Discussing the fundamental differences between Gore and Bush's plans for America, I find a stalemate in their thoughts on Education:

Education:
Bush wants more testing, more accountability in schools to help them- Gore wants to put more money towards schools to help them -

Opinion - More testing just forces teachers to teach kids for tests. The entire creative thought part of schooling gets lost. Schools can use more money, but we've already seen that that doesn't make the education better in most cases. Many don't want to pay more taxes for plans that haven't been proven to work yet. Stalemate.

FACT - Neither of these plans are proven to work. (sigh)..

From what I've heard,just in listening to people talk over the net, schools have moved away from the hard work gets rewarded and into the "all children are wonderful", making kids feel good, but not making them very smart.

What would be your solution to the failing American school system?

-- kritter (kritter@adelphia.net), November 16, 2000

Answers

First (and this is the toughest part, but it's the only thing that will really make a difference) THE PARENTS HAVE GOT TO GET INVOLVED. IOW, they have to accept responsibility here. If they are called to a parent/teacher conference, they MUST be there. As far as I know, these things aren't "arbitrarily" called; THERE'S A REASON. Parents have to pay more attention to their kids. And kids need to be taught the importance of school.

Hey, I can dream, can't I??

Next thing you have to do is make teacher's salaries all over the country (not just in the 'burbs) in line with other professions. This will attract, and more importantly, RETAIN, The Best and The Brightest. (And I'm talking about the K-12 levels; not colleges/universities.....that's a whole 'nother discussion.)

Certain areas do require more and/or larger and/or better schools -- build them. The citizens of the USA have got to realize that the only thing that's going to improve this country is better education. That's the ONLY place to start. If they really want a better nation, they wouldn't have any problem paying for this as part of a WORKABLE PLAN.

Accountability won't work for the reasons you stated. Simply throwing money at "the problem" won't work without a detailed, workable plan that includes as the last two suggestions I outlined above.

That first one that I mentioned, though; it's the most important, but it's the hardest one to accomplish.

I'm glad I don't have any kids, but I worry about those who do.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), November 16, 2000.

Best curmudgeonly voice: more competition---break the monopoly of the NEA and the Educational Establishment at the Universities and State Boards; school vouchers; charter schools; no interference in private schools; no tolerance of violent and disruptive behavior in students or teachers; no requirement for "certified" teachers; pay and promotion for teachers based on merit; school uniforms. For a start.

No, I don't advocate paddling, altho I bet that the educationists would go for it if there was a well-funded PhD program in paddling from the State U.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), November 16, 2000.

I've thought about this for about 15 seconds, yet this subject pushes so many buttons in me I must embarrass myself with the following incoherent ramblings (to be followed by additional idiotic statements):

I have a problem paying for other people's kids to go to school. I really do. Taxes suck! Especially huge chunks taken out of my pocket which directly benefit most other people, but not myself. Whah!!!

I suggest parents should pay for their kids educations. What a novel idea! Be it public or private school, this should be done through user fees. Tuition! My God!

I realize there are parents out there who, if they were forced to pay out of pocket for their kids education, would not do so. Our society would, over a genereation, become even more dumbed-down than we already are. Probably.

When it comes to parental responsibilities, stay out of my pocket Mr/Mrs./Ms. legislator.

BTW, fine topic, kritter. Hopefully folks will ignore my rant and get on with common sense discussion.

Rich

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), November 16, 2000.

Bingo I guess you answered your own point - your taxes should go to schools.

Lars, I like your ideas. Discipline is a biggie in my mind. Kids don't learn when one or two continue to disrute and "bully" the teacher. This undermines the teacher's authority, big problem.

Patricia, unfortunately the gov can't legislate parental involvement, just not enforcable. I was the PTA president when the kids were younger. Organized an event to bring all the parents into the school, even had food (brought the grill from home). Only ten parents showed up. I hate to say this, but the school had mostly poor families and these parents have other things to do. (I remember once a kid stayed at school the whole day even though the parent was called at 10 am to pick the child up. The parent just didn't want to bother!) Sad. but reality.

Second I don't think that pay should increase just for the sake of increasing. Pay should be commensurate with performance. The union doesn't like that idea, and therefore (IMO) teachers don't strive for the best they can be. This system promotes mediocrity. Teachers need to be rated or ranked, those at the top get the higher pay raises. How are they ranked, their performance, child improvements, class discipline, among others.

Third do away with the union. Union, totally useless.

and finally "The entire creative thought part of schooling gets lost" I think we need to get back to basics. Don't get into how the child feels. The teacher needs to teach. A child learning will feel so much better about themselves from a sense of accomplishment. Creativity comes from the teacher. There are many creative ways to teach math, science and of course writing. Use these ways and don't dwell on "touchy feely" things. That will naturally fall out of a confident child.

Sorry for the long post. I usually don't type this much.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), November 16, 2000.

They most certainly should bring discipline back in the public school system. You hardly ever hear of problems in the private school sector because they believe in discipline.

Hey, a little humility (when you deserve it) in front of your peers is a humbling, yet educational, experience.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), November 16, 2000.

I'm not convinced there are easy answers, Kritter. Here in Texas, the curriculum is already set, and the teachers are provided with exactly the portion of the TASP test that each lesson plan should address. We're indeed teaching to the test in this state. In fact, teacher success is determined by how well his/her class does on the TASP test in the subject area taught.

Regarding family intervention, my interview with a local principal revealed that a teacher's free hour is to be spent calling parents. If parents don't speak English, an interpreter is provided. In my education classes, we're also encouraged to partake in community activities that allow us to meet the parents of our students. This ranges from local fairs to local little-league games. The theory is that when the parents see that YOU'RE interested in their children, and the children see that YOU'RE interested in them, we've opened up the line of communication between the three parties concerned. It's not a 9-5 job, and never has been.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), November 16, 2000.

Anita, you're right no easy answers. However, I don't believe, "parents see that YOU'RE interested in their children, and the children see that YOU'RE interested in them, we've opened up the line of communication between the three parties concerned" An involved parent will remain involved whether or not a teacher goes to local events. An univolved parent will remain uninvolved whether or not a teacher goes to local events. Call me jaded. I've seen kids falling asleep in class. Why? Because the parents had them out late last night partying with mary jane. (I'm talking about 2nd graders) I think the teachers only hope is to directly engage the child in projects in school. Maybe if the child becomes engaged then he will drag the parents into it.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), November 16, 2000.

I disagree, Maria [of course you knew I would.] When my son was in Little League, I met many of the parents at the games. One man reliably showed up to watch his son play ball. We began talking, and he told me how his son was struggling in school. I told him that we had daily tutoring sessions after school at my home, and suggested he send his son. My uneducated opinion at the time was that his son was dyslexic, so I made a card with a slot cut out, so that he could only see one or two words at a time while reading. I also made sandpaper letters and had him run his fingers across them so that he could FEEL which way the letters went. He continued with us through the end of that semester and through the summer. His parents simply hadn't known what to do to help him. They were very appreciative of the help. The father was a cab driver and told me I should call him any time I needed a ride. He did much better in school thereafter.

Another young man who attended our sessions had a father who simply beat him when he got bad grades. He was struggling with Algebra, but had the ability to do the problems after a short time of individual instruction. He came beating on my door one evening yelling, "Nita! 'Nita! I got an A!" His father has never stopped thanking me for helping his son develop the confidence he lacked in his own ability. I still hear from him about twice/year, and that was about 9 years ago.

My oldest daughter is teaching 3-5 year olds in pre-school. She's had no training, but seems to be enjoying the role. She has 4 unruly boys in her class and has developed ways to calm them. At nap-time, she's found that one boy falls asleep if she gently strokes his cheek for about 5 minutes. Another boy falls asleep if she scratches his back for about 5 minutes. When the children say, "Tie my shoe." she responds, "I won't tie your shoe, but I'll show you how to tie your OWN shoe." The parents LOVE her. One father said, "I've never been able to get him to go to sleep." She said, "Simply stroke his cheek gently for about 5 minutes." Another mother said, "You've taught my 3-year old how to tie her shoes. Can you teach my 6 year old?" Her response was "Your 3 year-old can teach him." Oftentimes, parents just don't know what to do. I think it's our job as educators to be available to offer information and techniques that have shown some success. Of course it's up to the parents to accept or deny the opportunity, but I've found parents very willing once they understand what's going on.

Regarding the 2nd graders falling asleep, this would indicate a call to the parent. Some folks think "It's ONLY 2nd grade. It's not important." They probably assumed the child stayed awake at school.

In short, I think there's a lot that educators can do to get involved and get parents involved. And, yes, Bingo, I think it should all be FREE. I never charged anyone for tutoring. The sense of satisfaction at seeing their success was enough reward. These little people are the future of America. Their success benefits us all.

Regarding discipline, studies have shown that authoritative, not authoritarian methods are more successful. There's no excuse for humiliating a child. Children need rules that are consistently enforced, and guidance to establish SELF-REGULATION in conforming to the rules.

And that's MY $.02 on that. BTW, Marie, when did your SO stop teaching 2nd grade? What is he doing now?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), November 16, 2000.

I liked these success stories and I have a few too. But my point, (and you knew I would have a response) was that uninvolved parents will not be involved in little league. I met *involved* parents at local events; uninvolved parents don't show up. Obviously, because they are uninvolved. Uninvolved parents don't answer teachers phone messages, and some get very belligerent when approached with a possible problem. Uninvolved parents don't even respond for free food. The best bet, as a few of your examples showed, is to get to the kids and then the parents respond (sometimes).

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), November 16, 2000.

kritter,

"What would be your solution to the failing American school system?"

Here's a radical, yet IMO, illuminating web site. Although I haven't read it all, in general it seems to reflect my philosophy of education.

Objective Education

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), November 16, 2000.

I'm not convinced that pay based on performance will accomplish anything. When I worked as an employee (in contrast to the contractor I have been for the past ~4-1/2 years), performance appraisal was one of the most demoralizing experiences I endured.

A group of managers (almost none of whom could possibly have more than the barest awareness of your work) attempt to rank your performance against that of your peers. One's appraisal (and consequent salary treatment) often hinges on your supervisor's skill as an advocate. Most of my peers and I thought the process absurd, and I would have been more than happy with a pass/fail kind of system, rather than endure that charade.

I'll grant that education is different from engineering, but I can't see how a merit pay system in the former environment wouldn't have some of the same problems as in the latter. Moreover, I find the assumption that without merit pay, most teachers have no incentive to do their best, grossly unfair to teachers.

I think public education should begin with an honest pass/fail system for teachers, especially those with tenure. I've heard horror stories about the difficulties in firing a poor teacher who had tenure. And I agree with the earlier point about paying teachers commensurate with the 10 hour/day effort they're presumably expending.

But with all the tax revenue going to public education, one wonders where the bulk of it goes. Certainly not to the teachers.

-- David L (bumpkin@dnet.net), November 16, 2000.

No the revenue certainly doesn't go to the teachers. It goes to the administration, the super in Detroit makes $240K. Not bad, huh? I know him and he's worthless.

I too have some horror stories about bad teachers. But you know these bad teachers, if they jump through a few hoops, can move up to AP and principal. There's something very wrong with this system.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), November 17, 2000.

Go Deano and Lars:

I say the schools should offer paddling as an option, we the parents can sign liability waiver forms, voluntary, if desired.

I would be the 1st to sign up, and I am sincere in saying this.

Public schools are a mess due to no discipline and Kritter is correct with the statement on how can our children learn when disruptions are ever-present.

Bingo, I can understand your feelings. I do NOT believe people should have to pay taxes IF their children are not of school age.

But, then again, that would be simple, and WE CANT have that. *sigh*

-- sumer (shh@aol.com), November 17, 2000.

Steve Jobs..on education:

Steve Jobs: "I used to thing that technology could help education. I've probably spearheaded giving away more computer equipment to schools than anybody else on the planet. But I've had to come to the inevitable conclusion that the problem is not one that technology can hope to solve. What's wrong with education connot be fixed with technology. No amount of technology will make a dent.

It's a political problem. The problems are sociopolitical. The problems are unions. You plot the growth of the NEA [National Education Association] and the dropping SAT scores, and they're inversely propotional. The problems are unions in the schools. The problem is Bureacracy. I'm one of these people who believes the best thing we could ever do is go to the full voucher system.

I have a 17-year-old daughter who went to a private school for a few years before high school. This private school is the best school I've seen in my life. It was judged one of the top 100 best schools in America. It was phenomenal. The tuition was $5,500 a year, which is a lot of money for most parents. But the teachers were paid less than public school teachers - so it's not about money at the teacher level. I asked the state treasurer that year what California pays an average to send a kid to school, and I believe is was $4,400. While there are not many parents who could come up with $5,500 a year, there are many who could come up with $1,000 a year.

If we gave vouchers to parents for $4,400 a year, schools would be starting right and left. People would get out of college and say, "Let's start a school." You could have a track at Stanford within the MBA program onhow to be the business person of a school. And that MBA woujld get together with somebody else, and they'd start schools. And you'd have these young, idealistic people starting schools, working for pennies.

They'd fo it because they'd beable to set the curriculum. When you have kids you think, What excatly do I want them to learn? Most of the stuff they study in school is completely useless. But some incredibly valuable things you don't learn until you're older - yet you could learn them when you're younger. And you start to think, What would I do if I set a curriculum for a school?

Got, how exciting that would be! But you can't do it today. You'd be crazy to work in a school today. You don't get to do what you want. You get to teach one narrow specialization. Who would ever want to do that?

These are the solutions to our problems in education. Unfortunately, technology isn't it. You're not going to solve the problems by putting all knowledge onto CD-ROMs. We can put a Web site in every school - none of this is bad. It's bad only if it lulls us into thinking we're doing something to solve the problem with education.

Lincoln did not have a Web site at the log cabin where his parents homeschooled him, and he turned out pretty interesting. Historical precendents shows that we turn out amazing human beings without technology. Precedent also shows that we can turn out very uninteresting human beings with technology.

It's not as simple as you think when you're in your 20s - that technology's going to change the world. In some ways it will, in some ways it won't."

-- kritter (kritter@adelphia.net), November 17, 2000.

This is not a simple question and simple minded answers such as vouchers are mere political diatribe; not reasoned solutions.

An easy answer is do whatever they are doing here. Catholic high schools disappeared decades ago. We have academies that have been hear since the early 19 century. The academies are going bankrupt and beginning to disappear. Why? The public schools are so good, people don’t want to pay high tuitions for a lesser education. Of course, we have a few people who still send their children back to Dana or CN Mil Acad. This is more of a family thing that a quest for excellence.

Are there problems? Yes!!! One problem is the excessive dependence on standardized tests. Another is the requirement for justification. Many of our teachers and administrators spend as much time responding to justification requirements as they do in operating an educational institution. A final one is the lack of subject education for teachers in their field of expertise. The latter is much like the problem with journalists. Nine hours in distributed science and 21 or so hr in Journalism makes you an MS in Science Journalism. In the same way, few high school math teachers were actually math majors. The emphasis is on the ability to teach, not the ability in your major subject.

Vouchers represent another attempt to redistribute wealth away from the poor [who couldn’t afford tuition costs even with a voucher] and towards the better-off part of the population.

Best wishes,,,,,

Z This is not a simple question and simple minded answers such as vouchers are mere political diatribe; not reasoned solutions.

An easy answer is do whatever they are doing here. Catholic high schools disappeared decades ago. We have academies that have been hear since the early 19 century. The academies are going bankrupt and beginning to disappear. Why? The public schools are so good, people don’t want to pay high tuitions for a lesser education. Of course, we have a few people who still send their children back to Dana or CN Mil Acad. This is more of a family thing that a quest for excellence.

Are there problems? Yes!!! One problem is the excessive dependence on standardized tests. Another is the requirement for justification. Many of our teachers and administrators spend as much time responding to justification requirements as they do in operating an educational institution. A final one is the lack of subject education for teachers in their field of expertise. The latter is much like the problem with journalists. Nine hours in distributed science and 21 or so hr in Journalism makes you an MS in Science Journalism. In the same way, few high school math teachers were actually math majors. The emphasis is on the ability to teach, not the ability in your major subject.

Vouchers represent another attempt to redistribute wealth away from the poor [who couldn’t afford tuition costs even with a voucher] and towards the better-off part of the population.

Best wishes,,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), November 17, 2000.

Interesting. I only posted one time, but the warning did say that the Server is Having Troubles". :^)

Best wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), November 17, 2000.

It sure is since I closed the bold tag. Now I know how Cap feels.

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), November 17, 2000.

Z

Catholic high schools disappeared decades ago?? Bishop Kenney High School in Jax, FL (Class of '78) is still around collecting tutition from the 1500+ students that attend classes there. It's always been the only Catholic high school in Duval County.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), November 17, 2000.

The Onion ParentCorner presents:

Now more than ever, parents need to be active and involved in their children's education. Here are some ways you can give your kids the support they need to thrive in the classroom.

If at all possible, set a good example for your kids by learning to read and write.

Make your child the envy of the school by buying him or her Trapper Keeper®-brand portfolios.

If you currently live in a community with high-quality schools, consider moving your family to an impoverished rural or inner-city area to improve your child's class standing.

Many television shows are actually valuable educational resources disguised as entertainment. For example, Gilligan's Island is a great way to learn about Gilligan's island.

Develop a working model for a reformed educational system that addresses the needs of every child at a reasonable taxpayer cost. Then become powerful and implement that system.

Get to know your child's schoolteacher. Ask why he or she can't drum some sense into the little shit.

Fostering a strong sense of self-worth is crucial to academic success. Send your child to school bedecked in precious jewels and carried aloft in a gilded chair by four loinclothed slaves.

Underfeed your child so he or she will become skinny and awkward. The child will then pursue academia instead of sports and social channels.

While education is important, make sure your child doesn't get all uppity with his or her book-learning.

There's no teacher like life: Lie about your child's age and enlist him or her in the army.

Children perform better in classrooms of smaller size. Lure your child's classmates away from school by dressing up as a clown and promising them candy and balloons from a great, big circus wagon on the other side of town.

In the future, knowledge will come in pill form. Wait.

-- flora (***@__._), November 17, 2000.

Deano, Deano:

As I said, I was talking about the county that I live in. The last Catholic High School closed in the late 60's. Our public schools send the highest percentage of students to Class I Research Universities of any district in the state.

Best wishes,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), November 17, 2000.

Z

I see that now. My mistake.

Deano

-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), November 17, 2000.

Get the federal government the hell out of the education business,let all educational dollars be sent directly to the states and then funneled to the local school systems as needed.The federal administration of education is a waste of good money that could otherwise be invested in real education.

Z,

Semi-sweet redemption ; )

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), November 17, 2000.

Make your child the envy of the school by buying him or her Trapper Keeper®-brand portfolios.

What does this mean? I no get de gist, fair lady. Must one have birthed/sired an ankle-biter to have the necessary background to chuckle heartily at this particular item?

(Fortunately I've refrained from further embarrassing myself on this thread. So much for my powers of prognostication.)

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), November 17, 2000.

You'd know Trapper Keeper®-brand portfolios if you've bought kids school supplies in the last 5 years, trust me.

Some of takes on public education on this thread remind me of and old saw which Flint uses on occasion for a different effect:

If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.

-- flora (***@__._), November 17, 2000.

Z--

Pardon the political diatribe, but can you inform me as to how the KC public schools have fared since huge money was poured into them in the early 90's? (I risk the cardinal error here of asking a question that I do not know, for sure, the answer. However, I do recall hearing somewhere that throwing money at urban public education in KC did not improve it at all)

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), November 17, 2000.

Lars:

Can't say. I live about as far from KC as you do from civilization :^)

I think that the money that went in there was ordered for busing from some judge born in Indiana [or some such such uncivilized place]. Don't know what they did, but it had nothing to do, directly, with education.

Now, I live in a place where the schools work, where they only ask for money when they really need it; and the taxes are always passed; and everyone wants to move here. I am not telling you where that is. We already have too many people.

Best wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), November 17, 2000.

Well dang Z, I thought everyone in MO lived in KC or St Louis or some log cabin in a holler.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), November 18, 2000.