If it's a judgement call, reasonable people can differ

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I think that there has been a huge amount of anger and indignation expended, on Y2K and other matters, by failure to recognize what is a judgement call and what is not.

For example, the joke that Celia has brought up. I think that this is more of a judgement call than she does. I personally am an Episcopalian, far on the spectrum from the born again people or those close to them. For these people, however, their experience is so important to them that any joking about it, however innocuous, is offensive.

On the other hand, that joke really was pretty innocuous. So the teller should have maybe been chastised for lack of sensitivity and then we all let the matter drop. But I don't agree with the view that "who could possibly quarrel with that joke."

But my larger point, and I do have one, is that this is not a case where there are just boobs on one side (anti joke) and the other side has all the smart people.

The parallels with the wild and woolly Y2K debate are too obvious to go into.

This also pertains to the issue of censorship. I am not really very well equipped to talk about censorship on the old TB 2000 forum, since I was absent during just about all of November and December of '99. When I rejoined that forum, I learned that someone called Lady Logic had come and gone, and some were going crazy about what they called Nazi censorship. Based on what I observed prior to November '99, Diane in my judgement call was anything but a Nazi. We are not, good people, talking about a decently behaved bunch of pollies who just want to get the truth out. Judgement call once again.

-- Peter Errington (petere@ricochet.net), October 10, 2000


Very good thread Peter, and I agree with much of what you have to say here. Since I "think" that you are referring to a thread I was involved in, there are a few points of yours I would like to address. The original thread I am referring to is at: http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003uDh

Now you wrote, "For these people, however, their experience is so important to them that any joking about it, however innocuous, is offensive." Well, not sure who "these people" are, but if I am supposed to be one of them, let me respond ;)

I think many devout Christians joke a good deal about things, including their religion. What some Christians take offense to are jokes told by those who don't hold the religion and are basically making fun of the religion.

(To look at this in a different context, subsitute your own beliefs in the paragraph above and see if you see some truth to it.) FYI, I have heard the joke several times, unfortunately frequently from those with Jewish heriteage who are not very religious or are athiests, but never from devout Jews. It was a bit humorous the first time, but not so anymore, it has become a way to make fun of Christianity for many....

Anyway, your point is well made, this was certainly an individual judgment call. FYI, I responded late in the original thread, so I repost my responses to Celia and Anita below:

Anita, You wrote David: I was well aware of the Christian view of Lieberman, both before and after the fund-raiser where Lieberman didn't make a stink over a harmless joke.

Are you sure you aren't stereotyping people here, Anita? I can assure you that the views of all Christians on Lieberman aren't all the same, just as all blacks don't all vote Democratic. I personally like Lieberman, although I disagree with some of his political stands, especially now that he has to tow the Gore line. If Lieberman had a different view on just a couple of issues, I would much prefer a Cheney/Lieberman ticket. I voted for a black man in the Republican primary. Somehow I don't think this quite fits the stereotypical view some have of a Christian.

And about the "joke", this is an area where resonable people can disagree. When you call it harmless, that doesn't make it fact, just your opinion. When I called it "bashing", that too was just my opinion, and I stand by it based on my faith.

BTW, were you aware of George's funding role in the movie "Hitcher"? [I THINK that was the name.] It was the one where the woman was torn apart by being tied to two trucks that drove away in opposite directions with her tied to both.

No, I was not, but what a coincidence, I saw this movie and actually thought it was a good horror flick with excellent acting by Rutger Hauer as a murdering psychopath. Here's a review:


Not sure of your point, but I would be against promoting this movie for kids, or showing it on primetime TV, if thats what you wan't to know.

Were you aware that Cheney's wife wrote a book entitled, I think Sisters wherein she discussed the lives of Lesbians and the beauty of their closeness?

I'm suprised you didn't mention that Cheney has a Lesbian daughter as well, but in any case it is not applicable to the thread subject or my response.

Celia, Bush's religion was not "bashed." Stated as fact, but merely an opinion Celia.

Tell me exactly how the joke Larry David told is Christian bashing.

Celia, I didn't have to read the article as you suggested to find out "exactly" what the joke was, it has already been reported in the press. I can tell you why I personally find it offensive, and that is quite simple - it makes fun of someone who has faith in Christ. Now, that is my opinion, and reasonable people may disagree.

Finally, if "not flying in Peoria" means not flying with bigoted, thick-skinned Christian Republicans, yes, I would have to agree.

Celia, would the opposite of this bigoted stereotype of yours be "thin skinned Jewish Liberal Democrats" or "thin skinned Athiest Libertarians" or "black skinned AME Zionist Democrats" Celia, you are the pot that called the kettle black with this one. Again, just my opinion, lol....

Politics, "phewwww"...brings out the worst sometimes!

-- David (David@bzn.com), October 10, 2000.

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