Is this the best you got?greenspun.com : LUSENET : TB2K spinoff uncensored : One Thread |
I've seen some pretty pathetic debating of an issue in my time, but the response of these forum regulars has to take the cake. This thread begins with a comment from me on the hatchet job Peter Jennings did on the NRA last week, and devolves into meaningless and unjustified bird shit from Patricia and Z. Enjoy.Hope its impartial,but I doubt it..on ABC at 7-- will watch (to see if Clinton/Gore spin doctors @re.still on job), October 09, 2000 Answers My reply to peters hatchet job, posted on ABC website. I really loved that closing statement Peter. The one where you said we'd see in less than four weeks whether more people voted their guns or saw a wider view. Well I see a wider view, and I'm voting my gun. It's either that or sooner or later I'll have to use it against someone sent to confiscate it. The wide view goes back several thousand years. It encompasses every dictator and despot who has ever first disarmed and then enslaved a nation. The wide view sees more than the present, it also sees the possibilities of the future. Sarah Brady said it better than any other gun grabber. "OUR TASK OF CREATING A SOCIALIST AMERICA CAN ONLY SUCCEED WHEN ALL WHO WOULD OPPOSE US HAVE BEEN TOTALLY DISARMED." We've seen what socialist governments do to their populations. We see the democratic party pursuing blatant anti gun and socialist policies. We see the socialist commentators on the evening news trying to demonize every facet of traditional American values, while trying to present it as unbiased reporting. All I got to say is keep it up. You bring more people to the constitutionalist side every day, and when you finaly feel brave enough to make your move, we're still gonna have our guns and we'll always have the memories. Memories of you. And our guns.
The second amendment has been with us, and served us well for over two hundred years. It is all that stands between us and the socialist police state the democrats have been assembling for the last 7 and a half years. We all know you're a Canadian Socialist, working for a globalist corporation, and that your network along with the others no longer even pretend to dispense the news in an impartial fashion. You use the platform of public trust to shape opinion. I believe those were your words weren't they? So lets drop the evening news handle and call it what it is. Propoganda. Left leaning socialist, constitutionally subversive, anti American, anti gun, anti Christian, commie loving claptrap. Big Brother at its finest. Goose stepping across that bridge into the twenty first century, lockstep with Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, and all your other gun grabbing socialist murdering heroes. You are SCUM.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), October 09, 2000.
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C'mon Nik, how do ya really feel?
-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), October 10, 2000.
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See Unk, a WHINER.
-- (fannybubbles@usa.net), October 10, 2000.
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and the TRUTH will keep us free---BIG BIG ATTABOY FOR NIKOLI!!! the sad TRUTH IS=BOTH PARTIES ARE N.W.O. both want us disarmed!! easier to tatoo us!! NEW WORLD ORDER==ANTI CHRIST..
-- luv it. (dogs@zianet.com), October 10, 2000.
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People on this board are really incredible self centered assholes totally devoid of holding any type of conversation that doesn't entail abuse. What usless eaters.
-- kcjb (im@outtahere.sheesh), October 10, 2000.
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Gee Nikoli, Let's really alienate them... I can hear them now... "Aw geez, listen to this klan member wanna be... etc..."
It is amazing that people have not learned you can attract more bees with honey than with salt...
If you really want someone to listen to you, you do not make connotations between their mother and combat boots...
And yes, I support the NRA AND the GOA. I am an avid shooter, and can take out a gnat with a .45 at 25 yards...
You are doing exactly what they want you to do. Alienate the fence sitters...
growlin' at the TV...
The Dog
-- The Dog (dogdesert@hotmail.com), October 10, 2000.
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Al-d: You are armed?
Best wishes,,,,
Z
-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), October 10, 2000.
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The Hell with that Dog. I 'm not roling over and exposing my throat to a bunch of Socialist bastards whose only intent is to deprive me of my rights and my paycheck to further their own agenda. In Texas it is legal to shoot to kill someone who is violating your civil rights. These Socialist assholes have permeated every level of the gov. and completely taken over the mass media, and no dirty trick is beneath them in the pursuit of my freedoms, including representing themselves as unbiased reporters while dispensing liberal propoganda. This has gone past the point of civility. If we cannot gain access to mainstream media to counterbalnce their assault our only recourse is to be so strident and vocal in minor media as to be heard over the liberal din. Jennings knows full well that a ban on guns is going to result in most likely hundreds of thousands of deaths in this country, the suspension of the constitution, and the end of freedom as we know it in this country. His agenda leads directly into a socialist police state and his total disreguard of jounalistic morals and the consequences of his actions call for nothing less than a full attack on his principles and ethics. You can lay back and thump your tail if you want to while they steadily encroach on your ights, but my line is drawn. Not one more inch and the dog is off the porch with fangs bared.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), October 10, 2000.
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Nik: We've seen what socialist governments do to their populations.
Were you thinking of Sweden or Norway?
Best wishes,,,,
Z
-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), October 10, 2000.
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>> Jennings knows full well that a ban on guns is going to result in most likely hundreds of thousands of deaths in this country, the suspension of the constitution, and the end of freedom as we know it in this country. << Jennings is bad man! Jennings is devil! Bad, Jennings, bad!
Niki is a good boy! Have a treat! [he wonders...how do I get the slobber off the ball...?]
-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), October 10, 2000.
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No Z iwasn't thinking of Sweden or Norway. i was thinking of some nations which more closely match the religious and racial demographics of the United States. Of course the 70% tax rate in either of those countries is sufficient reason to abandon them, but compared to what has happened in Stalins Soviet Socialist Republic, Hitlers National Soviet Germany, and Pol Pot's asian wonderland give a much clearer picture of what happens when a socialist government takes unlimited power over a nonhomongenous population. But then I don't supose you've noticed the demonization of the Christian right and gun owners in this country undertaken by the main stream media since Clinton came into power, have you? Brian you are an unmitigated socialist idiot, as has been perfectly clear from you assinine opinions over the last year and a half. You can take that ball and shove it up you commie loving ass, and the next time you post a response to me at least have the intelligence to say something worth replying to.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), October 10, 2000.
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What better compliment is there, Brian? How do you rate such low standing with the Nikolai's of the world? Teach me? Please? Rich
-- Brian Wannabe (apologies to smarty for the theft) (howe9@shentel.net), October 10, 2000.
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Nikoli!! Hey, dude, long time no see. I like what you say. (And your style.)
-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 10, 2000.
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>> Teach me? Please? << [Attempting a Yoda voice:] Rich, know it already you do. The Force must you use. Apply it to nose hairs you must, until a gob of spit from his mouth comes out and bespittles his chin.
-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), October 10, 2000.
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As a matter of record for future reference: The unit that identifies itself as King of Spain has indicated an alliance with a militia, racist, christian idenity poster. File for future reference. notetaker
-- notetaker (notetaker@records.zzz), October 10, 2000.
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"christian idenity", as opposed to "Christian identity", right. Moron.
-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 10, 2000.
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KOS: You have just made another enemy in the long line that you have accumulated. Moron, indeed. Don't know who notetaker is, but he sure nailed you.
Best wishes,,,,
Z
-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), October 10, 2000.
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Z: So what was I supposed to say, "Gee, 'notetaker', thanks for deciding that I am a militia member, a racist, and Christian ident-whatever, all because I happen to respect Nikoli and agree what he said on this particular thread"??????
-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 10, 2000.
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Thanks for the support KOS, good to see you again. For the fuckhead above, I am neither an organized militia memeber, Christian Identity member, nor a racist. For the record if you live in the United States you are a member of the unorganized militia whether you like it or not. Check the code asswipe. I got a list too Z. And a hell of a lot of ammunition.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), October 10, 2000.
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Z, Look at what Nik says. If you agree or disagree does not change the truth in his statement: The wide view goes back several thousand years. It encompasses every dictator and despot who has ever first disarmed and then enslaved a nation.
Petty politics beside, this is truth, ugly truth, truth that could "Never happen here" but still truth.
-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), October 10, 2000.
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This whole thread makes me want to get muddie! Please wait to form an opinion until I cum first.
NRA member since 1989.
assholes
-- BigTits (fake@sad.com), October 11, 2000.
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Big Tits: I fear that your recent implants may have caused excess silicone to travel up to your brain. You may have specific legal rights, please consult an attorney.
-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 11, 2000.
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"I got a list too Z. And a hell of a lot of ammunition."
That's what's "demonized" gun owners; not a "liberal media". Think before you speak; you might actually have a case if you did.
-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), October 11, 2000.
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Patricia, I am overwhelmed with remorse for offending you delicate fucking sensibilities. In the immortal words of tricky dick, "Let me make this perfectly clear". There is a large percentage of the gun owning population who believe very strongly in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, both as the supreme law of the land and as an absolute limit to government power run amuk. Our Supreme court has completely abdicated its role as limiter of government choosing instead to interpret the Constitution as a "Living Document." In the vacuum concieved by this event special interest groups financed and staffed by socialist-communist sympathizers have been busily dimantling the United States and rebuilding it into another third world hell hole. The central thrust of their campaign has been to gradually disarm the American public, for they know we will never let them peacefully throw out the constitution and American soverignity in favor of their Socialist one world government. It isn't these people who my post are directed at. They know full well the end result of the campaign for disarmament is going to result in civil war, U.N. troops on our soil, and Martial law. That is exactly what they want and need to bring the final collapse to this nation which will herald in the New World Order. My target is all those cow faced mindless soccer moms out there in yuppie land who are being manipulated by the socialist controlled media into thinking this would be a better nation without guns. Only when those moms realize they are actually spawning a domestic blood bath will they halt their idiotic march to doom. I frankly think this is the last best hope for avoiding the ineviteable civil war we are facing in the not too distant future. My post is not a threat of violence. It is a prophecy and a promise. If these gun grabbers don't back off this country will be destroyed, and millions will die in the process.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), October 12, 2000.
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KOS, care to comment on Niki's missive above? Still full of admiration for his clear vision and political wisdom?
-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), October 13, 2000.
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I'm still looking for the liberal media. So far, they're way down the road to my right.
-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), October 13, 2000.
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Hey, Nik, take a freaking pill. You couldn't possibly offend me. I think you should have taken that left turn at Albuquerque; you meant to post this on EZ Board, didn't ya?
But let me tell YOU something, Mr. Patriot. You are damned lucky to be living where you are. This is one of the only places on Earth that allows you to spew your hate-filled, paranoid rhetoric, completely free from any worry that you'll be imprisoned for the cretin you are. You don't like it here in the good ol' U.S. of A.? Then leave.
(Psst - was that a commie under that rock?!?!)
FS is right. Why is it that when I select the bookmark for Uncensored I seem to get EZB? I can't seem to find the "socialist media" either.
-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), October 13, 2000.
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Well I see the best any of you can do for rebuttal is to claim the mainstream American media doesn't lean to the left, and demonize me as a hate monger. I rest my case.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), October 13, 2000.
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October 12, 2000 (Archive Photos) Gary Oldman
Oldman Says Studio Democrats Ruined Contender
Cantankerous actor Gary Oldman is openly badmouthing his new movie, The Contender, just one day before its release date which happens to fall on Friday the 13th, with a full moon in the sky. Will tomorrow be the film's unlucky day?
Oldman, a British citizen and a real-life conservative, is fuming about editing cuts made to The Contender, which he alleges were made due to the studio's Democratic leanings. In the new issue of Premiere magazine, Oldman and his manager, Douglas Urbanski, accuse DreamWorks honchos Steven Spielberg, David Geffen, and Jeffrey Katzenberg all Democrats of turning the political drama upside down to make it mesh with their pro-Al Gore agendas.
"If your names are Spielberg, Katzenberg, and Geffen," Urbanski declares, "you can't have a film with a Republican character who is at all sympathetic being released on Oct. 13 [less than a month before the presidential election]."
The Contender focuses on a female presidential candidate (Joan Allen) who comes under fire when her opponent, a Republican congressman (Oldman), reveals a scandalous skeleton in her closet.
Oldman says when DreamWorks bought the film rights, the company forced director-writer Rod Lurie to turn The Contender into an unbalanced, Democrat-friendly tale. Urbanski cuts to the chase by alleging that the film is a "piece of propaganda" on par with that produced by Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels.
DreamWorks spokesman Walter Parkes denies the charges. "There's no indication to me whatsoever that Rod [Lurie] ever felt pressured," he said. "One only has to look at the coverage of the [Democratic] convention to see that the owners of this company have sympathies with the Democratic Party. Did those sympathies enter into the editorial process or the decision to buy the movie? Unequivocally, no."
Aside from Oldman's disgust, much of The Contender's pre-release buzz has been positive, with many industry folks speculating on the film's Oscar potential.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), October 13, 2000.
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If I had to guess (and it's not much of a stretch, based on your postings here), "Pat Buchanan" is to the "left" of you.
(You don't have a case. Turn down the paranoia and rhetoric a bit and maybe people will take you seriously. We aren't "demonizing" you -- you're doing that all by yourself; which was the point I was trying to make in the first place.)
-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), October 13, 2000.
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With Carl Limbacher and NewsMax.com Staff For the story behind the story... Thursday October 12, 2000; 10:04 AM EDT
Despite Debate Win, Media Disparages Bush's Intellect
Despite Texas Gov. George Bush's clear victory over Vice President Al Gore in Wednesday night's debate, the press continues to characterize the Republican as "a low watt bulb" in the smarts department - while ignoring Gore's well-documented record of intellectual mediocrity and academic failure.
In post-debate spin, New York Daily News pundit Michael Kramer claimed that while Bush may have seemed in command of the facts, it was only because he "competently ran down his bold faced Cliffs Notes issues highlights."
Kramer said voters have to make their choice between a "clearly more knowledgeable" Al Gore and "a low watt bulb" like Bush.
The New York Times echoed Kramer's attempt to stereotype the Texas Republican as a dummy, in an editorial claiming that Bush's obvious goal in the debate was to "look smarter."
Even the Wall Street Journal editorial page helped fuel the image of Bush as an intellectual lightweight in their post-debate spin, with an ostensibly pro-Bush op-ed piece arguing that "intelligence isn't enough" to make a president successful.
If the Bush-Gore intellect gap were manifestly demonstrable, contentions like these might be defensible. But the fact is, the only quantifiable measure of each candidate's intelligence available to the voters remains their academic records, documents that show that Bush outperformed Gore at almost every turn.
No mainstream news venue, for instance - including the three cited above - has reported that Al Gore actually flunked out of grad school at Vanderbilt University's College of Divinity. But in a report covered by NewsMax.com two months ago, Gore biographer Bill Turque revealed:
"Of the eight classes [Gore] took over three semesters, according to his Vanderbilt transcript, five ended in F's or incompletes that lapsed into F's. ..."
Shortly thereafter, Gore bailed out of divinty school and enrolled in Vanderbilt's College of Law, where he also dropped out after earning only mediocre grades.
"From his lower school years at St. Albans to his incomplete effort at Vanderbilt law school, Gore was often an underachiever," explained David Maraniss, another Gore biographer who covered Gore's record of academic failure in a largely ignored Washington Post report in March.
"In his sophmore year at Harvard, Gore's grades were lower than any semester recorded on Bush's transcript from Yale," added Maraniss.
"For all Gore's later fascination with science and technology, he often struggled academically in those subjects. The political champion of the natural world received [a] D in Natural Sciences 6 (Man's Place in Nature) and then got a C-plus in Natural Sciences 118 in his senior year."
"The self-proclaimed inventor of the Internet avoided all courses in mathematics and logic throughout college," said Maraniss.
Gore's record at St. Albans prep school was no better, ranking only 25th out of a class of 51 by graduation. According to Maraniss, one of the key reasons he got into Harvard was because "they were very impressed by the fact that he was a political son."
When Gore applied to Harvard, his father was a powerful sitting U.S senator from Tennessee. When Bush got into Yale, his father was a barely known one-term congressman from Texas.
In contrast to Vice President Gore, Gov. Bush graduated from Yale University and went on to earn his Masters of Business Administration from Harvard.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), October 13, 2000.
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Nikoli, perhaps you should move into the city with your guns, and see how long you can survive with your pursuit of liberty and freedom. Gansta kids don't have respect for you noble types, sadly. But there's still hope for you yet, if you move to the hills, far far away from cities and suburbs. And bunker down!
-- (smarty@wannabe.one), October 13, 2000.
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Helpful Hint #3: Citing "NewsMax" and a "celebrity" (and a British citizen, at that!) doesn't actually help your "cause" either.
Oh, and, not that you'll see this either, but.....Bush "disparages" his OWN "intellect" (?!?!) every time he opens his mouth (much the same as through your very own words do you "demonize" yourself).
-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), October 13, 2000.
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I guess neither of you wants to actually discuss this issue. You keep repeating paranoia and hate but you don't have a single argument or point to back it up. Where is the paranoia? Have not gun laws now entirely banned the import of the very weapons we need to defend the constitution? Has the proliferation of machinegun toting black clad storm troops throughout our police forces not been a trademark of the current administration? Can you point to a single proposal by Al gore that is not socialist? Does not the FBI's operation Meggido single out right wing Christians groups and individuals for scrutiny as terrorist, and by association brand them as such? Can you point out a single pro gun report aired on any of the major networks in the last eight years? Is the ratio of soft money campaign funds donated to democrats and republicans by the Hollywood elite anywhere near balanced? I think not. It was these very liberals and their failed welfare policies which created the gang culture, and thereby the vast majority of gun crime in this country. It is these same liberals who have trashed the constitution in their ongoing quest to pander to every special interest group they think they can buy a vote from, and rob me of my earnings at point of gun to pay for it. There is no need for me to leave America, it is leaving me. You say I hate, well yes I do. I hate the fact that theives disguising themselves as benefactors have been running the country into the ground for the last eight years. I hate the fact that foreign nations which have nuclear weapons aimed at us are feeding at the trough of public money, then redirecting those funds to undermine our constitution. I hate the ignornance and apathy of the general public, and their selfish disreguard for the birthrights of their children and grandchildren. You don't seem to Understand that AMERICA IS NOT A PLACE, IT IS A DOCUMENT BASED ON THE IDEALS OF THE FOUNDERS. If you remove the Constitution and pervert the bill of rights what remains is no longer America. It is still the same geographic location, but it has become a new nation. And not for the better I think.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), October 13, 2000.
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Well KOS: I have listened. Your beliefs were explained by Nik. You still haven't explained to me why I shouldn't consider you a paranoid, racist bigot. I have to leave now but I am sure you will have an explanation ready when I get back in the next week or so. I now understand why you don't want to devulge an email address.
Best wishes,,,,
Z
-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), October 13, 2000.
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Gutless bastard.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), October 13, 2000.
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Nik: Gutless bastard.
Good debating point. Now I have to go catch a flight to a meeting where we will make policy decisions on this subject. You sure have convinced me of your position :^)
Best wishes,,,,
Z
-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), October 13, 2000.
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Nik, what's to discuss? I gave you my opinion, you retorted with some NWO-socialist-commie-liberal media conspiracy bullshit (further digging yourself into your "right-wing fringe" hole), apparently "backed up" by a story about how a celebrity (who happens to be a British citizen) feels about his most recent film, and a pro- Dubya piece from "NewsMax" (which, BTW, isn't worth the "free cyber- space" it's "printed on").
Was I supposed to respond to that nonsense? LOL.
-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), October 13, 2000.
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What is a socialist? They take your money which you EARNED, against your will, under threat of government force, and redistribute it to people who have neither earned nor deserve it. What is the distinction here from armed robbery? That is what it boils down to in the final analysis. I'm not talking taxes to support the government or military. I'm talking about why in the hell should I be responsible for paying someone elses insurance, drug bills, or child care? These people are responsible for their own decisions in life, I don't ask or want them to pay my bills, or to finance idiotic decisions I have made during the course of my life. Irresponsibility should not be rewarded, nor incompetence made a virtue. We seem to have a fundamental difference of opinion here reguarding personal responsibility. If you make no effort to provide for your families needs, or to better yourself in life, either be content with the station you occupy or accept the responsibility for the situation which you have created through your own choices. If you choose to have ten children as an unmarried mother by ten different fathers, don't ask me to pay for their upbringing. Is this sinking in? It is not my role to provide your kids with a college education. It is not legal or ethical for the government to steal my money under threat of imprisonment or death to do it either. In Texas it is legal to shoot to kill someone, or anyone who is willfully violating your civil rights. Now explain to me the difference between someone at random violating my rights, and a congressman who trys to abolish my God given unalienable civil rights? The one is temporary, and is punishable by death. the other is permanent, and nothing can be done. Nothing except for the remedy the forefathers provided for in the bill of rights, embodied in the second amendment. I don't know why I waste my time talking to a forum of moral degenerates such as this, it seems a total waste of time. You people are without a moral compass and lack even a basic understanding of what the concept of freedom means. I'll leave it at this. I don't infringe on your rights, leave mine the hell alone.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@Y2000.com), October 13, 2000.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), October 13, 2000
Do you consider posting the words, "Gutless bastard" to the end of every thread to be "debating an issue?"
-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), October 14, 2000.
THIS ONE IS FOR NIK!It's your patriotic duty to forward this information ******************************************************
2 Retired IRS Agents "EXPOSE" the income tax scam.
We are 2 retired IRS Agents and we have witnessed the IRS defrauding Americans for many years. It is destroying the freedoms of ALL Americans. It "MUST STOP" and it is now time to expose this fraud to ALL Americans.
We challenge you to ask ANY IRS Agent to show you a Statute that "REQUIRES" Americans to FILE Income Tax. They cannot find it. There is NO LAW that makes ANY American "liable" or "subject" to pay or file Income Tax. IRS fraud expert, Irwin Schiff 702-877-2833 offers a $5000 award to anyone who can find such a statute.
Bill Conklin from Denver offers a $50,000 reward. His phone number is 303-455-0837, in case you can find such a Statute. His web site is www.anti-irs.com He also offers a "free book" about the IRS that you can download and print up.
The IRS has for many years used Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Implementing and Enforcement Regulations (Title 27) to "ENFORCE" the Federal Income Tax (Title 26) and has used the ATF Regulations to fraudulently take homes and bank accounts away from Americans. Because the Income Tax is voluntary and un-Constitutional, the IRS Code has NO Enforcement Regulations! So in order to BLUFF Americans into paying Income Tax, the IRS uses Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Implementing Regulations to force and to defraud all Americans into paying Income tax that they are not required to pay.
The IRS is DEFRAUDING ALL Americans and is bankrupting and impoverishing America by "GIVING" all our Income Tax payments to the Federal Reserve Bank in payment for the "PHONY' Federal Debt. Look on the back of each and every check of Income Tax payment you have ever paid to the IRS. With the stamp shown below,the IRS has signed over ALL your Income Tax Payments to the Federal Reserve bank. YOUR INCOME TAX IS NOT USED TO RUN OUR GOVERNMENT. This fraud will BANKRUPT America.
In 1983 President Reagan appointed the Grace Commission to investigate the IRS and where our Income Tax payments were going. They discovered that not one penny of our income tax payments go to run our Government. They said that all Income Tax payments go to the Federal Reserve Bank.
The IRS has been defrauding Americans for many years. The IRS has even sent ALL your Social Security payments to the Federal Reseve Bank. Go check it out for yourself and then you will know FOR SURE that we are telling the TRUTH.
******************************************* THIS IS AN IRS CHECK ENDORSEMENT.
Pay any F.R.B. Branch or Gen. Depository for credit U.S. Treas. This is in payment of US. oblig; Must be paid in par N.P. Do not wire none-payment.20-09-0900 Dir.I.R.S. CTR. Kansas City, Missouri. *******************************************
The Federal Reserve Bank IS NOT a Federal bank, but is a private Bank owned by FOREIGN BANKERS who do not pay Income tax! Rothchild, (London), Lazard Bros. (Paris), Israel Seiff, (Italy), Kuhn-Loeb-Warburg,Lehman-Goldman-Sachs-Rockefeller, (New York). In fact, the Federal Reserve Bank has NEVER EVER been audited. Your Phone book PROVES that it is not a Federal Bank. They are listed in the Yellow Pages with all the other "PRIVATE BANKS." They put "Federal" in their name to deceive WE Americans. The Federal Reserve Bank is draining the American economy with the "phony" Income Tax.
AMERICA IS BANKRUPT WITH A $6 TRILLION "PHONY" DEBT.
The Federal Reserve Bank is destroying America! America "WAS" the richest nation on earth, until 1913, when the Federal Reserve Bank was created by foreign Bankers. This was passed in Congress on Christmas "EVE" 1913, when most Congressmen had gone home for Christmas. It was passed by Un-American Congressmen, who had been paid-off and bribed by the wealthy foreign bankers.
Now America is bankrupt with a $6 Trillion phony Federal debt, because EVERY single dollar in circulation has been "BORROWED" from the Federal Reserve Bank. The US Treasury prints our money and then "sells" it to the Federal Reserve Bank for the printing cost. The US Treasury then borrows it back and then we the people pay interest on the "FACE VALUE" of our money to the Federal Reserve Bank with our Income Tax payments to pay for the "PHONY" debt. This is the BIGGEST FRAUD in US history. This is a deliberate and planned bankruptcy to destroy America. Governments are the creators of money, and should not have to borrow it from a foreign private Bank.
Congressman Louis T. Mc Fadden, Chairman House Banking said..."The Federal Reserve Bank CAUSED the Great Depression by DELIBERATELY witholding money out of circulation"...Congressional Record May 23,1933. After 3 attempts on his life, Mc Fadden was poisoned at a banquet! Can you guess who killed him? They steal and plunder from America, but they even kill Americans.
Congress has been lying to you because it is mathematically impossible to pay off the debt or balance the budget with "BORROWED MONEY". President Woodrow Wilson confessed on his deathbed that he committed TREASON against ALL Americans. The Federal Reserve Bank will soon force America into bankruptcy when the interest on the debt has become un-payable. This will cause an economic collapse. This is when our corrupt Government will bring in the "New World Order" and we will be ruled by the United Nations. We will then lose our freedoms and Constitution.
We have already lost our Constitution and Common Law in the US Courts. All US Courts are now under Maritime Military Law with the New World Order, "Gold Fringed US Flag" (Army Regulations 260-10) "displayed" in every US Courtroom with a conviction rate of 97.3%. All US Judges have perjured their Oath to uphold the Constitution and are in CONTEMPT of the Constitution. Just seek the protection of the Constitution and the Judge will tell you to "shut up and sit down". This could NEVER happen in a Common Law Court.
All US Banks also display the Gold Fringed Flag. Many US Police Officers are starting to wear a gold fringed flag patch on their uniforms. Millions of Americans "unknowingly" pledge allegiance to the "Gold Fringed New World Order Flag" at schools, churches and scout meetings.
Our one dollar bill is proof of conspiracy by the Fed. Since 1935 our one dollar bill has had an "Occult" symbol of the all-seeing eye of the Anti-Christ that reads "Annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum". Meaning "Announcing the birth of the New World Order". This is absolute proof of Conspiracy by the Federal Reserve Bank to destroy and enslave Americans.
AMERICANS,IT'S TIME TO GET "MAD AS HELL" AND FIGHT TO GET OUR COUNTRY BACK.
Henry Kissinger said, Nafta and Gatt are the major stepping stones towards the New World Order. Nafta and Gatt caused 28.6% unemployment in Clay County, Tennessee. In 3 years Nafta has cost Americans over 700,000 jobs and more to come! Congress has "SOLD OUT AMERICA.! By the way, what ever happened to the "CONTRACT WITH AMERICA?" How can they forget so easy? That was just a big farce!
America's Founding Fathers formed our Government to SERVE WE THE PEOPLE and to give us "FREEDOM". Our Government has defrauded WE THE PEOPLE and has turned this around and now ALL Americans are ENSLAVED by our Government by working 5 months EVERY YEAR to pay the Phony Income Tax. That should make you "MAD AS HELL. Read on and you'll get even MADDER.
Our Constitution, Section 9 reads......"No direct Tax shall be laid". This has NEVER been repealed. IT IS STILL LAW. This renders the 16th Amendment invalid. You cannot have two opposing statutes in the Constitution. The Income Tax is a Constitutional violation, if enforced by the IRS. Only if the tax is voluntary, can it be Constitutional.
The IRS Code, Title 26 has NEVER been enacted by Congress into POSITIVE LAW. The proof is in the inside cover of all Titles of US Codes at your local Library. Section 7401 of Title 26 claims that the IRS does not have the power to lien, levy or seize property WITHOUT a Court Order. The IRS NEVER uses Court Orders.
"Notice of Levy" or Lien is just that, a notice, THERE IS NO ACTUAL LIEN! The IRS cannot produce that document when you demand to see it.
Americans, you need to challenge the IRS when they try to take your property or bank account away from you without a Court Order. Without a Court Order they DO NOT HAVE JURISDICTION to take ANYTHING.
The IRS has been illegally stealing and plundering from Americans for decades. It is a known fact among IRS Agents that the IRS is responsible for over 500 suicides per month, over half the divorces and 3/4 of the bankruptcies.
THE IRS IS NOT A GOVERNMENT AGENCY.
The proof....IRS Agents cars DO NOT have Government EX-empt License Plates! Most IRS Agents have no clue why. All Government Agencies get "FREE" license plates. Why not the IRS? IRS Agents don't even know why. Most of them have no clue.
Many years ago the Telephone Company "gave" the IRS a Government listing, because of many complaints from people who could not find them in the phone book. The IRS was created through a Puerto Rico Trust and is no more Federal than the Federal Express! As a private Corporation, the IRS is NOT registered to do business in ANY State! Without a Business License, by Law they cannot legally be engaged in business. A "heavy graduated Income Tax" is the Second Plank of the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx 1848! Income Tax is the very core of Communism.
The IRS is only a collection Agency for the EVIL Federal Reserve Bank. The US Tax Court is located in Washington, DC. and has NO branches in ANY State! This is because the IRS ONLY has Jurisdiction (Authority) in the District of Columbia. Challenge their Jurisdiction and refuse to pay their $65 filing fee and your case will be DISMISSED. They only have Jurisdiction "IF" you pay the filing fee, because then you have entered into their arena.
Many IRS publications and IRS Agents handbooks claim that the Income Tax is VOLUNTARY. The word "mandantory" cannot be found in the IRS Code, Title 26. Why do you voluntarily pay Income Tax? Nowhere in the IRS Code can you find a Statute that says that ALL Americans are required to pay Income Tax........NOWHERE!
The US Supreme Court has ruled in Flora vs. USA 362 U.S.145. that the Income Tax is VOLUNTARY. They ruled that..."Our Tax system is based upon voluntary assessment and payment, NOT upon distraint" (Force). Tax liability does not appear on the 1040 Form and is not "defined" ANYWHERE in the IRS Code.
Every Statute says, "IF YOU ARE LIABLE" then you have to do this and do that. They also state that, "if you have a Taxable year"....."IF" means that YOU have to determine IF.... So if you determine that you are Liable and that IF you determine that you have a Taxable year, then you can "voluntear to pay Income Tax. If you determine that you are not liable or that you do not have a Taxable year, you are not "REQUIRED" to pay the Tax.
It is "YOU" who determines that you are liable by voluntarily filing a 1040 Form. Americans make themselves liable by filing Income Tax. If you don't file, you're not liable. Off course the IRS will try to "bluff" you into filing by sending you phony enforcement letters, quoting ATF Enforcement Statutes and Regulations.
Before you stop filing, to give you piece of mind, we suggest you place all your assets in a Trust. Your assets should be in a Trust anyway for all kinds of circumstances and protection. If you have no assets, no sweat. Then claim 9 dependents and stop filing and paying Income Tax. Then wisely invest the money saved and then retire in style as a millionaire. Then you will not need Social UN-Security.
The IRS Code, Title 26, only applies to Tax payers and NOT to NON-Tax payers. Always respond to their letters with this statement and tell them they have no Jurisdiction over you. This is called "THE BIGGEST INCOME TAX LOOPHOLE". In fact that this the name of a book by Otto Skinner. $45. P.O.Box 6609, San Pedro, Ca. 90734. This is one of the best books on the Income Tax. Plainly said...."the Income Tax Laws DO NOT apply to you if you do not file a 1040 Return, because you are not a Tax payer". If you are not a Tax payer, you are not liable for the Tax.
YOU WAIVE YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS BY FILING INCOME TAX.
When you sign the 1040 Form under penalties of "PERJURY", you waive your Fifth Amendment Rights, which state that you CANNOT be compelled to give "POTENTIALLY" incriminating evidence against yourself. This makes the Income Tax Un-Constitutional, because the IRS requires that signature. They get away with this by declaring that the income tax is "voluntary". This is why the IRS Code Statutes say..."If you are liable"... Because if you pay Income Tax, you volunteer to pay. When you volunteer, then you make yourself liable.
The Fourth and Fifth Ammendment of the Bill of Rights give you the right to "refuse" to show your records during an audit. Only if you voluntarily show your records, can the IRS Agent audit them. Americans, STOP VOLUNTEERING anything the IRS asks you to do. They have absolutely No Jurisdiction and Authority over you.
THE IRS CLAIMS THAT OVER 50 MILLION AMERICANS DO NOT FILE INCOME TAX.
In 1991, the IRS reported that there were 163 Million Taxpayers. In a seperate report they claimed they received 111 Million Tax filings for that year. That is 52 Million that do not file Income tax. IRS Commissioner Peggy Richardson claimed in 1991 that one out of five has stopped paying Income Tax and that the Tax revolt is growing. None of them are in jail. Only a handfull is in jail because they yielded to IRS jurisdiction. In fact, you can only go to jail for falsifying Income Tax Returns, when you sign the 1040 Form under penalties of perjury. If you don't file, they DO NOT have jurisdiction. Without Jurisdiction they have no Case.
If they take you to Court,DO NOT HIRE A LAWYER. A Lawyer is an Officer of the Court and he will argue the Case for you because that is how he earns money. REFUSE to enter the Court and stay BEHIND the little fence and challege their Jurisdiction and DO NOT EVER argue the case. Once you argue the case, then you have yielded to their Jusrisdiction.
Become educated and eliminate fear of the IRS. Order the book "Economic Solutions" $8.95. Quality Press. 2888 Bluff Street. Suite 315. Boulder, Colorado. Also order "IRS under Indictment" and learn how to legally stop paying Income Tax. Advantage Publishing 1-916-222-4684.
Devvy Kidd, 12453 West Baltic Ave. Lakewood, Colorado 80228, also has very infomative books. Write her for a brochure!
Senator Henry Belmon in 1969 said....If Tax payers EVER discover that the IRS operates on 90% bluff, the entire system will collapse. Before 1940 there was no Income Tax. To finance World War ll, we paid a VICTORY TAX, which was repealed in 1944. Why are Americans still paying this VICTORY TAX? It is because Americans are COMPLACENT and have fear of the IRS, because the IRS has cleverly made Americans think that they are required to pay Tax.
Order Irwin Schiff's book, "The Federal Mafia" $25 from Freedom Books, Post Office Box 5326, Evansville, IN. 47716. This book is also a MUST. Irwin will show you that....No law requires you to file Income Tax returns! No law requires you to pay Income Taxes. No law requires you to keep books for Income Tax purposes. No law authorizes the IRS to audit you. No law authorizes employers to withold Tax from wages. Talk to Irwin about your Tax problem at 1-702-877-2833. Become educated and order his video's and audio cassettes. He can be found on the internet. His Web site is http:/www.ischiff.com If you have a computer, enter patriot, tax fraud, IRS fraud, etc, on your Search Engines and learn more of what we have been telling you in this letter.
PRESIDENT REAGAN CALLED FOR AN INCOME TAX REBELLION.
President Ronald Reagan, May 1983.... "Our Federal Tax system is, in short, utterly impossible, utterly unjust and completely counter productive. It reeks with injustice and is fundamentally UN-American! It has earned a rebellion, and it is time we rebelled.
Eliminate the IRS out of your life, explained on 2 video's,$40. 702-853-2342. IRS Jurisdiction investigated,$25, on video, call 801-377-0570. Weekly Newspaper "The Spotlight" exposes Government fraud. 1-800-522-6292. Their web site is www.spotlight.org
Congress MUST SAVE AMERICA and abolish the "GESTAPO" IRS, Federalize the Federal Reserve Bank, and throw out the foreign bankers from our money system and start printing interest free Constitutional money. (US Notes!) The Constitution only gives Congress the right to create our money and NOT a private bank, run by foreigners.
Income Tax will then no longer be neccesary. Excise Tax, Tariffs and Duties will then pay for Government. When the British Taxed the Colonies, John Adams, John Hancock and other Patriots had the "GUTS" to rebel against their 5% Tax with the Boston Tea Party and the American Revolution. Our country became free because of a 5% tax. Without these hero's we would still be paying Tax to the Queen of England. America needs HERO'S like that again to take our wonderful country back from the "BLOOD SUCKING MONEY CHANGERS".
Now Federal Taxes are up to 39.6%. THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE. All Americans MUST become Patriots and UNITE to restore Constitutional Government. Massive Civil disobedience is a "proper form" of Petition for Redress of Grievances and Political Protest. This is the ONLY way to wake up Congress. We Americans MUST force Congress to finally END the Income Tax scam. Imagine what your life will be like without Income Tax! You would be living a life of luxury.
AMERICA IS IN GREAT PERIL.
You MUST sacrifice your time and effort to help us inform other Americans. Being complacent will not save America. Americans have been complacent long enough. Send this message to all your local Politicians, friends, neighbors and relatives. Also send to your local Talk Radio's. When 100 million Americans stop filing Income Tax, the IRS will be powerless and Congress will be forced to stop the "phony" Income Tax.
Mark Twain..."In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, only then the timid join him". Our great country needs true Patriots again. Our Government is totally out of control. Our Government was created to serve We The People. Now we Americans have become the slaves and servants of our Government. Americans are not free anymore.
Our Government forces all Americans to obtain a permit or a license to do ANYTHING. Without these Permits and Licenses we would be breaking the Law. WHAT KIND OF FREEDOM IS THAT? Licenses and Permits are used to control us and to steal money from us. Our Government has taken away our basic God given freedoms! Our Government has TOTAL control over Americans.
If you want to be free again, we Americans need to overthrow the MOST corrupt Agency first and that is the IRS.
As retired IRS Agents we learned long ago about IRS and Federal Reserve fraud. Because we love America, we MUST expose the IRS Monster we have worked for. It is YOUR Patriotic DUTY to help us spread this news to ALL AMERICANS. Please copy and mail to others! It's your patriotic duty! UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL!
Earl Sorensen & Fred Fuller.
-- ... (...@...com), October 14, 2000.
too much to read...
-- Uncle Bob (unclb0b@aol.com), October 14, 2000.
Whoa! Nikoli and the 2 IRS guys on a single thread..."Let's do the Time Warp again"
-- (I'm a@little.teapot), October 14, 2000.
YES NIK-YOU ARE PROPHESYING!!
-- NOT-SURPRISED (dogs@zianet.com), October 14, 2000.
Good points Nik, it's not paranoia when people ARE out to get ya!
-- Porky (Porky@in.cellblockD), October 14, 2000.
Uncle Bob, did you say to much to read????Part 1&2 www.nexusmagazine.com/ancatomicwar2.html
-- The Evidence for --
Ancient Atomic Warfare
Religious texts and geological evidence suggest that several parts of the world have experienced destructive atomic blasts in ages past.
Part 2 of 2
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Extracted from Nexus Magazine, Volume 7, Number 6 (October-November 2000) or November-December 2000 in the USA only. PO Box 30, Mapleton Qld 4560 Australia. editor@nexusmagazine.com Telephone: +61 (0)7 5442 9280; Fax: +61 (0)7 5442 9381 From our web page at: www.nexusmagazine.com
) 2000 by David Hatcher Childress Extracted from Chapter 6 of his book Technology of the Gods: The Incredible Sciences of the Ancients Published by Adventures Unlimited Press Box 74, Kempton, Illinois, USA TollFree # 1-800-718-4514 Tel: 1 815 253 6390 Fax: 1 815 253 6300 Website: www.adventuresunlimited.co.nz
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VITRIFIED RUINS IN CALIFORNIA'S DEATH VALLEY
It seems one local character knew how to find the place. Brandon relates that "Death Valley Scotty", an eccentric who spent millions building a castle-estate in the area, was known to go "prospecting" when funds ran low. Death Valley Scotty would check out for a few days of wandering in the nearby Grapevine Mountains, bringing back suspiciously refined-looking gold that he claimed he had prospected. Many believe that he got his gold from the stacked gold bars in the tunnel system beneath Death Valley.
Evidence of a lost civilisation in Death Valley came in a bizarre report of caves and mummies in the Hot Citizen, a Nevada paper, on August 5, 1947. The story ran as follows:
EXPEDITION REPORTS NINE-FOOT SKELETONS
A band of amateur archaeologists announced today they have discovered a lost civilization of men nine feet tall in Californian caverns. Howard E. Hill, spokesman for the expedition, said the civilization may be "the fabled lost continent of Atlantis".
The caves contain mummies of men and animals and implements of a culture 80,000 years old but "in some respects more advanced than ours," Hill said. He said the 32 caves covered a 180-square-mile area in California's Death Valley and southern Nevada.
ARCHAEOLOGISTS SKEPTICAL
"This discovery may be more important than the unveiling of King Tut's tomb," he said. Professional archaeologists were skeptical of Hill's story. Los Angeles County Museum scientists pointed out that dinosaurs and tigers which Hill said lay side by side in the caves appeared on Earth 10,000,000 to 13,000,000 years apart. Hill said the caves were discovered in 1931 by Dr F. Bruce Russell, Beverly Hills physician, who literally fell in while sinking a shaft for a mining claim. "He tried for years to interest people in them," Hill said, "but nobody believed him." Russell and several hobbyists incorporated after the war as Amazing Explorations, Inc. and started digging. Several caverns contained mummified remains of "a race of men eight to nine feet tall," Hill said. "They apparently wore a prehistoric zoot suit--a hair garment of medium length, jacket and knee-length trousers."
CAVERN TEMPLE FOUND
Another cavern contained their ritual hall with devices and markings similar to the Masonic order, he said. "A long tunnel from this temple took the party into a room where," Hill said, "well-preserved remains of dinosaurs, saber-toothed tigers, imperial elephants and other extinct beasts were paired off in niches as if on display. "Some catastrophe apparently drove the people into the caves," he said. "All of the implements of their civilization were found," he said, "including household utensils and stoves which apparently cooked by radio waves." "I know," he said, "that you won't believe that." While of doubtful authenticity, this is an interesting story, to say the least. The last comment about cooking food with radio waves being unbelievable is ironic. That is the one thing that modern readers of the story could certainly believe was true, considering the widespread use of microwave ovens today. Who had heard of them in 1947?
Sodom and Gomorrah meet Hiroshima and Nagasaki
Probably the most famous of all ancient "nuke 'em" stories is the well-known biblical tale of Sodom and Gomorrah:
And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievousI Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah, brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. But his [Lot's] wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of saltI And lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace. (Genesis 18:20; 19:24-26,2
This biblical passage has come to epitomise the destructive power of God's wrath visited on those places which sin. The Bible is very specific about the site of Sodom and Gomorrah plus several other towns; they were in the Vale of Siddim, which was located at the southern end of the Salt Sea (now called the Dead Sea). Other towns in the area, according to the Bible, were Zoar, Admah and Zeboiim (Genesis 14:2). As late as the Middle Ages, a town called Zoar existed in the area.
The Dead Sea is 1,293 feet [394 metres] below sea level and at least 1,200 feet [365 m] deep. The bottom of the sea is therefore about 2,500 feet [762 m] below the level of the Mediterranean. Approximately 25 per cent of the water of the Dead Sea consists of solid ingredients, mostly sodium chloride. Normal ocean water is around 4.6 per cent salt. The Jordan and many smaller rivers empty themselves into this basin, which has no solitary outlet. What its tributaries bring to it in the way of chemical substances remain deposited in the Dead Sea's 500 square miles. Evaporation under the broiling sun takes place on the surface of the sea at a rate of over 230 million cubic feet per day. Arab tradition has it that so many poisonous gases come out of the lake that birds could not fly across it, as they would die before reaching the other side.
The Dead Sea was first explored in modern times in 1848 when W. F. Lynch, an American geologist, led an expedition. He brought ashore from his government research ship two metal boats which he fastened onto large-wheeled carts. Pulled by a long team of horses, his expedition reached the Dead Sea some months later. Lynch and his team discovered that the traditions were correct in that a man could not sink in the sea. They also surveyed the lake, noting its unusual depth and the shallow area or "tongue" at the southern end of the lake. This area is thought to be where the Vale of Siddim was located and the five cities existed. It is possible to see entire forests of trees encrusted with salt beneath the water in this southern part of the lake.
Standard historical theory on the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, such as in The Bible As History by Werner Keller,18 holds that the cities of the Vale of Siddim were destroyed when a plate movement caused the Great Rift Valley--of which the Dead Sea is a part--to shift, and the area at the southern end of the Dead Sea to subside. In the great earthquake there were probably explosions, natural gases issuing forth and brimstone falling like rain. This is likely to have happened about 2000 BC, the time of Abraham and Lot, thinks Keller, though geologists place the event many thousands of years before this. Says Keller:
The Jordan Valley is only part of a huge fracture in the Earth's crust. The path of this crack has meantime been accurately traced. It begins far north, several hundred miles beyond the borders of Palestine, at the foot of the Taurus mountains in Asia Minor. In the south it runs from the south shore of the Dead Sea through the Wadi el-Arabah to the Gulf of Aqabah and only comes to an end beyond the Red Sea in Africa. At many points in this vast depression, signs of intense volcanic activity are obvious. In the Galilean mountains, in the highlands of Transjordan, on the banks of the Jabbok, a tributary of the Jordan, and on the Gulf of Aqabah are black basalt and lava...
The subsidence released volcanic forces that had been lying dormant, deep down along the whole length of the fracture. In the upper valley of the Jordan near Bashan there are still the towering craters of extinct volcanoes; great stretches of lava and deep layers of basalt have been deposited on the limestone surface. From time immemorial the area around this depression has been subject to earthquakes. There is repeated evidence of them and the Bible itself records them...
Did Sodom and Gomorrah sink when perhaps a part of the base of this huge fissure collapsed still further to the accompaniment of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions?
As for the pillars of salt, Keller says:
To the west of the southern shore and in the direction of the Biblical "Land of the South", the Negeb, stretches a ridge of hills about 150 feet high and 10 miles from north to south. Their slopes sparkle and glitter in the sunshine like diamonds. It is an odd phenomenon of nature. For the most part this little range of hills consists of pure rock salt. The Arabs call it Jebel Usdum, an ancient name, which preserves in it the word "Sodom". Many blocks of salt have been worn away by the rain and have crashed downhill. They have odd shapes and some of them stand on end, looking like statues. It is easy to imagine them suddenly seeming to come to life.
These strange statues in salt remind us vividly of the Biblical description of Lot's wife who was turned into a pillar of salt... And everything in the neighbourhood of the Salt Sea is even to this day quickly covered with a crust of salt.
However, Keller himself admits that there is a very serious problem with this theory of a cataclysm sending the Vale of Siddim to the bottom of the Dead Sea: it must have happened many hundreds of thousands, even millions, of years ago--at least according to most geologists. Says Keller:
In particular, we must remember there can be no question that the Jordan fissure was formed before about 4000 BC. Indeed, according to the most recent presentation of the facts, the origin of the fissure dates back to the Oligocene, the third oldest stage of the Tertiary period. We thus have to think in terms not of thousands, but of millions of years. Violent volcanic activity connected with the Jordan fissure has been shown to have occurred since then, but even so we do not get any further than the Pleistocene which came to an end approximately ten thousand years ago. Certainly we do not come anywhere near to the third, still less the second millennium before Christ--the period, that is to say, in which the patriarchs are traditionally placed.
In short, Keller is saying that any geological catastrophe that would have destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah would have had to have happened a million years ago, or so geologists have told him. Keller says that geologists have not found any evidence of a recent catastrophe at the southern end of the Dead Sea, at least not for about 10,000 years. Says Keller:
In addition, it is precisely to the south of the Lisan peninsula, where Sodom and Gomorrah are reported to have been annihilated, that the traces of former volcanic activity cease. In short, the proof in this area of a quite recent catastrophe which wiped out towns and was accompanied by violent volcanic activity is not provided by the findings of the geologists.
So here is the problem: the Dead Sea area may have had a cataclysm that could be the origin of the Old Testament story; however, conservative uniformitarian geologists have said that any such Earth changes must have occurred long before any sort of collective memory of the event.
In late 1999, a new theory was proposed by British Bible scholar Michael Sanders and an international team of researchers who, after several fraught weeks of diving in a mini-submarine, discovered what appears to be the salt-encrusted remains of ancient settlements on the seabed. Sanders told a television crew from BBC/ Channel 4 who were making a documentary about the expedition:
There is a good chance that these mounds are covering up brick structures and are one of the lost cities of the plains, possibly even Sodom or Gomorrah, though I would have to examine the evidence. These Bible stories were handed down by word of mouth from generation to generation before they were written down, and there seems to be a great deal in this one.
Sanders had unearthed a map dating from 1650, which reinforced his belief that the sites of the two cities could be under the northern basin rather than on the southern edge of the Dead Sea. He recruited Richard Slater, an American geologist and expert in deep-sea diving, to take him to the depths of the Dead Sea in the two-man Delta mini- submarine that was involved in the discovery of the sunken ocean-liner, the Lusitania. Sanders's location for Sodom and Gomorrah, in the deep northern part of the Dead Sea, is even more at odds with history and geology than Keller's theory of the cities being at the shallow southern end.
Therefore we come back to the popular theory that these cities were not destroyed in a geological cataclysm but in a man-made (or extraterrestrial-made) apocalypse that was technological in nature. Were Sodom and Gomorrah attacked with atomic weapons, as Hiroshima and Nagasaki were?
Researcher L. M. Lewis, in his book Footprints on the Sands of Time,19 maintains that both Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by atomic weapons and that the salt pillars and high salt content around the Dead Sea are evidence of a nuclear blast. Says Lewis:
When Hiroshima was being rebuilt, stretches of sandy soil were found to have been atomically changed into a substance resembling a glazed silicon permeated by a saline crystalloid. Little blocks of this were cut from the mass and sold to tourists as souvenirs of the town--and of atomic action.
Had an even larger explosion pulverized every stone of every building--and had the complete city disappeared into thin air--there would still have been tell- tale indications of what had occurred on the outskirts of the area of devastation. At some points there would surely be a marked difference in the soil or an atomic change in some object of note.
Lewis maintains that if the pillars of salt at the end of the Dead Sea were ordinary salt, they would have disappeared with the periodic rains. Instead, these pillars are of a special, harder salt, only created in a nuclear reaction such as an atomic explosion.
These pillars of salt have indeed lasted a long time. Not only were they present in ancient times, but are still standing today. Lewis quotes from the historian Josephus, who says in his History of the Jews:
Ibut Lot's wife, continually turning back to view the city as she went from it, although God had forbidden her so to do, was changed into a pillar of salt; for I have seen it, and it remains to this day.
Comments Lewis:
It should be emphasized that Flavius Josephus lived from 37 to approximately 100 AD. As previously stated, Sodom was disintegrated in 1898 BC. How amazing, then, that Josephus should actually have seen the human "pillar of salt" after it had stood for almost 2,000 years! If it had been ordinary salt, it would have disappeared with the first rains.
There may have been many pillars of salt throughout history, but Lewis thinks the evidence supports an atomic blast:
The atomic change of the soil upon which Lot's wife stood and that of the shore of Hiroshima have a similarity that cannot be denied! Both had undergone a sudden atomic conversion which could only have been caused by the instant action of nuclear fission. As those things which equal the same thing must be equal to one another, it is difficult to escape the conviction that as Hiroshima was destroyed, so, by similar means, Sodom was disintegrated and Lot's wife at the same moment atomically changed. Relying on the veracity of Josephus, the only conclusion that can be reached is that Sodom was destroyed by nuclear fission.
The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is puzzling not just because of the destruction but also because of the personalities involved, such as the angel warning Lot to leave the doomed cities. Was Lot warned beforehand that the cities were going to be "nuked" by extraterrestrials or humans with high-tech weapons? Lot was warned to get his family out, but his wife looked back and was blinded by the atomic flash. Perhaps her body was even atomically changed.
At the southern end of the Dead Sea today is a modern chemical plant that looks like an alien base. Strange towers shoot up out of the desert. Bizarre buildings with domes and spires are covered with multi-coloured lights. One expects to see a flying saucer land at any moment. It is the Dead Sea Chemical Works. During the day it looks like an oil refinery or something similar, but at night the lights that are strung about the facility make it seem otherworldly. This huge chemical plant is said to have an endless supply of valuable minerals, including radioactive salts, with which to work. Are some of these chemicals the result of an ancient atomic blast?
Atomic War in Ancient India
These verses are from the Mahabharata (written in ancient Dravidian, then later in Sanskrit) and describe horrific wars fought long before the recorder's lifetime.
% Various omens appeared among the gods: winds blew, meteors fell in thousands, thunder rolled through a cloudless sky. % There he saw a wheel with a rim as sharp as a razor whirling around the soma... Then taking the soma, he broke the whirling machine... % Drona called Arjuna and said: "Accept from me this irresistible weapon called Brahmasira. But you must promise never to use it against a human foe, for if you did it might destroy the world. If any foe who is not a human attacks you, you may use it against him in battleI None but you deserves the celestial weapon that I gave you."
This is a curious statement, as what other kind of foe different from a human might there have been? Are we talking about an interplanetary war?
% I shall fight you with a celestial weapon given to me by Drona. He then hurled the blazing weapon... % At last they came to blows, and seizing their maces struck each otherIthey fell like falling suns. % These huge animals, like mountains struck by Bhima's mace, fell with their heads broken, fell upon the ground like cliffs loosened by thunder.% Bhima took him by the arm and dragged him away to an open place where they began to fight like two elephants mad with rage. The dust they raised resembled the smoke of a forest fire; it covered their bodies so that they looked like swaying cliffs wreathed in mist. % Arjuna and Krishna rode to and fro in their chariots on either side of the forest and drove back the creatures which tried to escape. Thousands of animals were burnt, pools and lakes began to boil... The flames even reached Heaven... Indra without loss of time set out for Khandava and covered the sky with masses of clouds; the rain poured down but it was dried in mid-air by the heat.
Several historical records claim that Indian culture has been around for literally tens of thousands of years. Yet, until 1920, all the "experts" agreed that the origins of the Indian civilisation should be placed within a few hundred years of Alexander the Great's expedition to the subcontinent in 327 BC. However, that was before several great cities like Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro (Mound of the Dead), Kot Diji, Kalibanga and Lothal were discovered and excavated. Lothal, a former port city now miles from the ocean, was discovered in Gujarat, western India, just in the late 20th century.20 These discoveries have forced archaeologists to push back the dates for the origin of Indian civilisation by thousands of years--in line with what the Indians themselves have insisted all along.
A wonder to modern-day researchers, the cities were highly developed and advanced. The way that each city was laid out in regular blocks, with streets crossing each other at right angles and the entire city laid out in sections, gives archaeologists cause to believe that the cities were conceived as a whole before they were built--a remarkable early example of city planning. Even more remarkable is that the plumbing/sewage systems throughout the large cities were so sophisticated--superior to those found in Pakistan, India and many Asian countries today. Sewers were covered, and most homes had private toilets and running water. Furthermore, the water and sewage systems were kept well separated.21, 22, 23
This advanced culture had its own writing, which has never been deciphered. The people used personalised clay seals, much as the Chinese still do today, to officialise documents and letters. Some of the seals found contain figures of animals that are unknown to us today, including an extinct form of the Brahman bull.
Archaeologists really have no idea who the builders were, but their attempts to date the ruins (which they ascribe to the "Indus Valley civilisation", also called "Harappan") have come up with something like 2500 BC and older, but radiation from the wars apparently fought in the area may have thrown off the date.
The Rama Empire, described in the Mahabharata and Ramayana, was supposedly contemporaneous with the great cultures of Atlantis and Osiris in the West.
Atlantis, well known from Plato's writings and ancient Egyptian records, apparently existed in the mid-Atlantic and was a highly technological and patriarchal civilisation.
The Osirian civilisation existed in the Mediterranean basin and northern Africa, according to esoteric doctrine and archaeological evidence, and is generally known as pre-dynastic Egypt. It was flooded when Atlantis sank and the Mediterranean began to fill up with water.
The Rama Empire flourished during the same period, according to esoteric tradition, fading out in the millennium after the destruction of the Atlantean continent.
As noted above, the ancient Indian epics describe a series of horrific wars--wars which could have been fought between ancient India and Atlantis, or perhaps a third party in the Gobi region of western China. The Mahabharata and the Drona Parva speak of the war and of the weapons used: great fireballs that could destroy a whole city; "Kapila's Glance", which could burn 50,000 men to ashes in seconds; and flying spears that could ruin whole "cities full of forts".
The Rama Empire was started by the Nagas (Naacals) who had come into India from Burma and ultimately from "the Motherland to the east"--or so Colonel James Churchward was told. After settling in the Deccan Plateau in northern India, they made their capital in the ancient city of Deccan, where the modern city of Nagpur stands today.
The empire of the Nagas apparently began to extend all over northern India to include the cities of Harappa, Mohenjo-Daro and Kot Diji (now in Pakistan), as well as Lothal, Kalibanga, Mathura and possibly other cities such as Benares, Ayodha and Pataliputra.
These cities were led by "Great Teachers" or "Masters" who were the benevolent aristocracy of the Rama civilisation. Today they are generally called "Priest- Kings" of the Indus Valley civilisation, and a number of statues of these so-called gods have been discovered. In reality, these were apparently men whose mental and psychic powers were of a degree that seems incredible to most people of today. It was at the height of power for both the Rama Empire and Atlantis that the war allegedly broke out, seemingly because of Atlantis's attempt to subjugate Rama.
According to the Lemurian Fellowship lesson materials, the populace surrounding Mu (Lemuria, which predated the other civilisations) eventually split into two opposing factions: those who prized practicality and those who prized spirituality. The citizenry, or educated elite, of Mu itself was balanced equally in these two qualities. The citizenry encouraged the other groups to emigrate to uninhabited lands. Those who prized practicality emigrated to the Poseid Island group (Atlantis), and those who prized spirituality eventually ended up in India. The Atlanteans, a patriarchal civilisation with an extremely materialistic, technologically oriented culture, deemed themselves "Masters of the World" and eventually sent a well-equipped army to India in order to subjugate the Rama Empire and bring it under the suzerainty of Atlantis.
One account of the battle, related by the Lemurian Fellowship, tells how the Rama Empire Priest-Kings defeated the Atlanteans. Equipped with a formidable force and a "fantastic array of weapons", the Atlanteans landed in their vailixi outside one of the Rama cities, got their troops in order and sent a message to the ruling Priest-King of the city that he should surrender. The Priest-King sent word back to the Atlantean General:
We of India have no quarrel with you of Atlantis. We ask only that we be permitted to follow our own way of life.
Regarding the ruler's mild request as a confession of weakness and expecting an easy victory--as the Rama Empire did not possess the technology of war or the aggressiveness of the Atlanteans--the Atlantean General sent another message:
We shall not destroy your land with the mighty weapons at our command, provided you pay sufficient tribute and accept the rulership of Atlantis.
The Priest-King of the city responded humbly again, seeking to avert war:
We of India do not believe in war and strife, peace being our ideal. Neither would we destroy you or your soldiers who but follow orders. However, if you persist in your determination to attack us without cause and merely for the purpose of conquest, you will leave us no recourse but to destroy you and all of your leaders. Depart, and leave us in peace.
Arrogantly, the Atlanteans did not believe that the Indians had the power to stop them, certainly not by technical means. At dawn, the Atlantean army began to march on the city. From a high viewpoint, the Priest-King sadly watched the army advance. Then he raised his arms heavenward, and using a particular mental technique he caused the General and then each officer in order of rank to drop dead in his tracks, perhaps of some sort of heart failure. In a panic, and without leaders, the remaining Atlantean force fled to the waiting vailixi and retreated in terror to Atlantis. Of the sieged Rama city, not one man was lost.
While this may be nothing but fanciful conjecture, the Indian epics go on to tell the rest of the horrible story, and things do not turn out well for Rama. Assuming the above story is true, Atlantis was not pleased at the humiliating defeat and therefore used its most powerful and destructive weapon--quite possibly an atomic-type weapon!
Consider these verses from the ancient Mahabharata:
...(it was) a single projectile Charged with all the power of the Universe. An incandescent column of smoke and flame As bright as the thousand suns Rose in all its splendour...
..it was an unknown weapon, An iron thunderbolt, A gigantic messenger of death, Which reduced to ashes The entire race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas.
..The corpses were so burned As to be unrecognisable. The hair and nails fell out; Pottery broke without apparent cause, And the birds turned white.
After a few hours All foodstuffs were infected... ...to escape from this fire The soldiers threw themselves in streams To wash themselves and their equipment.24
In the way we traditionally view ancient history, it seems absolutely incredible that there was an atomic war approximately 10,000 years ago. And yet, of what else could the Mahabharata be speaking? Perhaps this is just a poetic way to describe cavemen clubbing each other to death; after all, that is what we are told the ancient past was like. Until the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, modern mankind could not imagine any weapon as horrible and devastating as those described in the ancient Indian texts. Yet they very accurately described the effects of an atomic explosion. Radioactive poisoning will make hair and nails fall out. Immersing oneself in water gives some respite, though is not a cure.
Interestingly, Manhattan Project chief scientist Dr J. Robert Oppenheimer was known to be familiar with ancient Sanskrit literature. In an interview conducted after he watched the first atomic test, he quoted from the Bhagavad Gita:
'Now I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds.' I suppose we all felt that way.
When asked in an interview at Rochester University seven years after the Alamogordo nuclear test whether that was the first atomic bomb ever to be detonated, his reply was:
Well, yes, in modern history.25
Great Civilisations Meet their Doom
Incredible as it may seem, archaeologists have found evidence in India and Pakistan, indicating that some cities were destroyed in atomic explosions. When excavations of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro reached the street level, they discovered skeletons scattered about the cities, many holding hands and sprawling in the streets as if some instant, horrible doom had taken place. People were just lying, unburied, in the streets of the city. And these skeletons are thousands of years old, even by traditional archaeological standards. What could cause such a thing? Why did the bodies not decay or get eaten by wild animals? Furthermore, there is no apparent cause of a physically violent death.
These skeletons are among the most radioactive ever found, on par with those at Nagasaki and Hiroshima. At one site, Soviet scholars found a skeleton which had a radioactive level 50 times greater than normal.26
The Russian archaeologist A. Gorbovsky mentions the high incidence of radiation associated with the skeletons in his 1966 book, Riddles of Ancient History.27 Furthermore, thousands of fused lumps, christened "black stones", have been found at Mohenjo- Daro. These appear to be fragments of clay vessels that melted together in extreme heat.
Other cities have been found in northern India that show indications of explosions of great magnitude. One such city, found between the Ganges and the mountains of Rajmahal, seems to have been subjected to intense heat. Huge masses of walls and foundations of the ancient city are fused together, literally vitrified! And since there is no indication of a volcanic eruption at Mohenjo-Daro or at the other cities, the intense heat to melt clay vessels can only be explained by an atomic blast or some other unknown weapon.28, 29, 30 The cities were wiped out entirely.
If we accept the Lemurian Fellowship stories as fact, then Atlantis wanted to waste no more time with the Priest-Kings of Rama and their mental tricks. In terrifying revenge, they utterly destroyed the Rama Empire, leaving no country even to pay tribute to them. The areas around the cities of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro have also been desolated in the past, though agriculture takes place to a limited extent in the vicinity today.
It is said in esoteric literature that Atlantis at the same time, or shortly afterwards, also attempted to subjugate a civilisation extant in the area of the Gobi Desert, which was then a fertile plain. By using so-called scalar wave weaponry and firing through the centre of the Earth, they wiped out their adversaries--and possibly did themselves in at the same time!
Much speculation naturally exists in connection with remote history. We may never actually know the complete truth, though ancient texts still in existence are certainly a good start.
Atlantis met its own doom, according to Plato, by sinking into the ocean in a mighty cataclysm--not too long after the war with the Rama Empire, I imagine.
Kashmir is also connected with the fantastic war that destroyed the Rama Empire in ancient times. The massive ruins of a temple called Parshaspur can be found just outside Srinagar. It is a scene of total destruction. Huge blocks of stone are scattered about a wide area, giving the impression of explosive annihilation.31 Was Parshaspur destroyed by some fantastic weapon during one of the horrendous battles detailed in the Mahabharata?
Another curious sign of an ancient nuclear war in India is a giant crater near Bombay. The nearly circular 2,154-metre-diameter Lonar crater, located 400 kilometres northeast of Bombay and aged at less than 50,000 years old, could be related to nuclear warfare of antiquity. No trace of any meteoric material, etc., has been found at the site or in the vicinity, and this is the world's only known "impact" crater in basalt. Indications of great shock (from a pressure exceeding 600,000 atmospheres) and intense, abrupt heat (indicated by basalt glass spherules) can be ascertained from the site.
Orthodoxy cannot, of course, concede nuclear possibilities for such craters, even in the absence of any material meteorite or related evidence. If such geologically recent craters as the Lonar are of meteoric origin, then why don't such tremendous meteorites fall today? The Earth's atmosphere 50,000 years ago probably was not much different from today's, so a lighter atmosphere cannot be advanced as an hypothesis to explain an immense-sized meteorite, which of course would be considerably reduced by heat oxidisation within a gaseously heavier atmosphere. A theory was advanced by American space consultant Pat Frank, to the effect that some of the huge craters on the Earth may be scars from ancient nuclear explosions!32
The echoes of ancient atomic warfare in southern Asia continue to this day, with India and Pakistan currently threatening each other. Modern India is proud of its nukes, likening them to "Rama's Arrow". Similarly, Pakistan would love to use its Islamic atomic bombs on India. Ironically, Kashmir, possibly the site of an earlier atomic war, is the focus of this conflict. Will the past repeat itself in Pakistan and India?
There is always the possibility that this has all happened before. Dij` vu!
Endnotes 18. Keller, Werner, The Bible As History, Hodder & Stoughton, London, 1956. 19. Lewis, L.M., Footprints on the Sands of Time, Signet Books, New York, 1975. 20. Service, Alistair, Lost Worlds, Arco Publishing, New York, 1981. 21. ibid. 22. Kolosimo, Peter, Timeless Earth, University Press, Secaucus, New Jersey, 1974. 23. Reader's Digest, The World's Last Mysteries, Reader's Digest Association, Inc., Pleasantville, New York, 1976. 24. Berlitz, Charles, Mysteries of Forgotten Worlds, Doubleday, New York, 1972. 25. ibid. 26. ibid. 27. Gorbovsky, A., Riddles of Ancient History, Soviet Publishers, Moscow, 1966. 28. Kolosimo, ibid. 29. Tomas, Andrew, We Are Not the First, Souvenir Press, London, 1971. 30. Gorbovsky, ibid. 31. Childress, David Hatcher, Lost Cities of China, Central Asia & India, Adventures Unlimited Press, Stelle, Illinois, 1991. 32. Collyns, Robin, Laserbeams From Star Cities, Sphere Books, London, 1971.
-- mmmm (mmmm@mmmm.com), October 14, 2000.
Nik = CPR??
-- (both@mentally.ill), October 14, 2000.
Nik-CPR? No. Nik was a regular on the old TB2000. Since then he has been the rational voice on Ezboard. He doesnt seem to understand that his message has been posted here, by others, at least 50 times. It is nothing new. It was discussed once and rejected. Since then it becomes a source of jokes. Most of the people on the board are gone and he is unlikely to get a reply for some time. They are having a good discussion of Ezboard. He should return. Seems to me he should accept Dogs suggestion if he wants discussion. This isnt Ezboard; there are people here that arent at the bottom of the food chain.DB
-- DB (Debunker@nomore.xxx), October 14, 2000.
Nik -- I check in here MUCH more infrequently than before, so it was a pleasant surprise to see your latest rants.All you pussies that think you should "talk nice", using honey rather than vinegar -- what that means to me is that you don't agree. Or you don't realize that most people (like yourselves) are idiots, and neither honey or vinegar works, only a kick in the ass.
-- A (A@AisA.com), October 14, 2000.
Hi big A and little a. Nice to see yall are still around. They don't let me cuss over at EZ-Board so I have to come over here and kick a little commie ass from time to time. You can spot the really dumb ones pretty easy, they holler racist militia Jesus freak every time you pin their sorry asses to the wall and they can't think up a valid argument. Funny, I never realized a Socialist was an entirely different race. Here I been thinking they were just mentally impaired, criminally inclined, or possibly a new species of bloodsucker spawned from anal sex with a vampire. Really I guess it's a combination of all the above, but I have discovered that driving a sharpened pencil wrapped in the hard light of truth through their hearts irritates and confuses the hell out of them. Fucking vermin.
-- Nikoli Krushev (Doomsday@y2000.com), October 15, 2000.
"They don't let me cuss over at EZ-Board so I have to come over here and kick a little commie ass from time to time."No you don't. You think you're SO fucking tough with your fucking guns. You talk tough as long as you have your guns, but without them you are nothing but a weak, spineless coward. Do us a favor, spare us your "ass-kicking" and go back to EZ with the rest of the mental defectives like Zog and Chuck, the "night driver". LOL
-- (nik@has.no.balls), October 15, 2000.
"You talk tough as long as you have your guns, but without them you are nothing but a weak, spineless coward." Which brings us back to the origional point of this thread. While not exactly the words I would have choosen they still do make the point. Visualize if you will these words being spoken by a trio of home invaders in post gun control America. They could be armed robbers, junkies, sexual predators, or your local police. Possibly all of the above.You might also hear these words uttered as you board the boxcar headed to the camp. Possibly even in a foreign language, most likely Chinese. It really doesn't matter who speaks them to you though, as you are equally fucked in any case. Demonize, disarm, and destroy. Old as government, tried and true. Idiocy abounds in the land of the free.
-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), October 15, 2000.