OK, this might be a bit preliminary, but it is not far away. MARP is going to die soon. People are bitching and complaining constantly. At any given time, several fights are going on. Yes, fights. You cannot call them discussions anymore. This has gotten way past the point of discussions. Fights about PlayChoice 10 games, fights about T5 games, fights about KoA. And in all cases, the, not necessarily distinct, groups are ignoring the authority of the person in charge. People are blatantly ignoring rules instead of taking them up with the coordinators. Then they get mad when they are caught breaking the rules. Then they question the rules all of a sudden. Why participate in anything if you do not care to uphold the rules? The rules are there to protect you. But the rulebreakers do not care about that. They are above the law. They can break any rule if it pleases them, but they start yelling when someone else beats them by breaking a rule.

Continue this kind of behaviour, and MARP will die soon. And the only thing we can be glad about is that this is an internet community, because, otherwise, MARP would not be the only casualty; people would die as well.

Man, if all this energy were put into playing games instead of fighting, then we'd see some great scores on MARP, and MARP would flourish instead of being on its deathbed. It's too bad. It was fun while it lasted. I am not ready to leave MARP (yet), but *MARP* is going to leave *us*. Rest In Peace, MARP.

Jeers, Ben Jos.

-- Ben Jos Walbeehm (walbeehm@walbeehm.com), September 19, 2000

Answers

Hmmm you have some points there Ben Jos.. I agree that there are too many arguments coming up all the time..

Come one folks! Stop the arguments,(not the discusions) be friends,play games and play them well!!

Regards

QRS

-- QRS (qrs@telia.com), September 19, 2000.

Hmmmm, all good points Ben Jos. Still, I'de like to complement those reasons with a couple more.

About the rules, yes, the rules protect players but just like laws, when a rule annoys more people that it pleases, it has to be changed to fit the very people it rules. So my suggestion here would be, don't look at rules as if they are unbreakable. If people break them all the time, take time to consider if the rule really makes sence, even if the conclusion is that yes, the rule does make sence.

Another thing that kinda bothers me is the disrespect for the user. Say I recorded a inp. Say I spent a couple of hours recording it. Say I broke a rule. MARP's staff then deletes the inp with ZERO feedback to the user. Sure, the user should know the rules, but many of us submit (submited?) inps for the fun of it, and sometimes are not aware of the zillion rules (or 10, or 5, or whatever number of rules). If a system was built that notifies the user when the record if broken, or a new inp submited, or a lot of other options, how hard can it be to inform the user that he did a mistake or broke a rule when submiting the inp? Just deleting it is plain rude. When I spoke about this to the people in charge, I was told that takes 'too much time'. Hmmm, can it take more time than the user spent recording it?

Just my 1/2 a cent. Sure, users misbehave sometimes, but try and see their point of view every once in a while.

So basically what I'm saying is: Lighten up, have fun, be happy: the whole flower power stuff :) Perhaps this way MARP can be saved.

-- bubble (bubble@mail.pt), September 19, 2000.

Considering how things are looking now, I agree, Ben Jos. It's sad to see players of this calibre (spell check? :) ) fighting over something as petty as games. However, there are some people who are not fully aware of the fact they are breaking the rules. Let's look at all the different fights, and let's resolve them as fast as we can (or at least get all the perspectives):

SMB and Tommi. I'm sure his intentions were pure, but QT snapped on him very quickly (this is not meant to be offensive to QT, so please don't take it that way. I'm just saying it like I see it on the message, ok? Nothing against ya, ol' buddy :) ). Now, I can see why Tommi should have taken this with the editors over the rules, but with his request for a public vote, he's giving more people a chance to throw in their opinion, even though we've done this before. What this all boils down to is SMB itself, and why we play it. There shouldn't directly be a vote for how many ticks to use, but what to play for: Finish the game, or points. I'm sure that all of us could do both, but there might be players out there that are not familiar with it. There you have it, all the perspectives in the SMB fight.

T5: I don't see why there is a fight over this. Let's get the facts for this:

1. Moon Patrol and Metal Slug are two different games. Moon Patrol is totally side scrolling, has no bosses, and loops; Metal Slug has hostages, bosses, vertical scrolling, etc.

2. Elevator Action is seen as a shooter, as well as Moon Patrol and Metal Slug. I don't see why there is a problem. Read the above reasoning, but add this: Elevator Action is pretty much ONLY vertical scrolling.

OK, that's taken care of, I believe.

KoA: Very touchy subject for me, since I've been trying to back Chris Parsley up in this tourny. On a quick side note, Chris, please understand that I am not trying to be mean to you, I'm just stating what I see again. No hard feelings, ok? :) ANYWAY, here's what I'm seeing:

1. Chris did not check with the editors for any tools to monitor the games' inps.

2. Chris did not check to see if Arabian plays back on WinTG.

3. Vaz has snapped at Chris for wanting TGMame. According to Chris, this tourny is pretty much for World Records with TG, and Chris said something about talking with Walter Day about records and KoA. Using TGMame would make sure the inps are valid (refer to #1 for more on this). There has been complaints before with TGMame and something about Nicola Salmoria, so I don't think we should revive this topic.

So, in conclusion, these are the fights that are taking place. Everyone who is involved, if I haven't directed an apology to you already, then I do it right now. Sometimes my opinion is very apparent, and I'm trying to hide it; other times, I stayed as neutral as possible. But please, this can not be the death of MARP. I mean, come on, I've only been here since May, and this isn't enough time to become famous! *joking around, of course :) * Please, everyone, have a little more respect for each other (man, this sounds cheesy....), and maybe we can pick up MARP's heartbeat.

Sincerely,

J.D. "The Head of ER for MARP *joking*" Lowe

P.S. Yes, BenJos, too much bitching. Does this qualify as that? :)

-- J.D. Lowe (jedidrunkenllama@hotmail.com), September 19, 2000.

Folks, I logged off at 2:30am CDT last night (no more CDT arguements, please...) and came back on today at noon to 24 new posts, ouch! I perfectly agree with BenJos and the like that ppl are wanting to pound MARP into oblivion. I don't want to see that happen, and that is why I created the blasted KoA to begin with. Now, JD, I know I love ya, but A) I did check for inp checking programs, but was refused it (the person knows who they are, and me and the other person have made a running joke of it ;-)) B) I did check to see if Arabian would play back, and it did. It seems certain ppl had trouble with it, and was dealt on a case by case basis.

All I can say on the issue is this, people stop the blasted bickering and get back to what we are here for, playing the GAMES!!! ;-) CP

PS = Where is the person for change from thoughts? I only have a twenty.

-- Chris Parsley (cparsley1@hotmail.com), September 19, 2000.

Gee, Chris, I didn't know you cared ;)

wow, first of all, I didn't think that people would respond as fast as I could crank a response out, and a tip of my hat goes to QRS and Bubble :)

Second, I looked at my post...WOW! Sheesh, I have got to stop typing so much......

Third (directed to Parsley :) ), I didn't realize that you had checked all the stuff; I was going off of my memory of discussions past (*ghost voice*I am the ghost of discussions past...) This is not meant to be an attack, but a suggestion. I don't know if Vaz and Jazz (rhyming names......coincidence????...yeah, I guess :) ) should be DQed since they didn't use the right version of MAME. There was a lot of emphasis on .36 on the last round, and downloading another version might have been tedious. If you just need their inps to be checked, I'll check Jazz's (I have DOS MAME.36, I just need to remember to check it) if it's not too late :)

To finish yet another unnecessarily long post, let me paraphrase what everyone has said:

STOP FIGHTING!!!!!!!!!

Sincerely,

J.D. Lowe

-- J.D. Lowe (jedidrunkenllama@hotmail.com), September 19, 2000.

Great. Now even this is turning into a fight. I purposely did not go into details because those might be used by people to fuel the fights even more. I've had enough. I'm not going into addressing things that people say now to blame others and make themselves look better.

People obviously missed the whole point of my post that started this thread. Well, like I said, I've had enough. I am going to ignore this board for a while. It's becoming bad for my health. Don't bother replying. I won't read it.

Cheers, Ben Jos.

-- Ben Jos Walbeehm (walbeehm@walbeehm.com), September 19, 2000.

Unfortunately, MARP died a long time ago. I remember when it used to be a lot of fun, with players like Beejay, Krool, JoustGod and Angry contributing regulary without any fights or bitching. Nowadays everyone is ultra suspicious, throwing accusations left right and centre, players moaning and bitching about everything under the sun, editors who let their so called 'power' go to their heads, etc...

But as BBH said a long time ago, 'Viva La Marp'. I hope it can survive.

-- JSW (usagi@dingoblue.net.au), September 19, 2000.

Hahah i don4t know what to say about this...hmmm I think that most of os MARPERS tend to react to much about small things all the time... Come on now fellow MARPERS! Let4s just be friends and play games ok?

Ben Jos: Even if you don4t see this post I hope that you come back and join the discussions here! We all need ya you know!

ps But Ben Jos, I really don4t see a fight going on on this thread do you? (don4t be mad at me now) Maybe you are overreacting about this? Everything will be fine here and MARP will not die folks!

Regards

QRS

-- QRS (qrs@telia.com), September 19, 2000.

Since this board has become a mess and apparently some IRC meeting is being called to address this madness (at least, that's what I'm assuming) there's just one thing I wanted to comment on.

I wholeheartedly agree with Bubble's statement about how players should receive a notice if one of their scores is DQ'ed for whatever reason. I mean, think about it... is there anybody here who checks up on all their recordings every day? No? Without checking the database for your recordings, there's a chance you may not know that one of your scores was affected. The changes are only listed on the "Up" page, and even then it only holds 50 entries... a player moving a bunch of recordings to Deleted could easily wipe out an editor changing your score.

Case in point, I for the longest time did not know that my Intrepid score was zero'ed out. I was not informed in any way, whether by mail or by IRC, about the fact that all the scores had been wiped out because of emulation issues in previous betas. I don't care for the game THAT much and my score wasn't that great, I'll confess to recording it for leaderboard points a long time ago. So losing that score isn't a big deal to me. But just a little mail notice about how the scores were subject to deletion would've made me happier than having to find out on my own.

I will say this much though, I greatly appreciate Chad's efforts to keep me in check when there's a problem with one of my recordings :) The other editors, well, hope you're listening. You know you guys are still cool by me too.

Oh, and JSW nailed it in his post - the old MARP is pretty much dead. The site has changed a lot in the last two and a half years... good in some ways, bad in others. Since this was supposed to be a short post and I don't want to stir up more trouble, I'll stop now.

-Viva la MARP... please....

-- BBH (lordbbh@aol.com), September 20, 2000.

Just a couple things: players are not notified if scores are DQ'ed, but generally are notified if their scores are deleted. This isn't really deliberate malice on the part of the Editors--to be honest, two of us are trying to learn the scripts well enough to put some kind of a system in place. It isn't easy.

As for Intrepid, it was a rare occasion, as only two games that I am aware of have seen a mass zeroing because of beta problems: Intrepid and Bullfight (Japan). This one was my fault. I posted about the problem to the message board (either once or twice, I forget) and nobody responded. Period. So I didn't think it was a very big issue for anyone.

I don't think MARP is dead, it's just in one of those transition periods it hits every 6 months or so. However, as a number of players have mentioned, the old MARP is dead in many ways. It was dying when I arrived over a year ago, as several key players were on their way out, including, essentially, the first rules coordinator, a player I very much respect and would have enjoyed the opportunity to play against.

There was a time when MARP worked alsmot completely on the honor system. Hell, even screenshots were allowed if your .inp didn't play back. But by mid-year '99, serious problems were starting to form. A few players had started looking for ways to take advantage of others at MARP. Three top 10 or former top 10 players have had over 300 recordings deleted (total) because they were obviously played subspeed. One of these players used to be the #1 player at MARP, a player who miraculously went from 'pretty good' to 'unbeatable.' The message boards had become a frequent vent for players not happy with not having rules, players not happpy with someone's .inp, payers not happy with other players, etc. People said MARP was going to die.

The a few months later, it looked like we were going to lose our hosting. Drastic measures were taken to cut back the space required by the scripts. Fights erupted among payers as to what an 'acceptable' score was (an issue that I happened to be on the losing side of) MARP was, again, pronounced about to die. It didn't.

People who love games will keep coming back to MARP. I took a break during T1 when the frustration over the rules (yes, I've been frustrated by rules here too) and the cheating got too bad (if you think all us Editors are chummy, you should have seen the fights Pat Laffaye and I had over Us vs. Them), and simply left the site for a few weeks. Many other players have taken these sabbaticals; some haven't or won't return. If you want to blame the Editors for this, than fine, that's part of what we have to accept as our job. And I hope you'll forgive me if I sometimes pay more attention to other players helping to confirm recordings, or pointing things out, or discussing things with me on #marp, than I do to the complaints on the message board. Like boxster said in his other thread, somebody has to run the show. If you don't want the Editors to do it, then someone is going to have to find away to grant other people score and site access without converting #marp into total anarchy. The players who are Editors right now are Editors because they believe in a vision of MARP that is fair for all players involved, and is true to the maxim 'one coin, most skill'. Gameboy9 and I debated this the other day after the mess with Tommi: whether the vote was for a suspension of the rules or a violation of MARP's spirit--I strongly feel the latter.

I'm sorry that we had to sacrifice some fun at MARP. But I'm not sorry for what it's become. Players posting their scores here, for the most part, can be confident that where there scores show up is a fair representation of their skill level, and not worry that someone has cheated the system to beat them. A few players here have accused the Editors of being elitist: fair enough, we are. We have to be. Every single complaint about MARP affects us, and we have to make decisions, often ones we know are going to annoy or anger players. Is what is being said a priority, or someone's personal agenda? An example with the pc_10 games: I discussed the issue with most players, and everyone seemed content to wait one beta until we could up the time from the dips. Then when one player who wasn't in the loop cries 'foul', everyone forgets their resolution and starts yelling. I'm no better, in many ways. I don't like being told what I can and can't do any more than anyone else, especially when I HAVE to do certain things to preserve the rules. As JSW said, sometimes we get swelled heads, and have to be reminded that our opinions are worth the same as everyone else's. Well, I think the community does a pretty good job of that.

The Editors are always ultimately accountable to the rules of MARP and the MARP community. The day we aren't is the day MARP dies. I don't know what gameboy9 has planned for Sunday--none of us do--but I hope players will attend and discuss things with him.

Sincerely,

Q.T.Quazar, MARP Rules Coordinator

-- Q.T.Quazar (qan@home.com), September 20, 2000.

Stop blaming me QT. If you really feel that you have to, send me a message personally.

All I did was to place a vote on a subject that I honestly think was necessary to make something happen on that issue. Why change dip switches, when all we want is actually unlimited time. If you can't see that, you haven't played those games.

Are rules for players, or players for rules?

I read message board regularly, and have never noticed that we can no longer place votings at msg board, nor did I know of "secret" editors votings where everything seems to be actually decided.

Voting on PC times continues still, I'll check the outcome tomorrow, and make my own inp submission decisions based on that.

Marp is dead, long live MARP

-- Tommi (tiihoto@hotmail.com), September 21, 2000.

I am new of MARP know about only 3 month or so.

but I love here.

-- Hisa-Chan (weavuspert@yahoo.co.jp), September 21, 2000.