I recently purchased Kent Hovind's series of seven tapes on Creation Science. They are AMAZING. An incredible witnessing tool. He asks that people dupe them and spread this message around to cut through all of the nastiness that evolution based schooling has caused. Of course, if you could afford to purchase the tapes and support this ministry that way, it would be preferred. There is a website called drdino.com to look at the stuff and get an idea of it.

What I would like to offer to you, both Christians and non Christians alike, is that if you are interested in these tapes, if you would send me some video tapes and some money for postage only, I would like to duplicate them and help to get this message out there. By the way, I guess the man has four sites completely devoted to attacking him!

I have been so impressed with this series that I just thought I would like to share them with you. You can email me with any questions and for address info. God Bless!

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 05, 2000

Answers

I checked out the site and it looks very interesting. Thanks for sharing Doreen. - Kathy

-- Kathy (jubilant@ncweb.com), December 05, 2000.

Hi Doreen,

I'd like to take you up on that offer.Please email me with whatever I'll need to know.

Thanks!!!!

In His Love,~~Tracy~~

-- Tracy Jo Neff (tntneff@ifriendly.com), December 05, 2000.

Doreen, this is a wonderful thing you are doing! God will surely bless you!

-- bwilliams (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), December 05, 2000.

Doreen, no offense, but "nastiness that evolution based schooling"??

Pretty interesting that "He asks that people dupe them..." Ironic, as the people who buy into this closed mindedness are the "dupes"!

JOJ

By the way, "creation science" is an oxymoron.No offense again.

-- jumpoffjoe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), December 05, 2000.

Doreen, You are right these tapes are excellent. Kent Hovind was a science teacher for 15 yrs.& has so many things to say about the correlation of science & the Bible. JOJ, I would encourage you to watch these if you don't feel the two have anything in common, you have nothing to lose by doing so. But I realize if you don't believe in God it won't be too tempting. Kent Hovind will be in our area tomorrow & we get to have him at our house for lunch, I'm really looking forward to it.

-- Lenore (archambo@winco.net), December 05, 2000.

Hi Doreen!Me again.

I just wanted to say "May the Lord bless you abundantly for sharing in this way!"

I hope you aren't discouraged at one of the previous comments.

I'm sure half the people on the forum know that I was once quite a radical evolutionist and atheist with a twist of Greenpeace thrown in. There is hope for the hardest of hearts-I surely was one of 'em. Such a long story...won't tell it now.

I wonder if you heard the Science,Scripture,and Salvation program this week.If not,you could check it out at www.icr.org(assuming you wanted to,of course).It was about former atheists that are now creationist Christians.Too cool!(pardon the slang...)

God Bless and Keep You,~~~Tracy~~~

-- Tracy Jo Neff (tntneff@ifriendly.com), December 06, 2000.

Lenore, of course I believe in god. Just not necessarily the same god you do. Nor do I limit myself to one god. I certainly don't believe that all the animal and plant species on our beautiful planet are unrelated to each other. For instance, I believe that cougars and tigers are related to each other. That's evolution. To deny that which is in front of your very nose is hard for me to fathom.

Tracy Jo, I hope you're not implying that I am one of the "hardest of hearts" you're referring to. I think you can ask most anybody on this forum or elsewhere. I'm loaded with empathy. On the other hand, if your definition of "hard hearted" is "open minded", or "realistic", I plead guilty.

JOJ

-- jumpoffjoe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), December 06, 2000.

JOJ, Kent Hovind does talk about the relation of animals, cougars to tigers, wolves to dogs, etc. It's so interesting, & at the risk of offending you, (I don't mean to) but I would like to say again that you have nothing to lose by watching these tapes, they have so much information & of course you could "take it or leave it." Doreen I'd like to help you out with your offer, but right now I have a list of people waiting for copies, perhaps later.

-- Lenore (archambo@winco.net), December 06, 2000.

Hi Joe,

Not trying to argue.By hard hearted,I am not speaking of a lack of compassion,etc.I'm speaking from a biblical viewpoint,which I'm sure you can understand.Please let's not all argue(not you personally,but I know how many of us are drawn to these posts,and often indeed we end up quite riled,myself included.)I just don't want to ruin Doreen's sweet offer by turning this post into contention and debate.Much more that I could say if this were a different sort of post,but it's not. It's a sweet post from one concerned about the eternal souls of others.Perhaps many here take offense at that-indeed the preaching of the cross to them that perish is foolishness...and offensive.That is from God's word,the Bible.If any one out there has a mind open enough to,then I most humbly suggest you check out this information.[I'm afeared I have put my foot in my mouth again.I don't necessarily mean you,Joe.I'm just trying to encourage others to look at this "stuff".] Sorry again for the misunderstanding Joe.I'm not a name caller,and I don't have any animosity in my heart towards you.

Sorry Doreen,Bless You,~~Tracy~~

-- Tracy Jo Neff (tntneff@ifriendly.com), December 06, 2000.

Hey all,

I am not offended by you, Joe. I know that there are A TON of people who believe in evolution. Heck, I was one! But here's the thing, this man's explanations of the geological formations and the physical laws of science made more sense than all of the THEORIES I studied and went "oh wow" about back when I was in school. They were teaching us evolution, which makes man an animal and everything just a bizarre twist of nature. They did state that evolution was a theory, but they never taught the creation theory. I am not threatend by a loving, all knowing, righteous God...one God, all others being gods. I remember when I was REALLY young and the marvel and surety that I had from knowing that God loved me, then I had it theorized out of me, although I never could get any professor or teacher to tell me where the gases and the dirt came from to explode in the Big Bang.

Anyway, science and Christianity are not mutually exclusive. I would like to reitterate that the offer is for unbelievers as well. I just think this stuff is so powerful it can knock the blinders off, and that's the goal. Thanks for the offer of help, Lenore. I am really hoping that people will get these and pass them on to both saved and lost people.

We can't possibly debate this here. It would take forever and I know it would get horrifically contentious. I put the title in absolutely impossible to misunderstand terms so that no one who was completely opposed to considering it would say it was propaganda. I never thought it would go off without some discussion either, and Joe, I would really like to send you a set of these tapes!

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 06, 2000.

Doreen, if you could let me know how much shipping and the cost of the blank tapes would be, I would like to get a set. They might be something that would be suitable for use at our church and Christian school. Thanks!

-- Kathleen Sanderson in NH (stonycft@worldpath.net), December 06, 2000.

OK, Doreen, I said that scientific creationism is an oxymoron; you implied that I am "lost". I'll try to get over it :)

A good friend of mine became a Jehovah's Witness, many years ago. She asked if I would read the JW's publication which explained their stand on evolution v. creationism.

Since I liked this woman, I read the publication, though I was skeptical. To tell you the truth, I found the info to be extremely persuasive. I was shocked. But, since I'm a scientist, I decided to do more research on the subject. I read a couple of books on the controversy written by scientists. One of them was an "evolutionary biologist" or something like that; sorry I can't remember either her profession nor the title of the book, as it's been well over ten years since I read it.

Anyway, to make a long story longer, I found the latter books overwhelmingly persuasive, and was glad I read not only the creation book, but the others as well. The evolutionists' books debunked all the persuasive arguments in the creationists' book.

A few months later, I met another JW. She came by the house. We had a few very nice conversations. Usually I end up telling the JW's not to darken my door again, because they are so dogmatic, and want to preach, rather than discuss things. This woman was different.

Then one day, she requested that I read the JW publication about scientific creationism--the same one I read before. I told her I'd already read it, and if she wanted to discuss the subject that I would appreciate it if she'd read one of the two books I'd read supporting evolution. She told me she'd like to, but was PROHIBITED from doing so by the JW''s. I regretfully told her that, in that case, we had nothing to discuss.

The point of this, Doreen, is that I would be glad to review these tapes, if you want to send them to me, but only on the condition that you be willing to discuss them with me afterwards. I don't want to spend my time on them unless I know that it's not just someone's dogma.

I'm at 1200 Jumpoff Joe Creek Road, Grants Pass, Oregon 97526

Peace.

JOJ

-- jumpoffjoe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), December 06, 2000.

It's the THEORY of Evolution. So it's one way of looking at things. It's not a belief system. It's just one way that science is organized to examine and test constructs.

Some people might also aruge that it's the THEORY of God, too, since the existence of Him cannot be proven.

I am a Christian, and have studied Geology, Biology, Chemistry, and Physics and see no big conflict with both believing in God and thinking evolutionary theory to be pretty plausible. I certainly don't think that they are by any means mutually exclusive. And I can't prove either one, by the way. But they both seem pretty obvious to me.

The sequence with how things were created seems to work pretty well with both, so I think God probably designed it to be that way ;)

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), December 06, 2000.

Sheepish, it would be great if you would check out these tapes, too.

JOJ, I will discuss it with you after you view them. I am no scientist. I like physics and have taken extensive biology but nothing beyond sophmore college, so don't expect me to be able to pull out every single law of the physical world at the drop of a hat, ok?

As for you being lost, I am sure you can read a map...but you're missing the biggest one way sign in the universe because you're going in the wrong direction. I hope that you will watch these with an open heart, maybe the spirit will change your direction. It changed mine.

I am not going to throw dogma at you and I will read what you suggest, but I have a knowing and a trust in God and His Word that is unshakeable, so I doubt that I will be swayed.

BTW, this is a pretty funny thing for a person who has no tv to be doing! Glad I have friends!

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 06, 2000.

Hey Joe! where ya going with that gun in your hand?... Oops, havin' a 60's moment there. Sorry. I used to believe in evolution till I actually learned more of the physical science in college. The whole system is so PERFECT. From top to bottom. How many elements are there, 60-70 not counting nukes? But the combinations make EVERYTHING. All the interelatedness between all living things. The neatness and perfection. From the single celled things to primates.

Yes they share so many traits, and I know that's one of the supporting arguements for evolution. But it is too perfect to have been a random occurance. Maybe 1 or 2 things. But everything is set up way to well to have been an accident.

As a scientist You would be able to figure the probability of this much better than I can. That statistcal probability got me before I became convicted that God truly is in charge. The liklyhood of all this being random, Nah. I don't care how long this earth has been here. Had to be Someone who laid out the blueprint.

Not really trying to change your mind, just telling you how I came to my conclusion. Time for bed, got a 0:dark 30 wake up tomorrow! John

-- John in S IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), December 06, 2000.

I agree with Sheepish here, I have never had any trouble understanding how to "meld" the teachings of The Old Testament and evolutionary theory, who knows FOR SURE just how long a "day" was for our Creator? After you get beyond that question, everything fits together perfectly, at least to me, I don't understand why any controversy even exists. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), December 07, 2000.

Annie, If that theory is correct here's a question. God made the plants & trees on the 3rd day, then the sun on the 4th. How long could those plants have lived without the sun if one day meant years?

-- Lenore (archambo@winco.net), December 07, 2000.

Lenore, Can I offer an answer to this? As a homesteader, thinking "outside the box", shouldn't be a strech. That's kinda what you have to do here. God is not limited to the constraints of the time-space continuem as we are. He can do what He wants, in any order He wants, because He CAN. He set the stars in place with only a word, so making trees grow w/o sunlight shouldn't be a big challenge. I don't think it ever rained until Noah floated his boat. (BTW Noahs wifes name? Joan. Joan of ark)

One of the things we need to understand, and this can be a hard thing, is that we arn't capable of understanding it all. I don't think (you knew that!) we're even supposed to. That's where part of the Awe comes in for His creations.

What I think about every season is that He didn't have to make flowers smell good. Or leaves to turn pretty colors. Or summer showers and storms so inspiring. He did those things deliberatly for us.

He is God and Creator. If he wanted to make it all in 6 days He could. If He wanted to make the rocks "old" when He created them so they would carbon date, He could. Maybe, in His infinate wisdom, He "recycled" materials from somewhere else in the heavens. That would be in line w/ how things work naturally in His creation here. Nothing wasted, again all to orderly for chance.

I'm definatly not smart enough to figure it all out. So I gave up, gave in, and simply believe that, it is. John

-- John in S IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), December 07, 2000.

Maybe this should be a whole separate thread but I thought here might be the place for it. This is a real question folks, and I have been laughed at by both "sides of the question". If humans evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys and why aren't there a bunch of different layers going on? I know years ago they thought some of the "hidden tribes" were the missing link but does any one know if there has been real research on this? I have wondered this since I was a kid. diane

-- Diane Green (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), December 07, 2000.

Diane - You are right, monkeys are still monkeys and people are still people. I would like to know, where are all the millions of fragments of fossil evidence of the transitional species? Sure paleontologists find a fragment here a partial skeleton there but certainly not enough evidence to prove evolution. When you think about it, one would really have to have an enormous amount of faith to believe that we are the product of some chaotic "big bang" event. Any scientist can tell you that experiements are controlled and conducted by an intelligent source. So it stands to reaon that we are here by intelligent design. As far as the theory that creation and evolution go hand in hand, this is another area where man has tried to rely on his own reasoning and ignore the capabilities of God. And one last thought, as my daughter would say, "You can make soup out of a chicken, but you can't make chicken out of soup." - Kathy

-- Kathy (jubilant@ncweb.com), December 07, 2000.

Diane & John, Pleeease get these tapes then we can discuss them. Like Doreen said there is so much info.I'm not good at conveying it, I'm not a scientist in fact I hated science when I was in high school, I just made one tiny little point, Kent Hovind has a whole lot more to say about that & Diane's question as well. Another thing, these tapes are not just some guy talking about his beliefs, he uses power point and has over 4,000 slides, he backs up what he says, tells you where he got the info. & lists phone numbers of people you can call if you want to check on things yourself.

-- Lenore (archambo@winco.net), December 07, 2000.

Ok, count me in. I will get ahold of Doreen and get a copy. I wonder if he's the guy I heard give a talk on the radio called "Science and the Bible" about 8-9 years ago? I really enjoyed the subject. John

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), December 07, 2000.

Just out of curiosity. How much is the current interest in Creationism sparked by the fact that man is now creating other life forms? My husband asked me this at dinner tonight (of course, I often bring up topics from here for us to chew on...my dinners usually aren't as "tasty"!!)Honest question, though, really.

And I guess the second part of it is something like, if it's just a matter of recombinant DNA, what does that say about the miracle of creation?

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), December 07, 2000.

I am sure that the ~manipulation~ of life in the lab has people asking more existential questions than "what's for supper?"....or perhaps that in itself has now become a great mystery.

It is obvious to me that it isn't smply a matter of recombinant DNA. Look at what it is we know about DNA in both of it's forms. We can't manufacture anything tangible out of thin air. We can mess around with what already exists and change it's nature somewhat, but we simply cannot create life *period*.

As an aside,I find it interesting that there was an article on Dolly and she was reportedly aging at twice the rate of a normal sheep.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 07, 2000.

Sheepish, it would depend on your belief of where matter came from. Did something come from nothing? As "profound" as that may sound I've seen science books with the evolution theory say that "Nothing, really came from nothing" huh? I can't remember where I heard this, but the story goes something like this: A man was arguing with God, he said creation is no big deal, I can make life, God said no you can't, the man said yes I can, so God said go ahead & try, the man scooped up some dirt & started off, just then God says, "You put that dirt down, thats my dirt, you get your own." Even "if" scientist can make life, where did the materials come from in the first place?

-- Lenore (archambo@winco.net), December 08, 2000.

Lenore, I loved that answer, too! But I think the question deserves some consideration. Where does that "spark" of life come from? Where does a soul come from, if in deed there is one? Are there just chemical reactions at the synapses of nerve cells? What is intelligence? Why do we presume to think we are more aware than animals? Etc!!

Those are good questions, and even the very devout ask them!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), December 08, 2000.

Sheepish, did you want attempts at answers, or just to toss them out for pondering? They are fun to ponder....

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 10, 2000.

Is this the one that explains how Adam and Eve came from Mars? If so it might be pretty good.

-- Nick (wildheart@ekyol.com), December 10, 2000.

Nick, we'll never tell, guess you'll have to watch them:-)

-- Lenore (archambo@winco.net), December 10, 2000.

Nick, that was "Amazon Women From Mars". Jo Bob Briggs (the drive-in movie critic) rated that one quite highly. John

-- John in S IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), December 11, 2000.

Thought I would weigh in here, the discussion seems civil enough :)

I'm what you'd call a Theistic Evolutionist. I believe that SOMEBODY threw out the first ball, but then it's been up for grabs ever since. I believe that God is the ultimate scientist. He doesn't snap his fingers. He doesn't wave a wand. The universe follows very definite laws that have been in effect since day one. The problem I have with throwing out evolution is that it is not separate from the rest of science. It describes a process that is inherent in all the other disciplines; physics, chemistry, biology, astronomy, geology, you name it. Stars evolve. Molecules evolve. Planets evolve. Species evolve.

So, by debunking evolution, you attack the the foundations of all modern science, not just Biology. If that is true, then every scientist who ever lived is wrong. That's not very likely. At least, not in my book.

And as we all know, science is not perfect. Theories come and go. Let's face it. The Big Bang and evolution are in vogue with many scientists and other "lay" people. Will they last? Will they stand the test of time? Stay tuned.

In the mean time, I have two pictures hanging next to my computer. One was taken of a platinum tipped needle, cooled to near absolute zero, through an electron microscope. It shows a whole galaxy of atoms that take up a few millionths of an inch. The other picture was taken of the black sky between two stars in the Big Dipper by the Hubble Space telescope. After an exposure of 10 days, the photo revealed 7,000 galaxies, invisible to the naked eye, that take up a space of several million light years.

Side by side the two pictures look the same. The galaxies in one and the atoms in the other follow the same physical laws. They contain the same stuff. But one is a bazillion (very scientific term) times greater than the other. For John is S IN, that's awesome!. The more I learn about God's universe, the more awesome it becomes.

Actually, Doreen, I would like to hear Kent Hovind's arguments. Biological evolution aside, I would like to hear him explain away a universe several billion light years in size and age, and keep that in context with the Creation sequence of a "young" earth that was created before the stars.

(:raig

-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), December 12, 2000.

Craig, if you really want to see them, please just email at my address and I will get the info you need to you. Thanks!

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 12, 2000.

Doreen, you are right. The tapes are good. MY dad got them from a friend and copied them. They are very interesting. I go to a private Adventist school and my scientist teacher uses them as teaching tools sometimes. They are wonderful.

-- David Anderson (Spazzy158@aol.com), February 08, 2002.

To know that you do not know, that is the greatest wisdom........ "reality is an illusion,albeit a very persistent one." A. einstein peace jz

-- jz (z49us@yahoo.com), February 08, 2002.

The term "creation science" is an oxymoron. "Creation" is the notion of a divine, magical being, fabricating the known universe out of nothing, whilst "science" is a technical, not an idiological discipline, the fundamental axioms of which are experimentation, observation, and most importantly, the reproducability of results. Scientists did not make up evolution. They merely observed what was all around them, staring them right in the face in hundreds of different ways, and subsequently wrote about their observations. In other words, it is the world around us, not scientists, that states the existence of evolution. Scientists are not in the business of concocting erroneous opinions about these phenomena. That seems to be the job of religious kooks, armchair crackpots and vacuous, salon-talking bandwagon jumpers like yourselves. If you genuinely want real information about the real world, you're going to have to literally get down on your lousy, stinking knees and get your hands dirty. Armchair blather and spew is easy. The real world of genuine information, however, means a lifetime of thankless but self-honest backbreaking toil. You may not like the work of scientists, but thousands of hardworking scientists you'll never know the names of dedicated their lives to creating machines like the one you're gawking at right now. If you can't respect their hard work, then don't hypocritically make use of the fruits of their labours as you're doing at this very moment. Go live in a cave somewhere, and don't go whining and snivelling to a dentist or a doctor when your teeth rot or you have a problem with your health. Ah, but you won't do that, will you. How ironic, that you'll attack evolution, but you won't tolerate the de-evolution of your most basic circumstances and beliefs. Oh, and by the way- Charles Darwin a) did not "invent" the theory of evolution- it was around long before his time, and b) Charles Darwin was a religious man, and therefore a creationist. If anything, he believed that God created evolution. I don't particularly care what you think of him, but don't tell such weaselly lies about his life's work, such as the one where he supposedly recanted his theories on his deathbed. He may have been wrong about a lot of things, but I'll take his honest mistakes over your baseless rectal spew any day!

-- Randy Powlishuck (randyp13@hotmail.com), February 23, 2002.

And they say I'm trying to start trouble! Has it ever occurred to you that the person who wrote this post is no longer here? Hello! This post is two years Old!

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), February 23, 2002.