouldn't have been bombed," said Beulah McKee, 75, Charles McKee's mother, to Time Magazine. Four months after her son was killed for his efforts to expose the CIA, Mrs. McKee received a sympathy letter from George H. W. Bush. Mrs. McKee has never been satisfied with the government's version of events.

http://www.bk2k.com/bushbodycount/bodies.html

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), January 01, 2001

Answers

Far out. Now there's a site carefully (if perhaps inadvertently) put together to filter out the true raving lunatics. It goes WAAAY beyond just stretching credibility and solidly into the land of unsupported speculation fueled by pure blind hatred.

Cherri, if you swallow any of this you only make yourself a laughingstock. The strongest "case" you've been making lately is that you should probably be institutionalized before you hurt yourself. You don't need debunking, you need thorazine.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), January 01, 2001.

Happy New Year folks!!

As I attempt to shake off the effects of our celebrating last night (and this morning) I find Cherri’s outlandish post a humorous elixir. I especially enjoyed the Vince Foster and Henry Gonzales pieces.

There is no doubt in my mind that Foster was killed for knowing too much, but it sure as hell wasn’t the Republican’s that did it.

Henry B. died of ‘unknown causes’? The guy was in his late eighties or early nineties…..DUH.

Cherri, you are already an embarrassment to yourself. However, this forum needs to have a village idiot and you have slipped right into the role seamlessly.

-- Barry (bchbear863@cs.com), January 01, 2001.

Please provide the link to the Onion.

Happy New Year's or is it April Fool's?

-- (nemesis@awol.com), January 01, 2001.

Don't let the memes get you down Cherri. Its only a matter of time until all Americans realize who Dubya really is.

-- Mother of Jehosophat! (for@cryin'.outLoud!), January 01, 2001.

A picture of Cherri, the village idiot:

-- (Tired@of.her.crap), January 01, 2001.

Cherri, your village called; their idiot is missing...

-- Uncle Bob (unclb0b@aol.com), January 01, 2001.

Cherri,

I remember most of those incidents well. Thanks for the reminder. ;-)

-- Black Adder (dark@places.com), January 01, 2001.

Tell 'em you were joking, Cherri. Uh... you *were* joking, weren't you? ...Cherri?

-- CD (costavike@hotmail.com), January 01, 2001.

CD, I don't take this completely seriously, although it does make you stop and ponder. I dare anyone to "prove" any one of these to be untrue. I remember seeing a list like this about Clinton, and felt it appropriate to show how easily it can be done. Hell, if the names and date of those around me who have died were to be written with vague notions attached with "reasons" tagged on, I would be thrown in the slammer for life.
There is one note of absolute truth in this though, which shows Bush's real character and should give anyone who pretends to believe his claim of being in any way compassionate a reason to sit back and think.... The documented fact about his portrayal of Karla Faye Tucker She was executed in spite of enormous protest from the public, even those religious groups that advocate the death penalty. Even Pat Robertson thought that Karla was truly repentant and asked George W. Bush to spare her life. He refused. Afterward, in a Talk Magazine interview, this stalwart of the Republican Party made fun of the woman whose death warrant he had sanctioned. How compassionate!

In front of many witnesses he joked about how she supposedly begged and pleaded for her life as she was being put to death, where in reality she went quietly. I consider his doing this akin to the looser who gets off on telling "dead baby jokes". This attitude doesn't belong in the white house, it doesn't belong in the office of a governor of any state in the United States. It shows a complete lack of self discipline, compassion or even social maturity. As for those of you who may attempt to claim that this did not happen, it is a well documented fact that was reported in the media after he did it. I don't have the details at the moment, I heard about it months before the election. The fact that this was not brought up during the election shows how differently the campaigns were run. The Bush camp had a database of everything Gore had said publicly in the past 30 years which they went to and compared to anything he said in the campaign and the discrepancies were blown up out of proportion in the media ad nausium, where the Gore campaign tried to stick to policy and public displays of Bush's ignorance.

This fact (the database on Gore) was bragged about during the campaign by one Bush's main campaign managers.

The fact that even the smallest thing Gore messed up on (like the name of someone he was with at a certain time and place, instead of another time) was given as "proof" of his penchant to lie, where Bush's lack of basic knowledge about the way government is run and global situations appear to be accepted without question.

So this list should bring doubt into the minds of anyone with an open one, especially due to the fact that he has openly bragged about his "list" of enemies-people who have gone against him in Texas- which he blatantly uses to "get back" at them by any means possible. Usually going against the issues they favor. In other words, if you go against something he wants, you pay by loosing something you want-even if it is a good thing he might otherwise have upon. But that's a subject for another post.

-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), January 01, 2001.

You actually think that Gore ran a positive campaign? Gore's team did everything they could to make Bush look stupid. If you want to counter that Bush did this to himself, it is obvious that Gore made himself look like a liar by his sloppy comments.

-- Dr. Pibb (dr_pibb@zdnetonebox.com), January 01, 2001.

“In front of many witnesses he joked about how she supposedly begged and pleaded for her life as she was being put to death, where in reality she went quietly.”

Cherri, where do you dredge up this bullshit? What witnesses? How about some facts for a change. BTW, I have yet to hear you show any remorse for the two people that Karla Fay Tucker hacked to death with an axe. Death by lethal injection was much too good for this evil person.

-- Barry (bchbear863@cs.com), January 01, 2001.

This is certainly more credible than the Clinton body count that the ditto heads have been spewing for the last 8 years.

-- (Dubya @ proven. killer), January 01, 2001.

"I dare anyone to "prove" any one of these to be untrue". Cherri, you know it is impossible to "prove" a negative.

-- (Paracelsus@Pb.Au), January 01, 2001.

Thanks Cherri. What's really scary, I mean really very scary, is how many people on this board do not realize that Bush and the GOP just executed a coup of democracy in this country. This is not a republic, it's a representative democracy, and it was just overthrown. That so many people could still be pro-Bush when he just performed a tyrannical usurpation of our most cherished right, the right to elect our own president, is horrifying.

Keep on deluding yourselves, folks. You're betraying your own ideals and you're betraying your country. Someday you'll live to regret it -- when you realize just how far the GOP has stripped your freedoms and left you powerless.

-- Patriot (who@can.see), January 01, 2001.

Barry, You say Cherri, where do you dredge up this bullshit? What witnesses? How about some facts for a change. BTW, I have yet to hear you show any remorse for the two people that Karla Fay Tucker hacked to death with an axe.
First of all, I said nothing that could be constrewed as approval for the crime she committed, I show no remorse for the two people she killed because I, in no way, am responsible for their deaths. I have not given an opinion one way or the other about whether she should have been put to death for her crimes. By attempting to portray me as "the bad guy" in this discussion, you are changing the subject from Bush's behavior.

As for the source of the information, see for yourself...
Would an article in TIME magazine (who name GW Bush person of the year) be mainstream enough for you?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,39180,00.html

Although he said he was anguished by the decision, in an interview in Talk magazine, writer Tucker Carlson described Bush mimicking the woman's final plea for her life.
"'Please,' Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, 'don't kill me.'"

-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), January 01, 2001.

As far as Danny Casolaro is concerned, this was a murder to make it look like a suicide. Danny was investigating the theft by our government of the Promis software by Inslaw. He kept on stumbling on bigger stories in the course of his investigation, e.g., BCCI money laundering, gun and drug deals with the Contra's and drug smuggling into the USA. He wrote his brother that his brother shouldn't be suprised to find Danny run off the road because of the high level people involved in these scandals. He was found with both wrists cut, a suicide note and all his paperwork missing. It would have been labeled a suicide if it wasn't the letter that his brother produced.

-- Black Adder (dark@places.com), January 01, 2001.

I wonder if he killed anyone whil dee dubya eyeing?

-- Mother of Jehosophat! (for@cryin'.outLoud!), January 01, 2001.

Do you think that Rush will highlight any of this stuff. Jeff already is running it. Makes you wonder. *<)))< /b>

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), January 01, 2001.

OK

Z

-- Z (Z14Y7@aol.com), January 01, 2001.

I like Tucker Carlson and have no reason to doubt what he ‘reportedly’ said. When I see him live, saying the same thing, then I’ll buy it. One of the main reasons that GWB got my vote was his unrelenting support of the death penalty, while under fire from the weak livered liberals from the far left. Why would any decent person take up the cause of a piece of trash like Karla Fay Tucker? Oh, she was so sweet in those interviews, and she had found god and all of that fucking bullshit. The bitch KILLED TWO PEOPLE WITH A HATCHET!! How could ANYONE show compassion for a cold-blooded killer like this? I want GWB to remove scum like Karla Fay Tucker from the face of this earth, just don’t take so long in doing it.

-- Barry (bchbear863@cs.com), January 01, 2001.

The following is from a bio on Karla Fay Tucker:

“In 1983, Karla Fay Tucker was found guilty and sentenced to die for the murder of Jerry Dean and Deborah Thorton. Tucker, a prostitute and drug addict, used a pickax to viciously hack both of them to death while they slept, leaving the three-foot long tool embedded in Thorton's chest. In her confession, Tucker graphically recounted how she had experienced sexual orgasms with each of the blows. While in prison awaiting decisions on her numerous appeals, Tucker became a darling of the American Christian fundamentalists--led by Pat Robertson--after she married a prison missionary and claimed to have accepted Jesus as her savior. Despite a massive public relations campaign by an unusual alliance of Amnesty International and the religious right to have her sentence commuted to life imprisonment, the State of Texas executed Tucker in 1998.”

Lovely child this Karla. She got to live for 15 years after chopping up these two folks. What if she had not been caught? They should have strapped her sorry ass to a gurney and let the kin of those she killed hack her up in the same manner.

-- Barry (bchbear863@cs.com), January 01, 2001.

"I want GWB to remove scum like Karla Fay Tucker from the face of this earth, just don’t take so long in doing it."

Good point. When will he remove himself? It is taking WAAAY too long.

-- (bush @ scum. of earth), January 01, 2001.

Barry-

So in the face of evidence that Bush actually made fun of Karla Faye Tucker, you're going to acknowledge the evidence but not apologize to Cherri for essentially calling her a liar? Doesn't that strike you as a bit hypocritical?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), January 01, 2001.

Tarzan:

Bush may or may not have done this, but the only "evidence" I've seen so far is Cherri's allegation. Barry said he'd believe it if he got it on better authority, which sounds reasonable considering Cherri's willingness to swallow any anti-Bush idiocy, however far fetched. Do *you* have better evidence, or is Cherri's word good enough for you?

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), January 01, 2001.

This is turning into a capital punishment thread so I'll raise a more recent event. Is anyone prepared to argue that life-imprisonment is the appropriate sentence for mass-murderer "Mucko" of Wakefield, MA?

Probably there is no death penalty in MA so that is what his sentence will be unless he gets off on insanity. IMO, once he is convicted, he should be executed. God can forgive him, maybe the families of the victims can forgive him, but how can society forgive such antisocial behavior?

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), January 01, 2001.

I think Mucko was trying to make a statement about the government. Since taxes are not legal, the government uses employees of private businesses to do their dirty work, stealing the money from employee paychecks. In reality, it was the government who killed those 7 people, and that is why the public is not angry at Mucko. Deep inside, they know this is true.

-- (mucko@went.amok.gov), January 01, 2001.

Hey Ape-Man, Happy New Year dude……I sincerely hope that 2001 brings to you a continuous dose of good health and spirits. Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

You so carelessly have said:

“So in the face of evidence that Bush actually made fun of Karla Faye Tucker, you're going to acknowledge the evidence but not apologize to Cherri for essentially calling her a liar? Doesn't that strike you as a bit hypocritical?”

Evidence? What evidence? In the first place, Cherri said: “In front of many witnesses he joked about how she supposedly begged and pleaded for her life as she was being put to death, where in reality she went quietly.”

She went on to give us the ‘spin’ on Dr. Carlson which turns out to be more unverifiable bullshit rumor. Last time I checked, Tucker Carlson is but ONE person so where are the remaining ‘many witnesses’? There is no ‘evidence’ to acknowledge and your stretch to the ‘liar’ statement is outrageous, even by your normal standards.

People, you must get a firm grip on reality and let go of your poisonous anti-Bush addiction. You need to start worrying about ‘yourself’, as that should be your primary priority. This hatred you have will only drag YOU down and result in a scarred mental state. But in the meantime, I enjoy the banter.

-- Barry (bchbear863@cs.com), January 01, 2001.

mucko@went.amok.gov

You be ‘thinking’ too much!

-- Barry (bchbear863@cs.com), January 01, 2001.

"People, you must get a firm grip on reality and let go of your poisonous anti-Bush addiction."

HAH! No way! That's just wishful thinking on your part.

We listened to 8 years of crap from you assholes, now it's your turn. LOL ;-)

-- hee heee hee (just@warming.up), January 01, 2001.

“8 years of crap from you assholes”, says the scholar hee heee hee.

There’s a fetish in there somewhere.

Happy New Year birdman.

-- Barry (bchbear863@cs.com), January 01, 2001.

Tarzan don't waste your time on Barry. He's a hypocrite dumbass who first says he has no reason to doubt Time's Tucker Carlson quote then says he'll have to see a freaking interview to believe it. I guess Barry only believes things on TV. He's a dumbass that wants to have his cake and eat it too.

-- Barry is a Hypocrite (barry@hypocrite.yes), January 02, 2001.

Barry, in the first place I had an email with the information on it about him doing it at a party. Yesterday I completely restored my computer so that is lost, but found the TIME article where it states he appears to have done it in front of a reporter. Nasty little habit he has, thinking it was so funny he had to do it at least twice.

Do you still doubt he did it? Or will you demand I somehow "find" the reference to the party he did it at? (In front of a lot of whitnesses)?

-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), January 02, 2001.

Cherri, I could present you with e-mails accusing George W. Bush, Bill Clinton or any famous person with all sorts of things. If this is all that you have to base your case on it is worthless.

I'm not complaining though, for the last several years I have been embarassed by my fellow conservatives who did exactly the same thing to Clinton. Now it is my turn to watch the liberals make fools of themselves.

-- Dr. Pibb (dr_pibb@zdnetonebox.com), January 02, 2001.

Cherri wrote, "I consider his doing this akin to the looser who gets off on telling "dead baby jokes". This attitude doesn't belong in the white house". But of course, getting head while talking on the phone to congressmen is absolutely appropriate oval office behavior. I always wondered what the guy on the other end of the phone thought as Clinton came and tried to continue the conversation. Then again, maybe he hung up before the climax.

Ya know, Dr Pibb, I thought that liberals had a way with words and couldn't trip over themselves but (as this thread shows) I was wrong. You're right, it will be nice to watch the other side make fools of themselves.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), January 02, 2001.

The real fools are people like Maria and Dr. Pibb who refuse to acknowledge that a right-wing coup just occurred in this country. They are traitors to their country and traitors to democratic ideals. They are duped, shallow, scared little sheep blindly loyal to a corrupt regime that just took down the right of Americans to elect their own president.

-- Open your eyes (blind@fools.com), January 02, 2001.

Open your eyes, what exactly should have happened in Florida? Be precise and as specific as possible. How could either side have won it, without the other side alleging it was a right/left wing coup?

-- Dr. Pibb (dr_pibb@zdnetonebox.com), January 02, 2001.

Once when he was on a bender, George W invented a time machine, went back in time and somehow accidentally caused the extinction of the dinosaurs. So you can add them to this list.

The next day he was rather embarrassed by his gaffe, and asked that it not "get around". He explained later that he was just trying to get back in time to meet Enik, the "good Sleestack", whom he had always admired.

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), January 02, 2001.

Bemused, LOL. My son has this theory, all present events and ideas can be traced back to an episode of the Simpsons. Yours reminds me of the one where Homer went back to the dino age and sneezed to kill them off. I'm beginning to believe my son's theory.

Dr. Pibb, don't waste your time with open your eyes, who wouldn't know a coup if it bit him on the butt.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), January 02, 2001.

Maria I think you are right. I never did expect him to answer my question, but then agian I never did expect him to use that handle again. He's just another proud Gore supporter, so proud he's ashamed to identify himself.

-- Dr. Pibb (dr_pibb@zdnetonebox.com), January 02, 2001.

Yeah, like "Maria" and "Dr. Pibb" are legit "identifying" names. Traitors who support dictators never give their full or real names.

-- GOP Traitors to USA (gop@fools.com), January 02, 2001.

Image SRC="http://www.geocities.com/wizardofwhimsy/fuehrerbush.jpg">

-- Your New President (Thanks@'publicans.com), January 02, 2001.

-- Your New President (Thanks@'publicans.com), January 02, 2001.

SPECIFICS OF THE RIGHT WING COUP

I. Republican state election officials and others engaged in acts of official misconduct and deliberate fraud and were part of a conspiracy to suppress voter turnout through illegal methods:

1. Before the election, Republican Secretary of State Katherine Harris spent $4 million of taxpayer funds to hire a firm with ties to far-right activists to purge voters who were allegedly felons. The list of "felons" included 8,000 American citizens – mostly minorities – who committed only misdemeanors and thousands of innocent people – again mostly minorities – with the same names as felons. By this action almost 58,000 U.S. citizens were denied due process and the right to vote.

2. Secretary Harris unlawfully certified the election results from 20 of Florida’s 67 counties without requiring – as mandated under Florida law for elections decided by one half of one percent or less – that they conduct automatic machine recounts. While publicly denying knowledge of the failure of almost a third of Florida’s counties to be in compliance with the law, Harris’s office privately knew the facts.

3. Secretary Harris unlawfully accepted and certified the results of hand recounts in six Florida counties that produced an additional 400 votes for George W. Bush while rejecting the results of hand recounts in other counties.

II. Republican county election supervisors and others engaged in official misconduct and deliberate fraud:

1. In Duval County, a pre-election purge of the voter rolls unlawfully removed 22,000 voters – mostly African Americans -- who voted in the primary election in August but were denied the right to vote in November. Another 27,000 votes cast on election day were discarded, primarily in African-American sections of Jacksonville. This represented one-fourth of the votes in certain precincts. The Republican Supervisor of Elections unlawfully withheld these facts from local Democrats until the deadline for requesting a recount had passed.

2. Lake County: The Republican county canvassing board rejected all ballots in which the voter not only correctly penciled in his or her choice in the appropriate oval beside the candidate's name but also emphasized that choice by writing in the candidate's name, just below a line that carries the instruction "WRITE IN." This is a willful violation of the state of Florida's election law directing that ballots be counted where the clear intent of the voter is evident. Miami-Dade County: Investigations by news organizations have uncovered several hundred ineligible persons, including Cuban citizens, who were permitted to vote on election day. These investigations of only a fraction of the Miami-Dade election districts suggest a total number of ineligible persons being allowed to vote numbering in the thousands. In addition, the methods used to secure and vote absentee ballots that were found by the Florida Supreme Court to be unlawful in 1998 were repeated in this election, resulting in an untold number of fraudulent ballots.

3. Broward County: In addition to evidence of voting by thousands of non-citizens, we believe there is sufficient evidence to uncover a conspiracy that involved controlling precincts through workers that enabled the fraudulent introduction of pre-punched ballots into certain precincts, a conspiracy to generate fraudulent absentee ballots, and unlawful activities to suppress voter turnout including the purposeful assignment of non-working voting machines to precincts that were heavily black and Democratic.

4. Seminole and Martin Counties: Election supervisors have already admitted providing favorable treatment for Republican voters who requested absentee ballots that was denied to Democratic and independent voters. Republican election workers were permitted to correct incomplete absentee ballot requests, and those requests were honored even when the Republican election workers failed to correctly complete the forms.

5. Okaloosa County: The election supervisor directed that optical scanning machines be programmed not to reject erroneous ballots, resulting in an inflated number of uncounted ballots.

Our examination of ballots in four other counties is producing evidence of post-election ballot tampering to reduce the number of overvotes (Jackson), a massively inflated number of overvotes in only the presidential race (Gadsden), and statistical anomalies in the election results (Liberty and Calhoun).

III. Vice President Gore won more votes in Florida

When the Florida Supreme Court ordered a statewide manual recount on December 8, Bush's lead was only 154 votes. More recently, news media recounts in Lake and Broward counties gave Gore 294 votes, putting Gore ahead of Bush for the first time - by 140 votes. As more manual recounts are completed throughout Florida, Gore's lead will grow into the thousands.

-- Thanks 'Publican Traitors! (good@hatchet.work), January 02, 2001.

-- Citress Heiress Harris (breaks@law.com), January 02, 2001.

-- Gore getting some exercise (good@job.Al!), January 02, 2001.

Right-wing coup that shames America

(Unless you're TRAITORS Ain't, Maria, Dr. Pibbs, Flint, Lars, Uncle Bob, etc.) Continuing unofficial counts reveal the full extent of Al Gore's lead and the massive abuses that have put George W. Bush into power

Will Hutton

Sunday December 24, 2000

The Observer

I never thought I would live to see it. There has been a right- wing coup in the United States. It is now clear beyond any doubt that the winner of the Presidential election was Al Gore. In Florida the votes are being counted unofficially in a way the Supreme Court would not permit: he was already 140 votes ahead when counting stopped for Christmas and his final lead promises to be in the thousands. Nationally he leads by over half a million votes. What has happened is beyond outrage. It is the cynical misuse of power by a conservative élite nakedly to serve its interests - and all of us should be frightened for the consequences.

The issue is not George W. Bush's conservatism, opponent though I am of what Bush plans to do; a democracy only has vitality and political tension if its philosophy and stream of thinking is articulated and pitches to win elections. The incontrovertible abuse is that Bush has won power despite losing, and critically he only pulled off this feat because the Republicans control the Supreme Court. The Right has subverted pivotal US institutions to win power - a campaign of which the discrediting and attempted impeachment of Clinton was part - and in the process disgraced the legitimacy of US democracy at home and abroad, and undermined conceptions of the rule of law. It is a poor augury for the twenty-first century.

In Britain the response has been woeful - itself a token of our own lack of hard democratic instincts. The commentary, especially in the right-of-centre press, has been to decry Gore as a poor loser and to insist that he had to accept the rules of the electoral game, respecting the votes in the US electoral college which, when Florida was lost, gave Bush the election. But as the great liberal defenders of freedom, Karl Popper and Isaiah Berlin, both argued when unjust, illegitimate governments win power through subverting the rules it is our responsibility to contest them.

The nine-member Supreme Court, apart from the heady decade of the 1960s when it advanced the cause of civil rights in the South, has always been a bastion of a regressive conservatism. In the 1930s it tried to rule that key elements in Roosevelt's New Deal were unconstitutional. Its defence of the sovereignty of states rights has been fundamental in extending capital punishment and allowing bible- belt states to resist implementing federal legislation banning violence against women. Yet its general prohibition in interfering in a state's rights has been overturned in one instance; the highly politicised intervention in Florida.

The more you examine it, the more outrageous the now famous judgement was. What the Court had to do to serve its political purpose was to find a way of acknowledging a sovereign state's rights and the continuing legitimacy of hand recounts in closely contested elections - after all George W. Bush had passed a law as Governor in Texas in 1998 endorsing hand recounts - but at the same time give the election to their Republican champion by finding that events in Florida were a special case. This was tricky. In the first place, even the conservative judges shared the unanimous view that it was reasonable for hand recounts to be undertaken because, as the judgment concedes: 'Punch card balloting machines can produce an unfortunate number of ballots which are not punched in a clean, complete way by the voter.' Consequently individual states are obliged, when the winning margin is tight, to mount an effort to find out what the 'clear intent' of each voter was. In other words Gore was completely within his rights to demand the hand recount.

The five conservatives had a problem. How could they deliver the coup? The solution was elegant. The process was too subjective, said the Supreme Court, unless the Florida court put in place even more protective measures to ensure impartiality than the Florida legislature had provided for - a position that is constitutionally impossible, as the judges knew, because it meant the Court would have to change rather than interpret Florida law. Hand recounts are thus legal in principle but impossible in practice because of possible partiality. And in a telling aside in its judgment, the Court said that hand recounts would 'cast a cloud' over Bush's 'legitimacy' that would harm 'democratic stability'. It never crossed the five-strong conservative majority's mind that the opposite might be the case; that not counting votes which would give Gore the presidency when nationally he had won half a million more votes than Bush would damage, not democratic stability, but the entire democratic principle.

But then right-wing America is not much interested in the democratic principle. It believes that its duty is to sustain America in its unique destiny as a Christian guardian of individual liberty, a place - I joke not - that will deserve Christ's second coming. It sees itself in a holy war against a liberal enemy within, and its uses every tool at its disposal ruthlessly to dispose of its foe.

The Right enjoyed 12 years of power under Reagan and Bush, lost the Presidency to Clinton in 1992 when Ross Perot split the conservative vote and pledged to continue their jihad against what they saw as his illegitimate victory from the beginning. Hence the fantasies of Whitewater. Hence the Starr inquiry into the Lewinsky affair, where now we learn key evidence was fabricated. Hence the attempted impeachment. Mud sticks, they reckoned, and even though they knew impeachment would fail, they calculated it would put any Democrat presidential candidate in 2000 in a presentational bind - association with the successful Clinton years would be attacked as an association with immorality.

But for all their efforts American public opinion remained stubbornly tolerant, sceptical of tax cuts and moderately centrist. To win Bush had to outspend his rival two to one in the last month and build on the strategic dilemma faced by Gore about the Clinton years. But even then it has taken the Supreme Court to complete the coup.

For all the talk of reconciliation Bush is building a tribal conservative administration bent on supporting business at home and asserting US unilateralism abroad. His next Treasury Secretary has been picked not for his capacity to negotiate the US and the world through the minefield of a fragile international financial system, but his interest in feathering the nests of corporate America. And so it goes on, offering the US and the world a policy and perspective not wanted by the majority of Americans.

The consensus view is that within months the whole Florida affair will be forgotten, and Bush will be installed as a legitimate US President. I don't agree. The value of democracies is they produce administrations broadly in tune with the times and will of the people, and thus able to marshal both consent and the correct policy responses for the varying crises that hit them.

Not so in America. Whether the need to respect international treaties abroad or the desire to universalise medical protection at home, the US has the man in power it did not want and whose instincts are opposite to those of the majority. This will prove a disastrous administration for America and the world, and the coup will become widely understood as a moment of partisan infamy. It is a brutal lesson for us liberals. Never, never forget the treachery and poison on the Right.

-- TRAITORS to Democracy (that's@you. andyou), January 02, 2001.

i wonder if Will Hutton will die of 'mysterious causes soon.

-- Mother of Jehosophat! (for@cryin'.outLoud!), January 02, 2001.

I can't believe you people are still having this argument. {shakes head in disgust}

-- cin (cin@cin.cin), January 03, 2001.

I can't believe cin is so STUPID she thinks democracy isn't worth fighting for (shakes head in disgust).

-- Yet Another Next-Door Traitor (have@fun.cin), January 03, 2001.

the traitors president: shrubby dubby

-- Mother of Jehosophat! (for@cryin'.outLoud!), January 03, 2001.