See what you think...link to county by county Florida vote. Palm Beach is where many seniors have claimed they were confused and may have voted incorrectly, I believe them.

If the allegations are true, and in keeping with Buchanan numbers from similar counties, clear to me there is at least 1500 to 1800 folks who voted wrong due to a ballot nothing short of ridiculous. Those votes would be enough to turn this over to Al Gore.

Like I have been saying for months, this Electoral College is an outdated Amendment and should be eliminated. Set-up originally to avoid the issue of electing "Favorite Sons", has now created the exact scenario it supposedly exists to avoid.

It has been at least 12 hours nationwide since the polls closed and we have what? MADNESS. A nation held hostage to an outdated and unworkable system. We have a man(Al Gore)who is leading by 200,000 Popular Votes Nationwide who may lose over a grand in one state. This is insane. A state where the brother of the GOP is the Governor.

As to the Press, well if you know me you know I believe we have not had one of those in a longtime. Last night is a pretty good indication as any. As you watch today, ask yourself WHERE are the reporters? are they IN Florida reporting, showing the recount? are they IN Palm Beach interviewing voters who were confused over them ballots? NO, they are thousands of miles away scratching their heads like the rest of us.

Sad, a very SAD time for our nation.

-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), November 08, 2000

Answers

By the way, ...where is our CURRENT President? and why hasn't he said anything to this nation today,..we are obviously in turmoil at the moment.

-- Oooh Bubba?? (kritter@adelphia.net), November 08, 2000.

The whimpering begins.

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), November 08, 2000.

Doc Paulie,

If they did vote incorrectly, then that is too bad. To go back and allow people to change their vote now would allow Nader supporters who now realize that they helped Bush win, to go back and change their vote to Gore. That would be unacceptable.

-- J (Y2J@home.comm), November 08, 2000.

I gotta agree with J on this one, unfortunately. What's done is done, by hook or by republican, er, crook.

-- (@ .), November 08, 2000.

If the electorate was duped by an untenable ballot, then that is a travesty. People deserve a ballot they can understand. That vote count for Buchanen in Palm is ridiculous, and does not reflect how he polled in any county in the country.

Doc is right. This is a travesty. The vote is sacred, and if people were confused by the ballot then they deserve to cast the correct vote.

Actions will be filed, and this election will not be over for quite some time.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), November 08, 2000.

Good question kritter. Probably celebrating in New York with his wife Hillary.

BTW, nice job Zogby, POA and other YAPS who should now retire.

The IRONY evident today is overwhelming. If the shoes were reversed, the calls of Conspiracy would be deafening. The fact this has happened involving what I believe to be a man who exists because of corruption(GW Bush)is telling.

Even as I write these 2 scumballs(GW and DICK), a full 36hours ahead of what THEY SAY will be the final recount word from the Florida Election Department, have the balls(arrogance) to basically say they have won. HOW in the HELL do these two knuckleheads know?

The Palm Beach thing alone is ignored why? Duh. The fact they have LOST the POPULAR VOTE 200,000TIMES what the difference is in Florida is ignored, as will many things if indeed these two jokers take over the WhiteHouse.

Why did it take SO LONG to count Florida in the first place? Gee enquiring minds demand to know.

We have seen nothing yet. I hope all you Bushheads are happy, it will only get worse if these two do finally get elected.

-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), November 08, 2000.

-- Maxwell (dont-know@not-telling.xxx), November 08, 2000.

I went home for lunch and turned into CNN to see the actual ballot and a senior on the phone with Greta Vansusberg (sp) and I got to say, it WAS confusing as hell to me.

Sure, there was an arrow pointing but you *have* to see this to understand what the uproar is about. Very confusing indeed, and I'm still young yet.

Here in Cuyahoga County, we had problems too:

People just went *anywhere* they felt like to vote. Upon their arrival they were told "your at the wrong place, you are not registered, go downtown" NIGHTMARE!!!!

See downtown is hard to get to #1 and then after the faithful few did make it downtown to voter headquarters, they were turned away also. So many simply just said forget it and went back home. The phone lines were soooo jammed up, nobody could call to see where they were supposed to vote in the 1st place.

What a mess. Anyone else aware of problems in your necks of the woods? Did anyone but me see the actual ballot from Palm Fl. they were talking about?

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), November 08, 2000.

Oh well, c'est la vie. Hard to tell that an arrow points to a circle.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), November 08, 2000.

Here's another twist.

Overlooked ballot box found in Fla. church

I can't copy the story..too much html on the page.

-- Peg (em@i.l), November 08, 2000.

Posted at same time, but you do see what i mean now?

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), November 08, 2000.

I can understand why people found that ballot confusing...at quick glance it is questionable. If you look closely though, you will see each box has an arrow pointing to the hole that corresponds with it. Regardless...it's unfortunate.

However...I think the networks projecting a Florida win for Gore prematurely hurt Bush JUST as much as these ballots hurt Gore. And there are thousands of military overseas who didn't even get access to absentee ballots...people who wanted to vote..and you know what their choice would have been.

All descrepancys considered...it's still about even.

-- kritter (kritter@adelphia.net), November 08, 2000.

It's a very interesting scenario," pastor Nebel Buchanan told CNN.

Very Interesting INDEED!!! How the HELL are you gonna over look a damn ballot box? What a bunch of sh%&!!!

-- BS for PRES (shh@aol.com), November 08, 2000.

I am sick and tired of the cheap shots at Electoral College. We have a good football team and our baccalaureate program in Fast Food Management is in the top 100 of the country. We serve the greater-Scranton metroplex with pride and committment.

-- (MrChips@EC.edu), November 08, 2000.

Being a 3rd party(sota speak)in this one,I don't think it's a sad time for our nation but rather a testing of the mettle for our republic.We shall see that we will"survive" and move forward with no great debacle and not tearing the country apart.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), November 08, 2000.

Thanks for posting that Max.

What's so hard to understand about it? It would be different if there were no arrows,maybe it is just too simple.If they were having problems they should have asked for help,but then again they probably can't read the speed limit signs either.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), November 08, 2000.

Hi Capn:

When I watched CNN the senior who *dgi* DID ask for help. But, the person who helped wasnt much help either. She is still unsure of whom she picked.

As for it being too simple, um, nope, dont look simple to me and I'm smoke-free today.

FWIW, regarding the speeding limit, do they really *have* a limit in Florida? when I was there it didnt seem that way:-)

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), November 08, 2000.

Argh!!! This poor excuse for forms design on this ballot can't possibly have EVER been *usability tested* before being put out there - it is horrible!

Things that make you go hmmmm.... How many votes went awry in past years (unnoticed) because of this?

Sure most can "figure it out" if they aren't distracted by being double-parked out on the street or some other thing!

People aren't supposed to have to struggle with a user interface. Say what you will about Microsoft's business practices, they spare no expense in making their stuff friendly to users. It's a big part of their success.

OK, this ballot isn't software, and it's a simple thing - but the same principle applies. The wider the range of people to be using a form, the better the testing should be.

(Must be more of that cheap H1B labor.)

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), November 08, 2000.

I was a volunteer for the McGover/Shriver ticket. As such I was allowed in the voting places to watch the political process. A few people didn't understand how the thing worked so a Repub rep and a Dem rep showed them how to make their vote. Now it may not happen that way these days but when you don't understand, ask for help. No one's fault, but the person voting.

Doc, you do know that the poplular vote didn't elect the prez in 1888. Nothing new here. And... we should be so lucky to have these "two jokers take over the WhiteHouse"

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), November 08, 2000.

Well, here we go with Dick Pullie and his whining again. I tried to tell you ignorants that your "vote" don't count for squat...NOW do you believe?

As to GWB being corrupt, I agree, but Gore is no saint Dickhead. The son of a bitch took money from the godamn Chinese fucking government!... He is a TRAITOR to this nation! And if the ignorant people of this nation had there way (still might) he would be in the Fucking whitehouse!!!! A TRAITOR in the whitehouse!!!!!!

You think there is a conspiracy because of GWB's bro being in Florida's Government??? Then explain how he carried BOTH Klinton and Whore's home states, asshole. Are their governments corrupt as well?

Well? No answer, bigbrain?????

Open your eyes, we have been manipulated by TPTB for many CENTURIES (YES *CENTURIES*) in this country. TPTB are just getting sloppy this time around.

-- Amuzed (lol@the.ignorance), November 08, 2000.

Debbie, that ballot was designed by the Democratic politician from that county. She said she tried to make the words large enough for the senoir citizens of her county to see, and having limited space on the ballot, she choose to use the butterfly method.

She is saying if anyone had a problem with the ballot, they should have said SOMETHING to her when it was mailed to every home in that county as a sample ballot weeks earlier. No one said ANYTHING. Not one single person complained that the sample ballot was confusing. NOt ONE.

PS - boxes of ballots were allegedly lost and found in both republican and democratic areas. A box of ballots uncounted were allegedly found in a church TODAY, which begs the question..how do we know someone didn't fill them out last night after the polls closed. There's weird stuff going on on both sides...I wish we knew the HONEST answer, but I don't think we EVER will.

-- kritter (kritter@adelphia.net), November 08, 2000.

Sumer!!!,

The speed limit I'm referring to is the minimum speed limit.Florida seniors are notorious for their slow and unpredictable driving ability.I know one day I'll be a senior driver but can only hope I will know when to hang it up.I'm not trying to be mean just calling it like it is alot of the time,espescially when thousands of seniors are amassed in a tight locale.

I work with a lot of seniors myself,like and respect most of them but God help them if they have as hard of a time in the voting booth as they do buying a bottle of wine,or parking for that matter.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), November 08, 2000.

Jesse Jackson questions Florida voting

He schedules a rally in Miami and plans to look into a possible undercount of minority votes.

- - - - - - - - - - - - By Alicia Montgomery

Nov. 08, 2000 | NASHVILLE -- The Rev. Jesse Jackson is traveling from Nashville to Florida on Wednesday to hold a rally in North Miami to protest what he says were irregularities in the presidential vote count. Jackson told reporters Wednesday morning that he would first meet with community leaders and party officials who question the fairness of that state's vote, alleging that voting irregularities may have led to an undercount of votes that likely would have gone to Al Gore.

"It's not just recount, it's about investigation," Jackson told reporters in Nashville. Jackson said that missing ballot boxes and voter intimidation kept some minority members from voting, and some others who did vote were not counted. CNN has reported that a locked ballot box was discovered in Dade County, Fla., Wednesday morning, the voting location for a primarily minority community.

But while Jackson alleges that mistakes in voting procedure led to an undercount of minority voters, there was a substantial black turnout in Florida. According to exit polls, while African-Americans account for 15.1 percent of the state's voters, they represented 16 percent of voters Tuesday. And, according to those polls, Gore won 93 percent of the African-American vote.

"People whose votes have not been counted need to have their votes counted and their voices heard," Jackson said. He cautioned that the press and the American people should not be impatient or push for a decision in Florida that could ultimately be proved invalid. "There is no time limit on justice," he said. "The media talks about this like it's a horse race, but this isn't just about Gore and his staff and Bush and his staff. It's about the American people."

Clay Roberts, director of the Florida state division of elections, could not immediately be reached for comment.

-- More on this (more@on.this), November 08, 2000.

Update on the found ballot box in Fla. It contained supplies, not votes.

Found ballot box did not contain votes

-- Peg (em@i.l), November 08, 2000.

Hey there Mr/Ms Amused: Go take a flying $#&*!!!!!

Most here are NOT ignorant, pretty intelligent if you ask moi. Furthermore, why you keep referencing dick, do you want some maybe?

Passes amused a BIG HARD LONG PURPLE DONG with NEW batteries...

enjoy it asshole.

Capn: Hee hee, one day *we* will be older...key word on er. :-)

Hopefully by then we *wont* have to retake the driver test, I barely made it the first time..heehee

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), November 08, 2000.

This stuff is all happening right next door to me, I would like to make a few points.

Firstly, the ballot box found in the church was NOT full of ballots, it was full of SUPPLIES for the people who run that district. NO FRAUD!

Now, there is a sign right on the polling booth that if you have a problem, or have incorrectly filled in your ballot, you can see one of the officials working at the polling place and request a NEW ballot. So if these idiots who are unable to match a circle with an arrow had ANY doubt they should have said something RIGHT THEN AND THERE.

Allowing anyone to vote over is something that is not going to happen, the courts have ruled in the past that outright fraud must be proved before anyone can recast their ballot. That will be a hard case for the Democrats to make with a Democrat supervisor of elections running the voting in Palm Beach County.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), November 08, 2000.

Homage oh great & mighty Dee:

Bows and replies "Did you see my post where the senior citizen lady DID ask for help?"

The person who 'attempted' to help her was as dumb as a darn rock.

Supplies huh? How do *we* know that? Did any of *us* get to look in that box? Hell no.

I *smell* a cover-up.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), November 08, 2000.

One other thing,

GOD HELP US ALL if that race-baiting demagogue Jesse Jackson is headed here.

HOLY SHIT!

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), November 08, 2000.

One more other last thing. (forgive me, political junkie Unk has been up for nearly 35 hours now, watching and listening to this mess, even bought a Walkman so I could listen while I worked today, He-man that I am)

Doc,

In a way, this mess is just what we who oppose the Electoral College system have been waiting for. It is a blessing in disguise. It will take a fair amount of outrage to amend the Constitution, this may very well provide enough to do it.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), November 08, 2000.

Hey unc:

shh, Rev. Jackson is at *your* door :-) hee hee

-- (shh@aol.com), November 08, 2000.

Well, the one good thing that might come of this is that the whole Idea of the EC might be scrapped and changed to a direct vote. We certainly have the technology at this point to do it.

Who knows, maybe after President Bush gets settled, he'll look into it.

Frank

P.S. Hopefully, he'll get to it AFTER the tax cut 8-D

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 08, 2000.

I agree completely with Debbie's assessment that the ballot was poorly designed. Many people wouldn't notice the details in something they little more than glance at, and that doesn't mean they're unintelligent.

As to no one having complained about the sample ballot, two comments. First, a person often cannot tell that his understanding is actually misunderstanding. Second, how many people who recognized the ballot's poor design would be inclined to contact the designer.

-- David L (bumpkin@dnet.net), November 08, 2000.

So if these idiots who are unable to match a circle with an arrow had ANY doubt they should have said something RIGHT THEN AND THERE.

By Florida law, a voter only gets 5 min. to vote. Radio reported today from Palm Beach observers that there were no campaign workers to help older voters. The few workers were swamped and older people flatout unable to get any help.

-- Do a little research (dee@dah.dumb), November 08, 2000.

BOCA RATON, Fla. (AP) -- Supporters of Vice President Al Gore flooded the Palm Beach County elections office with calls Wednesday, fearing they had accidentally cast their votes for Reform Party Candidate Pat Buchanan because of the way the punch-card ballot was laid out.

Lawyers for the Democratic Party said that the ballot design is illegal and that they may ask for a re-vote in Palm Beach County.

Buchanan got 3,407 votes for president in the heavily Democratic county Tuesday, more than he received in any other Florida county, according to unofficial returns from all precincts. With 100 percent of precincts reporting statewide, Gore was behind Texas Gov. George W. Bush by fewer than 1,800 votes, and Florida held the key to the outcome of the national race.

``I think I voted mistakenly for Buchanan because his dot appeared between Bush's and Gore's,'' said 76-year-old Stanley Haber of Boca Raton, who went to Palm Beach County Supervisor of Elections offices to complain. ``I think there should be a totally new vote.''

Two larger counties south of Palm Beach both had much lower Buchanan results -- 789 in Broward County and 561 in Miami-Dade County. In Duval County, a much more conservative county in northeast Florida, only 650 Buchanan votes were cast.

The confusion apparently arose from the way Palm Beach County's punch- card style ballot was laid out for the presidential race. Candidates are listed in two columns, with holes down the middle between the columns, to the right or the left of each candidate's name.

The top hole was for Bush, who was listed at top left; the second hole was for Buchanan, listed at top right, and the third hole was for Gore, listed under Bush on the left. Arrows linked the names with the proper hole, but some voters feared they had missed the arrows and punched the wrong hole.

``When ballots are placed in the slide for voting, Al Gore and Joe Lieberman are the second names on the ballot, but the third hole to punch,'' Florida Democratic Party Communications Director Bill Buck said in a statement.

``It was so hard to tell who and what you were voting for. I couldn't figure it out, and I have a doctorate,'' voter Eileen Klasfeld said.

Boca Raton resident Blake Smith incorrectly punched his ballot and had to ask for a second card.

``When I went to push the one for president, I pushed one and it seemed to be just below the office of vice president. It seemed like I had to push one for vice president, too. Then I saw I had accidentally voted twice,'' Smith said.

But Clay Roberts, director of the Florida Department of Elections, said the problem in Palm Beach County was exaggerated.

``I don't think they are confused. I think they left the polling place and became confused. The ballot is very straightforward. You follow the arrow, you punch the location. Then you have voted for who you intend to elect,'' said Roberts, a Republican appointed by Gov. Jeb Bush, George W.'s brother.

Palm Beach County Supervisor of Elections Theresa LePore said her office received calls about the problem all day. ``It has mostly been the Democratic Party calling to complain,'' LePore said.

Outside the Palm Beach elections office, about 50 outraged citizens carried signs protesting the ballots.

``It was an injustice. Thousands of people were confused,'' said 42- year-old Niso Mama. ``We have to have another election in this county.''

Florida law specifies that voters mark an X in the blank space to the right of the name of the candidate they want to vote for.

Mb>Jeff Liggio, a lawyer for county Democrats, called the ballot illegal. ``Right means right, doesn't it? The state law says right, it doesn't mean left,'' he said.

Don A. Dillman of the American Association for Public Opinion Research, who has done research on the design of paper questionnaires, called the ballot confusing.

``I've never seen one set up like this,'' Dillman said from Pullman, Wash. ``It's very confusing the way they have put things on the right side together with things on the left side. I can see why there might be a problem. If you passed over the first candidate to go for the second candidate, it's logical that you'd punch the second hole.''

-- Ballot illegal (re@vote?.com), November 08, 2000.

I think a revote for Palm county would be the quickest way to ensure a fair outcome and avoid long, nasty lawsuits.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), November 08, 2000.

I don't need to do research diphead, I live here.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), November 08, 2000.

And just to show that I am fair, I have now seen a report that outright fraud does not have to be shown under Florida law to contest a vote.

So there diphead.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), November 08, 2000.

Oh yeah, sumer.

They opened that ballot box in front of the cameras, relax, whatever you are smelling it ain't what was in that box.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), November 08, 2000.

***A copy of the ballot was sent out to every home in the county two weeks prior to election day.***

-- cin (cin@cin.cin), November 08, 2000.

I could have very easily miscast my ballot if I were voting in Palm Beach and intended to vote Democratic. And I would have not realized I had done so, and would not have asked for help. Looking just at the left side of the page, the first hole lines up with the Republican choice and the second hole lines up with the large capitalized word DEMOCRATIC. The arrows and their goofy sequencing would have likely appeared to me as "for office purposes."

I am also reminded that elderly people are simply not comfortable with some of the conventions that the rest of us may take for granted. They did not attend school at a time when tests were taken with grid answersheets, and they cannot set the clock on their VCRs. I am not elderly, technophobic, far sighted or illiterate, (but I will admit to being somewhat "dylsexic"), but I might easily have punched the second circle and proceeded to the Senators, or whatever, without stopping to read all about Lyndon LaRouche, and the Communist Party, and the Spring Break Party or whoever else was in that section.

As for the lost ballot box which reportedly had merely been full of blank supply ballots, I would be curious to know whether the daycare worker who found the box followed it from the time she reported it until it was unlocked. If not, which combinations of people had possession and control of it?

From: Politics, C la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), November 08, 2000.

Doc, I just saw a report that Buchanan got about 0.79%, about the same as other similar areas and the state in general, and that the Buchanan vote wasn't abnormal. This one should be easy to prove, there would OTHER votes in the wrong places as well, and wouldn't there be a LOT of them? The designer of the ballot is a Demorcrat, per the reports. Its not well layed out, but those big arrows are hard to miss. I do expect to hear more of this "claim" though, based on TV reports, as I said in another thread, in the end, I don't believe its gonna fly....

-- David (David@bzn.com), November 08, 2000.

This just in,

A relative of Pat Buchanan lives in Palm Beach County. Pat got some 8000 votes in the primary in Palm Beach County.

I wonder if all of those 8000 votes were also from stupid people who did not look at the ballot before punching away at it.

3000 votes for Pat do not look so far out of line now.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), November 08, 2000.

Hmmm, the ballot design must have been chosen by the Jeb Shrub, in fact it looks like he designed it.

-- (just@helpin.shrubya), November 08, 2000.

If "seniors" vote in error, then they shouldn't be allowed to vote EVER again! My God! The government takes their driver's licenses away for being irresponsible and dangerous, why not their voting privileges too? I'm tired of hearing all the whining from poor losers! Neener neener neener.......

-- Mrs. Cleaver (Mrs. Cleaver@LITBBB.vcom), November 08, 2000.

Me too!

Awe quit yer snivelin

-- cin (cin@cin.cin), November 08, 2000.

The ballot in No way was confussing.. I know for a fact in paper votes that it is explained to you. It also is posted for you to view before time. I feel Gore people are making a big mess of this whole race and it shows poor sportmanship. This has Never happened in our Voting history for the President other than Kennedy and Nixon.. Nixon did Not persue a recount...I think it's time that the loser (Gore) act like a man and not a spoiled brat and realize he lost... As for all these eldery crying they voted for the wrong guy.. well a vote is a vote.. if you do not educate yourself prior it's your own stupidity...NO cry baby tears now... I am sick of hearing stories of law suits and demands of recounds.... Good forbid!! Then lets do Every state, county and mail in ballot.. We won't know who will be the president for months and Clinton will stay in the White house well into next year.. Do you all want that!!!!!

-- an Independent (sleepless_inpa1@yahoo.com), November 09, 2000.

Pathetic is what you **TOO BADD** people are and I want you to know it. Your attitude is shallow, inconsiderate, uncaring, and as unconvincing as Bill Clinton or the vote count in Dixie is.

Tommorrow I want all you twits to bad mouth, yell and scream at all those who would dare be a little slow. Who may ask for a hand. Who may actually need your seat on the train, tell-em to F-off. Granda ma go to hell and get the Fk out ta my way, let your voice be heard!

Happy Holidays

-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), November 09, 2000.

Here Unk fit this in your analysis...ht tp://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20001108/pl/mdf129505.html

Now is it hole #7 or the one next to the hole with the numbered arrow? Hurry up now people are waiting you blind old WWII vet who smells bad and can't see to save your life.

BTW, but for 3,000 mistakes and many here would be livid and yelling conspiracy at the top of their lungs.

-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), November 09, 2000.

Oh Doc don't be such an old woman.

Look, the ballot was designed by a Democrat, and approved by both major parties. It was sent out to people in the mail so that they would have TWO WEEKS to look at it. Somehow I, a busy self-employed man found the time to look at it, while retired seniors with nothing but free time on their hands did not, or, somehow were able to figure it out over the span of two weeks. One or the other, either they did not look at it ahead of time, or they did not find it confusing, either way the fault is with the voter. It has been stated on the local new that NOT ONE complaint was filed before election day, not ONE.

Now, one last thing. To suggest that I am rude or nasty to seniors is a load of horseshit, and shows that you do not know me AT ALL! I deal with seniors nearly every day of my business life. I have even taken the time to PUMP GAS for seniors who could not figure out the pump, many times I have done this, old people are EVERYWHERE down here. I let little old ladies put their jug of milk in front of me in the grocery line because I as a young man can stand to hold my six-pack for 5 minutes longer. I treat them the way I would like my mother the senior treated. So Doc, FUCK YOU very much you asshole, eat shit and die, and again, fuck you very much.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), November 09, 2000.

Um, opps, WRONG door!!! (lingers a moment, reads unc's latest post, Laughs Ass Off and quickly retreats to door #3)

What a hoot :-)

So you allow lil ol ladies to cut in front of you because you can hold your 6 pack longer? What a scream.....HEE HEE

LMFAO.

This is tooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo damn funny.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), November 09, 2000.

Unk, you gotta forgive Doc. He is having a bout with his own personal meme, and is a bit distressed to find himself on the receiving end for once. He can't bring himself to address the fact that Gore DID take money from the Chinese government....to even acknowledge that fact would bring his meme about "Bush being corrupt" crashing to the ground. He can't address the fact that people don't seem to be able to follow a very clear arrow that points directly to a circle....so he changes that to an attack on anyone he disagrees with by saying "tell G'ma to FO" [nice touch there, SRB].

He also seems incapable of addressing the fact that people in florida had 2 weeks to learn the ballot, and NOT ONE call was made to protest the ballot lay-out. Hmmmmm.

So unk, go easy on Doc. During the y2k debate he had the luxury of looking in on people with a meme, and correctly addressing the situation because he himself was "meme-free".... that is not the case for fannybubbles this time around. HE is the one "infected" and can't seem to bring himself to accept that.

-- Former D-bunky (sad@for.U.all), November 09, 2000.

hey Thanks for the wonderful compliments Unk! You show your true colors you hypocrite.

Unlike yourself, the TOO BADD crap has now stopped on this webboard, your welcome.

-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), November 09, 2000.

Tommorrow I want all you twits to bad mouth, yell and scream at all those who would dare be a little slow. Who may ask for a hand. Who may actually need your seat on the train, tell-em to F-off. Granda ma go to hell and get the Fk out ta my way, let your voice be heard!

Right on Doc. These low-class Republicans would step on a dying man to deposit their paychecks first.

-- Justice will prevail (palm@beach.story), November 09, 2000.

I'm not sure what the relevance is that a Democrat approved the ballot or that no complaints were ever registered about the ballot before the election. With regards to the ballot's overall legality I can see the relevance of these points, but that doesn't change the fact that it is possible that 3,000 votes were completed incorrectly. Whether or not something can or should be done about those votes is likely up to Florida election laws.

Nevertheless, Pat Buchanan himself said that he doesn't believe that the 3,000 votes really belonged to him and that they should really go to Gore. He also said that he "did not feel well" about those votes going to him. That being the case, how will Bush feel if it turns out that he was awarded the Presidency due to a few old people in WPB who didn't fill out their ballots correctly?

At the very least, he should send each one of them a fruit basket.

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), November 09, 2000.

Oh Doc, I'm so sorry. I didn't realise that you are, in fact, an old woman. Your picture does not do you justice. Please accept my sincere apology. I am not one who picks on people who are slower, much older, and duller than I am, and since you have called me a hypocrit for cussin at you, I will assume that you are, indeed, either slower, much older, or duller than I am.

I am very, very sorry. The next time I see you standing there with a vacant expression on your face I promise I will pump your gas for you.

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), November 09, 2000.

Gore Team Demands New Recount - Legal Challenge Set for Palm Beach, Fla., Ballots

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/Election_Main.html

-- Things (are@heating.up), November 09, 2000.

Democrats To Demand Recount by Hand

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20001109/el/eln_election_rdp_83.html

-- (new@news.now), November 09, 2000.

Hey Unk, I want lessons on how you hold a six-pack for so long. Hell, I can't even make it to the first commercial.

-- (@ .), November 09, 2000.

Mr. Brown, it pains me to watch your mutation from dedicated champion of reason to self-flagellating delusional servant to the evil Clinton/Gore machine. You have turned out to be a major disappointment sir. Perhaps you were a fraud all along.

-- I (h@ve.spoken), November 09, 2000.

http://www.herald.com/thispage.htm?content/archive/news/yahoo/digdocs/ 098224.htm

Link

Published Thursday, November 9, 2000, in the Miami Herald

Palm Beach ballot glitch may be decisive factor

BY DANIEL de VISE, GEOFF DOUGHERTY AND ANDRES VIGLUCCI

A confusing ballot layout in Palm Beach County that some claim led hundreds of Democratic partisans to mistakenly vote for Reform Party candidate Patrick Buchanan has assumed critical importance in the agonizingly close presidential election.

With a recount of Florida's nearly six million votes underway, numerous but unconfirmed allegations of voting irregularities began surfacing across the state, ranging from the intriguing to routine glitches. Some, including reports of "missing" or forgotten ballot boxes in Broward, Palm Beach and Miami-Dade counties, were quickly debunked by elections officials.

But lawyers, journalists and party activists for both major candidates were honing in on what appeared to be a disproportionate vote total for Buchanan in Palm Beach County, a Democratic strong- hold where the conservative candidate garnered 3,407 votes -- far more than he did in any other Florida county.

A Herald statistical analysis shows Buchanan's Palm Beach total to be a clear anomaly. If the county had followed the same voting patterns as the rest of the state, Buchanan would have pulled in only 1,000 votes.

Assuming the balance of the votes was intended for Gore, the Democrat would have picked up 2,400 more votes, enough to surmount Republican George W. Bush's slender 1,700-vote advantage in the initial state tally -- and win the White House. An ongoing recount has further reduced Bush's lead to 941 votes.

Complaints from voters saying they were confused by the ballot's design began pouring into the elections office even before the polls closed on Tuesday, and continued Wednesday.

"I came out of the ballot box totally confused," said Lillian Gaines, 67, of West Palm Beach, who dropped in at the elections office to complain. "I don't know whether I have thrown away my vote and voted for Buchanan. I would drop dead immediately."

Citing the alleged irregularities, a Boca Raton law firm with Democratic ties filed a lawsuit Wednesday on behalf of three Palm Beach residents asking for a new county vote.

Democratic leaders said the design of the disputed ballot, which was unique to the county, was illegal and that they, too, might ask for a new vote.

"Hundreds of people spoke to me yesterday before the polls closed about their extraordinary confusion. I myself when I went to the polls was confused," said U.S. Rep. Robert Wexler.

"I saw the people who came out of the polling places. They were crying. They were in tears. In hysterics."

Republican officials scoffed at the claims.

"In the end there will be 46,000 people claiming they voted for Pat Buchanan by mistake," said U.S. Rep. Mark Foley, a Palm Beach Republican.

At issue is a punch-style ballot page that Democratic leaders likened to a "maze." Bush was listed first, at the top left. Gore was listed second, under Bush at the left. Buchanan's name was at the top right.

Arrows beside each name pointed to the proper holes to punch. The punch-hole for Bush was first in a vertical column in the middle of the ballot page, with the punch-hole for Buchanan second, and Gore's third. Some voters feared they had punched the second hole -- Buchanan's -- under the erroneous assumption that it corresponded to Gore's second position on the ballot.

Jeff Liggio, a lawyer for Palm Beach County Democrats, called the ballot illegal. Florida law specifies that voters mark an X in the blank space to the right of the name of the candidate they want to vote for.

"Right means right, doesn't it? The state law says right, it doesn't mean left," he said.

Wexler produced a memorandum issued by Elections Supervisor Theresa LePore around 5 p.m. on Election Day that hinted at the confusion among voters.

The memo told poll workers to remind all voters "that they are to vote only for one presidential candidate and that they are to punch the hole next to the arrow next to the number next to the candidate they wish to vote for."

LePore declined to comment. A staffer said her office would finish its recount before considering any other complaints from the public.

GOP leaders offered little sympathy. They said the ballot had been reviewed and approved by both major political parties and by state election regulators.

Palm Beach County aside, Buchanan's top vote count was 1,012 in Pinellas County. He got 561 votes in Miami-Dade and 789 in Broward.

According to The Herald analysis, Gore outpolled Buchanan 167-1 across Florida.

However, in Palm Beach that difference was a less-pronounced 79-1, with some precincts showing margins as low as 5-1.

Most Florida counties where Buchanan made inroads went solidly to Bush, but the Palm Beach county vote favored Gore.

That Buchanan would do so well in Palm Beach, considering its pro- Gore results, is a statistical improbability, The Herald analysis concluded.

Susan MacManus, an elections expert at the University of South Florida, said the analysis points to problems in Palm Beach County. "A combination of design and a type of ballot that is problematic to seniors probably caused some of this," she said.

Many complaints aired Wednesday across South Florida came from would- be voters who thought they had registered, but were turned away from polls because their names did not appear on the rolls.

In such instances, poll clerks are required to place a call to the supervisor's office to verify the voter's status.

But poll workers said the phone lines were jammed.

Because many of those complaints came from black voters, the NAACP and other national organizations sent representatives to Florida to investigate.

Broward's supervisor of elections, Jane Carroll, said her offices have dedicated lines for the precincts, but the system cannot always handle the glut.

In Miami-Dade, attorney Joe Geller, chairman of the Dade Democratic Party, said he plans to ask for a manual recount of the county's results. He said Dade had an unusually high number of ballots invalidated because people voted for more than one candidate in a race -- about 17,000. The number of such "overvotes" for president in Palm Beach was 19,120. No one knows who those voters favored.

In Miami-Dade and Broward, several reports that poll workers lost boxes containing ballots, or left them uncounted in precincts, were unfounded, officials said.

In a half-dozen instances, workers at schools and churches that served as polling places in Miami-Dade placed worried calls to elections officials after finding locked ballot boxes left behind by workers.

But the boxes just hold supplies, says Gisela Salas, assistant supervisor of the Miami-Dade Elections Department.

All the transfer cases used to transport ballots to the elections department were accounted for, she said.

Herald staff writers Ana Acle, Lisa Arthur, Andrea Elliott, Don Finefrock, Steve Harrison, Sonji Jacobs, Judy Odierna, Sara Olkon, Charles Rabin and Herald wire services contributed to this report.

-- (Miami@Herald.article), November 09, 2000.

It's instructive to put the Palm Beach vote controversy into perspective. Nearly 270,000 voters had no trouble finding the correct hole to bunch for Al Gore on the Butterfly ballot. That's the recount total for Al Gore, compared to 153,000 for Bush.

-- Buster Collins (Hiway441@aol.com), November 09, 2000.

Any attempt on the part of the Gore pimp masters to re-do any element of the election will result in the Republican party challenging vote counts and improper procedures throughout the country. You Gore supporters are getting a good look at who runs the Democratic machine and it sure as hell is not dimwit and his drug-fried better half, Tweeky.

All I see is the Worlds Smartest Nigger and the normal cast of thousands of supporters who amazingly are always available for protests on working days, stirring up shit in Florida. Throw in some other third world newbies that wont shut the fuck up and there you have the foundation of our citizenry demanding their way in Florida. NOT!

Meanwhile, the working folks that make this country tick, are forced to get the latest when they get home from earning a living and supporting their families. I swear that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have amassed a million or so PoFolk to show up wherever the cause is in jeopardy. Assholes sure are not at work, and that includes Jesse and Al. Who pays these niggers anyway?

Well, that is enough for now. Check back in two weeks and see how fucked up this mess is going to get.

-- I (h@ve.spoken), November 09, 2000.

I (h@ve.spoken),

I think you may have a point. Unfortunately, it seems to be hidden under that funny white hood you are wearing on your head.

-- Spindoc' (spindoc@nolynchings.please), November 09, 2000.

Well Spindoc, I just have no problem calling a spade a spade. I think that political correctness has had a good run but most folks are plain are sick of that shit. Anyway, that is my story and I am sticking to it.

-- I (h@ve.spoken), November 10, 2000.

I (h@ve.spoken),

It has nothing to do with political correctness. I have no use for political correctness. Let me be a bit less subtle:

In my opinion, your comments are simple-minded pointy-headed bigotry.

Ain't free speech grand?

-- Spindoc' (spindoc@nolynchings.please), November 10, 2000.

Bush Leads Gore By 229 in Florida

-- History (in@the.making), November 10, 2000.

http://www.gopbi.com/partners/pbpost/epaper/editions/today/news_1.html

Voters ask for 'do-over' election

By George Bennett, Palm Beach Post Staff Writer
Thursday, November 9, 2000

The presidency of the United States could hinge on court challenges to the way Palm Beach County's ballot was configured on election day, key Florida supporters of Vice President Al Gore said Wednesday.

As Democrats prepared to send elections lawyers throughout the state, a group of voters filed a lawsuit Wednesday saying the county's ballot was confusing enough to merit a new presidential election in Palm Beach County.

And state Sen. Ron Klein, a vice chairman of Gore's Florida campaign, said more litigation is likely, possibly as early as today.

Republican George W. Bush was leading the state by fewer than 1,800 votes as Florida's 67 counties recounted their ballots. In Palm Beach County, Democrats say, many of the 3,407 votes that went to Reform Party candidate Pat Buchanan may have come from Gore supporters who were confused by the ballot's layout.

Unlike ballots in Florida's other 66 counties, which listed candidates on a single page, Palm Beach County's ballot listed 10 presidential candidates on two facing pages with a single column of punch holes running between them.

Gore was the second candidate on the left page, but the corresponding punch hole was third from the top.

"It is clear at this moment that the votes for Pat Buchanan are distinctly relevant to the question of which candidate won Florida and which candidate shall be the next president of the United States," U.S. Rep. Robert Wexler, D-Boca Raton, declared at a midday news conference outside the county elections office.

Buchanan's 3,407 votes Tuesday were a mere 0.8 percent of the county total. But they were considerably more than the 0.29 percent he got statewide.

Democrats also suggested that Gore may have lost thousands more votes because bewildered voters marked their ballots for more than one presidential candidate.

In Palm Beach County, 19,120 ballots -- 4.1 percent of the total -- were disqualified Tuesday because voters marked more than one presidential candidate. Only 1.7 percent of ballots were rejected for that reason in Broward County and only 2.7 percent in Miami-Dade. Those counties listed presidential candidates on a single page.

About another 10,000 ballots were thrown out because they had no names punched at all.

"The presidency of the United States hinges on the 19,000 people who have been disenfranchised in Palm Beach County by an extremely confusing ballot," Wexler said.

Reeve Bright, the attorney for the county GOP, agreed 19,000 was a large number of ballots disqualified for voting for more than one candidate.

But he and other Republicans disputed Democrats' claims the election was tainted.

"People had ample opportunity to challenge this ballot" before the election, Gov. Jeb Bush said during a Tallahassee news conference. A sample ballot was made public before the election.

"The challenge probably should have occurred, as the law allows, before the election," Bush said.

But Klein said the sample ballot did not look as confusing as the real thing.

"Until you put the ballot in the bracket, you didn't notice it was slightly misaligned," Klein said.

In the lawsuit filed Wednesday, three Democratic voters claimed they were confused by the punch-card ballots on Election Day and fear they may have accidentally voted for Buchanan. Their suit asked that the ballots be declared invalid and a new election be granted in Palm Beach County.

Andre Fladell, a chiropractor from Delray Beach, Alberta McCarthy, a city commission member from Delray Beach, and Lillian Gaines, a civic worker from West Palm Beach, filed the lawsuit in Palm Beach County Circuit Court.

The lawsuit is a complaint for declaratory relief, meaning the voters want the election results declared null and void and are asking for a re-vote in the presidential race to be held in Palm Beach County.

"We want to redo things the right way," said attorney Henry Handler, who is representing the voters.

The voters are suing the Palm Beach County Canvassing Board, which includes Elections Supervisor Theresa LePore, as well as candidates George Bush, Dick Cheney, Al Gore and Joseph Lieberman.

Handler said his clients were confused by the placement of the candidates' names and the corresponding punch holes on the ballot.

"They're very concerned that their votes went to Buchanan or were invalidated," Handler said.

The lawsuit claims that Palm Beach was the only county to list the candidates on two pages of the ballot.

"It is believed that such (a) format had never before been used in a Presidential election and that said format created and contributed to much voter confusion," the lawsuit states. "All 66 other counties in Florida listed all candidates in a straightforward, non-confusing manner."

According to the lawsuit, LePore was at fault because she failed to place Gore's and Lieberman's names in second place, because it appeared that Buchanan's name was in second place on the ballot.

LePore has said the ballot was proper because Gore-Lieberman was placed immediately below Bush-Cheney on the left page.

The law says the rule applies to ballots in which voters use an "X" to choose their candidates. It does not mention ballots that are hole- punched.

The case has been assigned randomly to Circuit Judge Stephen Rapp. Handler said he would request a hearing in the case within the next few days.

Handler said the law also applies to punched ballots. "We think that the law applies to any ballot that's not tabulated on a machine, a machine that self-tabulates," he said.

Another law applies when the county uses "an electronic or electromechanical voting system" with card or paper ballots. That law does not specify the order in which the parties are to be listed. But Handler said that law applies only to voting booths.

LePore said she decided to put the presidential candidates on two pages rather than one so their names could be printed in larger type more easily readable for older voters.

U.S. Rep. Mark Foley, D-West Palm Beach, noted that LePore is an elected Democrat. And while Democrats questioned Buchanan's votes from heavily Democratic enclaves such as the Century Village retirement community in West Palm Beach, Foley noted that his Reform Party rival drew a similar number of votes from the same precincts.

Wexler, though, said the number of votes Buchanan received from some heavily Democratic precincts was "inconceivable."

He also questioned the strong showing in Palm Beach County of Socialist presidential candidate David McReynolds, who was listed just below Buchanan on the right side of the ballot -- in effect to the right of and just below Gore. Of the 535 votes McReynolds received statewide, 302 were from Palm Beach County.

Klein said he and other Democrats had gathered hundreds of written statements from voters who said they were confused by the ballot on Tuesday.

"When it comes down to the fact that this is going to elect a president of the United States, the issue is so important that it needs to be challenged and looked at by a court," Klein said.

"The legal question is, was there statutory compliance in the presentation of the ballot?"

But former Florida Secretary of State Jim Smith, a Republican, said he doubted the questions about Palm Beach County's ballot were serious enough to overturn Tuesday's results.

"Unless they can show fraud or extreme irregularity, I don't think you can have an election thrown out," Smith said.

The county's Republican state Committeeman, Kevin McCarty, said he wasn't surprised that Democrats were planning to challenge the county ballot in court.

"It's to be expected. But I hope Al Gore does the honorable thing like Richard Nixon did -- that he just concedes," said McCarty, referring to Nixon's decision not to contest his narrow 1960 loss to John F. Kennedy.

Staff writers Kathryn Quigley, Mary Ellen Klas, Joel Engelhardt and Marcia Gelbart contributed to this story.

-- What Palm (Beach@is.saying), November 10, 2000.

If I may be so bold, allow me to propose a standardized nationwide ballot (you heard it here first): Send a large book (with pictures) to every registered voter, along with a crayon (nothing sharp!), and let each voter draw a really, really big circle around who they want to win. They can draw fangs and scars and mustaches and goatees on the opponents if they want, but that won't be counted as a vote. Send it back to the nice people at the county courthouse (or have mummy and daddy do it). They get to keep the crayon.

"The Dumbing-Down of America," INDEED!

-- I'm Here, I'm There (I'm Everywhere@so.beware), November 10, 2000.

Doc,

Before you express further anti-Electoral College sentiments, please read the article "Math Against Tyranny" at http://www.avagara.com/e_c/reference/00012001.htm

It presents the most convincing arguments in favor of the Electoral College that I've ever read.

-- No Spam Please (nos_pam_please@hotmail.com), November 10, 2000.

Ain't free speech grand?

It most certainly is.

-- I (h@ve.spoken), November 10, 2000.

No spam,

read it and moved on about half-way. If the EC is so hot, why not run elections WITHIN each state the same way? Why devalue a vote in some lower populated county against one in a highly populated one?

Are your civil rights the same as mine? (Fundamentally and ignoring OJ of course)

So why do you think it ok to value votes differently(assuming you do)? Is not this thinking the main reason the income tax is screwed up? that the tax is not flat-fair etc? Do you see where this type of thinking leads? It is wrong because it is UNBALANCED no matter how well you think the math looks.

Using the sports analogy. The College Footbal Bowl system while romantic, does zero to address who number one is. The Bowl system remains because a FEW do not want the power evenly distributed.

Government wants to impose all sorts of rules on the people and then deny them equal vote,,,it is wrong no matter how you rationalize it. It ain't working and I submit hasn't for probably the last 180 years or so.

Who would one honestly go for a system which says your vote is worth 2/3rds of the guys in Florida? or more correctly, "your vote may vary" depending on many factors. This how the tax code is written and you see the mess that is.

The divisions of power are critical to this Nation. However I think the ultimate power rests with the citizen, the people. Which at this point has been reduced to a circus act which barely half even bother with anymore as it means zilch.

Doing nothing does nothing.

-- Doc Paulie (fannybubbles@usa.net), November 10, 2000.

I Have:

You redneck motherfucker-what a complete asshole you have shown yourself to be-why dont you just leave and go fuck your sister like you always do, and then go down to the local saloon and brag about it with your no-teeth friends-People like you should be strung up by their balls, while 10 "niggers" slap your head around with a baseball bat. I suspect that if you had your way you would hog tie thousands of AMERICANS who happen to be a different color than you so that they could not vote. You are a rascist piece of shit, so take your fucking gun, stick it up your ass, and fire. That is the kind of agaonizing death you deserve.

-- RednecksSuck (go@way.rascist), November 10, 2000.

The word is "agonizing" you punk ass pussy.

-- I (h@ve.spoken), November 10, 2000.

Yowza!!!!!!!!!!

But, back to the topic at hand, they announced on CNN that many people did circle their vote on the WPB ballot.

Should these COUNT????

If so, someone mind telling me what the frigging lil pins to punch the vote in are for? Shit, (slaps forehead hard) I could have used a crayola.

Dumb as Shit, again, Dumb as Shit.

My story, and my final answer.

-- consumer (shh@aol.com), November 10, 2000.

Doc,

If you haven't read the whole article, you haven't seen all of the advantages of the electoral system it sets forth. Please finish reading it.

>If the EC is so hot, why not run elections WITHIN each state the same way?

Well, it might be a good idea to choose governors of the largest, most diverse states by an electoral system. The last part of the article explains why.

>Why devalue a vote in some lower populated county against one in a highly populated one?

Not sure how you mean this question. Generally, the electoral system increases the power of voters in sparsely-populated areas by making candidates pay more attention to them than they would in a popular vote system.

Did you read the part of the article about how the electoral system affects different voting blocs in different areas?

>So why do you think it ok to value votes differently(assuming you do)?

Well, unless you object to the way U.S. Senators are apportioned, you think it's OK too. I think it's okay _within_ the context of a balanced system designed for the long-term overall benefit of the country (or other political entity).

>Is not this thinking the main reason the income tax is screwed up?

No.

>that the tax is not flat-fair etc?

How is a flat tax fair, in relation to the electoral system? (Please define what you mean by "flat" tax.)

>Do you see where this type of thinking leads?

Yeah -- If you don't read the whole article, you won't see the full impact of its reasons for favoring the electoral system.

>It is wrong because it is UNBALANCED no matter how well you think the math looks.

So I presume you favor restructuring the United States so that all states are of equal population and have equal ratios of each of the vaious voting blocs. Right? If not, then you're perpetuating an unbalanced system.

If you'd read the whole article, you'd have seen that one of the reasons the electoral system is better than the popular vote system is that it more balances the interests of diverse voting blocs, and small states versus big states.

>Using the sports analogy.

Oh, goody!! Now we'll look at the way the World Series is scored!

If Series game scores are, say, (team A first, team B second) 7-5, 1-0, 1-6, 3-11, 4-3, 5-10, and 3-2, who wins the Series?

Team B beat team A in total runs, 37 to 24, surely an indicator of superiority, right?

Should it really matter that team A beat team B, 4-3, when we just consider games won or lost?

-- No Spam Please (nos_pam_please@hotmail.com), November 10, 2000.

Ah sumer, I just love it when you talk like that (Yowsa).

-- I (h@ve.spoken), November 10, 2000.