Another component of Y2k presents us with additional questions related to it, but less related to the computer issues and moreso to the societal ones. I'm starting a new thread to discuss those. (Thanks Doreen and Leann.)

I asked this regarding Y2k: "Why were some of us interested in embracing the concept of hard times to come, and why were others similarly interested in nothing happening? (Doomers and Pollies.) I think just from reading some threads on this Forum that people would welcome a retreat to "harder" times, just to make some sense in the world (I was going to write "sense *out* of the world! Maybe that's more to the point?) What would the world look like right now, if the worst had happened?

Any armchair sociologists out there? Or futurists? "

So....With the discussions currently going on about recession, finite natural resources, etc., Y2k looks like just one issue among many....

Why were/ARE some of us interested in embracing the concept of hard times to come?

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), December 30, 2000

Answers

I guess I wanted something to happen that would force us to change our wasteful lifestyles and take a good look at reality. Now that it didn't happen, I am concerned thhat there will not be a big change in the way we do things until we are confronted with impending or actual disaster. (Though it seems to me that we have already reached the warning-impending disaster- stage!)

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), December 30, 2000.

I'm not sure that the y2k is a big worry. But the weather is now doing so to many people that were not prepaired for a winter. and buy the time it is over they will get a better idea of what it means to be prepaired. And give it more thought and preperation For what ever might happen next. As those who are will thrive and not have to worry so. and those that whine and want some one else to take care of thier problems will be hurting and struggleing. And crying all the louder then not be happy with the increased cost to all for it.

-- Anthony J. DiDonato (didonato@vvm.com), December 30, 2000.

Here are some thoughts. I agree with Rebekah's first sentence. It would be nice to see a change from waste and also from moral decay. I see how the weather should be a warning to everyone. God used the weather/natural disasters all through the Bible to get people's attention. I think whatever big thing that might happen to cause "change" would only bring about a temporary change, the majority of people will still be people, take the easy way and find someone else to blame. People would be in a panic for a while, the government would rush in a "make everything alright" and then things would settle back to normal, or at least they would make it seem normal becasue they couldn't deal with the reality. In the words of Olivia Walton, with the way those city people are, you'd never know there was a depression on(not an exact quote).

I think the Depression Era is dear to us homesteaders because it brought people back to the basics, and hard work, (homesteaders like hard work)There are people I know that stocked up and now feel embarrassed about it, I always stock up and enjoy doing so.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), December 30, 2000.

Interesting thread, Sheepish. Cindy has it right on. I've been called a 'pollyanna', but am I worried because there is 12 inches of snow on the ground, and it's still falling? No. My son has a plow, and has been busy all afternoon, one woman who lives in a $900,000 house paid him $25 to pick up milk and bread! Under 'normal' circumstances I wouldn't let him accept the money, but this nor'easter has been predicted for 5 days! She is of the mindset, that because she has money, she has no worries! Guess again! Someday, the bottom is going to fall out then what? I think, that many of us have just decided that we need to be able to take care of ourselves. Control? Of ones own destiny/life. Your question is food for thought.

-- Kathy (catfish@bestweb.net), December 30, 2000.

We live in Southern Cal. and are enjoying beautiful weather right now. But it is kind of scary beacuse the trees are starting to leaf out and there are buds on flowering plants!!! I think the flora and fauna are very confused... We are having worries about the price of natural gas and electricity, maybe I will finally get to use all that y2k stuff after all! We have been told to conserve energy and to use only the bare minimum electrically (which we do anyway)- it amazes me that most of the folks here don't know whats going on or are completely ignoring the warnings. Many of the houses on our street would rival Chevy Chase's National Lampoon's Christmas house!! I'm really not sure what is going on with the electric company- many people feel it is just a big corporation trying to get more money- but whatever, people sure are not conserving. I tend to vascilate btw. being a doomer and a pollie. I REALLY fell for the Y2K thing and tend to feel that this way of life just can't go on. But, being practically the only one's that feel that way for miles around it is easy to get sucked into the popular culture. My focus is on health because of my profession and I am always amazed at how adversly our society affects people's health, but people are willing to forgo real health to strive for all the goodies, no matter how stressful or toxic. I don't get it. Chris

-- chris allen (herbs2bhealthy@e-mail.com), December 30, 2000.

I think hard times would center alot of folks and make them see just how hard it is to live.I know we would suffer alittle but it would make us stronger.

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), December 30, 2000.

The ice storm of '98 up here in Maine is what initiated my interests in self-sufficiency. Others got over it and went back to the normal way of things. Being prepared is actually liberating! Big ol' noreaster going on at this moment and I haven't a care because we have our generator, gas stove, plenty of food, candles, lamps, and bottled water. The conveniences of modern living make me lazy; I get a dishwasher and my dishes get piled up higher than they ever did when I had to do them by hand. Can't run it half full, ya know, and then when you figure you have enough dishes, there's leftovers which sit because ya don't want to run it half full.... hehe I never felt better than when the pump in the barn froze and I had to haul buckets from in the house-weird, but true. My sister lives off twice the income I have and is constantly crying broke with one less kid than I have and she rents from my mother who will wave the rent now and then for her. Must be nice, I think. Natural or manmade disasters change your priorities I think, and wake you up, it'd be nice if the rest of society wasn't so bent on making you see their way in personal things like child rearing and focus on more important things like what our no-holds-barred consumption is doing to the earth.

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), December 30, 2000.

I think your "making some sense out of the world" is the real motivator, if you will, for being somewhat desirous of an economic crunch. Everywhere we look it's excess on top of excess. Money isn't real, food isn't real, entertainment isn't real, even love isn't real. It seems that we have come to be a world full of people who only live vicariously through others. As Soni said in the TV thread...."someday, I will...(fill in the blank)". We have become a society without limits and seriously lacking in responsibility for our actions and inactions. If we were to lose the main thrust behind our ability to continue to delude ourselves, which to me is the surreal economics policies, we would have to come to terms with our entire outlook. I suppose my best catch phrase to describe what I see is "there is just too much of everything..." and "I loved it, but it wouldn't shut up." We are all about noise and deflection. So much so that many people can't even stand to not have some kind of electronic background noise. It literally makes them crazy.

I guess the hope would be to just get people to see that the important things in life aren't things. The old adage of "no pain, no gain" needs to mean more than building muscles to flex at the beach. (I didn't even get preachy, but as a public service announcement, a return to a God centered society is really the only thing that is going to make a big difference.... >:)- or a massive revolution. Wait! It's the same thing!)

Doooommmmeeeeenn

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 30, 2000.

Ok I'm going to be the glumy guss. (warned ya first) I believe that "hard times" Will Not center 95% of the population. It will create more gangs and crime will sky rocket. Those living off grid and out in the sticks can expect to be visited by many townies. Just 12 miles up the road in Shelby,NC crime has risen 38% and B&E has been the predominant cause. (recent plant closings have already set off the panic buttons)

I know you've probably saw the recent news flash's about Montgomery Wards closing and filing bankruptsy after 128 years of being in business. Thats approximately 30,000 people getting canned. Did you know that Wards is about the only place to get parts for older Bell & Howell Laser printers and copiers? I searched the net for 5 hours and still only Wards has toner cartridges for the B&H SSH5000LP.

My neighbor lived through the "depression" we've had many hours of discussion about those times. He affirms that people have changed greatly since then. (1) People living next door can't tell you their neighbors name. (2) No loyalty to God & Country (3) Government intervention in schools and homes has eroded the "woodshed" punishment from the depression era. (4) Youth have no respect for elders or their-selves.

So to recap Hard Times will not strenghten our country but will most likely be used as an excuse for more government rules and laws. And in my opinion hard times would cause more problems than cure.

On a positive note: We the few that are already "living the country life" will go on and do what were already doing.

Stepping down from soap box...looking for glass of lemonade. :-)

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), December 30, 2000.

I was kinda anxious about the coming of y2k, and was sorta sad when things kept going on like usual. But a lot of people don't feel like I do, like my Dad telling me he's glad he don't carry water up a hill anymore, or go out back to use the toilet. I am very thankful I can live as I do, and I don't have to worry about yard sales and auction prices going up. With all I've read in Revelation I do believe we will be going through quite a crisis, and seeing things weve never seen before.

-- Judy (allsmile@ctnet.net), December 30, 2000.

Just heard on scanner youth gang killed 5 at local mall. Police were unsuccessful (as usual) in apprehending suspects.

While monitoring the Charlotte, NC police frequencies I heard several patrol cars refuse to go into a North Meck area. They said quote "no way they're to many gang kids in there"unquote. That area is supposed to be middle class suburbia.

Very Sad.

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), December 30, 2000.

I became interested in homesteading way before I ever knew there was a problem. My reasons are multifold. First I have a desire to get some simplicity back into my own life and into my society. I prepared for Y2K, but it was always with the belief that it was never the real problem. I still believe we are headed for major problems. In fact my biggest regret about Y2K is that I really feel it solidified the public's idea that nothing bad can happen. The fact that it failed to materialize, means that many won't be ready when things do get bad. To me, the real crisis is that we forestalled the real crisis. I am afraid that this leads to tremendous complacency. I honestly believe our economy is out of control. Things can only spiral upward so long, before they completely dive into oblivion. We are headed for a major problem, and when it happens many will not be prepared, because of Y2K. There are several reasons I think this is true. The two strongest are that the US has experience unbelievable prosperity since the depression, and we are an aging society with a heavy public social obligation. The combination of these two factors along with our increasing regulation of business virtually insures that sometime within the next fifty years we will have a major problem.

The factors that lead to the unprecidented growth since the depression are extremely clear if someone bothers to reference history. Our parents and grandparents were able to establish businesses with ease in their day and age. They were virtually unregulated, and growth came as a result of that. Freedom is an absolute necessity to economic growth. Without it people are not inclined to start businesses. This can be clearly seen in "the new economy". That's right the internet. What made the internet grow was freedom. As government puts it's fingers into more and more internet businesses growth will slow. It is happening already.

The biggest thing that will guarantee a future economic stuggle is that there will be many more people for the government to support and very few people working to support them. New kids up and coming aren't going out and starting new businesses. They are going to work for already established ones. The solvency of any country relies on it's abilty to innovate. With the substandard education, and the message of assimilation that our young people are receiving, we are guaranteeing the failure of the future. Young people at one time were educated only in reading, writing, and arithmetic. with these tools they were able to go on and investigate their world. Through the efforts of those freethinking individuals we have been able to ride on their coat tails into the world we have today. This is the pattern of all of the great historical societies. There is a mad rush of growth brought about by freedom and individualism, and then there is an end to the growth through regulation and complacency. it is then the society falls apart. It is easy to see this coming in our own society, because not only do we have inadequate education that enslaves rather than frees the mind, but we also have so much regulation that innovating is becoming impossible for even those who wish to do so. This means that as the populous ages there will be no new businesses to replace the one's going out of business. Given the fact that the tax burden upon the young will become so incredible to pay for the elderly, there won't be enough money for the future. In fact those who are worried about population, better start worrying about not having enough population to pay their social security checks. In all of this I haven't even mentioned the greatest problem that wthe US will soon face and that is the loss of farming, food, and the continuing urbanization it entails. Soon it will be so impossible for the common man to sell his farm produced goods, the government will have to step in and claim ownership of all the farms in America, which brings us to where all this is ultimately heading. At some point the governemnt, unless there are radical changes soon will claim that for the good of America, all property will become state owned. They've all but done it now. When this happens, well the predictions of past communists will come true. Years ago, there was a Russian communist who said that America would one day grasp communism on her own from the inside out. If we don't take our country back, his prediction will come true. If you can't beat them join tham and drag them down with you. Y2K was but a burp, keep an eye on the future.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), December 30, 2000.

Doreen, I am thinkin' like you. Part of me LONGS for the quietness and peace of a simpler sort of lifestyle. But maybe Kenneth is right--folks have changed. Our senior pastor talks about his childhood days, growing up in a not-so-nice section of Indy in the late early 50's. He always says that back then, even the un-churched folks had a basic set of morals very close to those of their neighbors who went to church regularly. You respected your folks, didn't lie or cheat, etc., and your word was your bond, etc. Not so anymore. The moral foundations of most folks have been swept away by waves of situational ethics and moral relitivism. If it feels good, do it; the Ten commandments are too "condeming" to be placed in public places, marriages fall apart like dime watches...and out of wedlock babies aren't really something to be ashamed of anymore (hey, if we don't want the bother, let's just abort it, or leave it in the trash. Yeah, I know--they did that in Greece and Rome too--but it didn't used to happen here nearly as often as it does now. So, maybe Kenneth is right. Scary thought).

Scary, because I do believe that change has to come, if nothing else because the World is getting so wicked that if God doesn't do SOMETHING, He'll have to apologize to Sodom and Gohmorrah. And I believe that Jesus is coming soon...not that I am a prophesy expert, but there are too many recent events that go along with Bible texts. So---if I believe that he is coming SOON, then what else am I to do? I have to prepare.

Now, I have some friends who are pre-Tribbers--they think that Christ is snatching us out of here before the anti-Christ comes and sets himself up as a God in the Temple, and making folks take the mark (micro-chip?) to buy and sell, and start persecuting believers. Some are post Tribbers---they think that Christians will go thru the seven year Tribulation (as my Mom says, they persecuted the first century Christians, what makes us think we're any better than they?). And there are some that say Christ will come somewhere in the middle of the seven year Tribulation. Confusing, huh?

OK. I don't want to get into theology deeply here; lots of folks have verys strongly held beliefs. BUT...every one of those folks will agree that HARD times are a-comming--war, famine, disease, persecution. Quite honestly, I don't know WHEN Christ is taking us out of here. So I need to prepare myself and my family, both SPIRITUALLY and PHYSICALLY. Which means, as far as I am able, I need to be able to provide for the ones God has given in my care. YES, God said that He would take care of us; but He also says that if you don't take care of the needs of your family as you are able, you are worse than an infidel.

And I am sick of this world. LOOK at all the useless STUFF at the Malls. I have gotten so I hate to even go in there. Hoards of people sending their credit card debt thru the roof, spending money on flimsy, shiny faddish goods that will soon be shabby and out of style, and next year's yard sale fodder. Kids haven't the foggiest idea of where milk comes from, or how bread comes about, or that you can make popcorn in anything but the microwave. They can't picture their world without a T.V. In other words... they know very little aboout the real world; they would be lost, or get VERY angry if their "support system" (as shiny and thin and fragile as a Christmas tree bulb--I know, I broke one today, taking down the tree) gets shattered. Which makes Kenneth's thought so scary. No bounderies, no rules, no compunction aboout going after what they want, since they believe that there is no God to answer to. Maybe that is part of how God planned the end times to come about.

I'm glad He is soverign and wise and powerful God. We are all going to need His help, I am truly convinced.

-- Leann Banta (thelionandlamb@hotmail.com), December 30, 2000.

Hey Ken, those gang kids don't spend very much time actually practising hitting their marks, so the one best thing to do to be prepared for the shoot 'em up crowd is to be well versed in your own weaponry and NEVER give up your guns. I am afraid you are right about the harsh cold realities. There is something about things being so raw and vulnerable that makes you more appreciative of what you are blessed with in the friends and family area. I think that is really part of the reality bypass we have in the current society as it stands. If someone dies, we sue. As if money can make the loss better....

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 31, 2000.

Sorry this seems to be mostly focusing on the down fall. I must say that I agree with LeeAnn about the pre-trib, mid trib, post trib, stuff. I mostly know Christians who believe in pre trib rapture, but I don't have a "knowing" about it. Either way, we will need to be able to stand strong until God puts a hold on our destrction...which brings me to the longer side of the futurist aspect of the question.

After all of the chaos and wanton violence settles out, there will be a period of "a golden age" if you will. This can be called the Millenial Kingdom, or the nice and bucolic full awareness of actions that many writers have described for the post apocalypso era. Either way, it means a re birthing after the travails. Something that is really worth getting through because the outcome is going to be better in direct proportion to the traumas.

It is really difficult to be a Christian and not to speak of it all in terms of scripture. I am unsure if people who aren't saved can understand how next to impossible that is...

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 31, 2000.

I agree with Ken and his neighbor who went through the depression. Another couple of things that are different this time are that during the depression of the '20's and '30's, people who were head over heels in debt could either go move in with relatives who owned their own homes or go get some form of help from country relatives, such as homegrown food or wood to heat and cook with. Now almost every house you pass on the road has a note against it, and there may not be anyone for the homeless to land with. Also, as I go down the highway here and look, you don't see any gardens. Oh, you see flower gardens and shrubs, but no vegetable gardens and few fruit trees. And what is worse, most of the people here don't know how to grow their own food. And this is a rural area. This doesn't sound very promising to me. I think Ken is right about the theft and violence. Those who don't have will take from those who do.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), December 31, 2000.

Well, how about if we take a much broader view and consider the Y2k Phenomenon to be a reaction to CHANGE. I think there is a collective fear about change, which has served us bio-types well over the millennia. If we all embraced change quickly, we would have died out as a species a long time ago...way too risky. I think there is a profound fear of change embedded in our very DNA.

Okay, so here comes the late 20th century....change becomes epidemic. Science seems to have run amok, and technology, well! Technology has us by the you-know-whats it seems. We can't even get used to our computers and then there's palm pilots, and cell phones everywhere, and animals being cloned, and God knows what impacting us seemingly non-stop. It's changing our economy and our world. We can't seem to catch our breath.

I think we, as a sociological group, particularly in the United States, just freaked out with the prospect of all this technology, which we don't even understand yet, much less control, taking over our lives (read:survival.) This is the crux of the social aspect of Y2k, I think. I believe that's why so many of us reacted the way that we did. And for those for whom change is less impactful, the issue was less profound... Maybe that's the techies who bounce around to change all the time.

Not since the Industrial Revolution has so much change impacted a population so much. (Then you had folks leaving their homes to go to work; children working away from their families; migration of people from the country to cities, etc...it's well documented.) If you consider that the changes we have been experiencing have been exacerbated by the instant communication of information (true, false or otherwise) via the 'net, it increases the impact a bazillion times. We feel that things are changing completely out of our control, and then we get to read about it over and over again. How powerless.

I think historians will look back upon this period as a time frought with anxiety. Even those who seem to benefit the most from embracing this technology seem also to be those who are leading the most frenetic lives....and even accelerating the change.

I think I personally looked forward to SLOWING DOWN! Even if it meant some hardship, at least we could understand its ramifications. I think Y2k was that window for us as a group to say "Enough! We have to slow down and think about all of this!"

Okay...just my $.02 for today. Looking forward to 2001. ("Open the pod doors, Hal....")Happy New Year!!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), December 31, 2000.

To sheepish.......I am floored by your post.......

You are a remarkably talented writer......a deep and inspiring thinker...and I just want to thank you for your insights and for expressing YOUR feelings without feeling the need to instruct others on how THEY should feel........

I too, am looking forward to 2001, whatever it brings!

Blessings,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), December 31, 2000.

Sheepish, I have spent alot of time this past year, wondering why I really believed Y2k was going to be bad, and also wondering how it could not have happened. I don't think I was hoping for a complete meltdown, so I've often wondered how I could feel so strongly that Y2K was going to be real. I watched the 60 minutes show, all the c-span programs on it, researched and researched articles on the web. I was obsessed with trying to find all the facts I could. And I honestly believed Y2K was definately possible. How could it have not been, I wondered? Still gets me. Maybe you hit the nail on the head. I don't much like technology. Not that type of person, I guess. Have always liked doing manual labor as opposed to having a machine doing it for me. I guess I don't trust technology and think it's much to impersonal. So impersonal I thought, that it wouldn't care if people lost electricity or went without food. But sometimes I think way deeper about all of this. We put in a hand pump for our well, put in a wood stove, built a shed with a light weight cook stove in it, expanded my garden, got oil lamps etc... We have used all of these just this past year, due to the weather and the wood stove for our heat this winter. Now we are all set. Maybe God gave us a head start for something to come, on His timeline.

-- Annie (mistletoe@earthlink.net), December 31, 2000.

I am thankful for the conversation about Y.2.K. . I'm one of those who were disapointed when it didnt happen.

-- Trendle Ellwood (trendlespin@msn.com), December 31, 2000.

I can remember when I was searching countryside and the librairy for clues into the issue, I was looking around and wondering if anyone else was reading this and getting prepared. Sometimes I think that one of the reasons that I fell for it was because the majority of people around me expected it to be a non event. I thought, what if it does happen and I am not prepared to take care of my family? So I had to get ready for the maybe storm.

-- Trendle Ellwood (trendlespin@msn.com), December 31, 2000.

I guess that it is just engraved into my brain that the end times are a comen. Many religions predict this , from the Native Americans, the Hopi ,and Christians. And I guess that if the Y.2.K. predictions came true then it would mean that THE END was going to be the end of technology. And that once again life would be greeting the sun in the morning, kissing the earth in the day. A life centered on the natural world. After all the bible says that the meek shall inherit the earth and who is more humble then a homesteader. So, maybe I had hopes of being a chosen one and living life in the dawn of the new age. But, alas!! It didnt happen Thats why I was so sad on the morning of the new millenium . When the planes still flew in the sky above me , the T.v. still blared the news, the water still flowed from the faucets. It didnt happen, I wasnt chosen to survive a complete change in my world,but instead I must struggle on in the same old world. But something has changed. Somehow during the last two years I started to realize that I have got to live like I wish the whole world would. These visions I have of how I wish the world would be, well I have to live these visions. During this time I came across a quote from Ghandi that truly touched my heart. ( We must be the change that we wish to see in the world.) I really have thought about my ideas of a better world and see that it's not going to happen magicly overnight. but it will only happen if I help make it happen. It remains to be seen what all this has prepared us for . There sure is alot of talk about recession, the stock market is going haywire. My brother is allready laid off and there are rumers of lay offs at my husbands plant. Maybe our y.2.k. will come to us in a different way then we expected. The mental and physical ways that we prepared may come in handy yet.

-- Trendle Ellwood (trendlespin@msn.com), January 01, 2001.

Wow, I guess you all have such nobler reasons then mine. I was just selfish. The reason I would have liked to see some impact from Y2K is simply because it would leave me without any more excuses. Yes, we homestead, but not as much as we would like to, because there is never enough money,time, or other resources.Deep in my heart I know we could face a disaster of some such sort, even so we are not as fully prepared as many of you. If it all falls to shambles, then I don't have a job, or taxes to pay, or whatever the reason is for not totally homesteading.It makes it so I don't have to have the guts to do it, because it will be done for me.I guess that makes me a wuss, but I feel, that that was why I wanted Y2K.

-- karin morey (www.wind_crest@hotmail.com), January 02, 2001.

Some of us ( not me!!!) are interested in embracing the concept of hard times to come because "Misery loves company". Think about it, people have forgotten how to be happy! That is why so many have "returned " to the Church and Christianity, they have forgotten how to live in a manner that allows happiness to exist! And now they need someone to direct their lives for them. It is sad, and entirely unnecessary, but people equate money and "things" with happiness and fullfillment.

Happiness comes about when you can accept what is, and not blame everyone else for what isn't.

Happiness comes when you can be comfortable in your own skin, and not keep wanting to look like someone else.

Happiness comes about when people stop "fearing" everyone else, more guns and higher caliber ammunition won't solve the fear that exists in the "gun mongers" among us, violence only begats more violence. It is time to put down your weapons, and face your biggest "fear", which is you.

Happiness only comes when you have achieved "harmony", there is no God that will do this for you, no Church that will lead the way, it comes from within yourself, when you understand your place in this universe. It is not anyones "fault" that you cannot achieve this "harmony", it is learned and practised for.

There are no "hard times to come", only enlightenment yet to be achieved. Everything you do is either part of the problem, or part of your steps to enlightenment, you alone decide which.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), January 03, 2001.

Whoa Anne!

-- Trendle Ellwood (trendlespin@msn.com), January 03, 2001.

Annie, Annie, Annie. A right relationship with God is the only thing that will bring about happiness in eternity. No philosophy of man in denial of ourselves as a creation will hold up under the rigors of true "hard times". Guns aren't the problem, just like rocks aren't the problem. People being violent is part of the problem. People trying to extract happiness from stuff is part of the problem. People trying to be happy with their "flesh" is part of the problem....gravity always wins.

Attacking the best and only working model for a society made up of people with true liberty in favor of a group mindset where the individual is considered subversive only can lead to dissatisfaction and all of the ill feelings you mentioned above.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), January 03, 2001.

Thanks, Annie.

-- Sam in W.Va. (turnip55a@yahoo.com), January 03, 2001.

I hear ya, Annie! And have missed your posts!

There seems to be a theme amongst certain peoples' contributions here that sound somethin like this: I hope the world goes to hell in a handbasket cuz then I can say "I told you so!"

I think we walk a dangerous line when we start feeling like homesteading makes us somehow more intelligent, or savvy, or righteous, or enlightened, or any other number of ways to subconsciously elevate, and consequently separate ourselves from "others".

The city is riddled with people who understand the values we hold about conservation, environment, community, homeschooling, growing our own food, frugality, government intervention, etc, etc. The countryside is also filled with people who dont have a clue! I don't believe any of these people are 'wrong', they are just on a different journey than we are, or at a different point in a similar one.

Whatever we all learned from the Y2K thing is a good thing; to wish that disaster had happened ,with all its potential hardship and possible tragedy to our human family just to justify one's own lifestyle choices seems to me a cynical and compassionless response.

May we all support each other through life's difficult lessons, and, like I think Annie inferred, always choose to see the joy those lessons were meant to deliver.

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 03, 2001.

Please allow me to clarify a few things. I didn't turn to Christianity because I was unhappy. I accepted Jesus, because I felt the strong pull of the Holy Spirit. Being a Chrisitan doesn't mean I am incapable of running my life. It means that as an imperfect person I don't know everything. I choose to listen to the Holy Spirit, in His perfection I place my trust.

I'll be happy as long as I am free to worship the Lord without persecution, although the way things are looking, it won't be much longer. If you love the Lord, stand up, be counted. Don't let anyone shame you into feeling ignorant, because the Lord is leading you in His perfection.

As to the guns, my biggest fear is not myself. It was the huge man who jumped on the back of an old boyfriends car, years ago. He was with several other men. I knew what he wanted, he was yelling it through the back glass. Old boyfriend didn't carry a gun. We got away before he could do the things to me he was wanting to do. I wonder if he found another woman that night who wasn't as fortunate. You see, I'm not afraid of myself, it's the people that want to rape, pilage, and murder. If anyone wants to be defenceless in this society, it is their right. My husband and I choose to keep our weapons, because God gave us the responsibility to protect our families. We will never give up this right.

-- Lena(NC) (breezex4@go.com), January 03, 2001.

You said,[Some of us ( not me!!!) are interested in embracing the concept of hard times to come because "Misery loves company". Think about it, people have forgotten how to be happy! That is why so many have "returned " to the Church and Christianity, they have forgotten how to live in a manner that allows happiness to exist! And now they need someone to direct their lives for them. It is sad, and entirely unnecessary, but people equate money and "things" with happiness and fullfillment.]

Perhaps the reason people have returned is because they lost their happiness when they left in the first place. It's interesting to me that this nationwide unhappiness only happened after more and more left God behind.

You said,[Happiness comes about when people stop "fearing" everyone else, more guns and higher caliber ammunition won't solve the fear that exists in the "gun mongers" among us, violence only begats more violence. It is time to put down your weapons, and face your biggest "fear", which is you. ]

Owning and carrying a weapon isn't about fear. It is about preparation. A weapon is a tool. Weapons have been used since the beginning of time to protect man. If anything the current gun hating craze is about fear. Unfortunately giving up guns will never end violence. Violence starts in man's heart. in fact there is a city in Georgia where every man is required to carry a gun, and the result is almost no crime. Kinda puts to rest the idea that guns cause violence. Guns are used as tools to prevent violence, and feed people. Tools can be used for good or for evil. The only people in this country who don't understand that are the ones that have been brainwashed. Fear makes people behave irrationally, and giving others the ability to make you a victim is irrational. Thousands and Thousands of live are saved every year by guns, far more than those lives lost by them. It seems to me that when you choose to reject using a hammer, because someone might choose to hit you in the head, then you are the one reacting out of irrational fear. Ask a carpenter.

You said, [Happiness only comes when you have achieved "harmony", there is no God that will do this for you, no Church that will lead the way, it comes from within yourself, when you understand your place in this universe. It is not anyones "fault" that you cannot achieve this "harmony", it is learned and practised for.]

Actually, you are right. Knowing Christ, doesn't make you merely happy. Happiness is a temporary insipid emotion. Happiness is something you feel at any small little moment. Joy however is given by God, and is abiding. Joy differs from happiness in that it is not affected by emotional ups and downs. Joy is a wellspring of peace in your heart, given by God that goes on and on. No mattwer how harmonized you are, you cannot have Joy unless you have Him. So in a since you are right, because even though bad times may come, even though death may touch you, even though depression may fill your mind, happiness will come and go, but Joy lingers and utterly lights your soul with the Love of God.

You said,[There are no "hard times to come", only enlightenment yet to be achieved. Everything you do is either part of the problem, or part of your steps to enlightenment, you alone decide which.]

And you can only be enlightened when you recognize that you are nothing before your Creator, He is everything, and you are a sinner that needs forgiving. Until you do that and accept his gift of forgiveness you are the blind leading the blind. Alone in your sin, while your Savior waits for you to see that He is there patiently waiting to enter your heart and change your life.

The night I asked Christ into my life when I was seven years old the choir sang this song.

The Savior is waiting to enter you heart, why won't you let him come in? There's nothing in this world to keep you apart, what is your answer to him? Time after time he has waited before and now He is waiting again. To see if your willing to open the door. Oh how he wants to come in.

If you'll take one step toward the Savior my friend, you'll find his arms open wide. Receive him and all of your darkness will end. Within your heart he'll abide. Time after time he has waited before and now he is waiting again to see if your willing to open the door. Oh how he wants to come in.

Praise God I finally opened the door.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), January 03, 2001.

Little Bit, you got the joy, joy, joy down in your heart to stay. It's so sad that those who don't, can't truly understand until the trust in faith--believing without seeing. Once that step of faith is taken, then they DO KNOW without a doubt that Jesus is God's Son and they can know that JOY!

-- Eve (owenall@lwol.com), January 03, 2001.

"Owning and carrying a weapon isn't about fear. "

Surely you jest!!

Of course there is always the distinct possibility that I'm crazy, but it seems pretty clear to me that the people who are terrified around here, are usually the ones who shout the loudest about their love affairs with their weapons. AT least terrified in the immediate sense. I've personally never owned a gun in my life; have nothing against those who do, just never ever found a need for one. Never be able to pull the trigger anywho; too squeamish. Spose if someone were about to seriously harm one of my kids I would reflexively take whatever measures I had available at the moment, but I still wouldnt feel it was a righteous thing to take someones life. My life is no more more worthy than the next persons; but thats just my own values. I guess I dont believe in becoming the thing I would despise.

The idea that having guns for "protection" isnt about fear is kinda funny to me. Course its about fear. Big time.....

I dont worry much....oh you can call me naiive, or unamerican,or whatever.......I'm used to it.....doesnt bother me a bit.......I trust that the Universe will take care of me and mine.....has for 52 years and I expect it will until my time is up....and whatever happens is always a great lesson.....and I accept it all with joy, even when it hurts for awhile.......and know it was all meant to be, just the way it happens.....

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 04, 2001.

Annie It sounds like you are putting yourself up on a throne to me, do you really think that you did any good with your better then thou ,because I have no fears sermon?

-- Trendle Ellwood (trendlespin@msn.com), January 04, 2001.

Annie, I like you, but I think you're way off and Trendle and LilBit have answered very well.

Earth To Mamma....(sorry, I thought it was funny!) are you actually trying to say that the decisions a person makes have no bearing upon how long they are on this planet? Are you saying that when a pwerson has descended into absolute violence that you should just stand there and let them carry on because "The Universe" will take care of you? Now, that sounds very much like fear of responsibility to me. How can you set yourself up as being superior to someone who will defend their family, property and neighbor. Whether you realize it or not, you are being what one would call exceedingly pompous.

Glad you think I'm afraid. Fear is a survival mechanism. Also, one time a GUN that didn't work most likely saved my life. There were a series of rapes and murders going in a two block radius of the house I lived in....the Milwaukee slasher was the perp's name.He liked to attack blond haired white girls, which I am. One night I woke up with someoone trying to come in my window. My roommmate had told me to keep his brother's rusted up shot gun with me when I slept because he and my other roommate worked third shift. We didn't have a phone. I pulled the non working gun and told the guy in the windo that "if he liked his *** he'd better move it" and he backed right up and ran down the alley FAST. You might not think that my life has any value, or that your little Universe would have been better off without me, but I disagree.

Also, it is just amazing to me that the people who are always saying they don't want to be proselytyzed are the ones who are constantly attacking Christ and His followers....but they say they love everything....EXCEPT Christians, especially those who follow the instructions to "defend the faith".

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), January 04, 2001.

I have no wish to engage in a name-calling exercise with you, Doreen, even though you have chosen to refer to me as "pompous", tell me I don't value your life (?), that I am avoiding responsibility and infer that I am attacking Christ! HUH? Seems you and some others have set up a set of rules, which you proclaim is "ordained by God", based on YOUR interpretation of the Bible, and anyone who disagrees with your set of standards (even down to the subject of guns!) is an enemy of Christians and Christianity. This sounds like absolutely fear- based behavior to lil ol me, and your seeming extreme anger at me verifies it in my peabrain anywho.

To be accurate, I had no intention of 'setting myself up to be superior' to ANYONE; interesting you should take it that way. I was merely stating my beliefs, my feelings, and my perspective.

I don't really know if I can make you understand this,and I suspect you don't really have any interest anyway, but I look at your scenario like this: My heart goes out to anyone who has experienced violence; I abhor it in all its forms. We watch virtually no violence in our home, and I have experienced none in my life. I believe we invite all our circumstances to visit us (subconsciously) to teach us something about ourselves. That doesnt mean those experiences are not sometimes terribly painful, confusing or frightening. It just means, (to ME,remember) they were meant to be; they are all good. I also believe that what we focus on is what grows. If we are focused on fears of violence, or agitation in our personal life, or starvation, or poverty, or sickness, then those are probably the experiences we will have. I know most people cant go there, cuz its much easier to blame someone else, or something else for our misfortunes. But I'm speaking from the experience of a life-changing perspective; merely taking responsibility for everything that 'happens' to me,and focusing only on the positives in all people and experiences, has taken away all my need to be angry at anyone, and most of the anxiety from my day to day life. And, it didnt take long to see the difference. I prefer peace of mind, and what I call faith in the Great Spirit, and yes, I do believe I am well cared for. One CAN be responsible AND proactive in ones's life, without expecting an enemy of some type around every corner.

By the way, "earth to mama" was cute!!! :)

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), January 04, 2001.

I do believe a "mountain was made out of the molehill" here, I was simply answering Sheepish's question at the end of her paragraph, please re-read her question and perhaps it will be made more clear.

This was not an "attack" on anyones personal beliefs, but something called philosophizing about life and human nature, you know, philosophy? There is no one right answer to a philosophy question, it is asked mearly to make you think!

I practice no one type of religion, but embrace all of them, for to label yourself as a practioner of just one, eliminates and shuts out the best points and benefits of all the others. Such is the basic problem that exists today in the Middle East, folks there simply can't bear that their religion is not the "chosen" one to the practitioners of the others also residing there. Am I a horrible person because I am not of one faith, why must I chose just one, isn't it the same Creator for all of them? I consider myself to be a very religious person, more so than most realize.

Trendle, I am no better than anyone, that is not what this question and answer was about, Sheepish asked if there where any armchair sociologists out there, and I answered philosophically.

Earthmamma and Sam, I think you were the only ones that understood what I was saying, if I have unintentionally offended anyone, I apologize.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), January 04, 2001.

What is the definition of name calling? Is any nonflattering observation automatically name calling? I did not call you a name. I said that "whether you realized it or not, you were being exceedingly pompous." Calling you a pompous so and so would be name calling. Saying that you are a moron would be name calling. Saying that you were a foolish, ignorant idiot would be name calling. I didn't do any of that. I have slung some barbs on this forum, but I have never called anyone a "name". If someone tells me to settle, I don't take that as a personal attack. Sometimes it's a helpful hint. I was not and am not extremely angry with you.....ya'll can't take any kind of passionate responses.

If you would read what I said as opposed to what you think I said, it would be helpful....I said you MIGHT not value my life, and I am more than certain that you value my life less than I do. I mean be real, you have never met me and you don't like my religion or politics. Also that were it not for what is in your opinion a tool used by "fearful" people, I most likely would be dead....or just horribly mutilated. I will make a deal with any anti gun person, if they can guarantee that all weapons and all knowledge of how to make them were taken away from the minds of men, THEN you can take my guns from me.

As for avoiding responsibility, I BELIEVE it is our responsibility to protect what God has entrusted to us. And to protect those who cannot protect themselves. If you choose to not do so, that's fine, but I see that as being irresponsible. That's my opinion, based on what I have learned. I also believe that God is in charge, but we are RESPONSIBLE for our actions and our inactions. Bad things will happen whether we prepare for them or not.

We are in agreement on one thing at least. That you grow from your experiences.

How those experiences come to pass is a whole nother story. I believe that God allows things to happen, not that WE choose them to. Would you say that the Jews in the Holocaust invited that into their lives? I beg to differ. Regarding the man coming in my window...I find it purely silly to say that I invited that experience into my life. What, by being born female with blond hair and living in a city where a sexual psycopath decided to have his party? Oh yeah, I chose that.

And as for attacking Christ, you did, and did it again. "Some of us" actually read the Bible and study it and strive to grow in it and don't give over to just what our limited minds can comprehend, and don't try to say..."well, the Bible says this, but since I don't agree, I think I will give it a different meaning". It's not "YOUR" interpretation as you said, but actually what the Bible says, proving scripture against scripture and reading it in a contextual manner as opposed to pulling one verse out to justify whatever you want. I believe it is the infallible word of God,and I won't pretend that I have it all figured out nor that I comprehend all of it. I wish I had accepted Christ as early on as LilBit, because I sure could have saved myself a lot of heartache along the way if I had. But I was slow on the uptake and had to blunder through a bunch of "new age" religions to get to the point where I said, "God, I quit...." and soon after I accepted Christ as my Lord and Saviour. I guess I just want to let you know that I know the philosophies of which you speak fairly well, and they come up empty after awhile.

If you were inferring that a Christian sees enemies around every corner, or if you were just suggesting that I do, that isn't true. Denying that there are enemies is just as foolish as thinking everyone is your enemy. I believe in a realistic approach, some are friends and some are enemies and they prove themselves with their actions. Innocent until proven guilty, is my approach. Not exactly a novel concept, to be sure!

So what was the point of all of that in relation to y2k?

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), January 04, 2001.

Well, I still maintain that we all have more in common with each other than we have differences between us. Regarding Y2k, I would much rather live next door to all/any of you if the **** had hit the fan! Of course, we would never have time to talk about any of this b/c we would be too busy trying to make food happen, etc. SO....good thing we can hash it all out on here!

I guess I also wonder about the futuristic part of my questioning...what do you think the world would have looked like if we had had major problems...and I guess ultimately, my mind keeps going to the question as to whether humans are essentially bad or essentially good...Would we have banded together or would we have become devisive, etc. I tend to lean toward the positive, myself...

-- sheepish (WA) (rborgo@gte.net), January 04, 2001.

Sheepish, do you remember the book "Lord of the Flies" from school? My teacher told us that when they took a bunch of boys to an island to make the film version, the producers didn't believe that real boys would be as bad as the ones in the book. They very quickly learned that they were worse. All human beings require some restraint to make them act acceptably. Some have internalized those restraints through having accepted Jesus Christ as savior, and allowing the Holy Spirit to indwell them and guide them, but without that, we all need external restraints of one kind or another to keep us in line. If those restraints are removed, you end up with a horrible mess. The Dark Ages, outside the civilizing influence of a few monastaries, were such a mess. I don't think any of us really want to go back there.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), January 04, 2001.

I believe Little Bit Farm and Doreen wrote some harsh words. I stand by Annie and Earthmama. I stand loud and tall and proud. And without any deity as my guide.

Honestly, I think I wanted something to 'go wrong' re: Y2K because then I'd be right! Maybe it was that selfish a motivation. I have worked hard to own what I have, which is of considerable value, and at some personal risk. I wanted a chance to 'prove' to others, who appear mindless in their use of their/our resources (financial and otherwise), that planning and conserving, etc. pays off.

-- Anne (HT@HM.com), January 04, 2001.

Ahh, the future as if y2k happened? It think it would depend on where you were at the time. If you were in a small town, rural kind of area the people would be more likely to form community self help groups with more of a sharing of resources, skills, mutual protection pacts etc.

On the other hand if you were in a big city I think you'd really be wishing you weren't. Almost certainly, if the problem was widespread within a city or in densely populated areas martial law would be very likely.

It makes me wonder if they'd call a moratorium on the banks and lending agencies to prevent them from acruing interest and foreclosing on peoples homes etc.

Most of you who've been on this board for a while are quite familiar with my views on the religious issues so there's no need to repeat them. However it seems there's a double standard at play here. The fundamentalist christians seem to think its perfectly fine for them to "wittness" to their beliefs at every opportunity yet when Annie, Earthmamma or someone else who's not in lockstep with the fundy world view expresses something different from the party line you jump down their throat.

It should be obvious to any discerning person there's a pretty broad cross section of intelligent, thoughtful people here and its absurd to me that the fundies should think that all of us who are not of that persuasion haven't heard it all before, countless times, and have made an informed, conscious decision not to take that path. We're willing to accept Gods judgement so why don't you people just back off and leave it be. God gave us free will and he respects it as evidenced in the Garden. It seems to me the fundies would be wise to do the same.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 04, 2001.

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, CAN'T YOU KIDS PLAY NICE??? GIVE IT A REST WILL YA??? john

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), January 05, 2001.

To John and john Amen amen

-- (trendlespin@msn.com), January 05, 2001.

Annie, Anne, and Earth mama certainly have a healthier attitude than the knee jerk fundies. Y2K was not anything but boring hype to me as I work daily in an intensely technological word that is moderated by being library in orientation. I never thought it would amount to anything but hoped that the hype might make some stop and consider whether they had ANY control over their lives. Given that "The Dark Ages" were caused directly and intentionally by the Roman church, everyone should be very cautious in believing anything mainstream religion says that isn't verifiable through independant sources and the bible is not only not independant but contradicts itself, something a perfect source can not do.

-- kirby johnson (kirbyj@deskmedia.com), January 05, 2001.

Kirby, your comments are valued. Unfortunately, rational thought has little effect on faith beliefs. Thank you for your support.

Long Live Science.

-- Anne (HT@HM.com), January 05, 2001.

Hey, what ever happened to "Love thy enemy" Trendle and Doreen, shame on you. I seen no constuctive input on your part, at least according to scripture. Ya, should have been praying for these lost souls, so it says.

Seams to me alot of people were born again, just so they could face Y2K. These people seam to be hurt most (Doomers). I mean they were prepared, all kinds of goodies stored, water, generators,etc.etc., and just in case, born again. I think they were hurt, because, nothing happened, and they wanted something to happen so they could justify they're actions. They could smear it in your face.

"Like a thief in the night" If you believe in scripture this is what it says, you'll have no warning!

Me, I had extra food,etc.etc. The most I worried about however was the power going out. Mostly because of lack of education in the field of computers. Never, did I want anything to happen, and was relieved when nothing did.

Your greatest enemy lies within.

John, good post!

-- hillbilly (internethillbilly@hotmail.com), January 05, 2001.

Hillybilly: AMEN to your "Your greatest enemy lies within."

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 06, 2001.

I just read this entire thread again. I don't see anything that Doreen or I said that was harsh. I personally didn't call a name, or make a derogatory remark. I responded to a post. You may not like what I believe, but that's ok. I don't like what you believe either. If anyone has taken it on the chin in this thread it has been Christians. Me thinks thou dost protest too much.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), January 06, 2001.

Little bit, my impression from this and other posts of late is that it's not just this thread, but many threads on this Forum over time. I guess folks feel that so many threads are filled with Christian references/prosyletizing that it is getting annoying, if not just downright preachy.

I understand that for numerous Christians, the point is to make sure everyone that they know goes to Heaven. It's the mission thing. I understand that.

For numerous non-Christians, the point I think they want to make is that they are free to decide to go to Hell or not. (For those that see Hell as the issue.) While that makes some Christians sorry/anxious/frustrated that they cannot save those that they genuinely wnat to, those same Christians need to understand that it's those non-Christian's choice. You just cannot control people's choices. They make their own. God is there for them and if he wants them to "get it" He'll make SURE they get the point!

Sometimes, "less is more," both in theology and architecture.

-- sheepish (WA) (rborgo@gte.net), January 06, 2001.