Can the rest of us average Americans... : LUSENET : Countryside : One Thread

file a lawsuit to end this whole mess? How about mental cruelty? Cruel and unusual punishment? Or at the very least, an internet petition???

In all seriousness though, I'm saddened that lawyers now have their sticky fingers on what was the last thing that we Citizens hold sacred.

-- Annie (, November 10, 2000


Perhaps the United Nations should send "Peace Keeper" troops to Palm Beach Florida.

-- Hendo (OR) (redgate@echoweg.netm), November 10, 2000.

Since we citizens DO hold our votes to be "sacred", there's nothing to do but to go through all the due processes. I keep asking myself, too, why can't we just get this all over with? But if there is even ONE question that there were irregularities, that the actual will of the people was somehow denied or misrepresented, how can we just walk away from the question? How do you know if justice is being served?

I wish it wasn't political at all, but in fact, that's just what elections are.

People keep saying that it would be "gentlemanly" or "noble" or whatever for the "losing" candidate to just step down and walk away with head held high. Neither Bush nor Gore can do this if there is still an uncertified election result, nor any legitimate question of voter misrepresentation. Thus, all this review and scrutiny.

Personally, I don't care how many states recount their ballots! We will be waiting for some of them anyway. Why not do them all?

And why not have user-friendly ballots? In my state, we have big spaces with big lines that connect the candidate to the result. All ballots are reviewed by real humans for legibility, etc. before being machine tallied. The ballots that have, for instance, one candidate picked, and then crossed off and another reselected, get sorted out separately for separate tallying. Ballots with corrections, coffee spills, bent corners, etc., do not get tossed out in this state! The intention of the will of the people is taken very seriously.

One more thing. Since Geo. W.'s brother is in charge of the state of Florida, it would seem prudent at this juncture for Geo. W. to want to make sure every i is dotted, and every t is crossed, just to ensure that there is no inkling of impropriety. I would think he would be bending over backward to prove the legitimacy of the election.

-- sheepish (, November 10, 2000.

In the media I have not seen one speck of evidence of any voter irregularities. Only accusations by dishonorable people like jessie jackson and other al gore henchmen that some black people in that county down there are too dumb to read a ballot. That's what they're saying. The recount shows W. Bush won by 327 votes. So why are we still going over this? Bush won. Let's get on with it.

-- Shooter (, November 10, 2000.

Gotta wait until Nov. 17th, Shooter.

That is the official closing date for all Florida absentee ballots. I don't believe they can be counted before then. Ironically, it never made any difference in the history of Florida elections until last Tuesday. Now it does. All the irregularities, confusion and assumptions that have been lying dormant for decades are now rising to bite election officials in the butt. Florida just happens to be in the spot light. But I'm sure that election officials throughout the country are going to take a long hard look at the whole process.


-- Craig Miller (, November 10, 2000.

The problem I have with the voters in Palm Beach is, if their vote is so (#^% important to them, why weren't they complaining 4 years ago? In 1996, 14,872 voters either failed to properly select a candidate for president or picked more than one. Why weren't they out in the streets protesting then? Because the news media wasn't there to give them their 15 minutes of fame. This year the race for Senate in Florida had 7 candidates and all were listed on one page and 3783 voters in Palm Beach still managed to vote for more than one candidate and get their votes invalidated. The Palm Beach Post calls this Buffet Voting. They evidently do it all the time. The voters screwed up again and we're paying for it. It's not fair for only them to know the outcome of the election and be the only ones to vote again. Just really think hard of the repercussions if revoting becomes the norm. In the Palm Beach Post, an older man from precinct 29E, where alot of the mess-ups occured, said that ballot was confusing, but not so confusing you couldn't vote. And that there was nobody who walked into that precinct who wasn't told exactly where to punch for Gore. I've heard that 400,00 people cast their vote in that county. How in the world did the others ever get it right if it was so confusing? I'm just sick and tired of people not taking responsibility for their own actions.

-- Annie (, November 10, 2000.

What's really scary, Annie... . Is that if there were 14,000+ bum ballots in 1996 and 19,000 bum ballots this year, it means that all those people that screwed up in 1996 are TEACHING THEIR KIDS HOW TO VOTE! :)

I would require all residents of West Palm Beach to use the LARGE PRINT EDITION in all future elections. . As a matter of fact, I wouldn't mind using the large print edition, myself. Especially when it comes to the fine print on State constitution amendments and bond issues.


-- Craig (, November 10, 2000.

Quite honestly, I think there's no way in hell Palm Beach County is going to get to revote. The concept is as odious as it is impractical. The vote would be completely skewed by now. The election results will instead be tied to the absentee ballots coming in from offshore in the Florida elections. However, maybe the folks in Palm Beach figured that the last time they hosed their ballots, that a recount or ? would make no significant difference. This time, it would b/c the race is so close. I

It is still outrageous to me that voters who DID take the time to go to the polls and thought they were actually doing their Constitutionally sanctioned duty, were in fact just punching a card that got tossed out. Even if they were incredibly stupid (some were, some weren't) the state of Florida should be taken to task for running such stupid elections. Why waste all our time, and taxpayer money. Shame on them!

-- sheepish (, November 10, 2000.

I MUST weigh in one this one.I MUST,I MUST! I am so very sick and tired of hearing the word "FAIR"...LIFE is not is incredibly simple....if a person takes the time to go to the voting booth and then does NOT take the time to read the ballot, or take the time to have the ballot explained to them and they screw up their own vote, why is it "NOT FAIR" to throw their vote out? We learn this in school....Johnny mis-reads the instructions for the test and gets a fat "F"..too bad Johnny, get it right next time. Or shall we all sigh and say that the teacher must allow Johnny to retake the test, making the entire class wait for their results...Or, how about all of the folks who get duped because they did not read the small print in a contract...should their stupidity be remedied by the government as well? I voted for the first time in the state of Alabama. I am used to voting machines with,I was presented with an arrow which was blank in the middle, given a magic marker type thing and instructed to sit at a "booth" and color in the middle of the arrow which faced the name of the candidate I wanted.I'm 52 years old, and sat there coloring in the arrows one by one, thinking to myself "How stupid is this?" Felt like I was in kindergarden...Yet, if I was confused, or had any other questions, I could have easily asked the officials for clarification.Gee, wonder if I colored outside the lines ..maybe I voted for Gore by mistake....maybe i should ask for a hand count in Alabama, maybe I should ask Jesse jackson to investigate if my Civil Rights were violated by making an older woman color in the arrow, maybe I should shut up because i made my point.This is all 100% foolishness. I think the larger issue is why did the media call Florida for Gore so early to begin with. I do NOT believe that was a mistake at all. Do I think the media is pro- democrat and would do virtually anything they could get away with to see Gore elected? Sure..look at their coverage on gun control.It speaks for itself...Throw out the Electoral College, throw out the Second Amendment....that should be the war cry of the Gore campaign, because that is the real agenda after all!

-- Lesley (, November 10, 2000.

Another prime example of how important it is to be able to read AND comprehend. This says Al Gore. This is the arrow that points to Al Gore. This says Pat Buchanen. This is the arrow that points to Pat Buchanen. THAT so difficult? I just don't get it. We punch, circle, check off, X off, or color in with rainbow colors if you like, the person we WANT to vote FOR. All together now...Everyone hold up your #2 pencils.......PLEASE people HAVE A CLUE!!!!

-- Greenthumbelina (, November 10, 2000.

Are we sure that htese people weren't trying to vote for James Buchanon?

-- ray s (, November 10, 2000.

I'm not defending the right to be stupid and screw up a ballot. As far as I'm concerned, there were a lot of stupid votes cast on Tuesday anyway. In all states.

But why make the ballot any more complicated than it has to be? The point is whether or not THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE (STUPID OR OTHERWISE) was met in the Palm Beach vote. We will never know, because people were stupid and screwed up their vote. They might be stupid, but they still have a right to express their vote. They did not get the representation they sought by voting.

I agree, life's tough. I don't think they should re-vote! They should get smart and learn how to read a ballot. Nevertheless, they did not get to vote for who they wanted. Hey, I personally think that only able-bodied, intelligent people should vote, so I am going to design a ballot that people have to climb a ladder to reach, and then figure out a combination lock to access it. If I can figure it out, then anyone who can't must be stupid or disabled. If they can't reach their vote, they don't get to. You see where this could go?

Other states have easier ballots, maybe even less seniors with bad eyesight, and probably a lot less whiners, too. But since it's the will of the people supposed to be expressed, they should make a better ballot, remember to pick up the ballots from the precincts that they forgot, and not push the delete button on the tally machines, etc. In other words, run a decent election.

I have a friend who works high up in the county elections department here. When she gets a moment to breathe (probably not until December) you can bet I will ask her for her take on all of this.

What's my point? That the ballots need better design, the people of Palm Beach COunty need to get real, and we all need to understand how totally pissed we would be if it were us standing in their shoes.

It won't change a thing.

-- sheepish (, November 10, 2000.

First you have to ASK the goernmant if it's ok if you can file a suit. Since, if your like me and don't have much money , then you don't have any rights unless of course your at the other end of the spectrum (and collect from every government agency). Your only alternative is to wrap a rope around your neck and jump from a foot stool, however, I haven't had much luck at that either.

-- Richard V.Miller (, November 10, 2000.

Sheepish, I agree with you that the ballot should absolutely be changed. No voting ballot should be that complicated. Hopefully after all this mess, Palm Beach will now do something to really improve their ballots. A lesson learned for the officials and the voters that they should have raised alot of ruckus years ago. Live and learn. (see, I can be reasonable! hee hee)

-- Annie (, November 10, 2000.

Annie, why stop at Palm Beach? Every freakin' election district in the United States had better take a serious look at how they conduct elections going forward. This isn't the damn Dukes of Hazard...this is the United States Government. If we can't clean our own house, then we can just expect the United Nations to come on in and supervise our elections for us! (okay, I sound like I've gone a little over the edge...) What is so hard about getting fair elections? We need to establish the agreed-upon tolerance/margin of error. These should be considered by the Bureau of Standards and Measures...they are that important! I hate having this dragged out forever, but what if each count is way different?

I wonder about every vote that I have ever cast. Who threw out my ballot last year? Or did someone forget to pick it up? Thats NOT the point of this form of government. Margin of error is one thing. Incompetence, misleading ballots, and fraud (hopefully not in this election) are NOT. My responsibility is to review the election details and make an informed decision. Then I need to vote my choice, hopefully in some fashion that permits me to accurately reflect that choice.

I have been on the boards today more than any NBA defense. Just my $2 million.....

-- sheepish (, November 10, 2000.

Again I want to point out that these ballots were published prior to the election. The time for challenge was then. Could ballots be simpler maybe but that is to be set up for the next election not putting this one to the courts. As to the ballots being thrown out I don't know how it goes in Florida but in Missouri any party on the ballot may have a memeber of thier party present to voice and challenge any decisions regarding the ballots acceptence or denying that ballot. Also I have always had someone present to answer questions should I have any in regards to the ballot. gail

-- gail missouri ozarks (, November 10, 2000.

Talk about unfair,now Florida is going to have a hand count of what where the spoiled ballots. Does anyone else see the potential problems of having an election committee of mostly Democrates deciding what each voter was intending. Not to mention how many ballots could simply disapear. I think as others have stated, count the overseas votes and call the election.

-- Del (, November 11, 2000.

I don't think you need to change the ballots, People just need to learn how to read. Everytime something doesn't go your way we want to blame someone else, or something else, it's human nature. be responsible! The buck stops here, comprenda'.

-- Richard V.Miller (, November 12, 2000.

You know, that TV station made video tape of democrat officials in Michigan giving homeless people cigaretts to vote for al gore. I suspect they did the same thing in Florida and that's how we ended up in this mess, people who were stoned on cheap wine voting because gore's bunch paid them to.

-- Shooter (, November 13, 2000.

Everone should be sad that lawyers and court decisions will decide this election. This is just a continuation of the democrats and national medias srategy of divide and conquor. The tactic is to delay and drag out until everybody is just ready for some kind of solution even if it doesn't follow rule of law.(Remember theimpeachment process)? For 9 months the president lied and denied everything while they attacked the people investigating them. Meanwhile the media fed us daily polls telling us that the citizens just wanted to put this behind us, after all it's only about sex. If you don't think that the media affects people then consider this... most people blame the mean ole congress for the whole thing and for wasting the millions of dollars on a witch hunt. Clintons TRUTHFUL testimony would have prevented the whole thing.

Now we're being told how peoples civil rights were violated in FLA. and that the most important issue here is that everyones vote should count. Yet simple investigation shows that the percentage of thrownout votes is consistant with places across the nation and in other FLA counties too. In fact this same county used the same ballot in the 94 election and had simular results. The point here is that what happened in those 4 counties is not unusual.

Ask yourself this. Is the "media" showing much concern for the republican county where 22,000 votes were throw out? You reckon some old people there were confused? Probally. Are they telling you that the DNC hired a telemarketing firm at 5:00 on election day to call people in the Miami area to tell them that they may have been frauded? (This has been confirmed by the company and the DNC but just isn't making the news). Are they questioning how the DNC and Jesse Jackson seemed to know that this was happening even before the election was over? Of course not!! The big issue is that "civil rights" were violated. The constant images of these little ole ladies sure can pull at the heartstrings.

One more point. The State attorny general said they will not extend deadline for the hand count. The DNC immediatly accused them of partisianship because the position is held by a Republican. Yet the call for a recount, charges of fraud, and the hand-counting of the ballots are all being done by the Democrats. Let Bush suggest that maybe there's some partisianship going on there and you will see the media's bias. He will be attacked for insensitivity to "civil rights"

I think the whole thing smells funny. I get the feeling that this whole recount thing was planned out months in advance, I mean seriously, the same thing happened last election but nobody cared about their "civil-rights" then. They could have corrected the confussing ballots then but I quess that this is the Democrats "Ace in the hole"

I think the most important thing right now is that average citizens keep their wits about them and not let the media divide us. The thing that makes this country great is that we can have opposing views and still tolorate each other. Your point of view is as important has mine!

-- Mark M (, November 14, 2000.

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