Help! I live in a state full of people who don't have enough common sense to see through Hillary Clinton. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH! I can't stand it! I live in Niagara County among the nation's worst unemployment stats.(The only time they improve is when the next bus departs for Texas with a load of our youth.) To beat that all the incumbants are expected to win in landslides. Good grief what are people here smoking? We reward incompetance with landslide victories? Niagara Falls city taxes are supposed to increase 27% next year. 27% AAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGH! That means they will feel sorry for them here and propose a 20% feel-your-brother's-pain tax! ( I live just outside the city in Wheatfield.) Tell me how green the grass is in your state so I can show my wife that it really is just here.

-- Ed Weaver (edzreal@postmaster.co.uk), November 07, 2000

Answers

Ed, I feeeeeeel your pain. Please don't jump.

On the other hand if Gore wins, could you please tell me exactly where the ledge is and will it support more than one?!?!! God Bless! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), November 07, 2000.

Okay now, just remember all those countries who don't have a choice in their lifetime. Even our worst would be their best.

-- Dee (gdgtur@goes.com), November 07, 2000.

Your winters are too long.Brain freeze.Here,opposite problem-summers are too hot,fried brains. Sorry to report that the grass is pretty brown, or rather cannabis,here.We elect downright crooks ,locally. Oh well ,that's what you get with a one party system.

Former resident of Erie,PA

-- sharon wt (wildflower@ekyol.com), November 07, 2000.

Ed, sorry to say, it's time to get the heck out of Dodge!!! You live in a horrible part of NY, NY is bad elsewhere, but Niagara Falls is really bad!!! You have my deepest sympathies, but seriously consider moving. We live in a rural part of SE Ohio about 40 miles SW of Wheeling, very hilly, wonderful hardwood forests full of deer, turkey, rabbit, grouse, and in the early summer, the wip-or-wills call at dusk, something every one should hear on this earth at least once. Our county has around 12,000 people in it, the aluminum plant hires folks regularly to work, if you are not self employed, we have one the lowest crime rates in the country, in 1994, one of two in the nation, with NO violent crime at all for the year. Our taxes on 104 acres is 310.00 a half, we have no city taxes. People here still wave to each other on the road, on the front porches, where ever you go. We still have a lot of porchsitters, folks who sit outside on their front porches just watching the world pass by, one single car at a time, after supper. The school lets the high school children walk anywhere in town to eat their lunch, and all the grades are in the same school, all ride the same bus to school. We picked here after a long (three years) search for property that covered three states, we moved here from a rural suburb of Cleveland, OH, after we could no longer stand the crime, the hateful neighboors, and the lack of peace and quiet. Here we look at no neighboors, no noise, no city smell, and have no zoning at all, you can build and use an outhouse if you want, or live in a tent, or live in an oversized doghouse if that is your desire. Most of all, some of the cheapest property in the US is to be found here still, there is a 50 acre farm for sale nearby, nice old farmhouse, barns, fencing, lots of pasture, not to far from the county seat, for 75,000. Cheaper land and houses that are in need of a little work are to be found also, some usable land is still around 500 an acre. I don't know if I helped you, or made your problem worse, but things will get better, tomorrow is another day, and a new beginning. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 07, 2000.

Used to live on the ledge (or was it the "edge")..Come on down to Calhoun County Alabama where Independents and Republicans rule, where Judge Roy Moore keeps the ten Commandments in his courtroom, where there are NO zoning laws,where the taxes on an 8 acre piece of beautiful property are $161/year, and if you are on Disability or over the age of 65, you dont even pay those! YEEHAW!! Friendly people who are just now getting used to paying auto insurance (as of June,2000)..have no state inspection for motor vehicles, and a temperature of 74 degrees on November 7th.."Heaven, I'm in Heaven...."

-- lesley (martchas@gateway.net), November 07, 2000.

Lesley in Alabama, you've made a pretty darn good case for life in your neck of the woods. I just have a couple of things to expand on, though, if you don't mind.

First of all, in MY neck of the woods (rural southern California -dirt roads) the zoning laws require that every property be considered agricultural/residential, and that no subdivisions under 10 acres be allowed for any reason. 20+ acres is the norm. Zoning laws are a colossal nuisance when you've purchased a property and are told what you can and cannot do with it. But in southern California these zoning laws are a blessing rather than a curse to those of us who despise endless housing developments.

Like you, we have a nearly year-round growing season. There are some frosts, but they are not sustained, and so we can grow avocados, citrus, winter vegetables, and need only rudimentary animal shelters from the cold. It really is a nearly perfect climate, which of course is why the hordes seem to flock here from all corners of the earth.

What I'm NOT saying is that it's an ideal place to relocate, simply because it's expensive. I wanted to make the point about zoning laws, though.

And for those of you who think southern Cal is just Hollywood -I only know: dirt roads, coyotes, foxes, (rattlesnakes... ahem), mountain lions, horses, cattle, beautiful wildflowers & shrubs, rabbits, snow-capped mountains and wineries. Our place is NE of Temecula.

-- Leslie A. (lesliea@home.com), November 08, 2000.

What you are likely to find is that the more attractive a place is to live, the fewer good jobs there are. When I saw the possibility of early retirement approaching I could have bought anywere. I chose West-central TN and have not regreted it. Some people find it humorous if we get more than about an inch of snow the entire county school system closes since the county owns no road clearing or salting equipment. Property is going up, but no zoning outside cities or their planning areas and fairly low taxes. No state income tax; however, sales tax on about everything else makes up for it. Tennessee is an odd state since it stretches sideways. The eastern third is more Appalachia area oriented. The middle third is Mid-west oriented. The western third is Southern-oriented.

When you have time travel around to look at different areas.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), November 08, 2000.

Ed, as a New Yorker "hate that term" I'm not happy either ! But you could move to ST .Lawence county with me .It's much better here because most people don't know or give a dam about us , and I like it that way .

-- Patty (fodfarms@slic.com), November 08, 2000.

Ed, DON'T JUMP! Hell, that's what they're waiting for. As for the other people in your state, they probably went for a swim in the love canal. Look at the bright side. She's blonde! Richard Miller

-- Richard V Miller (richard.miller@1st.net), November 08, 2000.

Ed, "Senator Hefty Heften", a local radio comedian here in North Alabama said this morning all New Yorkers had Run Hillary Run bumper stickers on their cars. Dems had em on the back , Republicans on the front to give her a sporting chance. Come on down to the sunny south, no Clintons here and the job market here is up, land prices reasonable.

-- Jay Blair in N. Al (jayblair678@yahoo.com), November 08, 2000.

Hi Ed...I feel your pain...I was born and raised in New York on Long Island and last night got a call from my brother-in-law who was practically crying at the advent of Hillary. What a disaster! The voters are just showing that they are not able to be self-sufficient and need the government to take care of them from cradle to grave.

Think about leaving that lousy weather upstate and moving to the beautiful mountains of East Tennessee which reminds me of the Adirondacks. The winters are mild but we do get some snow usually and a few cold days (6 degrees has been our coldest), beautiful Springs and Falls and Summers that are not humid. Land is still pretty reasonable but is rising fast. People are friendly and the politics of this area is extremely conservative. Taxes on our 11 acres with house and barns is $253 per year. You can't beat it. Lots of job opportunities also as it is a growing area. Minimal zoning and no building permits are necessary in our town except for septic installation. Come visit sometime!

-- Mary in East TN (barnwood@preferred.com), November 08, 2000.

Hi

You could consider moving to Georgia where I only pay 223.00 taxes on 32 acres, it was 75 degrees today even with rain and lots and lots of jobs. On the other hand, land in my county is $2500 to $5000 per acre depending on which side of the county you're in, city folks move to the country then complain about the goats and chickens, ...no you might still want to move over to Alabama. Nice folks in Alabama, I get my feed and hay in Alabama, and land is still reasonable there! Ga is getting too much like Atlanta unless you live in the far southern part.

Cindy

-- Cindy Lawson (colawson@mindspring.com), November 08, 2000.

Thanks for the support! In such a politically saavy state,( Let's see... the Republicans control the house, senate and most likely the executive branch as well... so let's elect the queen of the liberal democrats...yeah that will help us get what's good for this state???) Sorry I'm running low on lithium. Where was I ?...Oh yeah, again thank you for the input, it does sound like there are quite a few good deals out there. Sorry southerners, this cranky yankee actually enjoys temps in the twenties. I guess it's a matter of blood thickness. Anyway I live two miles from Love Canal. (Wouldn't give that privilege up for anything.) For those of you who would like an update: They have sold some of the houses that weren't knocked over in the reclaimation process. They have built "luxury" apartments there. They want to rebuild the rest soon. Now if you think that's a hoot,(sorry Hoot), as Paul Harvey would say"...and now the rest of the story. Every time it rains there is the same old sick smell they can't seem to get rid of, and the warning to new area homeowners not to garden just yet. It gets better. Next to Love Canal is Bloody Run Creek (Now a mile and a half from home.) It is another clean up site, though not nationally known. And next to BR Creek is Gratwick Park donated very graciously to the city of North Tonawanda by the local phone company just months prior to an announcement that PCBs were not good for you. Guess what they found there last year? You guessed it. All the PCBs you can eat! MMmm MMmm! So now it is being cleaned up at taxpayer expense, because after all the phone co. is not liable. It's being dumped at a site a quarter mile from my house. Now one mile south of me is the old Roblin steel plant, that my father worked in. It's the site of another toxic waste clean-up. This is the best. The company closed in the mid-eighties and was sold to a group of Japaneese investors. It appears that these "investors" do not, nor ever have existed. They were actors hired for a photo op that have disappeared without a trace. The now, former owners are not responsible, the Japaneese gov't has no records filed with them, so now we get to pay for this one too, as the lands have fallen into the hands of the local gov't. I've had two heart attacks (age 36), my wife has lost an ovary to cancer(now in remission)(age34), several of my classmates are dead from like maladies. They are building houses down the street for a quarter million apiece, is this world crazy? (Before you ask, I can't get my wife to leave the area, but she would consider moving a bit further away[1-5 miles]). Soooooooooo if any of you think you are up to the ultimate homestead challenge...

-- Ed Weaver (edzreal@postmaster.co.uk), November 08, 2000.

I'm not trying to be ugly about it, but down here in Arkansas we are doing a jig that she won. Means they won't be coming back here.

-- melina b. (goatgalmjb1@hotmail.com), November 08, 2000.

Ed, is there a possibility that the pollutants (all the miscellaneous variety of them) have done a number on your wife's brain!?! If I was in you guys place, I'd be out of there if I had to GIVE my house away!! You can always start over from scratch, but NOTHING will give you back your health once it's gone -- just talk to the many people on this forum who suffer from environmental poisoning!!!

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), November 09, 2000.

By the way, you don't mention children -- I hope you aren't trying to raise little ones in that awful place?

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), November 09, 2000.

I had to giggle at the person from Temeculas response. He or she is a true Californian. The government can protect you from those awful neighbors. Extremely thankful to be out of California. It sure is nice to go back to having private property rights. I would rather live next door to a pig farm than not be able to use my land as I see fit. I have been to temecula. Temecula is a nice place as long as your property isn't in a Krat zone, and you have quite a few dollars to pour into the pocket of every beuarocrat in town. I know. My husband and I looked at property there. Heck for the amount of money I could use in California to jump through the hoops to get permission to build, I could construct a twenty foot high fence and matching moat to protect myself from my neighbors.

Here is a wonderful example from one of temeculas neighbors, Gavilan hills(used to live there). When Gavilan hills was established there was also one of those lovely zoning laws added to "protect the residents. The only thing is the developers put a small out clause in the zoning minimum parcel size of 2 1/2 acres. The out clause said that that in order to change the minimum parcel size there would have to be some water retention ponds put in. Well nobody paid attention to this little clause and everyone went on their merry way and bought lots of supposedly "protected" property. The developers however decided to hold onto their rights and now years later are exercising them to build thousands of tract homes. In the process the are also raising Cajalco road and making it into a fourlane freeway that is raised fifteen feet above all the houses in the area. So now not only will the poor people who bought these "protected" homes have lots and lots of new neighbors, but they will also be able to go out into their back yard and gaze at the freeway monstrosity running past there formerly country home. Welcome to California folks! In addition to this wonderful news the poor residents also have now been exposed to radiation when in making this dream all come true the construction company happened upon a newly discover source of Uranium. And what did the company do when they dug up this radioactive material? They promptly put the dirt back into the hole and quietly left with who knows how much radiation now leaking into the neighborhood surrounding it. Keep in mind this is less than an eightth of a mile from a large lake in which the water is sold to LA for drinking. In fact Lake Matthews comes from water that has made its way across the desrt from the mighty Colorado river. Anybody want an LA uranium cocktail? I guess it could explain somethings. I'll tell you give me my property rights any day over that mess.

It never ceases to amaze me how Californians can't see the forest for the trees. That is what happens when property value becomes more important than the land itself. California boosts the value of its property at the expense of poor people and those who want to put a roof over their head. Then they stick those pushed out into government housing projects and complain about the poor. The town we recently lived in on the central coast of California had 24,000 people and property values so high a person making $50,000 a year could barely afford to live there. The current price of an older home on 2 1/2 acres was in the neighborhood of $270,000. This same town recently made a no camping law so that private owners couldn't have anyone stay in a trailer on their property. This made it so that if you wanted to give your elderly mother a little space of her own it was illegal. Can't have those poor old people cluttering up the place. At the California border I shook the dust off my feet, but I still can't shake the sadness from my heart at what the state I was born in has become. I don't think I ever will.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), November 09, 2000.

Ed:

Your situation reminds me of the old story about two construction workers sitting down to eat lunch. One opens his lunch box and say, "D**m it, bologna sandwich again. Every day for 20 years it's a bologna sandwich." Other said, "Well, why don't you tell your wife to make a different lunch for you?" First one said, "Oh, I make my own lunch."

Basically, if you ain't willing to move, don't ask us to advice on where to do so.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), November 09, 2000.

Seems to me after looking at some of the posts out here the last two days, that it makes sense to consider Doreen's idea to have everyone who thinks similarly to move to one state and deal with the issues there...I think it was suggested to be Texas for a lot of folks who post here. Maybe folks could get a co-op going and get deals on U- hauls, etc. to move there. Buy up the King Ranch, and split it up...

You could have a lot of electoral votes, not have to vote for Hillary Clinton (or consider it, at least until she runs for Prez), etc.

Oregon could do the same and have Ralph Nader as governor. Then the folks there wouldn't have to step all over the Dems votes in the next Prez. election...they could just enjoy life as a Green in a Green state. etc...

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 09, 2000.

Ken, please reread original post's last line. The idea was to begin gathering stuff to present my case for moving. Actually it is a case in progress, and I'm making progress. By the way, if you're offended, why respond at all?

-- Edward G. Weaver (edzreal@postmaster.co.uk), November 10, 2000.

Your update to the post sure gave me the impression your were living among toxic waste sites, are experiencing health problems probably as a result and might be willing to move a mile or so away from where you are now. To quote a line from a Harry Chapin song, "Anywhere is a better place to be."

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), November 11, 2000.

I agree, but I wish decisions were all cut and dry. If we had children I'm sure we would be gone by now. It's also a matter of the slow boiling frog. (Good analogy for this swampy area.) One cannot exactly equate our ill health directly to the toxins buried on three sides of us. (Though I'm convinced there is something to it.) I proposed to my wife on one of those sites. It was a park then, on the Niagara River. Her parents live close by along with a bunch of both our families. Roots go deep, and I've come to conclude for women that means alot. I also appreciate roots after being a nomad for the early part of my adult life. (I left and lived in Germany four years and Maryland five years.) Coming back to this area after I said 'goodbye forever' did remind me that along with the garbage I left behind, I left behind a part of me. It was a toxic waste dump and politics are corrupt here, but it was my toxic waste dump. I am now ready to leave again, but not to bolt out like I did last time, because I couldn't find a high paying job. That kind of thinking keeps you running for one reason or another ie, my other two moves. My wife and I get along famously, and I wish to respect her thoughts on this, no matter how irrational they appear to me. On the other hand you are absolutely right Ken, anywhere, even a couple of miles up the road might be better. That's what I'm aiming for. So tell me how green the grass is at your place Ken, I will add it to my case for moving.

-- Ed Weaver (edzreal@postmaster.co.uk), November 11, 2000.

Ken-gotta stand beside Edward on this one.I thought your posting a little off target and maybe a tad harsh.But we all have bad days.Although there's been an exceptional ammt of agression chasing after me,lately.Read my bad moon arisin'post and tell me what you think.

Edward,good for you for standing up for yourself.I don't have roots tying me to one place,either, bc I too moved all over the place.But Mother does,has lived on the same patch of earth for 3/4 of a century.Talk abt roots.And I respect her choice to feel that way. I guess I'd be subhuman if I didn't.

-- sharon wt (wildflower@ekyol.com), November 11, 2000.

Hi Ed, Annie in SE OH again, just a little note for support. We moved 140 miles from our parents and family in one direction, and 150 miles from family in another direction. It is a drive of 2 1/2 hours to visit either, not bothersome to either of us as I was used to 1 hour one way commutes to work, and husband is a long haul truck driver, anything under 500 miles is a piece of cake! My parents visit frequently, it is a refuge for them as they live in a suburb of Cleveland, and both grew up in rural Western Maryland on farms. Our place is big enough that we would be able to set up family in a separate household of their own, if the condition arises that we need to help care for them. It took great courage to move from the area we both grew up in and have family, but the positives greatly surpass the drawbacks involved. However, my mother still calls almost daily to "check up on me", to see if I'm alright, especailly if my husband is out on the road, as he can be gone for up to two weeks at a time. Now if I only could convince her to use a computer(my computer geek brother has been trying to get them cyber for years), we could communicate much cheaper! May you both find the courage you need to follow your dreams, Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 12, 2000.

Ed:

What is heaven for me, may be hell for you. I had the opportunity to take early retirement at age 47 with a pretty decent retirement income and full federal health benefit. Wonderful area to live in if you don't need a high paying job. Otherwise, one is looking at an hour and a half, one-way commune to Nashville.

I live about two miles away from Waverly. Have had a number of people comment on how quiet it is here. Minimum amount of crime and, in fact, I don't take the keys out of my vehicles nor do I lock the mobile home unless I will be gone for several days.

No state income tax, but sales tax on everything else pretty well makes up the difference. My farm is zoned agricultural, so my property taxes are about $2.50 per acre per year. No zoning outside towns or their planning area. Decent school system. Summers are not all that hot, but are humid. Winters are fairly mild, and we do get the four seasons. Couldn't ask for nicer neighbors.

May not make a difference, but almost no mosquitoes!!!

There is something to be said about living just far enough away from relatives to where you are not expected to visit all that often, but are still close enough for the occasional one.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), November 13, 2000.

Don't Jump Try looking up properties on the net. I found 5.5 acres in Lemmons South Dakota with a 3 bedroom house for $40,700.

There is always an alternative. (I hope)

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), November 14, 2000.

Sorry to hear your area is so bad. I'll tell you a little about Northern Maine. Quiet, peaceful, 4 seasons. Although some years summer thinks its still spring and fal hides until next year. But mostly theres 4 seasons. Plenty of land and houses for sale. Some parts of Atoostook County have good job aspects some not. Just need to look around. It also helps if you know what you want for a job. If your moving to the outskirts of the towns in this county then you don't have to worry about building codes, or noise control. We've lived here all our lives, thought I wanted to move so took a trip down south as far as Virginia then came back. Nice place to visit but I prefer Northern Maine. If you like snow, we get snow! Mostly the best part about this area is people are friendly. That means a lot to us. Good Luck!

-- michelle heath (dickfogg@ainop.com), November 18, 2000.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH! She got elected. JUMP JUMP!! Take me with you!

-- Tom Baker (mrdizave@yahoo.com), December 24, 2001.