Trolls - A User's Guide

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Unk's Wild Wild West : One Thread

Well some things never change.

As long as there are forums there will be trolls.

Trolls, on general, are defined as posters who post on threads merely to denigrade their fellow posters, stop the flow of communication between posters or both.

I am not talking about posters who - in the heat of a controversial topic - say rude things to someone they disagree with. Such behavior may be impolite but it is not specifically targeted to disrupt the function of the forum itself.

It has been my fortune to observe four kinds of trolls (perhaps others can point out more).

Whining Trolls These trolls just like to complain about whatever is going on. For some reason these individuals think that the forum needs to conform to their idea about what is right. These are generally benign - if annoying - and can sometimes evolve into useful contributors.

Bully Trolls These trolls enjoy making personal attacks for the fun of it. Emboldened by the anonymity of their keyboards they bravely say nasty things they would be promptly shunned for in any normal social setting. Like 4th grade bullys with a chip on their shoulders they crave attention and love to call people names.

Mercenary Trolls These are trolls with a mission. They have dedicated themselves to the task of disrupting the functioning of the forum itself. They may actually be under hire or merely obsessed with destroying something they feel is wrong.

Mad Dog Trolls The most virulent of all the trolls, these folks are simply crazy. They have no pride or shame and so will do anything and everything to disrupt a forum for reasons known only to them.

In general, the best way to deal with a troll is by ignoring it. Without attention and responses to their posts there is not much they can do. So my first and foremost advice (for what its worth) is to ignore a troll's posts. This may not work in the case of the Mad Dogs but nothing short of shooting them on site seems to help, and even then it may be too late.

In the case of a Mercenary Troll they generally have a lot of pride at stake and want to appear smart. They want to feel justified that they are not wasting their time. They want to feel like they are smart people doing their job. Name calling and flaming will not work but sometimes embroiling them in logical debate will. (I said sometimes). ;-) However, only very popular controversial sites tend to attract these folks (such as TB2K).

All of the above said I believe that trolls have a function in the on-line world. Much like hyenaes. If a forum is strong and vibrant, with healthy ideas and intelligent discussion then the posters tend to be too interested in what is going on to pay much attention to the trolls. However, once a forum begins to show signs of decay - usually due to infighting amoung the regulars - then the trolls run rampant and it is only a matter of time before the forum disintegrates.

Forums are mortal. They grow stale, age and eventually die. It is in the death throes that the scavengers come in and pick the bones. Forcing the regulars to form new forums and evolve.

Trolls also create a climate of unity among those who are participating according to the forum's expressed purpose. It is a sad fact that most cultures need a scapegoat - a unifying enemy. Trolls certainly provide that function very well.

Trolls keep threads alive. They tend to attack the more interesting threads. This insures that the life of that thread will stay vibrant long beyond it's normal life span.

Trolls remind us that this is not private space. Lurkers are everywhere but it is easy to forget that. Chatting away on a thread with an old buddy it is easy to reveal personal details about one's life that you might not really want public. Trolls remind us that in a public forum anyone can read what we write.

I am not denying that trolls can be annoying, exasperating and downright destructive. However, as long as we have pubic forums we will have trolls. It is far better to use them to keep a forum alive and vital than it is to bemoan their existance.

If a forum or thread is being over run by trolls then it is time to realize that the forum itself is losing energy. Not because the trolls are there but because the regulars themselves are not putting the energy in to keep it strong and vital. If a forum has aged past the point of hope then it is going to die anyway and it is best to move on. And moving on - exchanging ideas, meeting new minds from all over the world is what the net is about.

All that said this forum appears to me to be strong and healthy. Full of passion, communication and a troll or two.

-- riversoma (riversoma@aol.com), December 12, 2000

Answers

You waste our time with that long winded response when all you had to say was -- someone doesn't like me and bardou so to me they are a troll. BooHoo nanny nanny.

-- (Not@be.liever), December 12, 2000.

Whining Trolls These trolls just like to complain about whatever is going on. For some reason these individuals think that the forum needs to conform to their idea about what is right. These are generally benign - if annoying - and can sometimes evolve into useful contributors.

Kinda like yourself on the "genitalia" thread, huh? [ya just HAD to convince everyone those puppies weren't real!]

Maybe you can become a valuable contributor sometime, eh?

-- Friendly Neighborhood Mercenary Troll (wow@what.ego!), December 12, 2000.


Something about online communications seems to make some people particularly irritable. Perhaps it's the immediacy and semi-anonymity of it all. Whatever it is, there are whole classes of people you will soon think seem to exist to make you miserable.

Rather than pausing and reflecting on a message as one might do with a letter received on paper, it's just so easy to hit your R key and tell somebody you don't really know what you really think of them. Even otherwise calm people sometimes find themselves turning into raving lunatics. When this happens, flames erupt.

A flame is a particularly nasty, personal attack on somebody for something he or she has written. Periodically, an exchange of flames erupts into a flame war that begin to take up all the space in a given newsgroup (and sometimes several; flamers like cross-posting to let the world know how they feel). These can go on for weeks (sometimes they go on for years, in which case they become "holy wars," usually on such topics as the relative merits of Macintoshes and IBMs). Often, just when they're dying down, somebody new to the flame war reads all the messages, gets upset and issues an urgent plea that the flame war be taken to e- mail so everybody else can get back to whatever the newsgroup's business is. All this usually does, though, is start a brand new flame war, in which this poor person comes under attack for daring to question the First Amendment, prompting others to jump on the attackers for impugning this poor soul... You get the idea.

Every so often, a discussion gets so out of hand that somebody predicts that either the government will catch on and shut the whole thing down or somebody will sue to close down the network, or maybe even the wrath of God will smote everybody involved. This brings what has become an inevitable rejoinder from others who realize that the network is, in fact, a resilient creature that will not die easily: "Imminent death of Usenet predicted. Film at 11."

Flame wars can be tremendously fun to watch at first. They quickly grow boring, though. And wait until the first time you're attacked!

Flamers are not the only Net.characters to watch out for.

Spewers assume that whatever they are particularly concerned about either really is of universal interest or should be rammed down the throats of people who don't seem to care -- as frequently as possible.

You can usually tell a spewer's work by the number of articles he posts in a day on the same subject and the number of newsgroups to which he then sends these articles -- both can reach well into double digits. Often, these messages relate to various ethnic conflicts around the world. Frequently, there is no conceivable connection between the issue at hand and most of the newsgroups to which he posts. No matter. If you try to point this out in a response to one of these messages, you will be inundated with angry messages that either accuse you of being an insensitive racist/American/whatever or ignore your point entirely to bring up several hundred more lines of commentary on the perfidy of whoever it is the spewer thinks is out to destroy his people.

Closely related to these folks are the Holocaust revisionists, who periodically inundate certain groups (such as soc.history) with long rants about how the Holocaust never really happened. Some people attempt to refute these people with facts, but others realize this only encourages them.

Blatherers tend to be more benign. Their problem is that they just can't get to the point -- they can wring three or four screenfuls out of a thought that others might sum up in a sentence or two. A related condition is excessive quoting. People afflicted with this will include an entire message in their reply rather than excising the portions not relevant to whatever point they're trying to make. The worst quote a long message and then add a single line:

"I agree!" or some such, often followed by a monster .signature (see section Big Sig). There are a number of other Usenet denizens you'll soon come to recognize. Among them:

Net.weenies
These are the kind of people who enjoy Insulting others, the kind of people who post nasty messages in a sewing newsgroup just for the hell of it.

Net.geeks
People to whom the Net is Life, who worry about what happens when they graduate and they lose their free, 24-hour access.

Net.gods
The old-timers; the true titans of the Net and the keepers of its collective history. They were around when the Net consisted of a couple of computers tied together with baling wire.

Lurkers
Actually, you can't tell these people are there, but they are. They're the folks who read a newsgroup but never post or respond.

Wizards
People who know a particular Net-related topic inside and out. Unix wizards can perform amazing tricks with that operating system, for example.

Net.saints
Always willing to help a newcomer, eager to share their knowledge with those not born with an innate ability to navigate the Net, they are not as rare as you might think. Post a question about something and you'll often be surprised how many responses you get.

The last group brings us back to the Net's oral tradition. With few written guides, people have traditionally learned their way around the Net by asking somebody, whether at the terminal next to them or on the Net itself. That tradition continues: if you have a question, ask.

Today, one of the places you can look for help is in the news.newusers.questions newsgroup, which, as its name suggests, is a place to learn more about Usenet. But be careful what you post. Some of the Usenet wizards there get cranky sometimes when they have to answer the same question over and over again. Oh, they'll eventually answer your question, but not before they tell you should have asked your host system administrator first or looked at the postings in news.announce.newusers.


http://www.eff.org/papers/eegtti/eeg_78.html#SEC79

-- Flame (blather@and.spew), December 12, 2000.


Mercenary Trolls ... They may actually be under hire or...

This reminded me of that chant so oft-repeated on the original Timebomb forum; "Pay no attention to him/her. He/she is just a shill for ____ "! (Fill in the blank with almost any corporate or government entity you can imagine.) At one time or another nearly every Y2k optimist who posted to that forum was accused of being one of those evil and untrustworthy [gasp] "shills". The Rays, the Andys and the "a"s of that forum could always be counted on to vomit-out that accusation whenever they were being bested in an argument. (It was actually quite amusing if you paid attention to the timing.)

The hell of it was, I'm convinced that many on that forum actually *believed* we (the optimists) were being paid to post there. I have a question for you, riversoma. Seeing that you described mercenary trolls as possibly being under hire, would I be incorrect in assuming you were among those who believed there were paid shills posting to TB2K?

-- CD (costavike@hotmail.com), December 12, 2000.


That goes both ways, CD. Some still believe people like Diane, Chuck and Big Dog were paid shills for Ed Yourdon or for others who were selling survival goods.

There were extremists on both sides. I define an extremist as someone who cannot believe someone else could disagree with him/her and yet be sincere. Both sides of a debate usually have their share of extremists.

Y2K was no exception.

-- (both@sides.now), December 12, 2000.



--> If a forum has aged past the point of hope then it is going to die anyway and it is best to move on. And moving on - exchanging ideas, meeting new minds from all over the world is what the net is about.

Neither you or bardou have been members of the last two forums except under YOUR troll alias' so I suggest you two take that advice and move on. You both have proven you are worthless garbage that could'nt contribute anything valuable for the last two years.

CD people like these bimbos have proven they are best ignored or flamed.

-- (Not@be.liever), December 12, 2000.


CD,

I have no idea if anyone was paid to disrupt the TB2K forum or not. But there did appear to be some people who were dedicated to destroying it. I might add that some of these we're "pollies" and some of them were "doomers."

I am not saying that such behavior is bad or good. A mercenary troll who was doing their best to dismantle a hate group forum would still be a mercenary troll in my eyes. Regardless of whether or not I agreed with their point of view.

After about 6 months of posting on Y2k it seemed to me that most of what people called "trolling" was what I would just consider rude behavior - flaming on all sides. Eventually TB2K was taken down by a Mad Dog troll. I do not mourn its passing. It served its purpose.

No doubt any diligent searcher could rattle through the archives and discover that every single regular at TB2K flamed from time to time. However, I think intelligent people learn quickly that this is not really an effective form of communication.

I learned alot about keeping my temper on TBY2k.

Interestingly, when conversations moved out of the forum and into chat alot of the polarization between "pollies" and "doomers" dissapeered. We just became a bunch of people who liked to discuss Y2k more than most folks.

-- riversoma (riversoma@aol.com), December 12, 2000.


Yo mama

-- newbie troll (dinner@is.ready), December 12, 2000.

riversoma, thanks for posting this. I honestly never really knew what a "troll" was because the only "definition" I ever saw was when the cries of "troll" went up on TB2K (I lurked).

"both@sides.now", if I may, I don't think (and I'm just guessing here, admittedly) that most of those "pollies" who cried "shill" to the likes of Diane, Chuck and Big Dog really believed that they were "shills" for anyone. I honestly think it was simply a response to the cries of "shill" that some of the pollies had to constantly endure. Not a terribly mature way of handling things, but think back to that board and the Debunker board in many ways -- was all of that "mature", especially during the last half of the year? And I could be wrong, which is why I added "most". There were a number of real wackos on each side who truly believed this to be so. Nothing on earth would help those people.

"Not@be.liever", calling two women "bimbos" and hiding behind "Not@be.liever" doesn't lend you much credibility. This is not EZB; it is NOT a "closed forum". Unk has stated from the outset (and through the title) that it is open to all. If you don't like what these two women have to say, ignore it. If they've wronged you in some way in some other incarnation, get over it or take it private. No real need to air dirty laundry here. Personally, I've never had a communication with either, and I'm very interested in what they have to say -- on any subject. Might turn out that we disagree about everything, but that doesn't mean I can't learn something from them.

You know, alot of things were said last year that alot of people regret - myself included. But I thought we had pretty much gotten past all that with TB2KUS. If you can't put the past behind you, what do you have to look forward to?

Maybe I'm naive, but at this point in time, and with these types of conversations, I just don't understand this need to "out" someone. If people want to remain anonymous, or post under other handles, so what? If the style is that defined, you're going to know who it is anyway. I'm always trying to guess who someone might be; it's part of the fun -- to me it is, anyway.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), December 12, 2000.


I come from a family of trolls ;)



-- Peg (pegmcleod@mediaone.net), December 12, 2000.



Wow, you're all so cuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuute!!!!!

(Yet another shameless reference to Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, the Claymation Version.)

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), December 12, 2000.


Which one is you, Peg? My money's on the blonde on the far left.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), December 12, 2000.

Pat...wink...wink!!!...sorry folks private joke ;)

Rich,

What can I say...you got my number...[grin]!

-- Peg (pegmcleod@mediaone.net), December 12, 2000.


(Not@be.liever), how have I offended you? Perhaps we can reconcile our differences and become friends. I do not know who you are, or what I have done to you to make you hate me so much.

-- bardou (bardou@baloneyyyy.com), December 12, 2000.

Patricia, your a very wise woman. I have read many of your posts, we are all human beings, and no two people think alike. That's what makes our country so unique. I have learned alot these past 3 years, and the most important thing I have learned, is to listen to the other side instead of rejecting it without the facts.

-- bardou (bardou@baloneyyyy.com), December 12, 2000.


River I have two words for you "Fuck you"

-- Bosco (denden@home.com), December 12, 2000.

Thanks, bardou; that's very kind. That's also one of the most important things *I* learned over the past almost five years. When OTFR started TB2KUS, I was thrilled to discover that I had a lot more in common with people who, just a few short months prior, were considered "enemies".

How ridiculous it all seems now!

I look forward to your thoughts and ideas; you never know where your next Great Idea will come from :-)

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), December 13, 2000.


Dear not@abeliver:

This letter is hereby to serve you notice:

SANTA will NOT be bringing you ANYTHING for Christmas. Due to the fact that you are not a believer, by your own admission, I suggest that you look elsewhere to receive presents. It is Santa's understanding that IF you apologize, he just MAY be able to ask Bardou to send you some extra condoms. This simply can NOT be done without an apology.

You may forward your apology on a new Thread entitled: I am a believer in NEED of condoms.

Your's truly,

Santa's elf.

-- (shh@aol.con), December 13, 2000.


They are dumb but more than that I'm bothered by their belief that they can just show up here and post pretenting they haven't been here all along. They have been trolling the halls of the last two boards and I honestly believe bardou is in cohoots with unk. Unk certainly hasn't denied it has he? Even if I'm wrong about that *which I doubt* the members of this forum will find out what kind of trash you are associating with soon enough.

-- (Not@be.liever), December 13, 2000.

Not,

I had to edit your HTML, sorry but it screwed things up and nobody could answer the thread.

BTW, I am not in cahoots with Bardou, or anyone else. If she has been posting all along under a fake name she's welcome to do that, but I do not spend my time trying to figure out who is who around here.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), December 13, 2000.


Gives "HOMAGE" to Unc.

hee hee, passses the bong to Unc.

Wow, looks like notabeliever wont be gettin nuthin for christmas?

Heh?

-- sumer (shh@aol.con), December 13, 2000.


Thanks for fixing that. I forget to close some tags sometimes.

Now that you have officially denied it I believe you Unk. That does not diminish the fact that those women are trash though.



-- (Not@be.liever), December 13, 2000.


just sometimes, eh? ;)

-- sumer (shh@aol.con), December 13, 2000.

"Bardou spent most of her time discussing her stock of condoms. She even had a webpage dedicated to them!"

LOL, you must have me mixed up with some one else. Condoms weren't one of my items I had in my Y2K stash. And, I would like to know where this web page is that I was suppose to have. I do well to log on to the internet, that how computer savvy I am.

BTW, you haven't answered my question: What have I done to you to make you hate me so much.

-- bardou (bardou@balonneyy.com), December 13, 2000.


P.S. to - (Not@be.liever): I have just as much right to post here as you do. At least I signed my real name, what about you?

-- bardou (bardou@baloneyyyy.com), December 13, 2000.

(Not@be.liever): Well! I'm sure Unk is just pleased as punch that you "believe" him, 'cause he'd probably lose sleep over THAT one.

So now *I'm* a "bimbo", too? LOL! It is quite clear that you DON'T know me. Which only makes me wonder if you have any idea what you're talking about.....

But how nice that you sit there "on high" and judge people from the anonymity of your pseudonym; from behind the perceived safety of a keyboard, a monitor and a connection. How incredibly brave of you to attack now THREE women, never letting on who you are, what your problem is, or what the reasoning (if there can be any) behind your viciousness might be.

Do keep it to yourself. As I said before, if you don't like what someone has to say, then don't read it. At least with us, we use one handle each, so it should be easy for you to ignore our "dysfunction". And take comfort in knowing the world will never hinge on whatever it is you might have to say, so no pressure there, eh?

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), December 13, 2000.


FWIW, I don't recall Bardou ever mentioning her stockpiling condoms. I, on the otherhand, thought them to be ideal barter items. And let's face it, one can never have too many condoms socked away. Chalk it up to wishful thinking.

If Patricia's a bimbo, then I'm Anne Frank (as in Diary of...). Besides, there's a height requirement for attaining bimbo status. (Don't hurt me.)

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), December 13, 2000.


Patricia-

Well said!~

Rich-

Do tell, what is the height requirement for a bimbo??? And do I qualify?

-- Aunt Bee (Aunt__Bee@hotmail.com), December 13, 2000.


Er, uh, I don't recall the exact number, Bee. (Un)fortunately I've packed away my copy of the Bimbo Desk Reference: Specifications, Vol. I. You might check your local library. (Whew!)

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), December 13, 2000.

"...a height requirement..."?!?!?!

I wish I could stop laughing long enough to write something of substance here......."thank you" will have to suffice for now.....lololol.......

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), December 13, 2000.


It's not easy seeing green.

-- helen (b@c.k), December 13, 2000.

Rofl...IF it IS in fact, a height requirement to be a Bimbo.

Ah hem, (coughs up furball, thanks EVE;) well then guez I'm not a bimbo cus surely someone only 5'2 could NEVER make the height requirement, shhheesshhh, I CANT wait til cap gets the new barstools in, at least I wont have to use a step ladder :-)

-- sumer (shh@aol.con), December 14, 2000.


Is pink easier on those pretty blue eyes of yours Helen? Now down to business. bardou => You shashayed right past my point. (And a one...and a two...you think you're good at sidestepping the issue,don't you?) You have been trolling the last two boards and I will haunt you until you admit it. (BTW, you will notice I haven't stopped you from posting,,,but I could....at least for a little while.) Patricia => As I said before, if you don't like what someone has to say, then don't read it. You are a hypocrite of astronomical proportions. I just read your posts in the other forum giving cpr hell for voicing his opinions. Clearly, you read posts you don't like from other people and comment on them. You did the same thing in this thread *didn't you*? You are on the verge of making me want to vomit too. I do wish to apologize for calling you a bimbo in the classic sense of the word. The other two are bimbos in the classic sense while you are merely debasing yourself. It sickens me to witness a woman who could achieve some measure of status in life waste her time posting on a bulletin board with people of dubious character. You have complained that you don't have alot of money *that you're not even comfortable*, yet you continue posting day-after-day-after-day about inane subjects that don't allow you to make any progress in your life. I find it *amazing* that you think you will find anything beneficial to your life from the posts I read you posting in. Enough of this,,,your life is your life,,,you can live it any way you want. Just don't be shocked when you stick your two cents in where it doesn't belong (hypocrite) and somebody like me points out your shortcomings. To continue => "At least with us, we use one handle each, so it should be easy for you to ignore our "dysfunction"." They post with more than one handle. "And take comfort in knowing the world will never hinge on whatever it is you might have to say, so no pressure there, eh?" I'm sure that's true.



-- (Not@be.liever), December 14, 2000.


Let me reformat that so it's a little easier on your poor sore eyes of yours, Helen....

Is pink easier on those pretty blue eyes of yours Helen?

Now down to business.

bardou => You shashayed right past my point. (And a one...and a two...you think you're good at sidestepping the issue,don't you?) You have been trolling the last two boards and I will haunt you until you admit it. (BTW, you will notice I haven't stopped you from posting,,,but I could....at least for a little while.)

Patricia => As I said before, if you don't like what someone has to say, then don't read it.

You are a hypocrite of astronomical proportions. I just read your posts in the other forum giving cpr hell for voicing his opinions. Clearly, you read posts you don't like from other people and comment on them. You did the same thing in this thread *didn't you*? You are on the verge of making me want to vomit too.

I do wish to apologize for calling you a bimbo in the classic sense of the word. The other two are bimbos in the classic sense while you are merely debasing yourself. It sickens me to witness a woman who could achieve some measure of status in life waste her time posting on a bulletin board with people of dubious character. You have complained that you don't have alot of money *that you're not even comfortable*, yet you continue posting day-after-day-after-day about inane subjects that don't allow you to make any progress in your life. I find it *amazing* that you think you will find anything beneficial to your life from the posts I read you posting in. Enough of this,,,your life is your life,,,you can live it any way you want. Just don't be shocked when you stick your two cents in where it doesn't belong (hypocrite) and somebody like me points out your shortcomings.

To continue =>

"At least with us, we use one handle each, so it should be easy for you to ignore our "dysfunction"."

They post with more than one handle.

"And take comfort in knowing the world will never hinge on whatever it is you might have to say, so no pressure there, eh?"

I'm sure that's true.



-- (Not@be.liever), December 14, 2000.
Just don't be shocked when you stick your two cents in where it doesn't belong (hypocrite) and somebody like me points out your shortcomings.

Oooh, I'm green with envy. Patricia has a faerie godperson! (In a John Cleese voice:) Aren't you lucky!

Are the monthly payments affordable? Did you have to sign a contract?

It was my pointing out the height requirement for achieving bimbo status which relieved you of the label, Patricia. Don't EVER forget it.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), December 14, 2000.


An example of something you didn't like said, but *responded to it anyway*.

"Charlie, is there a "law degree" at the end of YOUR name, too? By your "standards", all *I'm* allowed to discuss is IT consulting and telecom and project management and the like. Yet, oddly enough, I somehow (only God knows how I manage to do this) am able to discuss a variety of subjects quite intelligently -- and without the use of ALL CAPS or BIG FONTS.

Go figure.

Tell you what -- when you hold all the world's knowledge, THEN you can anyone else what they can and cannot discuss.

I'm guessing here, but I doubt that's going to happen in my lifetime."

My argument isn't with you Patricia (but if you want to make it that way we can). My argument is with the bimbos so stay out of this.

-- (
Not@be.liever), December 14, 2000.


off?

Now, to the subject at hand -- if I can figure out what that might be. What the hell was THAT all about?

You said, You are a hypocrite of astronomical proportions. I just read your posts in the other forum giving cpr hell for voicing his opinions.

As you've seen fit to re-post over here what I wrote over there (thank you; saves me the trouble), perhaps you should try READING it. CPR stated (as if it were FACT) that unless one has a **degree** in something (or at least two years of classes in same), one has no business discussing it. I explained that I somehow managed to discuss a variety of subjects intelligently, despite not having a degree (or two years of classes) in those subjects.

Now, how do you suppose that equates to your statement that I gave CPR "hell" for "voicing his opinions"?

You then go on: Clearly, you read posts you don't like from other people and comment on them. You did the same thing in this thread *didn't you*? You are on the verge of making me want to vomit too.

Please use the toilet.

EVERYONE reads posts from people they don't like. The difference between this and what you are doing is quite clear (though apparently, not to you). You have chosen unsubstantiated personal attacks as your method of "disagreement", whereas the majority of the rest of us use actual facts and not personal attacks.

I do wish to apologize for calling you a bimbo in the classic sense of the word. The other two are bimbos in the classic sense while you are merely debasing yourself.

Ah, an "apology" tempered with another attack. How classic.

It sickens me to witness a woman who could achieve some measure of status in life waste her time posting on a bulletin board with people of dubious character. You have complained that you don't have alot of money *that you're not even comfortable*, yet you continue posting day-after-day-after-day about inane subjects that don't allow you to make any progress in your life. I find it *amazing* that you think you will find anything beneficial to your life from the posts I read you posting in. Enough of this,,,your life is your life,,,you can live it any way you want. Just don't be shocked when you stick your two cents in where it doesn't belong (hypocrite) and somebody like me points out your shortcomings.

I don't even know who the hell you ARE, so why should I care one way or the other what your opinion of me is? You pretty much covered everything that needs to be said with this one simple phrase:

,,,your life is your life,,,you can live it any way you want

How truly generous of you to allow me the priviledge of living my life the way I see fit. I simply cannot thank you enough, Oh Wise One. How will I ever be able to repay the incredible kindness and generosity and (dare I say?) humanity you have deigned to display towards me.

Now, will there be anything else, or have I covered all of the bases?

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), December 14, 2000.


bardou,

My sister Bimbo! I am so like stoked that we get to be bimbos together. I hardly know what to say! I guess the word is - "kewl!" ;-)

Anyway, like I'm just a Bimbo but I thought um condoms were a good thing seeing as they um prevent like abortion, unwanted babies, paternity suits, STDs and stuff.:-(

But hey, like I'm just a Bimbo so I um don't need to use my brain or condoms anymore I guess. (giggle) Like how freeing!;-)

Patricia, my Bimbo sis. Don't like worry about the height requirement ok? Thats what heels are for! tee hee ;-)

Like anyone else that wants to be a Bimbo with me and bardou and Patricia ya gotta like clear it with Not@believer first ok? Cuz he's like the one who knows all about Bimbos!!!!!!!!!! kewl!

-- Bimbosoma (riversoma@aol.com), December 14, 2000.


Faerie godperson AKA non.believer,

You may float in here cloaked in anonymity and nail people. I wield no power to stop you, though my impulse is to grab you by the scruff of the neck and run you face first into a strong stand of sticker bushes. The extent of my ability to act here is to announce my displeasure. Consider it done.

Cowardice is unbecoming and your tactics and methods are cowardice defined. Why act dishonorably? Or do you not value honor and integrity? Believe it or not I ask this with all sincerity, for each of us when given enough time reveals our lesser selves. You are not alone in your abrasive attempts at communication.

Fortunately the folks here are forgiving, which is why I address you in this manner. Your methodology leaves much to be desired. A course correction is in order. One can disagree and yet not come off as disagreeable. It is the Arthur Murray dance of civility. It would do you well to get yourself a few lessons.

I question your motives, as personal conflicts are best addressed privately. You spray verbal bullets from under cover of darkness forcing people to scurry for cover lest they be targeted. Rethink your tactics and your presentation of yourself and your ideas. This would be most beneficial for you - if you indeed value civility - and the forum at large.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), December 14, 2000.


bardou => You shashayed right past my point. (And a one...and a two...you think you're good at sidestepping the issue,don't you?) You have been trolling the last two boards and I will haunt you until you admit it.

If Bardou has been doing what you claim, then please give us the full report. Are you claiming, for example, that she was "Big Text Man" on OTFR's board?

And while you're at, "Not@be.liever", give us a description of your own mission here.

-- Wundrin (about@some.things), December 14, 2000.


faerie godperson,

To attempt to use the tragedy of others as a weapon is to embrace the blackness within your own heart. Fortunately your gun is loaded with blank cartridges. Equally as fortunate am I who's self-esteem does not balance precariously on the misinformed opinions of others. I would not face up to cowards such as yourself if it were.

I await your response to the issues I addressed above.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), December 14, 2000.


Opps! Sorry. I thought this was the ladies' room.

-- (leaving@quickly.now), December 14, 2000.

So, you seem to have quite a "handle" on my life-to-come. Do you happen to have access to future lottery numbers? LOL!!

You state that I missed your point. I'll grant that as it wouldn't be the first time. So what WAS your point? Damned if I can see one, but I'm more than willing to give an anonymous coward (<--- slight personal attack) the benefit of the doubt.

Oh yes, one more question: Would this be considered one of those discussions on which I waste my time?

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), December 14, 2000.


Wunderin => hawk is big text guy, manny and a whole host of personalities.

Rich => I have no blackness in my heart because I only speak the truth. Everyone who knows you knows that you are a married man who fell in love with our precious Oxy => even though you are bi-sexual =>bordering on gay.....and became engaged to her. You're not trying to deny this *are you*?

-- (Not@be.liever), December 14, 2000.


bardou => You shashayed right past my point. (And a one...and a two...you think you're good at sidestepping the issue,don't you?) You have been trolling the last two boards and I will haunt you until you admit it.

If Bardou has been doing what you claim, then please give us the full report. Please, be specific.

And while you're at, "Not@be.liever", give us a more thorough description of your own mission here.

-- Wundrin (about@some.things), December 14, 2000.


Is Hawk also LL? If not, is LL "Cindy" over at Downstreamer's Petro board?

-- (Im@wundering.too), December 14, 2000.

(Not@be.liever),

You said, "I have no blackness in my heart because I only speak the truth."

In other words, it's just fine to violate someone's privacy and spread their private lives all over the net or the town, as long as it's the truth? Or seems like it might possibly be the truth? Or that they can't prove it's NOT the truth, anyway...

Hmmm...seems a lot like blackness to me.

Why do you attack these people? What have they done to you? Even if some have posted under aliases in the past (which, unless I've missed something, definitely remains to be seen), how would that deserve the abuse you've heaped on them? In fact, why would that deserve any abuse at all? As far as I've seen, they're good, decent people who haven't intentionally harmed anyone. Why not just leave them alone? What are you getting out of gratuitously hurting people? Do you enjoy bringing pain to others? Do you do these same things to people in your hometown? Is this how you get your kicks?

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), December 14, 2000.


eve => Unlike you, some people value the truth. It might be interesting to hear what Oxy would have to say if she could use the computer *wouldn't it*? Besides, he and Patricia started this shit by putting their two cents in here. Little girl, you just go on about your business wasting your life like Patricia does. OK?

I'm => No, Hawk is not LL.

"If not, is LL "Cindy" over at Downstreamer's Petro board?"

Hell, I don't know! I have never gone to that board. Give me a direct link and I will check it out. (But I don't have a Oeja board so don't expect me to know everything.)

-- (Not@be.liever), December 14, 2000.


http://pub38.ezboard.com/fdownstreamventurespetroleummarkets

-- (Ithink@thats.it), December 14, 2000.

faerie godperson,

Please, reveal no more intimate details of my life! I beg your mercy great seer! Your accuracy is astonishing! Why just the other day I remarked to a co-worker that no one knows the real me. I stand corrected. My life is an open book and you hold it in your hands, reading aloud for all to hear every secret which I hold dear. ROTFL!

Curious about one thing - when was it you were chosen to speak for everyone who knows me? Why was I not informed this decision had been reached?

Are you going to turn on email notification like you did last time, so my inbox becomes inundated? Oh, woe is me.

Your lame attempts at cutting people down is to make yourself appear taller, oh self-procalimed speaker of truth. Don't be sad. Reaction to failure is the true measure of a faerie godperson. You can change your ways if you wish to. Help is but a phone call away.

"911 operator? This is faerie godperson. I have fallen and I can't get up! I am caught in the quagmire that is my broken heart! Please send help at once!"

;)

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), December 14, 2000.


Oh! This is better than the daytime soaps!

Not@be.liever, where are you getting your information on Oxy and Rich? Or Riversoma or Bardou, for that matter.

Are you the same person that was dishing info on the sordid details of al-d a few months ago?

Enquiring minds want to know! :-)

-- MorePlease (moreinfo@please.net), December 14, 2000.


Ithink => I can't tell if that is LL or not. But,,,, from the little that I read *she's sharp*.

Rich => Sorry to broadcast such personal information buddy,,,,but you started in where you didn't have any business going.

More => This place is a living soap opera! A virtual Payton Place! (So,,,,have I made my point that they are making *fools* out of themselves? Their lives are here for our entertainment!)

-- (Not@be.liever), December 14, 2000.


Dear fearie godperson,

You have yet to broadcast any accurate information with regards to my personal life. But do keep trying. Continue to focus on me. I crave the attention. My life is so barren!

Would you look at that. I just received an email from Arthur and Deidre Putey (Python reference). Seems they want to schedule a threesome for next Saturday. How quickly word travels on this information superhighway. Oh thank you faerie godperson! Thank you!

;)

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), December 14, 2000.


Thanks for your opinion, Notabeliever, back to lurking now.

-- (not@partof.thiswar), December 14, 2000.

Yep, this is almost as good as the time when Paul Milne's brother showed up at comp.software.year-2000 and started dishing dirt on good old Paul!

Anybody here remember that? Ah sweet memories!

I just hope that Rich *really* didn't do to Oxy what you are claiming he did.

Say it isn't so, Rich!

-- MorePlease (moreinfo@please.net), December 14, 2000.


Nice touch, faerie godperson. Multiple pseudonyms for your multiple personalities. Play one off the other in an attempt to gather some measure of consensus. Seems only right. Why play favorites? Careful not to create an argument with yourself. People might begin to stare.

Whatever will you do next, faerie godperson? I'm on the edge of my seat!

;)

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), December 14, 2000.


"(Not@be.liever)" has given us a textbook-perfect example of what a troll is. She's a living case of what riversoma was talking about!

-- (Sociology@101.wow), December 14, 2000.

I have only posted as "Not@be.liever. If you have a problem understanding that,,,,it's your problem. The other people in this thread know they're real.

More => I sorta remember reading about that! What Rich fails to understand is that the truth comes out some time. Whether it's from a brother or a lurker. Rich can lie out of the side of his mouth,,,but the people who know him know what I say is true. Everyone he knows,,,, now knows he's a liar. (But what would you expect from a married fag who would dump a nice woman after she got hurt? He obviously lacks character. Otherwise, he wouldn't have started playing that game with men and women both *would he*?)

-- (Not@be.liever), December 14, 2000.


River you look foolish hiding behind the name "sociology". Are you ready to admit it yet?

-- (Not@be.liever), December 14, 2000.

curiouser and curiouser.

First an unknown anonymous poster accuses me of not being me. Then same accuses me of being a bimbo. Then the Riversoma that he doesn't really believe is Riversoma is accused of posting under other names on other boards. I'm getting pretty confused here. Luckily I know who I am and where I've been because if I was leaving it up to this guy to figure out I would be quite lost.

Just for the record for those sane posters that are curious. My on screen name is Riversoma. Thats it wherever you go. Although I may change it in the future just to get away from this kind of strange behavior. Any perceptive person will be able to recognize my writing style anyway.

I have stayed away from all forums over the last 12 months because they seem to attract wierd behavior like this. Besides, I've been kinda busy with the new beau and buying a house and stuff. I have been hanging out over at fuckedcompany.com the last couple of days. ALL the posters there are anonymous so these kinds of bizarre personal vendettas don't occur.

Peace on earth - good will to all.

-- riversoma (riversoma@aol.com), December 14, 2000.


Rich,

Not@be.liever and I are two separate people. Whether your believe that or not is up to you.

But the much more IMPORTANT thing is that Not@be.liever has made a SPECIFIC and SERIOUS accusation against you. Your cavalier attitude in NOT answering his/her accusation makes me believe you really DID do what he/she claims.

So sad...

-- MorePlease (moreinfo@please.net), December 14, 2000.


River, have you ever heard lying will make your nose grow? Your proboscus (and Rich's) must be hanging down to your knees by now. But what the hell,,,, I think I've proven my point by now. Go ahead an post under the name Riversoma so we call all watch the circus that goes on in your head. I won't bother blacking you out because you'll do your own damage.

-- (Not@be.liever), December 14, 2000.

Of course, Not@be.liever is simply adding value to the original topic of this thread, by demonstrating troll behavior -- and doing it very effectively, too.

He (I presume it is a he) has not only hooked at least three people on his line, but has kept them hooked long enough to extend this thread far past normal expectations. Not bad results for a bit of garden-variety trash talking!

For many trolls, their delight in fishing for replies consists in the feeling of power it gives them. They like to push people's buttons - over and over and over again. So far as I can see, Not is engaging in pure button-pushing for its own sake. It makes him feel like he is better than the people he is manipulating. But he isn't.

Not has just as many buttons as anone else. If he ever engages in a topic about which he has genuine feelings (as opposed to these simulated feelings he is treating us to) he is just as vulnerable to manipulation as the rest of us. So, Not, what's the point?

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), December 14, 2000.


Dear faerie godperson,

Shouldering such a heavy burden as you most assuredly do - town crier of all things true - must entail quite a personal sacrifice. Would you share with us your secret for maintaining sanity under duress? Oh, sorry. Your cupboard lays bare. How silly of me. Please forgive me my transgression. An "honest" mistake!

;)

Would you look at the clock! In the immortal words of Fred Rogers:

"It's a beautiful day in this neighborhood.

A beautiful day in this beauty wood.

Would you be mine, could you be mine?

Won't you be, won't you be?

Please won't you be my neighbor?

Bye neighbor!"

;)

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), December 14, 2000.


Brian, "troll" is a stupid word. One man's troll is another man's truth. Haven't you learned that yet? I didn't ask (or want) those other people to chime in here. I said a long time ago my argument is with Riversoma and bardou.

Wouldn't your participation in this thread constitute trollishness? Why is what you say any less trollish that what I say?

-- (Not@be.liever), December 14, 2000.


Look folks, I'm tired of this discussion today. My fingers are getting tired of typing and you can believe what I said or not,,,,the choice is yours.

BTW Rich, I am not the one who sent you e-mails. If someone did that you have a problem with a couple of people (not surprisingly). I haven't had a problem with you personally,,,,I just don't like what you did to Oxy.

-- (Not@be.liever), December 14, 2000.


>> Brian, "troll" is a stupid word. One man's troll is another man's truth. Haven't you learned that yet? <<

Yum. Yum. Bait! .... Hey! Wait.... [spits it out]... There's a hook in there! [swims away]

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), December 14, 2000.


Ah, I see it's now time for the great Brian McLaughlin to now chime in with his "big brain" wisdom. It was only a matter of time...

-- mega troll (kiss.my@ass.com), December 14, 2000.

Brian,

Good points. People like that are just after a cheap rush of "self- esteem". Real self-esteem proving elusive, they go after bashing others so that they appear "better" to themselves; even though it's very temporary, so that they need another "fix" not long after.

Further, they crave the attention -- negative or positive -- and in this sense "not" has admittedly been very successful here, so far.

I have little doubt that after we all start ignoring him/her, he/she will soon pop up somewhere else, harassing the same people -- or, if they're not available -- others (who knows -- maybe even you and me as well, now) on other trumped-up "premises".

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), December 14, 2000.


And now the troops rally to their fallen comrades...

-- mega troll (kiss.my@ass.com), December 14, 2000.

ROTFLMAO!!! Brian, you just couldn't let a few of us have all the fun. Take over, man.

See y'all over at the Bi-sexuals 'R' Us interactive chat? ;)

I'm outta here...

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), December 14, 2000.


Yeah Brian, take over. Rich is not doing to good here right now and he sure could use your help.

Brian?

Brian!?

Brian!?

-- mega troll (kiss.my@ass.com), December 14, 2000.


>> Brian? <<

Lassie! Come home! Timmy fell in the old well, broke his leg, was knocked unconcious and ... and... we have doggie treats for you!

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), December 14, 2000.


"If Bardou has been doing what you claim, then please give us the full report. Are you claiming, for example, that she was "Big Text Man" on OTFR's board?"

And while you're at, "Not@be.liever", give us a description of your own mission here.

-- Wundrin (about@some.things), December 14, 2000.

Please prove it "Not@be.liever." You still have not answered my question to you: "What have I done to you, to make you hate me so much." In all the times I have ever posted at TB2000, I don't recall ever receiving such hateful remarks like I have from you. If I have said something to you that you feel was degrading to you, please let me know. I would like to make things right. Bardou

-- bardou (bardou@baloneyyyyy.com), December 14, 2000.


Fix text? test
test
test


-- k. (k@a.n), December 14, 2000.

ooooh look at all the pretty colors

-- cin (cin@cin.cin), December 14, 2000.

kriter => You wouldn't be trying to fix something that isn't broke *would you*?

Brian => You have lost all credibility.

bardou => You have never had any.

Rich => Before you go,,,,,at least acknowledge that what I say is true.

-- (Not@be.liever), December 14, 2000.




-- test (test@test.test), December 14, 2000.

Holy Guacamoli..that just made it worse!

Okay..this should be interesting.

Eh..this thread is so screwed up html wise what's the difference anymore?



-- retest (test@test.test), December 14, 2000.


kriter => You wouldn't be trying to fix something that isn't broke *would you*?

Brian => You have lost all credibility.

bardou => You have never had any.

Rich => Before you go,,,,,at least acknowledge that what I say is true.

-- (Not@be.liever), December 14, 2000.

- (Not@be.liever): And where is your credibility? You still have not answered my quesion. Are you afraid? Why are you hiding? Are you a coward? Show us your legitmacy. Bardou

-- bardou (bardou@baloneyyy.com), December 14, 2000.


Hey Not@

Don't forget this one.

-- (do_us_@ll.a_favor), December 15, 2000.


Okay that's it!

Listen you MENTAL BITCH

FYI Oxy and Rich were broken up long before she was hurt. My source? Oxy herself. So much for your theory. As I'm sure the rest of your theories are just what they are...figments of your fu**ed up imagination.

So go get a life and some prozac

-- cin (cin@cin.cin), December 16, 2000.


It looks like it is YOU, Cin, who is in need of some Prozac.

Dumb cunt.

-- guess who (kiss.my@ass.com), December 16, 2000.


My my my cin! It's interesting you should say that AFTER your last post. Why didn't you say that earlier? Why didn't Rich deny it?

=> (Keep up the good work posting anonymously bardou.)

-- (Not@be.lievr), December 17, 2000.


Look,,,like I said before...My argument isn't with Rich. I sincerely hope that he didn't dump her after the accident but I don't know why he hasn't ever denied it *Kategorically*. If my information was wrong Rich, I apologize.

bardou => Cutting and pasting becomes you. When you don't talk you look smarter. The name ~~~~~~~~@~~~.~~~~~~~ becomes you also. Shall I list the other ones? You have been harrassing people in these bulletin boards for the last year and soon they're going to know it as well as I do.

-- (Not@be.liever), December 17, 2000.


bardou => Cutting and pasting becomes you. When you don't talk you look smarter. The name ~~~~~~~~@~~~.~~~~~~~ becomes you also. Shall I list the other ones? You have been harrassing people in these bulletin boards for the last year and soon they're going to know it as well as I do.

-- (Not@be.liever), December 17, 2000.

Soon they're going to know it? There's no time like the present. Go ahead and let us know now who you claim she's been harrassing. Point us to the threads on which this alleged harrassment has taken place. Please....be specific.

-- (spe@k.now), December 17, 2000.




-- (Clean@up.crew), December 17, 2000.

"Look,,,like I said before...My argument isn't with Rich. I sincerely hope that he didn't dump her after the accident but I don't know why he hasn't ever denied it *Kategorically*. If my information was wrong Rich, I apologize."

What business is this of yours anyway -- (Not@be.liever) AKA Ladyillogic?

-- buttout (buttout@buttout.cock), December 17, 2000.


http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002SJg

De Bunker is going down

Old git uses ladylogic as an example of us, yet if you read debunkers, you will see that we did not want her there any more than you wanted her here. She sure didn't do us any favors by her posts at debunkers, we had planned on closing it down due to lack of the need for it, but when she spammed the pages with her crap we first asked her to stop, which she did not, and tried to get the females pissed at her-but we chose not to play her game. As she continued to harass anyone who tried to get her to stop as well as her percieved enemies, we decided to close the board down yesterday.

Yes the regulars comunicated and decided it was the best thing to do as she had done enough damage already and we could expect nothing more than more of the same.

-- Trolling attempts (of@the.past), December 18, 2000.


"It looks like it is YOU, Cin, who is in need of some Prozac.

Dumb cunt.

-- guess who (kiss.my@ass.com), December 16, 2000."

Who needs to guess, it's you LL, "cunt" is you favorite word.

-- marloe (marloe@notsodumb.con), December 18, 2000.


I believe what you had to say was well said

-- Trag/*LUVS_FRAVIA*/@HORNY.com (see@below.com), May 09, 2002.

/*LUVS_FRAVIA*/=TTY

-- Trag/*LUVS_FRAVIA*/@HORNY.com (see@below.com), May 09, 2002.

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