ALGORE screwed up big time. A BLACK Person has called for a nationwide protest on December : LUSENET : TB2K spinoff uncensored : One Thread

18 to protest the current effort to steal the election by ALGORE and the mainstream press. He proposes to go to the truck stops ask the truckers did you vote for W and if yes, tell them about the protest on December 18 which happens to be the day the electoral college is supposed to meet. The truckers who are being bankrupted by rising fuel prices (and some truck distributors Volvo in Kansas City for example) are not happy and the us vs them map shows that there is no contest the vast majority of the country vs. small urban areas with high concentrations of welfare and low income voters who do not understand what is happening (commonly blue on the maps).

He is doing this as a Patriot and for the Constitution. It is getting serious folks when the Black people are starting to wake up and smell the coffee. My hat is off to him, a man of principle.

The link is This is starting to get interesting. Your reporter.

-- Thomas Paine (, November 19, 2000


Link doesn't work

-- oh well (ohwell@ohwelll.zcom), November 19, 2000.

I have followed JJ with some interest and amusement since the Sierra Times was founded a while back. This time, though, he's not thinking. What if the other side proposes the same? Two can play that game.

In plain English, what if the Florida Supreme Court rules that Harris CAN certify the election, Bush wins the state, and all of AL GORE'S supporters decide to stop paying taxes, stop making truck deliveries, and (in general) bring the nation to its knees?

What do we do then? The fact is, we need each other and destroying the country over an election doesn't serve anyone's interest but that of our enemies.

The law isn't perfect and is sometimes partisan. If Bush loses in Florida, I'll always believe that it was due, at least in part, to partisan shennanigans and dirty tricks, too. But my devotion to this country outweighs my (strong!) support for Bush.

Rather than bring this nation to the brink of Civil War, I'll accept Gore and support him as President (until 2004, anyway[g]).

-- Stephen M. Poole (, November 19, 2000.

"The fact is, we need each other and destroying the country over an election doesn't serve anyone's interest but that of our enemies."

Poole, who are you trying to kid? We need each other? We're feeding and supporting City slum rats. Cities *need* us. Just look at the red real estate. Clinton/Gore have been waging war on our armed forces for 8 years. Who has more fire power? That's a LOT of red, bitch.

High time liberal socialists sit down and shut up. We're mad as hell and we're not gonna take it any more.

Let Hollywood feed the friggin' masses. Gore steals revolt. This isn't 'just' an election you bone headed pea brain. That girly-boy communist isn't gonna place ANY Supreme Court Justices.

-count on it-

-- Will Continue (, November 19, 2000.

Will Continue,

Even if Gore is elected, he can only appoint justices with "the advice and consent of the Senate" -- which will be controlled by the Republicans. So ... if Gore appoints a liberal justice and the Republicans confirm same, who's to blame? :)

Will you and JJ call for a nationwide boycott of tomatoes if that happens? The world wonders. :)

-- Stephen M. Poole (, November 19, 2000.

"It is getting serious folks when the Black people are starting to wake up and smell the coffee."

LOL!! Oh really?? And which chapter of the KKK did you say you belonged to?

-- (""@fucking.racist), November 20, 2000.

I was pretty happy to see Bush win this one until Will Continue threatened to not pay taxes. I'm not so sure now which would be more entertaining.

-- Anita (, November 20, 2000.

You've got to love how people like Will Continue think that urban people need rural people, but not vice-versa. That kind of naivete is rare these days.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (, November 20, 2000.

Just look at the map, bananna boy. You could always plant a garden in your closet, hehehe.


-- Will Continue (, November 20, 2000.


I think you misunderstood me, too. I DO think that there are some serious shennanigans going on down in Florida. I just disagree with what JJ's proposing.

If there is evidence of fraud in Florida, the people responsible should be charged with the crime and prosecuted. I also believe that the constant "recount until we get the numbers we want" should be ended; it's a joke.

I disagree with what JJ is proposing because it's not constructive, only destructive. That's the kind of thing that I'd expect far-lefters to engage in, not sensible right-wing types. :)

-- Stephen M. Poole (, November 20, 2000.

A GOOD REASON WHY NOT TO PAY YOUR INCOME TAX!!!! ******************************************************

2 Retired IRS Agents "EXPOSE" the income tax scam.

We are 2 retired IRS Agents and we have witnessed the IRS defrauding Americans for many years. It is destroying the freedoms of ALL Americans. It "MUST STOP" and it is now time to expose this fraud to ALL Americans.

We challenge you to ask ANY IRS Agent to show you a Statute that "REQUIRES" Americans to FILE Income Tax. They cannot find it. There is NO LAW that makes ANY American "liable" or "subject" to pay or file Income Tax. IRS fraud expert, Irwin Schiff 702-877-2833 offers a $5000 award to anyone who can find such a statute.

Bill Conklin from Denver offers a $50,000 reward. His phone number is 303-455-0837, in case you can find such a Statute. His web site is He also offers a "free book" about the IRS that you can download and print up.

The IRS has for many years used Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Implementing and Enforcement Regulations (Title 27) to "ENFORCE" the Federal Income Tax (Title 26) and has used the ATF Regulations to fraudulently take homes and bank accounts away from Americans. Because the Income Tax is voluntary and un-Constitutional, the IRS Code has NO Enforcement Regulations! So in order to BLUFF Americans into paying Income Tax, the IRS uses Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Implementing Regulations to force and to defraud all Americans into paying Income tax that they are not required to pay.

The IRS is DEFRAUDING ALL Americans and is bankrupting and impoverishing America by "GIVING" all our Income Tax payments to the Federal Reserve Bank in payment for the "PHONY' Federal Debt. Look on the back of each and every check of Income Tax payment you have ever paid to the IRS. With the stamp shown below,the IRS has signed over ALL your Income Tax Payments to the Federal Reserve bank. YOUR INCOME TAX IS NOT USED TO RUN OUR GOVERNMENT. This fraud will BANKRUPT America.

In 1983 President Reagan appointed the Grace Commission to investigate the IRS and where our Income Tax payments were going. They discovered that not one penny of our income tax payments go to run our Government. They said that all Income Tax payments go to the Federal Reserve Bank.

The IRS has been defrauding Americans for many years. The IRS has even sent ALL your Social Security payments to the Federal Reseve Bank. Go check it out for yourself and then you will know FOR SURE that we are telling the TRUTH.

******************************************* THIS IS AN IRS CHECK ENDORSEMENT.

Pay any F.R.B. Branch or Gen. Depository for credit U.S. Treas. This is in payment of US. oblig; Must be paid in par N.P. Do not wire none-payment.20-09-0900 Dir.I.R.S. CTR. Kansas City, Missouri. *******************************************

The Federal Reserve Bank IS NOT a Federal bank, but is a private Bank owned by FOREIGN BANKERS who do not pay Income tax! Rothchild, (London), Lazard Bros. (Paris), Israel Seiff, (Italy), Kuhn-Loeb-Warburg, Lehman-Goldman-Sachs-Rockefeller, (New York). In fact, the Federal Reserve Bank has NEVER EVER been audited. Your Phone book PROVES that it is not a Federal Bank. They are listed in the Yellow Pages with all the other "PRIVATE BANKS." They put "Federal" in their name to deceive WE Americans. The Federal Reserve Bank is draining the American economy with the "phony" Income Tax.


The Federal Reserve Bank is destroying America! America "WAS" the richest nation on earth, until 1913, when the Federal Reserve Bank was created by foreign Bankers. This was passed in Congress on Christmas "EVE" 1913, when most Congressmen had gone home for Christmas. It was passed by Un-American Congressmen, who had been paid-off and bribed by the wealthy foreign bankers.

Now America is bankrupt with a $6 Trillion phony Federal debt, because EVERY single dollar in circulation has been "BORROWED" from the Federal Reserve Bank. The US Treasury prints our money and then "sells" it to the Federal Reserve Bank for the printing cost. The US Treasury then borrows it back and then we the people pay interest on the "FACE VALUE" of our money to the Federal Reserve Bank with our Income Tax payments to pay for the "PHONY" debt. This is the BIGGEST FRAUD in US history. This is a deliberate and planned bankruptcy to destroy America. Governments are the creators of money, and should not have to borrow it from a foreign private Bank.

Congressman Louis T. Mc Fadden, Chairman House Banking said..."The Federal Reserve Bank CAUSED the Great Depression by DELIBERATELY witholding money out of circulation"...Congressional Record May 23,1933. After 3 attempts on his life, Mc Fadden was poisoned at a banquet! Can you guess who killed him? They steal and plunder from America, but they even kill Americans.

Congress has been lying to you because it is mathematically impossible to pay off the debt or balance the budget with "BORROWED MONEY". President Woodrow Wilson confessed on his deathbed that he committed TREASON against ALL Americans. The Federal Reserve Bank will soon force America into bankruptcy when the interest on the debt has become un-payable. This will cause an economic collapse. This is when our corrupt Government will bring in the "New World Order" and we will be ruled by the United Nations. We will then lose our freedoms and Constitution.

We have already lost our Constitution and Common Law in the US Courts. All US Courts are now under Maritime Military Law with the New World Order, "Gold Fringed US Flag" (Army Regulations 260-10) "displayed" in every US Courtroom with a conviction rate of 97.3%. All US Judges have perjured their Oath to uphold the Constitution and are in CONTEMPT of the Constitution. Just seek the protection of the Constitution and the Judge will tell you to "shut up and sit down". This could NEVER happen in a Common Law Court.

All US Banks also display the Gold Fringed Flag. Many US Police Officers are starting to wear a gold fringed flag patch on their uniforms. Millions of Americans "unknowingly" pledge allegiance to the "Gold Fringed New World Order Flag" at schools, churches and scout meetings.

Our one dollar bill is proof of conspiracy by the Fed. Since 1935 our one dollar bill has had an "Occult" symbol of the all-seeing eye of the Anti-Christ that reads "Annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum". Meaning "Announcing the birth of the New World Order". This is absolute proof of Conspiracy by the Federal Reserve Bank to destroy and enslave Americans. This proves that they've had this goal since 1935.


Henry Kissinger said, Nafta and Gatt are the major stepping stones towards the New World Order. Nafta and Gatt caused 28.6% unemployment in Clay County, Tennessee. In 3 years Nafta has cost Americans over 700,000 jobs and more to come! Congress has "SOLD OUT AMERICA.! By the way, what ever happened to the "CONTRACT WITH AMERICA?" How can they forget so easy? That was just a big farce!

America's Founding Fathers formed our Government to SERVE WE THE PEOPLE and to give us "FREEDOM". Our Government has defrauded WE THE PEOPLE and has turned this around and now ALL Americans are ENSLAVED by our Government by working 5 months EVERY YEAR to pay the Phony Income Tax. That should make you "MAD AS HELL. Read on and you'll get even MADDER.

Our Constitution, Section 9 reads......"No direct Tax shall be laid". This has NEVER been repealed. IT IS STILL LAW. This renders the 16th Amendment invalid. You cannot have two opposing statutes in the Constitution. The Income Tax is a Constitutional violation, if enforced by the IRS. Only if the tax is voluntary, can it be Constitutional.

The IRS Code, Title 26 has NEVER been enacted by Congress into POSITIVE LAW. The proof is in the inside cover of all Titles of US Codes at your local Library. Section 7401 of Title 26 claims that the IRS does not have the power to lien, levy or seize property WITHOUT a Court Order. The IRS NEVER uses Court Orders.

"Notice of Levy" or Lien is just that, a notice, THERE IS NO ACTUAL LIEN! The IRS cannot produce that document when you demand to see it.

Americans, you need to challenge the IRS when they try to take your property or bank account away from you without a Court Order. Without a Court Order they DO NOT HAVE JURISDICTION to take ANYTHING.

The IRS has been illegally stealing and plundering from Americans for decades. It is a known fact among IRS Agents that the IRS is responsible for over 500 suicides per month, over half the divorces and 3/4 of the bankruptcies.


The proof....IRS Agents cars DO NOT have Government EX-empt License Plates! Most IRS Agents have no clue why. All Government Agencies get "FREE" license plates. Why not the IRS? IRS Agents don't even know why. Most of them have no clue. If the IRS was a Government Agency, they would get free postage, which they don't.

Many years ago the Telephone Company "gave" the IRS a Government listing, because of many complaints from people who could not find them in the phone book. The IRS was created through a Puerto Rico Trust and is no more Federal than the Federal Express! As a private Corporation, the IRS is NOT registered to do business in ANY State! Without a Business License, by Law they cannot legally be engaged in business. A "heavy graduated Income Tax" is the Second Plank of the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx 1848! Income Tax is the very core of Communism.

The IRS is only a collection Agency for the EVIL Federal Reserve Bank. The US Tax Court is located in Washington, DC. and has NO branches in ANY State! This is because the IRS ONLY has Jurisdiction (Authority) in the District of Columbia. Challenge their Jurisdiction and refuse to pay their $65 filing fee and your case will be DISMISSED. They only have Jurisdiction "IF" you pay the filing fee, because then you have entered into their arena.

Many IRS publications and IRS Agents handbooks claim that the Income Tax is VOLUNTARY. The word "mandantory" cannot be found in the IRS Code, Title 26. Why do you voluntarily pay Income Tax? Nowhere in the IRS Code can you find a Statute that says that ALL Americans are required to pay Income Tax........NOWHERE!

The US Supreme Court has ruled in Flora vs. USA 362 U.S.145. that the Income Tax is VOLUNTARY. They ruled that..."Our Tax system is based upon voluntary assessment and payment, NOT upon distraint" (Force). Tax liability does not appear on the 1040 Form and is not "defined" ANYWHERE in the IRS Code.

Every Statute says, "IF YOU ARE LIABLE" then you have to do this and do that. They also state that, "if you have a Taxable year"....."IF" means that YOU have to determine IF.... So if you determine that you are Liable and that IF you determine that you have a Taxable year, then you can "voluntear to pay Income Tax. If you determine that you are not liable or that you do not have a Taxable year, you are not "REQUIRED" to pay the Tax.

It is "YOU" who determines that you are liable by voluntarily filing a 1040 Form. Americans make themselves liable by filing Income Tax. If you don't file, you're not liable. Off course the IRS will try to "bluff" you into filing by sending you phony enforcement letters, quoting ATF Enforcement Statutes and Regulations.

Before you stop filing, to give you piece of mind, we suggest you place all your assets in a Trust. Your assets should be in a Trust anyway for all kinds of circumstances and protection. If you have no assets, no sweat. Then claim 9 dependents and stop filing and paying Income Tax. Then wisely invest the money saved and then retire in style as a millionaire. Then you will not need Social UN-Security.

The IRS Code, Title 26, only applies to Tax payers and NOT to NON-Tax payers. Always respond to their letters with this statement and tell them they have no Jurisdiction over you. This is called "THE BIGGEST INCOME TAX LOOPHOLE". In fact that this the name of a book by Otto Skinner. $45. P.O.Box 6609, San Pedro, Ca. 90734. This is one of the best books on the Income Tax. Plainly said...."the Income Tax Laws DO NOT apply to you if you do not file a 1040 Return, because you are not a Tax payer". If you are not a Tax payer, you are not liable for the Tax.


When you sign the 1040 Form under penalties of "PERJURY", you waive your Fifth Amendment Rights, which state that you CANNOT be compelled to give "POTENTIALLY" incriminating evidence against yourself. This makes the Income Tax Un-Constitutional, because the IRS requires that signature. They get away with this by declaring that the income tax is "voluntary". This is why the IRS Code Statutes say..."If you are liable"... Because if you pay Income Tax, you volunteer to pay. When you volunteer, then you make yourself liable.

The Fourth and Fifth Ammendment of the Bill of Rights give you the right to "refuse" to show your records during an audit. Only if you voluntarily show your records, can the IRS Agent audit them. Americans, STOP VOLUNTEERING anything the IRS asks you to do. They have absolutely No Jurisdiction and Authority over you.


In 1991, the IRS reported that there were 163 Million Taxpayers. In a seperate report they claimed they received 111 Million Tax filings for that year. That is 52 Million that do not file Income tax. IRS Commissioner Peggy Richardson claimed in 1991 that one out of five has stopped paying Income Tax and that the Tax revolt is growing. None of them are in jail. Only a handfull is in jail because they yielded to IRS jurisdiction. In fact, you can only go to jail for falsifying Income Tax Returns, when you sign the 1040 Form under penalties of perjury. If you don't file, they DO NOT have jurisdiction. Without Jurisdiction they have no Case.

If they take you to Court, DO NOT HIRE A LAWYER. A Lawyer is an Officer of the Court and he will argue the Case for you because that is how he earns money. REFUSE to enter the Court and stay BEHIND the little fence and challege their Jurisdiction and DO NOT EVER argue the case. Once you argue the case, then you have yielded to their Jusrisdiction.

Become educated and eliminate fear of the IRS. Order the book "Economic Solutions" $8.95. Quality Press. 2888 Bluff Street. Suite 315. Boulder, Colorado. Also order "IRS under Indictment" and learn how to legally stop paying Income Tax. Advantage Publishing 1-916-222-4684.

Devvy Kidd, 12453 West Baltic Ave. Lakewood, Colorado 80228, also has very infomative books. Write her for a brochure!

Senator Henry Belmon in 1969 said....If Tax payers EVER discover that the IRS operates on 90% bluff, the entire system will collapse. Before 1940 there was no Income Tax. To finance World War ll, we paid a VICTORY TAX, which was repealed in 1944. Why are Americans still paying this VICTORY TAX? It is because Americans are COMPLACENT and have fear of the IRS, because the IRS has cleverly made Americans think that they are required to pay Tax.

Order Irwin Schiff's book, "The Federal Mafia" $25 from Freedom Books, Post Office Box 5326, Evansville, IN. 47716. This book is also a MUST. Irwin will show you that....No law requires you to file Income Tax returns! No law requires you to pay Income Taxes. No law requires you to keep books for Income Tax purposes. No law authorizes the IRS to audit you. No law authorizes employers to withold Tax from wages. Talk to Irwin about your Tax problem at 1-702-877-2833. Become educated and order his video's and audio cassettes. He can be found on the internet. His Web site is http:/ If you have a computer, enter patriot, tax fraud, IRS fraud, etc, on your Search Engines and learn more of what we have been telling you in this letter.


President Ronald Reagan, May 1983.... "Our Federal Tax system is, in short, utterly impossible, utterly unjust and completely counter productive. It reeks with injustice and is fundamentally UN-American! It has earned a rebellion, and it is time we rebelled.

Eliminate the IRS out of your life, explained on 2 video's,$40. 702-853-2342. IRS Jurisdiction investigated,$25, on video, call 801-377-0570. Weekly Newspaper "The Spotlight" exposes Government fraud. 1-800-522-6292. Their web site is

Congress MUST SAVE AMERICA and abolish the "GESTAPO" IRS, Federalize the Federal Reserve Bank, and throw out the foreign bankers from our money system and start printing interest free Constitutional money. (US Notes!) The Constitution only gives Congress the right to create our money and NOT a private bank, run by foreigners.

Income Tax will then no longer be neccesary. Excise Tax, Tariffs and Duties will then pay for Government. When the British Taxed the Colonies, John Adams, John Hancock and other Patriots had the "GUTS" to rebel against their 5% Tax with the Boston Tea Party and the American Revolution. Our country became free because of a 5% tax. Without these hero's we would still be paying Tax to the Queen of England. America needs HERO'S like that again to take our wonderful country back from the "BLOOD SUCKING MONEY CHANGERS".

Now Federal Taxes are up to 39.6%. THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE. All Americans MUST become Patriots and UNITE to restore Constitutional Government. Massive Civil disobedience is a "proper form" of Petition for Redress of Grievances and Political Protest. This is the ONLY way to wake up Congress. We Americans MUST force Congress to finally END the Income Tax scam. Imagine what your life will be like without Income Tax! You would be living a life of luxury.


You MUST sacrifice your time and effort to help us inform other Americans. Being complacent will not save America. Americans have been complacent long enough. Send this message to all your local Politicians, friends, neighbors and relatives. Also send to your local Talk Radio's. When 100 million Americans stop filing Income Tax, the IRS will be powerless and Congress will be forced to stop the "phony" Income Tax.

Mark Twain..."In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, only then the timid join him". Our great country needs true Patriots again. Our Government is totally out of control. Our Government was created to serve We The People. Now we Americans have become the slaves and servants of our Government. Americans are not free anymore.

Our Government forces all Americans to obtain a permit or a license to do ANYTHING. Without these Permits and Licenses we would be breaking the Law. WHAT KIND OF FREEDOM IS THAT? Licenses and Permits are used to control us and to steal money from us. Our Government has taken away our basic God given freedoms! Our Government has TOTAL control over Americans.

If you want to be free again, we Americans need to overthrow the MOST corrupt Agency first and that is the IRS.

As retired IRS Agents we learned long ago about IRS and Federal Reserve fraud. Because we love America, we MUST expose the IRS Monster we have worked for. It is YOUR Patriotic DUTY to help us spread this news to ALL AMERICANS. Please copy and mail to others! It's your patriotic duty! UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL!

Earl Sorensen & Fred Fuller.

-- Copy and forward (, November 20, 2000.

No, No, NO.....

You POSTED that less than TWO WEEKS AGO. You have to wait until the moon is FULL again.

Sheesh. Can't you keep to a damn schedule?

Re rural vs. urban: Drawing from my (limited) experience, there is a shining example of this "selective fact syndrome" in NY State. The parts of NYS that are outside NYC have forever wanted NYC to secede (or vice versa), "knowing" they could manage just fine without them. Unfortunately (for them), the truth of the matter is that the parts of NYS that are outside NYC DEPEND on NYC for the revenue. NYS depends on the revenue generated by NYC, just as NYC depends on resources from (among many other places) the rest of the state.

Neither side can exist without the other.

Back to the original post in this thread: Can Tom please explain to me what Al Gore has to do with "rising fuel prices"? I'm a little confused on that one. I'm not sure I "understand what is happening" either.

(Psst, Tom: There is probably an equal number of "welfare and low income voters" OUTSIDE the "blue" areas as there are INSIDE the "blue" areas. The only difference is that when said "welfare and low income voters" reside in the "blue" or urban areas, some people refer to them as "minorities". When said "welfare and low income voters" reside in the "red" or rural areas, some people refer to them as "trailer trash". You just hear about the ones in the urban areas more often on this and certain other Internet fora.)

-- Patricia (, November 20, 2000.

I'm getting the feeling that some people think that just because a particular county was colored red or blue that ALL of the people in that county voted in one particular way. Not only is THAT far from true, but what percentage of Bush voters might you think are as "far out" as the people who post at the Sierra Times?

-- Anita (, November 20, 2000.

So Tarzan the Ape Man thinks the urbans can do just fine without the rurals. Tarzan is probably one of those nimrods that also thinks that milk originates out of a plastic jug! When is this country going to get the drift that this whole U.S. and the world revolves around Agriculture and not around Wall Street and Tiffany's? Cheap food policies and dumbing down of city dwellers is going to surprise not just a few in the months to come. What you will face and suffer rather harshly will make you get up in the morning and check something other than what Cute Perk Little Katie Koric of NBC has to say!

-- Boswell (, November 20, 2000.

Patricia, I posted a response on the thread I was on this past weekend. I'm glad to see a thinking person on here.

I am one of those who "get it", the fast deteriorating American election process. NOT left or right, right or wrong, etc.

Besides, I'm sure you could go 5 years in the future, and you would not have any inclination who the previous President was.

Our economy runs itself, we the people are the economy. The courts will look the same, taxes will be high, America will be strong.

BUT, the next election will be a huge question mark from here on out. Can we trust the electoral college representatives? The lawyers to leave the elections alone? The ballot counters everywhere? We'll see, won't we.

In a previous thread this past weekend, an individual told me if I didn't like the way this country and election process is going, move to Cuba.

My friend, I think we won't have to, Cuba is coming here.

-- Three Decades Army (, November 20, 2000.

Actually, what Tarzan said was, "You've got to love how people like Will Continue think that urban people need rural people, but not vice-versa."

The implication there is that each group needs the other group. Which is true. If there was no "urban", who would you sell all those farm products to ... other farmers? The world revolves around BOTH; not one or the other.

BTW, and this is just curiosity on my part, your "prognostications" are eerily reminiscent of those heard on a similar board just about a year ago. Got "facts"?

-- Patricia (, November 20, 2000.

Well Patricia, what is going on in farming right now is not Y2K related but it will have the same effect on some of those that are in the lower income. Going on 9 years now Ag. has been in a steady decline as far as income/acre and the average age of a farmer is 54. Cheap food policy,Nafta, expenses exceeding income in most if not all crops is bringing farmers to their knees. Farm programs for financial help have been thrown out the door while other countries are still using price supports for their operators. In conclusion, the farms will always be farmed but they will be managed by Government operators and the prices for commodity prices will be set by D.C. and WILL NOT BE AT THE CHEAP LEVELS THAT YOU ENJOY NOW!

-- Boswell (, November 20, 2000.

Actually, Patricia hit it on the nose. Rural people need urban people as much as urban people need rural people.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (, November 20, 2000.

It's cool Poole. My comments were made in the context of a successful theft of the office by girly-boy Gore.

Which is more important...eating carrots or selling carrots. It's a 'booming economy' there are plenty of other jobs to be found. Farmers and ranchers haven't made a living in years anyway, they just cling to the lifestyle. City rats can dig through garbage for food, I suppose. Maybe they'll find more votes for Gore.


-- Will continue (, November 20, 2000.

Well Tarzan your urban dumbing down is showing again! City dwellers CANNOT survive without the rural segment and it's vital food production. We on the other hand can survive without you if it came down to that. We wouldn't be selling anything that ended up in Yonkers or Miami but we sure as hell wouldn't be starving to death. We are self sufficient in times such as those and YOU ARE NOT. See how many potatoes Central Park will produce!

-- Boswell (, November 20, 2000.


Your ignorance about modern farming is showing through.

The days are long gone of the subsistance-level family farm. These days, farming is much more a factory-type business. Specialization has wiped out general farms. Farmers tend to grow one or two products and devote their land and resources exclusively to that. Why do you think drought in the wheat-producing areas of the country has hurt pig farmers in the Carolinas and sheep farmers in Wyoming?

Let's assume that every farm decides to completely ignore profit and retool to general farming. Where do you think they will get their new equipment from? You don't suppose that the chicken farmer in Arkansas has a couple of combines lying around, do you? Do you even know where farm machinery is produced in this world? Heck, even assuming that those farmers will buy only equipment produced by factories in rural areas, where do you suppose the major shipping centers in the US are? That's right, the cities. Do you think FedEx will be sending farming equipment to Minot when their drivers are starving to death? Do you think Houston oil companies will be sending fuel for tractors and combines and other equipment when their people aren't getting any food? Do you think major port cities, such as San Francisco will allow raw manufacturing materials required for the tools to move through their cities if there are food riots? Do you really believe that metal-producing towns in the North East will send their men to do work for people who are boycotting them?

You haven't really thought about this, have you?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (, November 20, 2000.

But Boswell, you still have not identified to whom you would sell your farm products..... Without a market for them, what will you do?

I honestly do not understand this blind hatred of one group or another. The bottom line is that none of us can exist without the other. Why the problem in admitting this?

-- Patricia (, November 20, 2000.

Bananna boy......who's driving all those delivery trucks? How many oil wells are there in Chicago? NYC? What has 7 dimples in it? Snow White's chad.


-- Will Continue (, November 20, 2000.

"My comments were made in the context of a successful theft of the office by girly-boy Gore."

So now we are criticizing people on their gender traits? What about you she-man? If you are a woman, how come you act so much like a man?

-- (, November 20, 2000.

How many lawyers does it take to screw in a President? Hey, just because I'm more of a man than you....."you don't have to get snippy about it". BWAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHOOOHO


-- Will Continue (, November 20, 2000.

Patricia and Tarzan. What a pair! This is a perfect example of somebody wearing tennis shoes trying to fit in a Stetson. I know what a JD 9600 Hillside is and I've been to Moline and Rock Island. I'm quite familiar with stemrust, smut,leafspot in wheat. I've givin BoSe for white muscle and I've put the pulling chains on at 2am only to pull a dead calf. I'm quite familiar with everything I said previously. What you don't seem to understand is that we have the skill to produce things without the things you build and deliver to us. We can survive without modern techniques and you can't. We can be totally self sufficient on our own without your help. The reverse is not true!

-- Boswell (, November 20, 2000.

We can be totally self sufficient on our own without your help.

Where's Ken Decker when you need him? "Look, up in the sky..."

-- Bingo1 (, November 20, 2000.

Tarzan & Patricia,

"I can skin a buck, or run a trot line. A country boy can survive".

Hank Williams, Jr.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), November 20, 2000.

LOL Bingo. Hmmm... If I wrote that the words "on our own without your help" were superfluous and redundant, would my word redundant be superfluous?

-- CD (, November 20, 2000.

I'm quite familiar with everything I said previously.

I think it's pretty clear that you aren't, since most of what you said involves little more than conjecture and hot air on your part.

What you don't seem to understand is that we have the skill to produce things without the things you build and deliver to us.

While you may have the skills, you lack the facilities, raw materials, and labor.

We can survive without modern techniques and you can't.

Certainly. All it will take is years to completely retool. Unless of course you have access to a museum of antique farming implements.

I was thinking about this over my lunch. The lettuce and tomatoes in my salad were from Mexico. The cheese was from Canada. The tuna was from Asia. The grape juice I drank was from Chilean grapes.

You know, it would certainly take adjustments, but while you all in the sticks were retooling, we in the city could live pretty good on foreign food. Oh, it would cost a lot more, but it wouldn't be that much of a problem, since most of the wealth in this nation is wrapped up in the cities. Shipping wouldn't be a problem either since the large ports in this nation have cities sitting on top of them.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (, November 20, 2000.

Boswell, FWIW, I don't wear "tennis shoes", and I don't wear a "Stetson". Nor do I want to wear either.

J, there's more to life than Hank Williams, Jr.

-- Patricia (, November 20, 2000.

CD: I'd recommend the Boone's Farm Blackberry to go with your splendid Thanksgivi...uh, er...wrong thread.

-- Bingo1 (, November 20, 2000.

Hey there, Apeman,

Many of the 'exotic' ingredients of your lunch come from far flung areas already, because it's cheaper to produce or harvest them there.

Without subsidies, imagine how expensive US products would become.

Someone really should drop Ken a note about this thread, it might make even him feel nostalgic.

-- flora (***@__._), November 20, 2000.

Tarzan and Jane. OK so it's Patty. As far as our tools being in museums. If you want to hit on that issue, I,ll tell you a secret! The museums have 10% of those old implements and we still have the rest. Laugh as you might but they worked very well then and they have been taken care of. There's not a shed in rural America that has an empty corner. You can depend on Mexico and Canada all you want to for imports to keep you goin but I wouldn't bet your whole lottery winnings on it! The cheap food policy is coming to an end for you guys. You might just have to wait for that dream home or that Ford Explorer you've always wanted. And also Patty if you tried on a Stetson that actually fit you might know more about what's going on out here in the sticks as you allseeing and allknowing like to call it. We also kept our horses and the harness gets oiled!

-- Boswell (, November 20, 2000.

I once had to run a trot line while staying with my grandfather. I'd eaten hoop cheese (unpasteurized) and had to run the trot line for a few days. It was pretty rough, the privy was kind of far from the back door.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (, November 20, 2000.


'Tis true, what you say. But those two lines from Hank basically some up this argument. Do you city folk even know what a trot line is?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), November 20, 2000.

I grew up in the country. Yeah, I know what a trot line is. I'd still rather go down to Starbucks and spend the afternoon with a latte.

Anyway, Hank Williams, Jr. grew up in Nashville, which the last time I looked was not rural by any stretch of the imagination.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (, November 20, 2000.

Hey, Bos, riddle me this: What is so difficult about admitting that EACH SIDE NEEDS THE OTHER?

In each one of your posts you have attempted to CLASSIFY me into some stereotypical picture that exists in your mind.

News Flash: I LIVE in the house of my dreams with the MAN of my dreams, I have neither the NEED nor the DESIRE for a Ford Explorer (I drive a 1985 Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser -- I DARE an Explorer to get near me in traffic), and I used to OWN a STETSON that fit me QUITE WELL. I do not now, nor have I ever, claimed to be "allknowing" and/or "allseeing". If you bothered to read any of my posts, the majority of them are filled with QUESTIONS.

Any more stereotypes you'd like me to kill? (That was Question #2 in this post alone.)

-- Patricia (, November 20, 2000.

Trot line = set line,snaggle line,jug line.

Easier to just go ticklin'.

-- capnfun (, November 20, 2000.

As far as our tools being in museums. If you want to hit on that issue, I,ll tell you a secret! The museums have 10% of those old implements and we still have the rest.

I just have to wonder how long a 110 year old plow or a 70 year-old scythe would be of use. Know any blacksmiths? Know where they get their iron?

You can depend on Mexico and Canada all you want to for imports to keep you goin but I wouldn't bet your whole lottery winnings on it!

Why not? It's at least a workable a solution as every factory farm in America retooling to pre-WWI equipment and general farming overnight.

And also Patty if you tried on a Stetson that actually fit you might know more about what's going on out here in the sticks as you allseeing and allknowing like to call it.

Simple solutions for simple minds. "Dress like me and you'll know where I'm coming from," As my old grandpappy would say, "mule muffins,".

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (, November 20, 2000.

ROFLMAO Bingo. Ah yes. Good ol' Boones Farm. Man, does that bring back some great memories! A friday night, a '67 cougar GT, a double feature at the drive-in, Debbie B. in the passenger seat and 3 bottles of Boones farm chilin' in the cooler. Livin' la vida loca at age 18...

...Oh, sorry for ramblin... What was this thread about again?

-- CD (, November 20, 2000.


OK, so you can feed and clothe yourself while everyone else in the Evil Big Cities dies. We'll leave aside your notion of Christian charity (tongue in cheek); what are you going to do if you need extensive open-heart surgery (or even a transplant)? Or come down with some rare disease?

Hmm, it'd be NICE if Dallas or Chicago or Birmingham or Los Angeles or Boston still had that big medical center in operation, wouldn't it?

What will you do when you realize that there's a REASON why farmers have gone to mechanization -- namely, because staring at a mule's rump all day is not just VERY hard work, it's not nearly as productive? You won't be able to produce anything resembling the yields that you get now -- especially given that you won't be able to get the nice hybrid seeds, medicines for livestock, insecticides and fertilizers that actually work, etc., etc ...

Besides, there's more to urban areas than poor folks living on the dole. Actually, there are MORE poor people living in the delta of Mississippi than live in most major cities, but that's an aside.

-- Stephen M. Poole (, November 20, 2000.

How would they clothe themselves, Stephen? American fibers, such as cotton and wool, are shipped overseas and made into cloth and clothing.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (, November 20, 2000.

I grew up in the country. Yeah, I know what a trot line is. I'd still rather go down to Starbucks and spend the afternoon with a latte.

Ah yes, a man after my own heart and who "knows" a good latte.

-- (, November 20, 2000.


You are making the equation much more complicated than it really is. We on the farms of America don't have to take "years to completely retool" to subsist. To be productive, yes, it would take much retooling. To subsist would be a piece of cake. You in the cities, on the other hand, have no way to grow your own food, retooling or not.

Most of the "wealth" of which you speak in the cities is paper wealth only. If you split this country with a civil war or rural secession, what do you think that paper "wealth" would be worth then? I would bet a government bond might not get you a bunch of Chilean grapes.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), November 20, 2000.


In the way back days, the local fellas here used to daub some mud on when it turned chilly.

Speaking of the old ones, one word pertains to this thread's scenario:

Immunizations {or lack thereof}.

-- flora (***@__._), November 20, 2000.

(read this with a soft and slow drawl)

The sort of scenario you're describing has already happened once. The American South thought they had the north by the short hairs because we had the majority of raw materials and agriculture in the nation (at the time). We thought they would soon be in rags without our cotton and starving without our veggies. We thought they couldn't buy iron ore to make guns to use against us. We thought our gallant lads, coupled with deprivation, would win us the war in a week.

We were wrong.

The South lost the civil war because we had no manufacturing base from which to smelt iron ore and fix our broken rail lines. We lost the war because we had nowhere to sell our cotton. We soon starved because the north blockaded us and prevented actual food (not cash crop) from getting in. See, we had plenty of general farmers, but they couldn't produce enough food to feed our soldiers. Even with all our cotton, we couldn't produce enough cloth to keep our soldiers in anything but rags. We found ourselves outnumbered more and more by the forces of northern agression, who turned to recent immigrants and free blacks to help their fight. By the time Sherman got to Chattanooga, we were freeing our prisoners to help in the fight.

We've seen what happens when an agrarian society fights against an industrialized one. The agrarians got their clocks cleaned.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (, November 20, 2000.

I still don't get what a trot line is. Course, I won't be kept awake tonight wonderin', but can anyone explain it in a more detailed way? Webster's doesn't have an answer, nor does my NY Public Library Desk Reference. All the hicks here at work are out hunting Bambi today, so I can't ask them until tomorrow.

CD, do you actually remember those times with Deb and Boone's, or are ya just kinda piecing it together through the fog?


-- Bingo1 (, November 20, 2000.

Hasn't this discussion turned into the same one used last year and the year before where only the rural people would survive and the urban people would all be killed and eaten by the rioters? Get your rusty hubcaps NOW, and if ya don't have a dog, borrow one.

-- Anita (, November 20, 2000.

I can skin a buck or run a trot line

It's a fishing thing, Bingo. Why Hank Williams Jr. and J think only country people would know what one is, I don't know. The only people I know who have time or money to go hunting and fishing are city folks. 'Course, Hank Williams Jr., the guy who wrote the song J quoted, grew up in Nashville, so maybe he's referring to wealthy city- raised country music fans.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (, November 20, 2000.

We can't forget Annie Green Springs or The Mad Dog of 20/20 can we??

That Mad Dog stuff was more of a hallucinogen if I remember correctly........

Still the wrong thread??


-- Deano (, November 20, 2000.


Just be glad we've managed to get a thread of decent size without mentioning abortion.


-- Tarzan the Ape Man (, November 20, 2000.


According to Webster's:

trotline (n) a strong fishing line suspended over the water, with short, baited lines hung from it at intervals.

In practice, we didn't suspend them over the water; they were actually submerged in the water. Usually one end was tied off to to the bank, and the other was tied to a strong stick that was stuck in the bottom of the lake or river.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), November 20, 2000.


I have seen the phrase 'war of nothern aggression' since Milne's glory days. Made me misty!

Now for you other fellas, if you bring up Strawberry Hill - I swear I'll hurl!

-- flora (***@__._), November 20, 2000.

'haven't' not 'have' { oopsie daisy }

-- flora (***@__._), November 20, 2000.

Hey there Stephen o Poole, I don't give a rats nuts about open heart surgery and modern medicine being essential to us. If you didn't live in an area where selenium is deficient in your area and modern methods of food production didn't take out the goodies out of a kernel of wheat you wouldn't have to depend on crap like that. You get your Wheaties out of a box and we get ours out of bin 3. What's your next question Delbert, I've answered the rest? If you don't understand that's okay cause it goes with your contract when your granpappy left for more populated surroundings.

-- Boswell (, November 20, 2000.


You made my day.

While explaining what a trotline is to a city fellow, you state, "Why Hank Williams Jr. and J think only country people would know what one is, I don't know".

The irony is so delicious.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), November 20, 2000.

Hurling would include bringing up Strawberry Hill, so to speak.

Thanks, J. Not a fisherman. Thought it had something to do with septic systems. Really.

-- Bingo1 (, November 20, 2000.

I don't give a rats nuts about open heart surgery and modern medicine being essential to us. If you didn't live in an area where selenium is deficient in your area and modern methods of food production didn't take out the goodies out of a kernel of wheat you wouldn't have to depend on crap like that.


(wiping the tears from my eyes)

Well, I guess all that natural farm food just makes you healthier, right Bos? That would explain why people today have a shorter life expectancy than they did 100 years ago...

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (, November 20, 2000.

'member Ripple?

Never even needed a glass...LOL!

-- Peg (, November 20, 2000.

Well, it was the least I could do after all the hours of laughter you've given me.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (, November 20, 2000.

Never did have too much to do with ripple but we sure tear the Champale a new one and the TJ Swan was the girls favorite.

-- capnfun (, November 20, 2000.

Ah...Boone's Farm...and hurling... (she glances up, gazes wistfully, as the memories start to flow, and the scene wrinkles up and blends through (ok, with those gossamer-like harp arpeggios) to a fade-in from out of her past...)'m back now. I think that was enough. Ahem.

Anyway, what could be more apropos than a classic quote -- and sage advice to boot -- to exquisitely capture this moment...

"I say puke. If you hurl and she comes back, she's yours. If you blow chunks and she bolts, then it was never meant to be."

(--Wayne Campbell)

-- eve (, November 20, 2000.


You know, I'm really more rural than urban myself, having been raised in a small (and dirt-poor) farming community in NC. But I don't buy what you say.

(Nor do I use trotlines. They're too ineffecient.[g])

Tarzan said it before I could: life expectancies were lower in the Good Ol' Days for a REASON. Back then, something as simple as asthma (which is GENETIC -- forget the selenium and all natural veggies), coupled with a cold spell, could KILL. An overlooked puncture wound on the foot could cause blood poisoning or tetanus and KILL. An ear infection could result in permanent deafness. A sore throat could turn into streph and then to scarlett fever.

Echinacea and Goldenseal, combined with the best diet you can contrive, ain't gonna cure things like this. In that case, perhaps the best case WOULD be to die; otherwise, you'd get to spend the rest of your life crippled, or deaf, or blind, or with painful shingles.

It's a statistical fact that people in rural areas who don't have access to modern healthcare have a higher death rate; they have a higher infant mortality rate; and they have a higher invalid rate from non-fatal diseases. That's a fact and has ALWAYS been a fact.

I don't mean to be harsh; part of me wants to agree with you. Due to my upbringing, I just feel at HOME in a small community. (Birmingham annoys me, as pretty as it is.[g]) I feel RIGHT eating fresh vegetables from the garden and taking gentle herbs instead of store bought medicines. It appeals to my rural upbringing.

Sure, Americans ought to quit eating junk and start consuming more raw vegetables and fruit. But the idea that getting back to the land and eating organically grown food, coupled with some Magick Bullit like selenium or colloidal silver, results in drastically longer life expectancy, cannot be supported by statistical fact.


And you can act full of bravado all you want, but believe me: if the nation were to collapse into civil war and the big cities be destroyed, and it was YOUR daughter with a kidney condition that required a transplant, you *WOULD* miss that big medical center in Chicago or Los Angeles.

Admit it. :)

-- Stephen M. Poole (, November 20, 2000.

My, my how you've sent this thread crashing into the basement, Eve. :)

Next thing you know we'll be discussing the merits of dumpster diving. Of course, that's a city activity, as rural folk eat ALL of the pig/squirrel/unidentifiable furry critter and burn their trash out yonder.

How'd I do?

-- Bingo1 (, November 20, 2000.


The irony of it all is that while some people consider Birmingham to be the big city, a lot of other people consider it to be nothing but a small town. Ask someone from Dallas or Atlanta if they think of Birmingham as the big city. For that matter, ask someone from New York what they think of Atlanta or Dallas!

People live in groups because it's convenient. Cities and towns started as centers of commerce, places where people pooled their resouces into expenditures for the common good, such as police and fire departments (anyone who's ever seen the difference between rural fire districts and city fire departments can see the advantage in this). In places all over the south, small towns sprung up where sharecroppers and poor farmers could use a communal cotton gin. In the northwest, towns grew up around sawmills. In this silly, hypothetical battle between the rural people and the urban people, I have to ask, "What is urban?" Some people would draw the line at a town the size of, say, Macon, but compared to where I grew up, Macon is a metropolis. Others may draw the line at a smaller town, but it will simply be an arbitrary line, a matter of degree. A small town to J might be a city to me, a big city to you might be a small town to Anita. Ultimately, we could draw the line where any group of non- relatives lived. Then, you have another problem, because people will find communal places to engage in trade and social activities and where those places happen, some folks will set up permanent shop and others will set up residence, and pretty soon, why you have yourself a town. So ultimately, this whole process is a self-defeating one.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (, November 20, 2000.

Maybe I'm nieve...........But I thought we were ALL AMERICANS,be it from the north,south,east or west ,small town or big city.

I'll go out on a limb quite comfortably and say that if the shit ever did hit the fan for whatever reason and the city folk were in a bad way and needed help "true" country folk would do their level best to help the best we/they could.

Part of this thread reeks of that shitty y2_ attitude and does NOT reflect the majority of us country type people.

-- capnfun (, November 20, 2000.

Capn, it doesn't reflect any of the "true" country people I've known over the years either. But I don't judge an entire group of people by a couple of their "representatives" on this or any other board. Because they AREN'T "representative" of anything but hate.

And I'll take that one step further. Most of the "city" people I've known over the years aren't like the stereotypes being presented here either. Some of the finest people I've ever known.

Like you said and like I said above, it's quite reminiscent of a similar board about a year ago. A couple of the same "characters" as well. Too bad some people just can't let things go and move. Even worse, too bad some people just can't accept differences in others.

-- Patricia (, November 20, 2000.

(jeez this is NOT my day...)

"...move ON..." that should have read "...move ON..."


-- Patricia (, November 20, 2000.

Well, if you country folk can do without everything from the cities, then I guess you won't be needing the Federal Crop Insurance Corporation. I guess we'll just fold up shop and carry our subsidy and claims checks back to Washington with us.

-- Your Friendly Ag Insurance Adjuster (, November 20, 2000.


That's not a subsidy, son. That's a tax rebate.

By the way, if the program gets closed down, what does an unskilled, paper-pushing bureaucrat like yourself do for a living? Collect welfare?

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), November 20, 2000.

I see that Will still hasn't had her shots.

-- Uncle Deedah (, November 20, 2000.


If you're judging by traffic, Birmingham has been rated WORSE than some major cities. :)

The only reason I mentioned my new home is because of the medical center here (UAB). I realize that Birmingham isn't a terribly large city -- Charlotte back in my home stomping grounds is a little bigger -- but since it's the largest city in Alabama, it'll do. :)

Of course, if you look at that now infamous map of red and blue areas, Birmingham is red. The swath from Montgomery through Selma is blue.

That map is misleading, too, because some of those counties only went to Gore or Bush by a few percent. Even if JJ was right (and he isn't), it would be unfair to "punish" those who live in the blue areas, and yet, voted for Bush.

-- Stephen M. Poole (, November 20, 2000.

I voted for Bush although I live in a very 'blue' county. Please don't punish me.

-- butt nugget (, November 20, 2000.

Naw I don't have anything against city dwellers cause if they weren't there I wouldn't have nothin to visit. I live in the Northwest and wifey and I just took a trip across the country. I like Civil War battlefields so I picked out Shiloh, Antitiem, And Gettysburg. Also saw D.C. and ended up in New York City. That town was the best place because everybody was so courteous. Like "your in my parking spot THANKYOU", or "please get out of my way THANKYOU". Beautiful state I might add, but damn poor ground to raise soft white wheat. Looks shallow and too rocky from the road.

-- Boswell (, November 20, 2000.

"That's not a subsidy, son. That's a tax rebate."

Looks like someone lying about living on a farm.

-- Your Friendly Ag Insurance Adjuster (, November 21, 2000.

"If I had my ruthers, I'd RUTHER:

1. Have capn fun for my country guy friend

2. Have eve and peg for my ripple budd's

3. have Tarz for my latte bud

4. have unc for my 'city' neighbor, along w/Pat

5. have cornbread dressing ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.

(hops down off box and looks around for the exit)

-- (, November 21, 2000.

Hey there if isn't the friendly Ag. insurance adjuster that thinks he's helping the cause out. Actually you are just extending the pain out a few more months. What other business in America has to answer to Mother Nature like we do and set our products outside and depend totally on when she thinks it should rain and how much? Or if it's an open, dry winter or one for the record books. What other group of business owners have to take the price that's offered to them instead of what they should post as a fair price just to cover cost and enjoy a fair profit margin? I realize that farming is a big business and getting bigger but even for the largest it is becoming more difficult to see the turn around towards better times ahead. We have become too efficient even as smaller farmers. Over production is killing us and we know it! We know it is supply and demand but there are to many deciding factors that we have no control over. Too many promises, embargoes, and politics have turned all segments of Ag. into one segment of this economy that has not enjoyed the good times that other groups apparently have enjoyed for the past few years. But as always, we look at our situation and we say to our selfs like we have for decades,"maybe next year will get better."

-- Boswell (, November 21, 2000.

Bos, I don't think anyone would deny there are farming problems. But (FWIW) that isn't the only industry.

Take a look at U.S. manufacturing in general; aside from "weather", they have almost the same set of problems.

BTW, what part of New York did you visit (beside the City)? There are ALOT of farms upstate. According to the NYS Department of Agriculture and Markets (see the latest report at New York Is An Agricultural State -- requires Adobe Acrobat reader), they grow a variety of crops. On Long Island, there are still a good number of potato farms, as well.

You can also visit The NY Farm Bureau web site for more information.

(Jeez, I sound like a tourist brochure. And I don't even LIVE there any more.)

Amusing anecdote: My Dad's cousin used to have a farm in Brooklyn (no exaggeration) in the Coney Island area. His farm effectively cut in half the NYC Transit Authority subway work yards there. He finally sold it to them in the 1970s.

-- Patricia (, November 21, 2000.

Patricia, Well we drove from Gettysburg to Bethlehem across to NYC via George Washington bridge and stayed in Yonkers with a friend and then thru Elmira to see Niagra at Buffalo. Pretty country. Far less populated than I ever thought it would be. Then on to Cleveland,Des Moines, Billings,and Idaho. I'd do it again tomorrow except it was 7200 miles round trip.

-- Boswell (, November 21, 2000.

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