What will you do without your Freedom/Forum ?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Countryside : One Thread

First let me say that I fully expect to get tossed out of this forum for this post. At the Alamo, Santa Anna's demands said "Surrender without discretion" or the entire fort will be put to the sword and Travis answered his demands with a cannon shot. Would someone please hold these matches for me ?

I have been advised that this forum is not governed under the laws of free speech. You see, we are not intelligent enough to actually say what we want to say. This does not surprise me, I'm sure some of us are even smart but we are unable to express that because somone else might find it offensive. In fact, just post it under the "smart people only" thread so no dumb people will open it than Ken can put it in the "blissful thinking" catergory. ( And please put Holier than Thou as the Topic) !

I'm Here To Tell You-- and I don't care what tree they hang me from--Free Speech is a God Given Right and it does not matter who agrees or disagrees or finds it offensive. Niether Greenspun or Countryside itself has the right to control free speech ! Some will say there was a curse word that got thru--so ban free speech. Others would blame a religious difference of opinion, so ban free speech. I don't know Dave or Ken personally but I'm here to say that you may as well ask the rivers to run backwards as to expect us to change what has worked and worked well for a year and a half.

I call this --"new directer syndrome" ! Everything is working but since I'm new ---I'll just walk in and change everything just to watch the peons rattle their brains. J.D. once said " Come to think of it, it ain't funny. It isn't funny at all" !

So what will you do now that you just lost your most basic of freedoms ? Are you ready to fight yet ? No, probably not. I guess you'll wait till they shoot your son or burn your farm, huh ? Than you'll come charging out waving that flag like good ole Mel Gibson and kill all the British and we will all live happily ever after ! Right ? Hand me that Match, please !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), December 21, 2000


I think you are taking this to the extreme a bit. As I understand it this is not censorship...just a bit of regulation. This is to keep anything grossly inappropriate off of what is basically a family forum. As the forum is set up at the moment anyone can come on and post anything they please...which is ok as long as it is not abused. I believe the purpose in Ken being a watchdog is to let the folks that would post inappropriate stuff know there is someone paying attention.

-- Amanda in Mo (aseley@townsqr.com), December 21, 2000.

alright Joel calm down, put the box away and sit down and have a cup of tea.You dont know what will happen yet so dont hang any one yet.every one does things different dosnt make it wrong just different.Of course I just got mad because they were slaming californians again so maybe I will have a cup of tea to.

-- kathy h (ckhart55@earthlink.net), December 21, 2000.

Go to bed.get a good night's sleep. G' night.

-- sharon wt (wildflower@ekyol.com), December 21, 2000.

Joel: I understand your concern but methinks you're overeacting a bit. Theres ALOT of new people coming to this board of late and a few haven't picked up on the concept of civil discourse. In the past we've been in some pretty heated discussions but we've always remained at least civil on the forum with very little name calling and excessive profanity. Thats one of the reasons I've stuck around and one of the reasons I left BWH forum.

I'm all for free speech and exercise it regularly here, even when my pinko, commie, heretical,liberal minded meanderings are not popular. But its one of those deals---freedom with responsibility. When in Rome do as the Romans and here we respectfully respect the right to differ, even when the other is dead wrong(chuckle!) The key word there is respectfully. Gratuitous profanity and namecalling without grounds lacks class.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), December 21, 2000.

Wait a minute...there have been one or two times in the past when a thread was pulled and if I am correct it's because they were sexual in nature and there are more than enough places on the internet to go and get your sex fix, also they were not from people who had previously posted, or if they were it wasn't shown in their email address. I think the moderator has the right to pull something that is grossly offensive. If we came on here and someone had posted literal pornography with a knitting question as the subject line, it would be completely improper and should be pulled.

I have not seen where it was indicated that anyone was actually going to censor or to edit posts unless they are grossly inapplicable. If the people who host this forum decide to begin to run a dictatorship and we digress into crafts, goats and flea beetles and nothing with any intellectual stimulus the forum will die. If they want to do that they can. We can just start another one ourselves.

As a carryover from the "edits" thread, who is this "Fish Fella" and why does he think we have the possibility to foment any kind of activity here that would lead to litigious behaviour? It sounds to me like the talk of a person who wants to see thoughts and expressions controlled....Since when has discussing things been criminal?

It seems this is getting blown out of proportion. If they feel the need for more topic headings or tagging threads to fit into topical categories, I am fine with that. If the folks who "run" this forum decide to monitor it with censorship and clampdown on the right to free speech, then I have a problem with it. And to answer your question Joel, of course I am ready to fight. But with what weapons? I say use words as long as words are allowed, then when they are rendered useless, use whatever you've got.

I have to stress that I have seen some clamoring for censorship, but I haven't seen anyone say they were going to do that....yet.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 21, 2000.

Money, Doreen--the almighty dollar is our W.O.C (weapon of choice). I can stop buying and quit using my talents to advertise it ! While complaining about the many problems of this forum they have ever so carefully neglected to mention what a bountiful source of FREE advertising we are.(FreeLoaders included) To Quote Billy Joel " cause you know it's me they've been coming to see, to forget about life for awhile"(substitute we for me). Face the facts--the webpage would get 10 vsitors per year (maybe) without the forum, and those people would glance at it an move on.

I can only speculate that if you edit and delete what is read here, than how much more so is it done in what I'm buyng to read ?

I'm all for bleeping profanity and deleting pornography. You all know that ! This is more than a reader read magazine it is a reader advertised magazine and we are it's prime source of it !

I'll compromise though--the fact is--I'm very unhappy with the person selected. I have nothing against Ken. I just think he is an extremely bad choice of moderator since his basic loyalities lay in the magazine itself ! I open the floor for nominations

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), December 21, 2000.

O.k. - I am new, I am old, I am confused!!! I have read and re-read everything that has been posted about this topic and I fail to see where censorship was mentioned by anyone in a position of power. Even a few of us "whinners" about the obscene language did not advocate censorship. Ken never said he would do anything but sort topics anywhere or any time. He threw out a question about the need for a moderator and a big bunch of us responded. Dave, who sounded to me pretty annoyed at a bunch of the insinuations about infringment of free speech, said something about if it really got to the point that it disintegrated into "animal farm" type behavior he could always pull the plug, and as a publisher he certainly has that right. Joel, I don't know you, I don't even know if you are a real person. This is my real name and my real address and I suggest that you are trying to very much do what Dave was suggesting could be done. This is really a rediculous post. Freedom of speech is not an issue here. Freedom of speech is what you do in your own space and on your own time. You have the right to say what you want for the most part, but this sounds like yelling fire in a crowded theater to me and totally out of place. MOST OF US are just looking for what we have here. A nice place to visit with like minded people (homesteading is what I am talking about, not politics and religion) who also share their personal beliefs both spiritual and religious at times. My hope is that that is what you are after also, you just maybe lost track of that in some passionate moment. Sincerely - diane

-- Diane Green (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), December 21, 2000.

Oops - I ment to say spiritual and POLITICAL beliefs that we share at times. We really are all inseparable from those beliefs, they are a part of who we are. I will probably catch it for my lousy spelling. Is there any spell checker you can use here? Like on our e-mail?

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), December 21, 2000.

No spell checker, Diane. Sorry. I suffer from bad spelling myself. I'm a wiz at math and statistics though. Although I try to read most posts --I must admit I missed the proverbial pig post. Whenever I even think of posting a curse word it is viewed like this : @##$$%##@ Just to let everyone know I'm a sinner also ! I really have no problem with profanity or pornography or improper advances or suggestions being removed. Steve did a wonderful job of maintaining this forum--just excellent !

It is not passion thats driving me, it's fear. This was a wonderful place and lately whenever on or two complain than they screw t up a little more each day. Topics was the first complaint--I need a topic so I see if I want to read it because I don't have time---well, if you don't have time than shut your computer off--simple ! Than it was all political posts to the back of the bus and in peaceful protest I refused to go there. Well, thats how it starts--just one rule than two than so many you can't remember why you had the first one and who was the ringleader of this move to tyranny ? Hint--No longer content to reign only in soy ink and text, he found the forum too.

However, I'm willing to risk everything I got invested in this forum which is over a thousand hours easy to move it back to were it started. Being a homesteader is much more than you suggested and I'll either achieve my goal or get thrown out trying !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), December 21, 2000.

I'm glad to see you still here with us, Diane. Sorry, no spell checker here that I know of.

I am betting that this thread will not be deleted, nor will Joel get booted from the forum. Just my opinion, of course, but I think Joel's "take" on the situation has no basis in reality. Could be I'll be proven wrong, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

-- Joy Froelich (dragnfly@chorus.net), December 21, 2000.

Will someone help me sort this out? What's happening here? Is at least part of this problem because we look/feel that the forum is like family?(something I know very little about) Is it all going away? Can't we keep what we have and just be a little more rescpectful of others-no vulgar language-and not go beyond what boundaries we've had this whole time. This has been a safe place(I know tht sounds corny but I haven't had a whole lot of safe places). From what I have seen from my in-laws, people can have disagrements and still stay family, I've seen that here too. We'll be in total disagreement on one thread, and on the next we'll answer that person's questions. So while we're having growing pains, let's not take too strong of an aspirin. Merry Christmas and Blessing to you all.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), December 21, 2000.

"Do what I say or I'll pull the plug on this forum" from a man that I didn't know existed until a week ago is not family. That is unless you call an abusive parent---- "family !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), December 21, 2000.


Again, for the record, I am not a moderator, and I never will be. To quote LBJ: If I am nominated, I will not run. If I am elected, I will not serve.

Dave is the web master and clearly stated he will not monitor the forum since he has too many other things on his plate. However, if complaints come to his attention, he will then made a case-by-case decision. How much more fair do you want that? Same policy Steve had!

My only involvment is to try to better sort the archives to make the information there easier to find. There are 800 topics under Misc. alone and way more than that as un-catagorized. Many clearly belong under an existing category. Dave doesn't have the time to do this, I do.

As long as the forum monitors itself, Dave has no reason to become involved except in extreme cases.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), December 21, 2000.

Hi Joel: Me again. Did anyone ever tell you what happens when you ASSUME things???? I don't recall, nor can I find it when I re-read it that I gave you my definition of homesteading. Homesteading IS my political and my spiritual statement. I love the countryside philosophy statement. You just assumed that we had a different idea about homesteading. Thanks Joy for the welcome back. I really never left, just lurked a lot and spent a bunch of time in the archives trying to decide if this was something I really wanted to participate in. I am never sure if the stuff I smoked and ate in the sixties is affecting my perception until I take time to digest things. This is a wonderful site, and I already find myself thinking of people here as long lost "family". (that includes you Joel, I find myself praying for you while I am milking or something and I don't even know anything about you except what I have been able to see from your forum responses) Hope you all have a great day, snow again in Michigan. First day of winter, shortest day of the year?? It's downhill from here??? in love - diane

-- Diane Green (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), December 21, 2000.

Diane, I agree with your comments. I have not seen anything, except readers' comments, about censorship or controlling this site. Ken has said he is going to try to sort post by classification.

To me it sounds as if Joel is jealous he was not selected for the task!

-- JLS in NW AZ (stalkingbull007@AOL.com), December 21, 2000.

I'm still confused, JLS, what does not getting to do the sorting have to do with it. That takes desire and patience, not everyone could do it, I'd love it. But then I've done a 5,000 piece jig saw puzzle. Will someone put this in simple terms for me and anyone that ain't catching on? Joel, what is it you're "really" angry about? Of all the people I'd miss, if they weren't here, you're in the top five.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), December 21, 2000.

Hey I think if Ken would be willing to take his time and try to make heads and tails of all the old posts GO FOR IT KEN, we need it!!Will he become a dictator? Really dout he has time .

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), December 21, 2000.

I understand what Joel is upset about. I really can't stand the political chat thread thing either. If we do that then we should just post the topics and change the format (please don't do that....please please please don't!) because then people could ignore things they don't know about without perhaps stumbling onto it. So they wouldn't "waste" their time.

Perhaps even though this might seem out of proportion to some of us, it is actually a subject very worth discussing. It's kinda nice to see Joel all fired up again, too.IMHO.

Someone said that free speech is what you do at home????? That's very untrue. It is becoming more the norm, and it is a slap in the face to people who value their freedom.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 21, 2000.

Everyone take a chill pill ! Boy can we get upset over little things . Ken sort out all are old stuff , lord knows I cannot find something when I need it .As for censorship , I think the only things that will be removed is the sicko that talks about having sex with his sheep or the person telling us what great porno sites he or she found .I hope the idiots that use every 4 letter word in the book too .There is no need for some of the language or the personal attacks .CS does not have to give us this forum , it belongs to them and they and only they can run it as they see fit .Lets voice are opions and also thank them for maintaining this site for us .

-- Patty (fodfarms@slic.com), December 21, 2000.

Doreen: please read what I said again. Freedom of speech is what you do in your own SPACE. Like you can't walk into a crowded theater and yell fire. No one who owns a newspaper is required to publish every story you might want to see published. You can and should publish your own newpaper if you feel so inclined, at your own expense. Can I come to your home and have the right to shout every obscenity and spout every opinion I have under my first amendment rights? This space is paid for by the publishers of Countryside magazine. That is what I was trying to say. I hope that clarifies things. diane

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), December 21, 2000.

What am angry about ?--At the front of every bad decision in this forum to date--there was Ken. He said edit,delete and change titles. Why stop there ? Just put Ken's name on every post since he feels like assuming the role of Adolf Hitler. And no I don't want the job--there is no need of the position

It never ceases to amaze how gullable you all are. You don't need to read about sheep for you are already lambs fit for the slaughter. They wouldn't even have to tell you there was a prize behind the door. You would whole heartily run to the gas chambers with a smile. It all starts with one simple rule and ends in the extermination of a species. Maybe not jews this time--how about homesteaders ?

Well I believe I have 700 some posts in this forum so Ken Hitler can start with me. DELETE THEM ALL, every last word and strike my name from every pillar and wall !! When the last word I ever spoke is deleted than I'll leave with the satifaction that none of my words are part of this sham covered in chocolate made of poison pie. EVERY ATTEMPT YOU MADE TO MAKE IT BETTER DESTOYED IT'S SOUL !!! So let it be written, so let it be done !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), December 21, 2000.

All this fuss about nothing!It's a great board.It will stay that way. For those who think a tiny bit of regulation,to keep it suitable for my grandchildren,is too much....well it's been nice knowing you.

-- JT Sessions (gone2seed@hotmail.com), December 21, 2000.

Personally I like the political chat thread idea---it helps to consolidate the political discussions into one easy-to-locate discussion. If we don't like it, don't go there. No one will ever please everyone so theres no point trying. We all seem to agree on the basics---no smut, profanity etc. Lets keep it simple, agree to agree, disagree, help out or not.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), December 21, 2000.

Much ado about nothing. Joel, have you been hanging out with Nick again?

-- Queen (queenbuffness@hotmail.com), December 21, 2000.

Free speach is not a God given right. It's a right gained by fighting for freedom by men and women from the time of the Revolutionary War and every day since. It's a right given by our Constitution and those who have fought and died to preserve it.

-- Joe (jcole@apha.com), December 21, 2000.


OK, you win. I quit!!! Absolutely no changes will be made to the archives to try to get them in some semblence of order, nor will any archived titles be change to better reflect content. Forget about any new categories.

I thought it would be helpful for all forum members, but if it is going to raise such a stink, and the intent be so grossly misinterpreted, that it isn't worth taking yours or anyone elses verbal abuse.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), December 21, 2000.

Good grief people!

Well, now that Ken has decided the hassle and ill- will is not worth the effort, to clarify the posts that have subject lines no one can decipher what the post contains...

could y'all just state exactly what your post is about for once?!

Geeze, a little organizational boost to help us homesteaders find what we need in a hurry instead of having to try and read everyones mind...seemed like a smart idea.

guess not.

Peace, Sarah

-- Sarah (heartsongacres@juno.com), December 21, 2000.

Is it me, or this whole thing kinda wierd? Maybe it's the Winter Solstice. Maybe it's just wierd. I don't know. John

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), December 21, 2000.

I have to agree with Joel on his basic principle. Although, I think we're a ways off from it. I have seen other forums get really boring because they put so much moderating on them, just for a few. But, I honestly don't think Ken is that type. He seems like a good guy. Awhile back there was a little off color joke that was posted so anyone who opened it, knew it was that type of joke. Yet there were still complaints. When I read the complaints, this thought came to me. This forum is often described as talking over the fence. I don't see it as such. To me it's more of a country gathering. Have you all ever been to one? People get into groups, where they're talking about what interest them. Somtimes you walk around from group to group. If there's a discussion you don't much care about, you walk over to the next group. At these gatherings you always have the ones who are a little more, let's say "sensitive", then, over down the hill a little bit, you have the more "lively" crowd. They're playing cards, drinking a few beers and telling a few off color jokes and talking politics and other colorful subjects. They're usually not immoral or too rude. At least the regular folks. I like to go down the hill once in awhile and jump right in with them. Yet sometimes, I like to talk with the gardeners or go talk about animals or woodstoves or sewing. If we only had one group at the gathering that limited what we could discuss, it would get mighty boring. I think countryside and Ken get this. Hopefully they're just being the host of the gathering . And when newcomers arrive, they'll tell them they might want to watch out for the lively ones down the hill. And if the "down the hillers" get too vulgar, they get sent home. But in my opinion, the majority of the "down the hillers" are the ones who have been coming to the gathering for quite awhile and are decent folks. It's the "show offs" who stop by every once in awhile that cause the trouble and need to be sent home. So, in summary, the forum is working great now. If little things offend some people, stay at the top of the hill!

as Sheepish would say....just my .02 cents

-- Annie (mistletoe@earthlink.net), December 21, 2000.

Thanks John, yeah - weird. I just keep reading stuff over and over and wonder if I am part of the solution or part of the problem. Wish I had never jumped on this one in the first place. I should know better. I have a brother that I love dearly that goes off just like Joel and I have never really learned to just leave it alone. Sorry folks if I fanned the flame- was really just trying to put out the match. diane

-- Diane G. (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), December 21, 2000.

Ken, if you quit, whol'll do it? It needs to be done. What needs to be done? Putting all those misc. threads under proper heading. A challenge yes. Fun, for me it would be, but I don't know computer stuff. I'd really enjoy doing it. If all those threads were organized, we wouldn't have so many repeat answers. There's a whole host of information that's going to waste because it's in misc. We could even do with a few more categories. I index magazine articles so I can find them when I want them. A lot of people have told me they cut articles out. I don't because 1. I don't like doing it 2. There might be an article I want on the back of the other one. And you can't do that on here, anyway. What Ken was/is going to do, is time consuming and not all that easy, and some things could go under more than one category. But think of the time it would save and the frustrations. This doesn't change my opinion of Joel, and if he leaves the forum, I will miss him.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), December 21, 2000.

What would we do without Joel? He keeps the pot stirred, that's for sure. And what would we do without Ken? He keeps the pot from burning! The rest of us keep throwing ingredients in!

(I like Annie's analogy of the country gathering much better though.)

Gonna be a long winter. Hope we can maintain some civility and perspective for the duration! Easy to get cranky when you're cold, wet, tired, or can't get out of your driveway. I just spent a lot of time in the dark this a.m so it's kind of fresh on my mind.......

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), December 21, 2000.

Did anyone notice the thingy on the bottom of this thread-those ads or whatever that greenspun added a while back? It is kinda ironic...and appropriate too. :) (I hope you all see the same one I do with the dogs tiffing and the main thought-the more people you interact with the more chance youhave for trouble...)

Time for a new subject?

Peace AND blessings to *everyone* here!


-- Sarah (heartsongacres@juno.com), December 21, 2000.

Well, I'll take no victory dances, no victory laps, and I found no pleasure in what I did !

If you wish to ORGANIZE the misc threads than I have no problem with that. However the cold words were edit,delete and CHANGE TITLES and I'd rather die in ditches than see you take someone else's work and arrange it to suit your taste.

In fact, I had greatly reduced my number of posts as of late to see which direction this forum would head--to see if I could learn something from you. Than came this --well I'm never going to learn to grovel to any authority except one and I never intend to learn corwardice in the face of tyranny. Free Speech is a God given right and I'll thank no man for my right to exercise it ! Happy Homesteading and if you can salvage any Christmas spirit than go for it ! I actually didn't need this battle at this time of year, Thank You Very Much !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), December 21, 2000.

I only hope that Joel doesn't change the entire world over to fit his vision of what it should be too soon. If he did, what would he have to rant and rave about to keep him interested in life?

-- ray s. (mmoetc@yahoo.com), December 21, 2000.

Joel, It has never been an arguemement of "freedom of speech", but instead a simple issue of being polite and showing some manners and of course being supportive of the folks that provide this arena for all of us to interact. I enjoy off color humor, but I also know others don't, therefore, I email direct with those that share my tastes while utilizing this forum for topics of discussion. At times some topics may be controversial but we handle them and most are very informative. As I see it the only "freedom" that is being addressed is the use of vulgar language by some in the posts. Most anyone can recall being asked not to be "guttermouthed" by parents and teachers growing up. Why do they feel it neccessary to use this language as adults? Everyone should show some manners. I find your posts very interesting and informative. Happy Holidays.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), December 21, 2000.

It is December 21st. Where is the spirit of Christmas? Blessings to all and Joel I think you are great. Merry Christmas. I probably won't be back for several days.

-- bwilliams (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), December 21, 2000.

It seems to me that the people who responded to this thread are about 99% agreement that they do not want, or need censorship or editing. I also understood Ken to say that he just wanted to make the archives more accessible to those who use them. A person could needlessly spend the better part of the day searching through old messages trying to find an answer to their question. Joel, correct me if I'm wrong, but is not the role of moderater, at least in part, to help keep the peace??? Have you not played that role before on this forum? I am referring to at least one incidence with Greenbeanman being upset with something on this forum. Did you not step in with words of encouragement to try to keep the peace? I know that's a far cry from cencorship, but I really don't think that is the issue here. I sincerely hope that you will take time to calm down, think things over, and "come back to the fold." IMHO, this forum would be seriously diminished without you and your food for thought!!

-- Tie A. (knot@endofrope.com), December 21, 2000.

The case with greenbeanman was a friend to friend plea for forgiveness and I did not act for Countryside. I also understood when he said NO. If I let Ken change the title of one of my posts than it is no longer mine, it is his post and I'm a co-author. I'm not willing to give up my rights to artistic impression.

Lesley once said something to the effect that she felt an ownership here and well the martchas should. They along with myself and others built this into one of the best kept forums in cyberspace. Than came the grumblers--well I don't like this and I don't like that and still we welcomed them with open arms. Collectively they brought the forum to some kind of politically correct nightmare that made the old one unrecognizable.

I had a dialect with Steve. We understood te importance of healthy debate to achieve a new idea. Thus this was named "The Forum". Many people who have screamed the loudest about bashing are the worst for it and the thinnest skinned at taking it. I've seen sheepish get bashed to the wall and come back brush herself and write the most profound rhetoric --leaving her unwaring victim speechless ! I do suggest you come well prepared to a battle of witty interpretation if you wish to function here. If you can't take it than there is a possibility that this may not be exactly what you are looking for--or maybe you'll find a great new talent ? Either way, as in the real world, protect yourself at all times !

On the other hand I also encourage decency and respect for others. "Listen to the dull and ignorant, for the to have their say" The battle you have just witnessed was a battle of ideals--much like is carried on in your devout House and Senate. It contained high levels of respect and equally high levels of rhetoric. It was a battle against even the appearance of tyranny. Yes, I used extreme examples to show where we were heading if we allow the taking of any more of our freedoms. The esteemed gentlemen across the aisle,could not hope to explain anything further after using words like edit, delete and change. Those words are the basis of oppression, in fact, they are the A,B,C's of oppression. I did what I had to do--I cannot and will not recant !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), December 21, 2000.

I tried to post this earlier and was met by computer glitches Galore. I should probably take that as a hint to keep my mouth shut, but as I am generally inclined to express myself, here it is.

First of all I have to say that I admire your passion Joel. You really throw yourself wholeheartedly into every endevor you undertake. I wish there were more people like that. Countryside/Greenspun cannot take my free speech. I choose to say what I want. Free speech is a God-given right. What the Constitution upheld was man's God given right to free speech and insured that the government couldn't interfere in that right. If however someone is holding a gun to your head, you still have a right to free speech. Joel, you are excercising yours. My free speech is not under threat. I will continue to speak freely, until they remove me or shut the forum down. I am excerising my God-given right to free speech. Honestly, I am rather sad that you are feeling so threatened. I don't feel that Ken is trying to take over the forum. I think that he has had personal involvement with the family and it is natural for them to ask a friend to help out when they need someone. Ken has written a number of articles for the Mag. I appreciate both your contributions to the forum and Ken's. I think you both have totally different perspectives that you bring here. I think there is a compromise. Everyone here has everyone elses e-mail addresses. If any one on the forum feels that their posts have been pulled unjustly, then let them bring it before the masses. I know that if any of you posts didn't get through I would be more than a little upset, more than willing to jump ship. So why can't we play a little wait and see game. I am sure after this post nobody will be unclear about the guy to e-mail if they have a problem. I am also sure you are quite capable of letting us know. I am actually glad that you stood up and told us how this was getting on your nerves. I don't think it is a good idea for animosity toward anyone to be floating around in the forum. Let peace reign in your heart Joel. There are many of us who are not lambs headed for slaughter. We are tigers, who know how to find our own way. There are many other avenues for homestead discussion besides here. I personally own a Christian based homestead e-mail list, that a member or two has joined. There are many others besides mine. I enjoy this forum, because there is all this free flowing conversation, but I have no problem finding my own way if necessary. I think we can all get along, because there are always other options. Also, this forum works to the advantage of the Mag, because we all buy the magazine. They can't afford to alienate us.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), December 21, 2000.

I don't see deleting really obnoxious posts as a threat to free speech. There are all kinds of other places for obscenity and filth to be posted. Just like I wopuldn't expect to walk into a church and spout off a long speech on atheism or dirty jokes without being ushered to the door. I can still stand out in the middle of the road and talk all I want, so I would still have free speech. Neither would I expect to walk into a white supremecist meeting and talk about what a blessing the Jews have been to our country and pass a plate to collect donations to assist Israel against the Palestinians. free speech doesn't mean (the way I see it) the right to spout off whatever nonsense wherever, whenever and for as long as I want to. It just means I can talk and the government should not be able to come and shut me up. But we don't have free speech anyway.

From what I can tell, Ken doesn't seem to want to limit what goes on here, and it didn't seem like Dave did, either. I would like to know how everyone would like it if a bunch of perverse weirdoes got on here and completly dominated the site by flooding it with such filth as most of us would not imagine, on every thread, multiple times, and ranting against you if you protested against it, calling you a homosexual, or saying that you screw with animals, or other such garbage. I would beg to have it removed! The dairy goats.com site had exactly that happen to it. We couldn't discuss anything in an intelligent way becasue we had to wade through a lot of filth to find anything worthwhile.Ignoring the offender did not work, nor did asking them to quit it, or insulting them, or reasoning with them. Most of us left. The ones that stayed tried to contact the webmaster, and then the site got shut down entirely. It was the same kind of trash as on the pig smell, only worse and a lot more of it, and the person would do it in our names. It looks to me like the same thing could happen here, and that if it didn't get deleted, we'd lose the forum altogether.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), December 21, 2000.

This to me is a discussion under the title of "Much To Do About Nothing"

I have only been visiting this forum since about Feburary 2000, and with the resposting of the same questions all the time, I can't really see how many folks are using the archives anyway, just delete them, perhaps 4 times a year, like most forums do. Nobody is making anybody post their political threads under that one thread, it was a mutual decision. Live life dangerously and simply post your own thread. When their is bad language, it is rebuked by some and ignored by most. I for one thought the JOJ vs Little B.... thread was entertaining, and probably brewing for a long time! I really can't believe for an instant that many of you think this is a "Family" forum, certainly not with young children anyway. Though with my kids older and certainly raised by liberal mom here, some of the threads are definetly table talk for all of us. I think some of you take things much to seriously. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), December 21, 2000.


I feel compelled to offer the following two observations:

Comparing Ken, or anyone else, to Adolf Hitler, constitutes a personal attack. That was dishonorable.

The high levels of "rhetoric and respect" you refer to was completely lacking in your posts.



-- Robert (STBARB@usa.net), December 21, 2000.

Using comparisons of people that are acting similar is far from dishonorable, Bob. Our Senators call each other far worse on an hourly basis !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), December 21, 2000.

Yeah Bob, call it like it is, a asshole is a asshole.

-- JLS in NW AZ (stalkingbull007@AOL.com), December 21, 2000.

That would be *an* *%#!!@()& is *an* *%#!!@(). Let's get our grammar right so as not to offend.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 21, 2000.

Doreen, Weather you meant to or not, you hit on one of the solutions same as whats used in print media. Great response.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), December 21, 2000.

Isn't it amazing that we consider ourselves the highest order of species on the planet? Here people are, slandering, degrading, and downright attacking others over their own personal beliefs. Joel is far right wing in his beliefs, while others here are surely far left...and that leaves everyone else somewhere in the middle. No one will win, but we all shall lose. Should one find his or her views do not match those of the majority, then find a forum that more directly reflects your ideas, or opinions. Nothing has been done to anything in this forum as of yet, so how can people complain? Spectulation only leads to rumors, which always leads to confrontation...something this forum does not need. This is a homesteading, country living type of site, so lets quit harping on the political, social, and economic problems, and get back to helping each other with all those questions that we all have, and leave the other topics for another forum-or the 6:30 news!

-- Joe (Threearrs@AOL.com), December 21, 2000.

You know,it just came to me and I don't know why I didn't see it before.What we have here is a spoiled teenager not a mature adult. If you doubt it look back over his recent posts.Particularly the "jokes" etc. I think Bob hit the nail on the head with his description. And for Ken....hope you will reconsider.We do need to have it organized.Don't let the whining of one baby spoil it for the rest of us.

-- JT Sessions (gone2seed@hotmail.com), December 21, 2000.

I completely disagree with Ms. Vicki about deleting the archives. I do use and have used the archives frequently. They are what allowed me to "sample" the magazine before I became a subscriber. They have also allowed me, and I'm sure others,to "catch up" to the ones who have been here longer; to know a little about who they are, their beliefs and their struggles. The archives of this forum certainly contain a WEALTH of information not centrally located aywhere else, with the exception of Carla's book. And just like her book, you can get a glimpse of the person, good and bad, behind the words. That is one of the reasons I think so many of us like her book so much, and like this forum so much too. Like it enough to fight for it. I agree the archives could be organized better, but I also agree they should be re-classified EXACTLY as written, titles included. I have learned a lot about topics not specifically ,ahem, "homestead" related that has challenged me to think and grow. This, in turn, has made me a better homesteader. I may not post often, but if my vote counts please do NOT delete the archives. I'm getting off my soapbox now.

-- Steven in NC (ThicketyRowFarm@Aol.com), December 21, 2000.

Steven in NC, there has been considerable confusion over what I believe was proposed. First the ONLY section to be worked upon was the Miscellaneous section. There are over 700 threads in this single section. Ken was going to attempt to catorgize this thread into some order such that they would be easier to search. To do this the TITLE might be changed (Sorta like a newspaper headline) to more accurately reflect the content of the thread. If you have visited many threads, you will note there is a tendency to drift off the original poster's concept and sometimes the original title is misleading as to content. The censorship was added to and expanded upon by other posters.

The idea that the Miscellaneous thread needs to be organized is the core item of discussion, or at least should be.

Other interpretations welcome.

-- JLS in NW AZ (stalkingbull007@AOL.com), December 21, 2000.

Ok this post is getting no where real fast and will more then likely end up hurting some ones feeling or the group. I still have no problem w/ Ken or anyone tring to organize the old threads we need it, DO NOT ZAP THEM AWAY PLEASE!!!!! How about from this point forward we all agree that if our posts do not include key word{s} we allow the wording to be changed only on the heading. If old threads are not clear we agree to allow person x{Ken} to add a key word or phrase, not reword but add to it.?This way we will not have anything removed just added to. We all will need to make an effort to watch our wording in the Question or allow it to be added to.I agree some one should watch out for nasty language{the pig smell} and zap them away. I would just hope this can work out in a civil way.

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), December 21, 2000.

I agree there has been considerable confusion, what I don't agree to is why. Yes, I understand that the Misc. AND uncat. files were to be reclassified. I was also voicing my opinion on a suggestion to delete the achives altogether - certainly still on topic. I was also trying to make a point that the title of a thread, even if it eventually was no longer indicative of its content, was just as important to the character of this forum as is content. If I understand Mr. Rosen's assertion correctly, The editing of even the title of a thread constitutes censorship, because an individual's freedom to creatively express themselves(even if it is the title) was being manipulated. The title is just as important as content. I agree. The reason, as I understand it, that Mr.Ken was going to EDIT the titles was to make them easier to search. The lack of a capable search mechanism seems to be the root of all of this. Perhaps that is the area the creative enrgies need to be directed to. Just my .02

-- Steven in NC (ThicketyRowFarm@Aol.com), December 21, 2000.

Steven in NC,

I agree with you. I believe we do have to safeguard our freedoms, and be aware of possible breaches. Some general housekeeping is most likely in order in the misc. section. Changes to content must be made with forethought. This includes thread titles, otherwise the personality of the individual may be lost. Heck, there are a few personalities I can pick our from the dialect in the posting and I'd miss them if they were gone. We must monitor that fine line.

-- Anne (HT@HM.com), December 21, 2000.

Bob & JT. My thoughts exactly.

-- sharon wt (wildflower@ekyol.com), December 21, 2000.

Steven in NC, the Windows search feature works well. IF you have good titles. No different from newspaper headlines, which are generally not written by the author (journalist).

-- JLS in NW AZ (stalkingbull007@AOL.com), December 22, 2000.

JLS, The windows "Search" function is about as useless as teets on a boar hog. For Example: You posted a helpful response in Hoot's "Dumb Move" post. Even if we allowed manipulation of the title, (So it's no longer exactly what Hoot wanted to convey when HE wrote the title)the windows "search" function wouldn't have picked up your reccomendation of spider webs. Would you now classify the post as medicinal so we could all find your post with the windows "search" feature? That clearly, IMHO, was not Hoot's intent when HE wote the thing. A proper search feature would allow you scan the archives for content, regardless of title. We don't have that. If we did, this entire episode would have never happened. Who would care what category the post was labeled under, OR it's title, if you could properly search.

-- Steven in NC (ThicketyRowFarm@Aol.com), December 22, 2000.

Steve in NC..I agree it would be great to be able to search under content.Some times (most times ) the threads start out being one thing and end up containing other bunny trails.I consider this forum to be like anything else you donate your time to.Once you make a donation,sharing you wisdom or encouragement with some one ,or asking a question you are sort of out of control of it.There seems to be some who want recognized for their contributions,while isee nothing wrong with that ,..this is not the sort of place to get your back patted.Write a book or start a new magazine if that is what they want.What difference does it make once you have given it who it helps or how,you did your part.Is any of this making sense to anyone,sorry for rambling but it makes me sad to see some of what has gone on lately.Perhaps in the future we may need some type of censor ship but that is definately not what ken was saying. Love to all this holy season,all my dustbunnies are frozen or they would send greetings too...teri

-- teri (mrs_smurf2000@yahoo.ca), December 22, 2000.

Goodness, should I even attempt to enter this discussion? First of all I really like and respect both Joel and Ken. They are both a wealth of knowledge and very thought provoking.

I agree that some organizing would be helpful. But I also think it can be accomplished without editing or changing the title. How about symbols w/ a key to denote what one might expect? Such as an R rating for adult stuff? Or if a misc. title is about chickens but doesn't clearly state that in the title, just move it to the hen house without revision. Or in the case of my example, just put (hens) next to the title to elaborate what it is about without changing anything. Or if a thread is a joke but doesn't say so, put (joke) next to the title. If it is off color put (joke R). Or if there is bad language maybe a symbol for that too.

Personally I can usually tell if I want to continue reading pretty quickly and just because I may choose not to continue doesn't mean I'm offended. I can monitor things for myself as far as whether it's objectionable. But realizing not everyone is the same and that some would like to know ahead of time why not clue them in with symbols or something without changing anything?

I don't want to see this sort of thing hurt anyone our turn anyone off from our forum. I think we already understand the different points of view about this. Isn't it time to come to a practical solution that the opposing viewpoints can live with? Be logical and realize that things never stay exactly same. There is always going to be change, sometimes for good and sometimes for bad. I really believe this can be a win win situation if we all put our heads together.

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), December 22, 2000.

Joel Where is it that Free speech was a god given thing? I know of no place in the world that that statement is true. If anything it is a man given right and can be taken away by man if abused. In the early west if you were impolite or said the wrong thing they would give you a choice, hanging, getting shot, or tar and feathers. You choose. If you say the wrong thing anywhere you can loose a few teeth at the very least. Use free speech any way you want in a public place and you will be asked to leave or escorted OUT. Go to most countries and shoot off your mouth the wrong way you will find yourself talking to a wall or the other prisoners. But most of all why do you have to use a cannon for a fly swatter? Use common sense and show common curtisy towards others and life will become a lot better. I like a good discussion but if I want what you put out on this post I'll go to Disney World. They have a whole kingdom for you there.

-- Nick (wildheaart@ekyol.com), December 22, 2000.

Well Queen, obviously Joel has not been hanging out with Nick.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), December 22, 2000.

If somebody finds Joel's teddy would they PLEASE throw it back in the pram.


-- Pauline (tworoosters_farm@altavista.com), December 22, 2000.

Amen to that, Pauline.

-- Steve in TN (lynswim@mindspring.com), December 22, 2000.

Obviously NOT!!! Thankyou and God bless you, Nick.Q.

-- Queen (queenbuffness@hotmail.com), December 22, 2000.

Nick, did not God give you a mouth, that you could speak at will from? Ahh! Free Speech!

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), December 22, 2000.

Along with the "god" given right of free speech comes the responsibility of facing the consequences for that speech. Just because you are able to say something doesn't guarantee that those around you will agree and not choose some earthly punishment for you. You may be righteous in the eyes of the lord, but it can still hurt a whole bunch in this corporeal world.

-- ray s (mmoetc@yahoo.com), December 22, 2000.

If someone finds my teddy, would you please put it back in my lingerie drawer? Unless it needs to go in the wash.....

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), December 22, 2000.

What will you do without your freedom/forum?

Geeze Joel, my house would be cleaner, my girls would have their hooves all trimmed, and I wouldn't be out trimming an udder knowing full well the doe is in early labor! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), December 22, 2000.

Joel: I've thot about this off and on all day. First, let me respectfully submit, you crossed the line of civil discourse with your entirely uncalled for name calling. Ken has graciously and generously offered his services to COUNTRYSIDE MAGAZINE, the owner of this forum, to make the archived material more accesible and user friendly for all of us.

Now, as a result of your whining, he has opted out, therefore depriving the rest of us of a more useable archive. We have you to thank for that and I don't. In the future I would suggest you choose your battles more carefully and really look before you shoot off your mouth.

You call us fools for not sharing in your paranoid fantasies, imagining some dark conspiracy behind a thotful and well intended service to us all. So dance your victory dance and I hope you step on a nail.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), December 22, 2000.

A-MEN TO JOHN!!!!!! Sonda in ks.

-- Sonda (sgbruce@birch.net), December 23, 2000.

I think it is time to let all of this die a graceful death. There is no reason to continue hurting people and make this drag on. I certainly am also not going to post on either of the two parties Kudo threads, because I like and respect both of them. I don't think it helps anyone for us to drive an even greater wedge between them by choosing sides. Those threads imply that there are two different camps. Lets just all be one camp please.I say give Ken and Joel time to come to a private healing between themselves and let it go. I don't want to see either Ken or Joel hurt anymore than they already have been. Ultimately it won't be the end of the world if we just leave the archives the way they are. I feel bad for both of these contributors to our forum, because both of them got hurt. I don't think it does any good casting blame and continuing to draw out the anger in this situation. All this will lead to is more dissension. How about we just call it over?

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), December 23, 2000.

and an A-MEN to Little bit!!! Best piece I've read on this whole mess yet. The end.

-- Annie (mistletoe@earthlink.net), December 23, 2000.

Ken should be allowed to organize the archives. Ken has no business changing the names of the threads to fit his needs,nor changing the content of these threads. Threads are individual and reflect the person that wrote them, good or bad.

Editting out curse words is perfectly acceptable to me,although editting out the entire thread because that person used some curse words is unaceptable unless the entire thread is vulgar.

Now who set's the standard for vulgar? Who decides what is a curse word? And how do we know who ever is doing the changes doesn't have conflict?

We act like children, and some of you who disagreed with joel really showed your intelligence. I wonder why the censor's didn't come to joel's aide when JLS called him an ******. matter of fact that seamed to allow the rest of you to pick up the pace and gang up. Wow, what a vicious bunch you are. If you disagree with someone, what gives you the right to belittle that person?

Hey,Ken, What happened to you, after the name calling started, you if you were sincere about cleaning up the language should have come to Joel's aide weather he was right or wrong. You can't hide and say you didn't come back to this thread. I wouldn't believe you. Matter of fact, truth be known you probably gloated.

-- hillbilly (internethillbilly@hotmail.com), December 26, 2000.

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