I have heard a lot of talk on small government, but no one has said what services they are willing to give up. What are you willing to give up to have a smaller government and what do you believe the results would be on the Nation. Try this: The US postal service. Results: Higher prices for delivery and maybe mail once a week. This would be due to lack of competition once they are gone. Get the idea? Now let's hear from you.

-- Nick (wildheart@ekyol.com), November 04, 2000

Answers

Actually, the postal service could be a self-sufficient entity IF they did not have to distribute duck stamps, draft card applications, social security applications, distribute food stamps, etc. My dad worked for the post office for 30 years. He said almost 1/2 of the time was spent doing non-mail related things.

I personally would be quite happy to give up handing out foreign aid to every other country in the world. And give up buying $650 toilet seats, etc. If the government were run more efficiently and were not trying to micromanage each and every one of us, we could still have most of the true services, but without the extreme rate of taxation and manipulation.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), November 04, 2000.

I would be happy to give up Social Security, Medicare, Head Start, Federal Highway "Grants", GSL's, The NEA, The DEA, FBI, IRS, BATF, CIA, OSHA, EPA, WHO,FCC, just about everything that we have become so accustomed to rolling over for. The Post Office was privatized in 1974, BTW. That is a Constitutionally provided for "institution". Essentially all the Federal Government should do is protect our borders, make trade agreements, deliver the mail, and stay the heck out of our lives.

Let us take responsibility for our economic and physical well being. Granted, we haven't had the chance to really do that since 1933, but I am willing to give it a try. How 'bout you?

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 04, 2000.

Actually, I don't think we would be forced to give up any services IF the government used the tax dollars they collect for their original intention instead of fueling their beauracratic pet projects! I've covered government for nearly 21 years so that's one reason I say that!

Also, people could quit taking advantage of the services that are provided. When I was little, if I had a bloody nose or a cut finger, my mama simple took care of it. Since I listen to the police/rescue scanner 24 hours a day as part of my reporter job, I hear people calling 911 and getting rescue to come out for all kinds of things they could handle themselves, from normal-type nosebleeds to all kinds of things...

One government service we could do without would be all the money spent on "the war on drugs." Also those with misdemeanor and non-violent drug crimes should be let out of our jails and prisons. Then we wouldn't need to be building more and we'd have plenty of room for the hard core criminals.

Less government could also be defined as "more efficient" govt.

It's gotten to the point where we have laws in some places on how high we can keep our grass, how many trees we can or cannot plant, how many animals we can have, if any, and so forth. Then we have to pay for "government services,." people to enforce all those stupid laws.

If people want to live in gated communities on land that has restrictions that should be their right too but they should pay for guards, etc to enforce them. The rest of us who want to live out in the country could watch out for ourselves! If you don't want to smell animals, don't live in the country! That kind of thing!

Also some of our roads have been repaved this year with asphalt as much as ten inches in places...and I'm talking some of the rural country roads. Not high traffic areas. And we still have dirt roads with not even tar and gravel...So they could do away with the road programs in most places and maybe just keep up the interstates or something. That's a radical idea but I'm so tired of seeing them wasting money and then not doing what they're supposed to!

The less government the better.

-- Suzy in 'Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), November 04, 2000.

Why decide which ones. They decide for themselves. Was there any vote when the Social Security trust fund was absorbed to "balance the budget"? Large or small really isn't the issue, government controllable by the constituent body is what is important.

-- Jay Blair (jayblair678@yahoo.com), November 04, 2000.

Ditto exactly what Doreen said!!! Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 04, 2000.

Oops, hit the submit button too soon! I believe that 95% of what is now under Federal control should be controlled by the individual states, where we as voters have better control over what happens. Also, if what one state does really irks you, you can move to one that better suits you. I think this would better represent us a a true Republic. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 04, 2000.

I'm impressed by what some of you are willing to do without. But on some of the suggestions I'm afraid we were there before. Remember the good old days when squatters were shot or Native Americans were almost wiped out, or the old race laws and of course the rights of the companies over the little man. The average person had no civil rights or legal recourse and women were even worse off. That came from non-government intervention. Also we would be 50 seperate countries by now. But on the services, so far just the tip of the iceberg has been touched. Any one care to suggest what would happen if your ideas were put into effect.

-- Nick (wildheart@ekyol.com), November 04, 2000.

I'd like to see welfare done away with, or at the very least, drastically changed. If we made families responsible for the upkeep of their children having children, I doubt we'd have so many teenage pregnancies. It's obviously something that could not be changed overnight, and some changes have already been made, thankfully. IMO, it is too easily available for too many people. Amber

-- Amber (mikeandamberq@hotmail.com), November 04, 2000.

Nick, the federal governmeent has more culpability in almost wiping out the Native Americans than the settlers. Government intervention, or law enforcement via prosecution and execution of justice when applied through a jury of peers without judges interpreting the laws for the jury?

I am a strong advocate of local control. That way everyone is looking each other in the eye almost daily and blame for misconduct stays at home and isn't foisted off to some far away place that has no idea why Mr. Johnson decided to go over to Mr.Jones' and knock the snot out of him. I believe that when things are localized and privatized the people are much more in charge than the far away elected officials. Responsibility is much more likely to be met, and help is much more likely to be given to those in need without the web of bureaucracy.

For all the things I would like to do without, I believe the consequences would be more freedom and more responsibility and awareness of repercussions for all. We'd be more free. That doesn't scare me. Also, I believe that people would start to feel more generous when it came to people with problems that need to be helped. It would stop the apathy because folks would realize that they just might need help one day too and provide for that possibility with action instead of taxes.

I forgot to mention that I could also do without FEMA, the NSA,the BLM, the Forestry Service, and the Federal Reserve, which isn't federal and doesn't have any reserves. On the other hand, I would like to keep the Armed Forces under US command, the USGS, and the National Weather Advisory.

Thanks for this question! It's fun annihilating all of this stuff in my mind!

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 04, 2000.

In all honesty, there isn't much that is legitimately the responsibility of the federal government. They have taken over a lot of things that should be the responsibility of the states, the local governments, the churches, the family, and the individual. When we give up the "burden" of our responsibilities, we also give up a lot of our rights and freedoms -- and rightly so. Not that I want to lose my rights and freedoms, but with them must come responsibility. The question is, if we can get the government to give up the things it has taken on that don't belong to it, are we willing to take up the slack, and bear our share of the burden?!? Consider how nearly we resemble ancient Rome in the years preceding their fall! It's not a comfortable thought.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), November 04, 2000.

Well....I would like to stop paying for services I don't use. Federal and local level. I think raods, snow removal, fire (of course ours is volunterr anyway) and reasonable police protection as well as the postal service are necessary. I hate to say it, but my pet peeve is the fact that 60% of my property taxes go to fund a school district I will never use and don't approve of. My neighbor with 6 children in the system pays no more.

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), November 04, 2000.

I think that the sevices we should have should be the ones that the constitution gives to the federal government and the ones that the other governments want to provide. I think that the only real way we should determine what services are available is if it is in the constitution given to the federal government fine if not it belongs to the states. If the feds are convinced we just can't make it without them then they should pass an amendment so it would be legal for them to provide it if it passes congress and the 75% of the states ratify it then fine if not then they need to get out of it. The laws need to be obeyed by all and that means the government needs to obey the law too. gail

-- gail missouri ozarks (gef123@hotmail.com), November 05, 2000.

I agree with Dianne about the property tax. 2/3's of ours go to the school system too. We have never used the school system here. I homeschooled my son and then paid $90.00 a month for Christian High School at a Christian Academy. I don't believe in the school system and do not like giving it my money. All the renters in town and thousands from Fort Knox who rent pay nothing towards the schools they use. All the farmers out here pay, even though their kids have been grown for years. Whoever sends their kid to public school should pay their part and leave us out of it.

-- Cindy in Ky (solidrockranch@msn.com), November 05, 2000.

no food no lights no moter cars not a single luxury. we have no use for any of them. i agree with my husband that everything the government does it does wrong. we never needed them and never will. they are useless and topay government is like taking yourmoney and burning it. same result. smoke. becky

-- becky (Joel681@webtv.net), November 05, 2000.

The postal service is not privatized.Employees gets paided by the federal gov,have a fed pension, and fed health care benefits.How do you figure it's private?

Some of you have missed the point.The question is What would YOU personally give up or have given up, not what you want OTHERS to give up.

I personally would give up daily mail as once a week is abt all I check my PO box anyway.Ditto for interstate highway systems,even though I currently use them to travel back home.I would prefer a good passenger train system

Even tho I currently use them from time to time,Get ride of the fed money for airports,and air traffic controllers as well,Make them fly or crash on their own.I'm sure there are others but my brain refuses to think that hard today

Finally,local government has been BY FAR the most corrupt entity that I have run into, bar none, and I've lived in 3 states and some thing like 8 different counties so far.Very little oversight.So I don't buy that they are "more for the people" Maybe for their relatives and themselves,yeah,if you happen to be one of them. If you have moved in or aren't from the "right" family, and don't have that power base, you don't exist.And how many of us on this forum fill the "right family" catagory? I talk to locals that feel exactly the same way.

Looks good on paper but doesn't work well in practice.Terrible abuse of power and misuse of taxpayer money.

-- sharon wt (wildflower@ekyol.com), November 05, 2000.

I agree with Green and Doreen!

-- Phyllis (almostafarm@yahoo.com), November 05, 2000.

You people who say you never "use" the school system where you live are very short-sighted. You benefit from it every day. You're like those visitors who come up here to Washington from Oregon and balk at paying our sales tax because they don't live here. They use our roads, have police and fire dept protection if & when they need it. Without a public health dept, conditions for everyone would be much worse. And most particularly, we all benefit from an educated populace. Do you really want to go back to the conditions of, say, 19th century England where only those who could afford school fees could educate their children, leaving the vast majority to continue in illiteracy & be unable to better their situations, and leaving the rich all access to power and resources? Do you really want to have more illiterate, unemployable people running around unable to get a decent job to support themselves, unable to see their way out of the rut they were born into, thereby turning to drugs and crime as the only solution? If you then counter by saying that the schools don't teach what you think they should or as well as they ought, then it behooves you to contribute the necessary, otherwise you doom your neighbors' children. We're all in this together.

-- snoozy (allen@oz.net), November 05, 2000.

Snoozy, I agree and disagree with you simultaneously. School systems spend the majority of their bugets and things that do not touch the classroom. That is bureaucracy in action. Takes more to have people push the papers around than it does to educate the kids. Sorry, but I see no way that federal Government has benefitted anyones education. They have made more socialist inroads through all of their programs and haven't turned out better educated children. The result of these programs are that many parents don't even fix their kids breakfast, but let them eat it at school, as well as lunch. This seems odd but think about it for a minute, all of this shifting of responsibility from the parent to thhe school system creates a bunch of children who grow up thinking the state cares more for them than their parents. In some cases, that may be the case, but it sure isn't in most cases.

As for sales taxes, I have no problem with them at all. Sales tax stays in the state and is more easily controlled by the people than Federal taxes which go to the "far away" place.

As for public health...are you talking about sanitation only? or the entire gamut of medicare, medicaid, ad nauseum? Regarding sewage, I do believe there need to be laws regarding that as it is in the best interest of literally everyone to have the wastes properly taken care of, but I also believe that different geology and demographic distributions require different applications and that it should be controlled locally not by federal edict. But I don't know that it is controlled on a federal level at all. I'm a big fan of sanitation and honestly believe that cleanliness has been the largest medical advancement that's been made.

As for local corruption, it certainly exists, but might I suggest that if people were not so distracted by all of the federalisms and knew that things on a local level were to advance no further than the state level they would tend to feel their actions would be more effectual and might not be as apathetic as most are now. Perhaps if they stopped pumping fluoride into the water it would help folks think a little better as well.

Now as for the post office, I can't sit here all day and chase down all of this information that I have been digesting for years and try to get it all to you. Just try to check into it yourself....I didn't say it was PRIVATE I said it was PRIVATIZED. That means that they have to come in on their own budget and don't get federal money from taxes to make up for their bottom line problems. Remember all of these postal increases? That's one of the reasons. Because they still have to perform all of those extraneous duties to the feds and deliver the mail as well.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 05, 2000.

I have a hard time justifying the money spent on the public schools, not because we don't use them (though we didn't, as we homeschooled and then the girls were in a Christian school) but because they are part of the problem, not the solution. They are graduating a high percentage of illiterates, which pretty effectively does away with the only possible arguement in favor of their continued existence. But the worst of it is that the education establishment (and I know there are individuals who are exceptions, but we are talking about the ed. establishment as a whole here) has as their stated goal to reshape America in the image they think fit -- NOT to educate your children. I've said this before, and I'm going to say it again, the educational standards in the public schools are pitiful. And more money is NOT going to solve anything. It isn't money that's the problem, it's the philosophy underlying the system. Children do not go to the public schools for an education anymore -- some may get an education, but it is in spite of the system, not because of it. They go to school to be *socialized*, i.e. brainwashed, into one-worldism, environmentalism, paganism, socialism, etc., etc. The stated goal of the education establishment is to have *control* of all children from birth to adulthood -- and as much longer than that as they can manage. They haven't quite gotten there yet, but with three-year- olds in Head Start and pre-school programs, they've gotten pretty close. They've been working on all this for long enough that you can see the results (all bad) throughout our society today. Now, understand, I'm not necessarily blaming individual teachers for all this, as they don't determine how they will spend their day, nor do they determine the curriculum they use. But insofar as they -- and we -- do nothing to stop it, we are culpable.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), November 05, 2000.

Very well said, Kathleen.

I just wanted to say that I am trying hard to find the info on the post office that I was talking about. You're right, I should be able to provide back up for stuff when I say it. It's just that it gets difficult to recall exactly where the info came from and whose book or books the info is from and upon looking for this info I realized that I am missing no less than 30 books on governmental topics! So I just wanted to apologize and say I will do my best to find out for you. But it might take longer than this threads lifetime.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 05, 2000.

New Highways I can live without. Limited postal service I could cope with. No government farming subsidies would be grand. No corporate 'welfare' or tax advantages for percieved economic benefits to the depressed area they are supposedly there to help. I could do without social security, and social security numbers, if given some time to prepare for it.

I won't give up public schools or public libraries.

-- Anne (HT@HM.com), November 05, 2000.

Thanks for your input Anne .I wanted people to explore how they are currently benefiting from fed, programs.and tell me what they will do without.You did.

I don't think people realize how much with in their extended family and community is paid for with fed dollars.

Here are some recent local examples.Dump cleanups,bc local gov. won't be bothered. Tobacco disaster loss money. Grazing land cost shares and loss payments.Approx. 50% of pop on welfare,another 30%? on social security or ssi. Money for individuals putting in septic systems to eliminate straight line pipes,again bc local gov. hasn't addressed it.Are some of these good programs?

Doreen -concerning privatization,we have different definitions.To me, it is a private business taking over the operation of a government service.Required DUI Classes, here for instance used to be state provided,and are now private counciling services provided.That's privitazation under my definition.

The post office is not run by a private industry. It has a self generated operating budget for expenses,as do some other revenue producing agencies.However this budget does not cover all their costs,such as new buildings( and we had a new one put in last year) or gov. retirement contributions or possible health benifits, for example.So they are still using a part of the federal budget. We could nitpick on this for eternity, but it gets away from the original question about what you will give up.For instance, do you have elderly parents- If so, is it OK to take their social security & medicare? How abt a handicapped child?Have one of those receiving any assistance or training-under a mostly fed funded program? If you feel as strongly as you profess, then you need to be willing to take you mouth out of the trough as well, and not just want to take away from others. I don't disagree with alot of the suggestions on programs to dump, I just like to see people eager to tighten their own belt when they are up at the pulpit preaching doing without. maybe you do.

Finally,I have to speak up on the "apathy "issue,concerning local corruption.

I don't find that very often.Fear yes.If you whistleblow, then you get your house burned down while your still in it,that's not apathy,that is instilled fear.This happened here abt a month ago.If a decent person does runs for office, they get threatened with being killed. Then when they run anyway and win, the daughter's house with her & her three kids in it gets torched,late election night after the results were obvious. This also happened,the daughter is a very good friend and I had information in person from her.Don't you have these things going on with your local politics,or are you naive to them? Frustration, definitely,but apathy,no. This is why I say local gov. is far worse.They get away with an unbelievable ammount.

I think fed bashing is a convient scapegoat for some.My world just isn't that black & white. Is yours?

Boy I can see how this arguing gets started! I usually avoid these discussions bc I'm not particularly argumentive,but sometimes one feels a reply becomes necessary.

-- sharon wt (wildflower@ekyol.com), November 05, 2000.

I think what would be nice and helpfull to the US would be if all the programs (gov stuff) would go back to their origanall intent. The basic idea was probablly good but abused or got out of hand. I would like to have it where you buy what services you want. If I didn't have to pay for the stuff I didn't want I could afford the stuff I did or thought that I or my family needed. I could give up social security,HMO,foreign aid,easily half of the laws in the books, sports (especially high school).

-- Tom (Calfarm@msn.com), November 05, 2000.

I ditto Doreen. I also think the government has no business using tax payer dollars to push immunizations on us.

-- andrea smith (a-smith@mindspring.com), November 06, 2000.

Well, let's see! I'm not as versed as some of you, but I believe that most of us could manage to take care of our own elderly, hadicapped, and needy relatives if we didn't have to pay so many federal taxes. We can do this! We dont need them. But the truth is that most people dont believe they can or dont want to. Are they brainwashed or just dont want to make an effort? Maybe it's just fear of change. Most of the people I talk to about these things just smile and nod politely, but I can tell they dont really agree. So I guess I could do without SS, SSI, medicare, medicaid, and the public school system. I say the schools because we are more than capable of educating our own, even the ones that say they dont have the patience, just couldn't, or just dont know what they would do if they had to spend all that time with their own children. And if someone truly couldn't (sickness etc.), dont you think people could pool together for some of these purposes? I would certainly help! I think you feel more motivated when you know the face of the person who needs assistance. I think there would be alot more women willing to stay at home and do these things if they didn't feel the pressure to get out and work.

I could do just fine with mail once a week too! There is just so much waste. I think we could just about do it all ourselves better if given the opportunity and more people would just believe in themselves and their neighbor.

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), November 06, 2000.

Seems odd that one of the few federally related programs that work fairly well is mentioned so much in this discussion. At 33 cents, it's still a bargain. And the USPS does carry the majority of it's expenses as a fee for service provider, doesn't it? Like I need to ask, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. John

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), November 06, 2000.

Sharon, where do you live? As much as I pitch and moan about government, and including the local school bureaucracy, we do NOT have retaliation for running against the powers that be. Perhaps that is because everyone here is armed to the teeth. I don't know. Perhaps we just haven't sunk quite that deep into the slime. Anyway, anyone who wants to run does. We have blacks and whites on the ticket, and blacks vote for whites, and whites vote for blacks, and sometimes the most qualified person even wins. Sometimes not. Sometimes it is just a popularity contest. But no fear at any rate.

As for the post office, it is privatized. That does mean they have to make and "stay" within their own budget. Last year they made a profit. Some of the new post offices are paid for with the postal budget while others are built to the post office's specifications and leased by the post office from private owners. Yes, the checks are still federal. Yes, the .33 is a bargain compared to lots of other things, but it still hurts my feelings when it is time to send out Christmas cards!! LOL

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), November 06, 2000.

Yes John, it is one of the very few that works pretty well, and it is paid for by user fees which is part of the point I was trying to make...is there any other fed program that is paid for by user fees? I have a request in with the Fed Research division of the Library of Congress to find the info I was talking about earlier.

Sharon, what a absolutely horrific place you must live in! No, around here there is more than ample nepotism and certainly a "ruling" class if you will, but there hasn't been anything like you talked about. Incidences like that fall under the responsibility of the militia. The militias have been demonized, by the feds and the fed contolled media, but those kinds of actions are exactly why the founding fathers were so clear about the people being the militia. It also falls under consent of the governed. Free people have nothing to fear.

I don't think the Feds are a convenient scapegoat. I think the people of this country are the problem and that's why the Feds get away with what they do. If people allow such things to go on unchecked because, "hey, it wasn't my house that got burned down" then they are in essence giving their approval of these types of actions.

My world isn't all black and white, but I suspect that I have a lot less grey than most folks. I'm sorry if that is offensive, but it seems that all the grey just makes every action so dependent upon the "intent" or the terrible past, or society at large, that it comes down to nothingness and no right or wrong. Maybe I am not seeing what you said correctly, but relativism is to me the ultimate representation of "grey" and it certainly blocks a persons ability to judge. Please correct me if I am wrong in how I interpret what you said there.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 06, 2000.

I've already proven I'm willing to give up welfare, college scholarship, WIC, etc. I still qualify for these programs, but I choose to make due with less rather than take from others or give up so much privacy. Giving up public roads wouldn't bother me, I walk to the local store and the only reason I regularly use the highway is to get to the homeschool association meeting, which I wouldn't need to do if the government didn't require me to meet with them 4X a year. I could live with irregular mail, especially with email now:) Federal research and approval on drugs, etc is nonsense because it gives false security-drugs are recalled all the time. I think social security, welfare, nursing homes,etc have contributed to the downfall of families. I am homeschooling my kids, so I would readily give up public schools. As for other's children: I help neighborhood kids with their schoolwork, homeschoolers pool together, churches have educational programs, and there are many other ways to get an education. Government registered religion is obscene, in my opinion. There's a whole lot of paperwork we could do without. Our state already decided it could do without government funding when they legalized marijuana despite federal government's threat to withdraw funding. Laws and regulations don't make good citizens, the bad ones find ways around the government anyways. I got a phone call from a MADD representative who told me that they have helped to pass over 25,000 laws throughtout the states. He told me we need more laws because every so many seconds someone is injured by a drunk driver. My reply was, gee, with all those laws, there are still drunk drivers, I quess laws aren't the answer. Maybe if the government wasn't taking such good care of the roads, people would stay home:) There is so much we don't need the government to continue doing, people have written whole books on. Grants for art? We need to pay people to do art? How did Mozart do it?

-- Epona (crystalepona2000@yahoo.com), November 06, 2000.

I've been reading this and trying to think of what I would give up -- finally decided it would be easier to say what I *wouldn't* give up! I wouldn't give up having one currency for the whole country. I wouldn't give up having at least sufficient military might to prevent other countries from aggression -- but the military might ought to be concentrated in the citizen militia. Local government is responsible for the police that maintain internal order, so that doesn't fall under this thread, anyway. I think interstate commerce is important, unless we really do want to be divided into a bunch of little countries, probably all at odds with one another. I would GLADLY give up my handicapped daughter's SSI check -- the only reason we haven't given it up is because the last time I did, and then got it back because I thought she and I were going to be on our own and I didn't have sufficient income to support us, I was told that stopping her SSI was detrimental to her well-being (this by the SSI person) and that if I did that again, they would appoint a trustee, and possibly try to take her away from me. However, I'm getting savings built up in her account, and when it reaches a certain amount, they will automatically stop her checks. I'm still trying to think of government functions we couldn't do without -- not coming up with very many, to be honest. Of course, they may have things going on that I'm not really aware of, but even if the roads were taken care of by state and local governments, as many roads still are, and the electricity and phone companies lost any support they may be getting, we wouldn't be hurt much. I really do believe that the whole country would be better off if families educated their own children, rather than the government doing it, and the families would be MUCH better off, but even if we kept the public schools, they don't need federal money. I mentioned above that the problems they have are NOT due to lack of money -- home-schoolers do a much better job on far less money, and so do many private schools. Yes, the children need to be educated, for all our benefit, but that's not quite what's happening at the public schools, and there are much better ways of accomplishing what needs to be done. I'm not coming up with much else that I feel I need to keep of the services provided by the federal government. But re: the USPS, why would we have higher prices if we gave it up? There are already several private mail/parcel carriers in operation. Parcel shipping prices are actually lower, usually, through UPS.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), November 06, 2000.

I'm not saying that public schools are the answer, BUT our children are the future of our country. Even tho I could educate my children to an acceptable level, there are MANY adults w/children that I would shudder to think about the lack of education in that home. AND what about those of us who are STUCK with both parents working and no end in site?

I think that if you put people who have had to live with nothing and make due with what they had, in the position of allocating the US Budget then there would be a great surplus and taxes would not be that great.

-- Kellie (kashaa@ipa.net), November 06, 2000.

Kellie, if we didn't have to pay so much in taxes to support so many things we could do ourselves then it would be easier for one parent to stay home. You do raise a good point about the kids whose parents wouldn't teach their children. Anyone have a response to that?

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), November 06, 2000.

Most states already have testing in place for home-schooled children. Given the good quality of available curriculums, some requiring very little input from the parents (not the best way to educate children, but still better than the historically inaccurate PC swill being served at the public schools) there would be very little excuse for anyone not being able to do a better job of educating their children than the public schools are doing now. For those who really truly CAN'T, not just won't, there are tutors, home- school groups that help each other out, and private schools. New England, two hundred years ago, had nearly a 100% literacy rate (far better than we can claim now) with no public schools. If a child's family couldn't teach them themselves or afford to pay for a school or a tutor, the town had vouchers to get the children of the poor into school -- usually being taught by a pastor, but not always. You know, back when public schools started to come into being, there was a big outcry, as people were wise enough to foresee some of the consequences. (Our ancestors were not stupid, nor were they poorly educated.) If they could see just exactly how bad it has gotten, they would weep bitterly.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), November 06, 2000.

Epona, Mozart did it by royal patronage -- in essence, government grants.

-- snoozy (allen@oz.net), November 06, 2000.

As much as I dislike the local school system (all they really care about is how far they can go in the football playoffs), I honestly don't know how folks that can't read will be able to educate their own children, they also wouldn't let anyone else do it for them either, after all, they figure if they got by without being able to read, so can little Johnny and Susie. We live in an economically/educationally depressed area, if we didn't have some basic public school system in effect, it would be like "Deliverance" around here! However, unlike where Sharon lives, you are encouraged, and even respected, to run for public office. Local, and even State, elected officials try very hard to listen to their voters that put them in office, knowing full well they will be ousted if they don't. We have a very high rate of voter turn-out per capita in our county, I guess they might not be able to read well, but they sure do vote! Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 06, 2000.

I could really do without Political Action Committees, elections that go on for years, and populations that make their selections based on whatever teevee, internet chat, or their favorite stars tell them. Sheesh. I guess that would mean some kind of national referendum, since our politicians are so loathe to effectively address the PAC or election duration stuff (except for third party candidates, it would seem.) Next, I guess that would mean having a voting populace that could follow logic. Not sure how to address that. Perhaps mandatory logic classes in grade school (actually, computer science and the opportunity to make $$ might lead kids into following a logical sequence of thought...can't program without knowing how!). The internet, teevee and star stuff I don't know...but I wish they would stop calling me at home and leaving me messages!! Ah, November 8th.....

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 06, 2000.

Just to clarify.....internet "chat" is when a candidate, star, supporter, whatever, schedules time for their p.r. stuff, supposedly "interactively," as opposed to forum participation where there is no preconceived agenda and there is a free for all of opinion!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 06, 2000.

Whew, what a long post! Great answers. The USPO would be much more efficent if they would dump the junk. As for public assistance, or welfare-one of my former co-workers was determined to end 3 generations of welfare in her family, she tried the welfare to work program and was called at work and away from work for so many 'mandatory' meetings, check in's, and orientations-that she was fired for personal calls and missing so much work! DUH! She cried foul, gave up and now stays home collecting twice what she made while 'working' What an incentive!

-- Kathy (catfish@bestweb.net), November 06, 2000.

Doreen I find us in agreement on a number of things.People are ultimately responsible for what they do or don't do.Making excuses for poor behavior is not what I mean when I say shades of grey.I hated when I'd run into a parent that would do that,and there are plenty out there.

Shades of grey-let's see,how about some rightous indignation tempered with logic,& hopefully life's wisdom ,to which a little dash of self- depricating humor has been added? maybe trying to truely see more than one side of the story,then make informed decisions on what side you'll stand on, and thinking for yourself.Is that too vague?

As far as posting on being armed,if you are armed to the teeth we here are armed to the eyeballs!We all pack heat. We have to. I remember walking into a retired teachers' house and noting the six shooter on the TV, within handy reach,just in case. Nurses at work carry weapons in their purse,in case a druggie tries to rob them

Where Do I live-in a very rural part of a southeastern state.Mark Twain said he hoped when he died ,he was in(fill in the blank) bc we are always 30 years behind the times.The way alot of us think we want to live.May want to rethink how good the good old days really were!And how great local political control is.

The relief we get is every 20 years or so it gets so bad,when dead bodies start showing up, that the FBI comes in and throws a bunch of the political crooks in jail.Some see fbi as the enemy,here, I see them as our last hope.We are overdue for another enema.

Eventually we will catch up with the rest of you, by that time your place will prob be a poophole and we will be paradise.Patience is mine!

Alot of my info, esp abt the house burning reason,is not known to most people here,since they don't know abt. the whistle blowing.,so maybe these things do go on in your area & you just don't know about it?

This area is like this bc it is a one party system,with little diversity,and sudsequently,little openmindedness.You would prob not be liked.The Family trees have few branches.

The purpose of education is to fill an empty mind with an open mind....of course,if it is too open,your brains fall out.(o:

-- sharon wt (wildflower@ekyol.com), November 08, 2000.

I would like to add a few comments to this post, first let me say the government is not at fault, we the people are for where we are today, the existence of government does not necessarily provide it with authority, its authority comes from free people who rely on it to preserve their directed liberties. If people were to exercise their liberty properly, then the government would not need to become an inconvenience in the lives of its citizens. "The free person is the responsible person". As too what we would give up and states having there own say and such it would not work, thats why the Constitution came into being. After the Revolution the 13 sovereign American governments underwent a collapse of giant proportions,after 1783 and England pulling stakes the American states slid into a period of disruption bordering on anarchy. New York & New Jersey virtually shot it out in the harbor over the right to tax incoming ships. Pennsylvania and N.J. could never agree on a border. The value of a citizen's currency would shrink 10% when they crossed a state line,somebody leaving New Hampshire with $100 would have $20 left by the time they arrived in Georgia-without spending a penny. The federal government has become so large now, but that is do to us, we could not control ourselves so we whined to the state to make laws then the states could not control their selves and they in turn whined to the federal government and now we have what we have. As I see it its too late to turn back, sure you have some that are out there in the woods,peeing on their gardens and home-schooling and such,but for the mass majority in this country they could not make it, they would whine and cry about how hard it is,and their neighbors pigs,or the road is dusty,etc.,etc. One of the things I would give up is automobiles,that has been the greatest threat to our lost of community, another thing is TV, my fault is that I did not realize all this stuff while I was younger.

-- Walkingwolf (tjk@cac.net), November 08, 2000.

Welcome aboard, Walkingwolf! I'm one of those folks who wants to pee on my garden.As you said, it all comes down to consent of the governed. There isn't any going back in time, but there is definitely a need to stop this ride into tyrrany that we are all taking whether it is realized by the majority of people or not.

Sharon, I must admit that there some things in your post there that just aren't making sense to me. But I know enough to stay out of eastern Kentucky, if that's important. I do have to say that if you know about something that is or has happened and it is undoubtedly wrong and you don't stand up and point it out, you are an accomplice. From what I can surmise of your post you folks neeed to take back the government there or let more people have their lives destroyed. It's up to you.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 08, 2000.

Epona, I agree with you re: currency. It is nice to have one value to compare. I think, though, that seeing purchases as taught in the book 'Your Money or Your Life' as life energy expended (ie. how many hours work will it take me to acquire that object or service?) that is necessary to acquire something, is a very helpful concept. It actually led me to change my life years ago. And recently, on re- reading, to decrease my flock of chickens from 50 to 8.

Its all in what you value. I value reading, intelligence (school) civic responsibility (volunteering and voting) and community.

-- Anne (HT@HM.com), November 08, 2000.

Doreen

you are absolutely right we do need to take back the government here.Unfortunatly there are way too few of 'we'.Would you like to move here and help? Most of the good people get run off.

My one friend has lived here her whole life and her ancestors before her.She said to me" it's been like this my whole life, my mothers whole life and my grandmothers whole life." It made me think.

I used to think the people were acting like sheep and deserved the shearing they got, for not standing up to the tyrants.I don't think that anymore.My thoughts are still evolving on that one.I'm uncertain where they will end up,but I'm watching & learning.

People here are not shrinking violets,far from it.So the answers to the why and the how are not so plainly seen.This will take some study.I'm sure someone has figured it out, but that someone is not me.

What part of my writing did you not understand?

Did that federal agency you are using get back to you,the one ,I expect, you want to eliminate as unnecessary? Couln't help taking that shot.Forgive me.

I've got to ask a question that's been on my mind-Where do you people find the time to post all this? You all can type, can't you?

-- sharon wt (wildflower@ekyol.com), November 09, 2000.

No Sharon, thye didn't get back to me yet. It wasn't one of the things I said I would eliminate, actually since it involves the storage of legal actions, literature and all of the edicts of government, I would like to keep the Library of Congress. Think it's useful for folks who have a need or desire to check into things.

As for typing, yep....but I think I have gottne a heck of a lot better at it since I started doing it more!

As for your post:

The relief we get is every 20 years or so it gets so bad,when dead bodies start showing up, that the FBI comes in and throws a bunch of the political crooks in jail.Some see fbi as the enemy,here, I see them as our last hope.We are overdue for another enema.

Eventually we will catch up with the rest of you, by that time your place will prob be a poophole and we will be paradise.Patience is mine!

Why will the rest be a poophole? Why is every twenty years time for an enema? If people start showing up for lunch dead and local authorities don't do anything, you can place anonymous calls to state and/or los federales and have them check into it. That's all I didn't really get.

As to the invitation to move up and help rout out the vipers as it were...no, thank you. I am doing my best to do that here in Texas.

-- Doreen (animalwaitresss@excite.com), November 09, 2000.

Doreen thanks for your posting,I feel can understand your thoughts better and can agree on alot of them.

As to why your place might be a jungle in 20 years if it's nice now.....we've gone back to places we really liked 20 years ago and didn't like what was there at all,now.Things either improve or deteriorate, very few seem to stay as they are,although a few places we've returned to have seemed to remain frozen in time. I'm hopeful our place here will improve.I may have my rose-colored glasses on today,though-who knows.

As far as 20 year time table,it seems to be the cycle here-takes that long for the doins' to really start coming to light again and for people to start doing exactly what you suggested,although minus the state guys.Some of them are just as crooked.Last bunch sent to jail included the state police commader,local sherrif,and county judge,back in the early '80's.Word is we have another revolt brewing.Seems like dead bodies have started to show up again.Either the current powers that be will be voted out or jailed out,but he's a very careful old fox and I've been told keeps just barely inside the law as it stands.Misapropriation of Fed money is what will catch him, if anything does.State has been unable or unwilling to find enough on him and his gang.We still have one of the state police sargents that was indited but not proven guilty the last go round, up at the police barracks, and it's known he's protecting them at that level.It takes time to rout all these vipers out, and some days I'm actually hopeful that we can,if we just live long enough.

Have you had good people run for office and win, but refuse to run again bc they absolutely could not stomach what went on and how local money was robbed? Not to mention being afraid of the legal ramifications for being an unwilling participant of fraud,if it came to light,since they are in the extreme minority when it comes to votes.I've had people tell me this.When they find out first hand what's going on,they want nothing to do with such a corrupt setup.I sure can't blame them.What else to do but call for the feds to clean sweep the place?

Oh well,enough of my bellyaching.And how is your day?

-- sharon wt (wildflower@ekyol.com), November 09, 2000.

Doreen,

how and where do you think the taking back of government should begin? also should it be religious groups,indiviuals,etc.? and how far back should we take it? I agree that something should be done but with 280 million people in this country 10 or 12 thousand are not going to do much, and that is why you have pockets of people in this state or that state that turn back to the land,home-school their kids,grow their own veggies,etc. because that is the only way they can fight back in todays world.

-- Walkingwolf (tjk@cac.net), November 09, 2000.

How? there are a bunch of ways, but if I could pick my preference it would be through Constitutional and historical education.(Look who has the rosie glasses on!) Where? Right here, right now. Should it be religous, Yes! Individuals, Yes! How far back? To pre Civil War (minus slavery, because as I said I am wearing the rose glasses and I truly believe all people are created equal) past the formation of the first Central bank that was actually owned by England. I think that there is a critical mass that is about to be reached and the Revolutionary War wasn't fought by the majority. This could be a whole bunch of threads, and this one is about to expire. there has actually been quite a bit of discussion in this realm before. If you go check the archives under political and you will get a really good idea of the where, why and how many of us feel.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 10, 2000.

I could do without, FBI, BATF, SBI, FCC, WELFARE and many other's.

One thing I might say. In my humble opinion "THERE IS ONLY ONE RACE ON THIS PLANET....Human" Maybe this is a starting place where we can all agree.

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), November 10, 2000.