OTFR didn't get to all of the attacked posts - Heroes and Cowardsgreenspun.com : LUSENET : TB2K spinoff uncensored : One Thread
The debate about the non-event was settled to nearly everyone's satisfaction 9.5 months ago. I have enjoyed reading about the influences of the influencial recently. Who were the heroes? Who were the zeroes?
I believe those who were literally persecuted for their right-ness deserve the most credit, though I will exclude myself from their esteemed company. And those individuals are the people whose names can still be found proudly displayed inred lettering at the Hysterium (may they ever remain as a memorial to the historically-proven correct).
But also, others, who, though not so visibly the victims of fascism that passed for moderation at the Hysterium, deserve recognition. Though my list is incomplete, I would like to mention CD, Y2K Pro, CPR, Mr. Poole, Mr. Davis, and Patricia. I found their individual styles of writing informative and entertaining. Especially entertaining was Mr. Poole's hoax that most doomers fell for hook, line, and sinker! What a laugh!
At the top of this list, if for no other reason than he should have known better, is Mr. Edward Yourdon. The only question remaining for me about the entire debacle is "Why did Yourdon do it?"
I do not believe the man stupid, but I cannot dismiss the possibility. Was it ego, then? A chance to appear on national television a few times? An opportunity to sell some more depressing and complaining books about an industry - his industry - for goodness' sake? I admit I am stymied.
There are others, to be sure, but I don't think I'll mention them. They don't utilise their old aliases anymore - an admission of their shame, in my opinion - and a proper one, at that. They "escaped" into "Ed-World," where they can follow the writings of the Ed without fear of dissent...and yet, alas, dissent followed and continues...so very very sad. Yet every now and again one will run out from beneath the protective cover of Ed-World and post here or there...only under another alias...the only word for them is "cowards."
-- Andy Ray (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 18, 2000
This was mildly interesting the first time you posted it.
-- (email@example.com), September 18, 2000.
How is Yourdon a coward? Granted he might have knowingly mislead people, which would make him a snake. But, how do you arrive at the conclusion he was a coward?
-- James Lockabrie (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 18, 2000.
How is Yourdon a coward? Don't know if Yourdan is a coward. I do know that when confronted, his response is banning. As one of the original banned ones [banned for attempting to disagree with Ed]. Is this a coward? Don't know. Is it someone who found no profit in discussing the subject? Don't know.
It is up to you to decide.
-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), September 18, 2000.
It must be real tiresome to keep this game up
soon and very soon they will all know and then what?
-- (email@example.com), September 18, 2000.
then we break out the wine and cheese, of course.
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 18, 2000.
they will all know what?
justice: feeling a bit paranoid/schizo today?
-- cin (cin@=0.)), September 18, 2000.
Andy Ray, you are one of the heroes of Y2k. You're a hero because you did what you believed was your civic duty.
However, different people have different ideas about what their civic duty is. For some it's being a Democrat or Republican, Labour or Conservative. There did happen to be a difference in opinion last year about what the proper national policy should be for Y2k in regards to awareness and preparedness for individuals and families.
Although I thought it was a bad idea to ban the people whose names were in red lettering (because it would be controversial and make the flame wars even worse), I do not feel sorry for them. One reason I don't is because they were on a forum they knew wasn't conceived and started with them in mind. It would be like a Republican going to the Democratic National Convention, louding accusing the Democrats there of screwing up the country with their policies, and then the Republican feeling hurt...first when booed and later when escorted outside.
For the record, though, I had no role in getting the red lettering people banned.
I believe those who were literally persecuted for their right-ness deserve the most credit. . . .
It would be for their rightness if these people had kept it a fact based discussion, but more often than not their tactics of choice were ad hominem ones, or trying to get MIT to shut the forum down, or HTML tricks or spamming.
I do agree there were 'doomers' just as extreme and unfair too, however.
Especially entertaining was Mr. Poole's hoax that most doomers fell for hook, line, and sinker!
I didn't see anyone on that thread take Poole's message as proof of anything, and there were some technically oriented people there who were suspicious of the post. It was spotted as a phony quickly, in my opinion. To see it, go to...
Why The Power Will Fail In 2000
The only question remaining for me about the entire debacle is "Why did Yourdon do it?"
Why did Yourdon do what? I shouldn't try to speak for the man since I don't know him and have never talked to him, but I do know he never predicted Y2k would be a '10' nor did he predict a collapse of civilization. I took his basic message to be that Y2k problems of varying degrees of severity and duration were possible in differing locales and differing sectors of the economy. Did Ed Yourdon ever claim to know how much food and water people would need?
I think Ed Yourdon wanted people to think about Y2k, consider the risks, follow the news and make their own judgement on how much preparation was prudent. His book took a risk management approach to Y2k.
There are others, to be sure, but I don't think I'll mention them. They don't utilise their old aliases anymore - an admission of their shame, in my opinion - and a proper one, at that.
I wouldn't make too big of a deal out of that, Andy Ray. You've never used your real name, and some people like contributing to discussions without getting bogged down in the name calling and flame wars.
They "escaped" into "Ed-World," where they can follow the writings of the Ed without fear of dissent...and yet, alas, dissent followed and continues...so very very sad. Yet every now and again one will run out from beneath the protective cover of Ed-World and post here or there...only under another alias...the only word for them is "cowards."
I've noticed most messages here by those who think they had good reasons for taking precautions for Y2k are posted in response to threads started by 'pollys'. 'Doomers' don't start threads about Y2k nearly as much as 'pollys' do; and cpr starts more new threads about Y2k than all the 'doomers' and 'pollys' combined.
Also, I'm sure there are people who post here who post even more messages on EZBoard, but don't assume that's always true. I for one have never posted anything on EZBoard -- not once. Zero. Zip. Nada. I do not have an account/password there. I don't like EZBoard's software, and there is a greater difference of opinion here than over there. I do like hearing both sides of an argument and am more likely to find that here.
Andy Ray, I'm not saying the way I saw Y2k was the way you should have seen Y2k; everyone saw it differently. That was especially true of TB2000 where one's opinion of the place was likely to be influenced by what threads one considered to be important enough to read. Some wanted to read humor threads; others, news threads or maybe threads about growing food; and then there were some who actually wanted to participate in threads with flames.
The heroes of Y2k are those who thought what they were doing was their civic duty, regardless of what they thought Y2k's outcome might be, and who used reasoned arguments and information in support of their opinions.
The zeroes of Y2k are those who, instead of using facts and information to make their points, relied on attitude, name calling and flames to try to change minds.
When you think about it, all of us have wasted our time on Y2k. There were very, very few reported problems in January but there were also no bank runs, no empty grocery store shelves caused by panic, and no cases that I know of of 'doomers' going postal on neighbors because the rollover had gone so well.
The flame wars on TB2000 were a tempest in a teapot. Government, business and most of the population did not rely on Gary North or Ed Yourdon for their information about Y2k. I also doubt there was ever much chance of widespread, public panic, especially if one believed there was no chance of noticeable problems happening--either at the rollover or at spike dates like April 1, 1999.
If you ask the average non-Internet using person if there were Y2k problems in Jan. 2000, they would say no. Similarly, if you asked them if they saw signs of Y2k panic in January 2000, they would say no to that too.
I don't think what you thought about Y2k or what I thought about Y2k, Andy Ray, ever had much of a chance of determining what would happen to the average non-Internet using person. Both of us wasted our time if you look at it that way.
I'd say it's time all of us start talking about something else.
-- (people@Events.IDEAS), September 19, 2000.
IF difficulty of question >=.0001
WriteLn "I have 35 years expertness in systems so I am a World Wide Authority and everything I know tells me software projects don't come in on time. So there.";
-- Attach Pollies Leader (LeaderMan@AttackPollies.org), September 19, 2000.
Good going, "Attach [sic] Pollies Leader". The fact that you can't even spell your own handle correctly says volumes about your general competence level.
-- ABC (email@example.com), September 19, 2000.
Engineers and doctors are some of the worst spellers I have ever worked for. How they ever earned college degrees is still a mystery to me.
-- execsec (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 20, 2000.
execsec, ever hear of the seven knowledges? People have degrees of knowledge in each of these seven areas. It's an interesting read.
Your comment sounds very bitter. Are you jealous of people with degrees? Look inside yourself for the answer.
-- Envy (email@example.com), September 20, 2000.