Who ever decided Playchoice games not having a time over 300? I thought most of the players/Playchoice 10 submitters did not want any restrictions timewise, nevertheless someone has deleted inps with time over 300. What kind of democracy is that, hah? There must have been some confusion between terms "tick/time" / credit. I don't want a long thread of conversation here, the subject has been on msg-board allready, just vote, thank you.

let's say this vote is closed on friday 12.00 CET, after that we'll see if we can submit with or without timelimit.

To move on the subject you can vote here:

1. Playchoice games should have a timelimit of 300 2. No timelimits for Playchoice games 3. other timelimit, how long? 4. something else

I vote for 2

-- Tommi Tiihonen (tiihoto@hotmail.com), September 18, 2000

Answers

I think that QT already has posted the rules for the pc-games Tommi.. I also vote for nr-2, but I think that QT was talking about changing the dipswitch to more "tick time" instead.

Regards

QRS

-- QRS (qrs@telia.com), September 18, 2000.

CDT , CET , GMT , ... What else ? Would it be possible to adopt only ONE time system ? Personnally, I completely ignore what is CDT ( used for knockout tournament instead of GMT and I still wonder why ! )or CET ... Time is not universal, of course, but the most generally used is GMT, so why not use it ? Dont forget that MARP has been initiated and brilliantly built by an english, and Greenwich is in England !!

Cheers,

Lagavulin.

-- Lagavulin (darre@cybercable.fr), September 18, 2000.

Lagavulin, your point is??? CDT is my local time zone, Central USA. That's why it's there, to be easier to me, yah I may go some day to GMT, but not yet. About the vote, while it looks to be un-official, I am perfectly happy with the 300 ticks until the sticks are labled, and even then I may be pressed to move it from 300. (I can move it to 150 ticks if you want to play even tougher, I know the switches for that one.)

-- Chris Parsley (cparsley1@hotmail.com), September 18, 2000.

I voted against one credit only when it came to the editors(and I lost 3 - 1) - so this probably won't matter I'm sorry to say - but I might as well toss myself in and be consistant and vote for #2.

-- Gameboy9 (goldengameboy@yahoo.com), September 18, 2000.

the time limit does not affect the skill needed to obtain a high score!!

I vote to remove the 300 tick option!!!!!!!!

GG

-- game guru (gameguru@cableinet.co.uk), September 18, 2000.

If you know the how to make the dipswitch lower the time why can4t you tell me how to make the "tick time" be 600 instead of 150 Chris?

Then the problems would be solved I think.. I can finish smb within 600 ticks I think..

Regards

QRS

-- QRS (qrs@telia.com), September 18, 2000.

I vote one credit only (300 ticks), #1.

-- LordGaz (garyjlee@hotmail.com), September 18, 2000.

The time limit was put by Nintendo in the original boards just to suck people's money - I don't see why we should care of a time limit, if in almost all games currently supported (I didn't play them all yet) you get a game over when you lose all of your lives, just like the any other arcade game.

So my vote goes to option #2.

Go for it, Tommi.

-- Vaz (mrvaz@inwind.it), September 18, 2000.

It seems a bunch of people want a no time limit rule just so they can finish Super Mario Brothers. Well, I hate SMB so I vote #1 :p

-- JSW (usagi@dingoblue.net.au), September 18, 2000.

i vote for #2

Stig

-- Stig Remnes (sremnes@hotmail.com), September 18, 2000.

PPL want to know, so I will say. One, most(if not absolutely all Pc_10 games) can easily become marathon games if there is no time limit imposed. I could easily max out the smb and smb3 scoreboards if I had no limit of time to do my scoring if I was so inclined to pull such a marathon. But that shows absolutely no skill at all as to game playing ability, get a 1up, score points, and keep on doing it forever, big deal. We all know the difficulty level of SMB doesn't really go up at all. It was the first game for Nintendo's foray into the home market, and they wanted it to be easy and addicting so sales of their products (both arcade and home) would sell nicely. Remember the game market wasn't on the best of ground in 1984-1985. About the switches, I know how to do 150 ticks because I have done so on a real PC_10 machine before. I don't remember if 600 ticks was an option via the dipswitches, I could go rummaging through the dusty closet of mine for that schematic, but I really don't want to. I can also do 150 in MAME because it's not hard to know which dipswitch is which Unknown mark MameDev placed. That is why I voted for #1, and possibly even going lower. As the folks at the Olympics would say, No worries.

-- Chris Parsley (cparsley1@hotmail.com), September 19, 2000.

This vote is cancelled and will not be accounted.

I made the position of both the MARP Community and the Editors, as well as the Official MARP Rules, very clear in previous posts, as well as what an acceptable solution would be (read the pc_10 posts re: dip switch settings)

If it is not clear enough for you, Tommi, from the rules page:

2. If MAME's goal, as Nicola Salmoria has stated, is to emulate the arcade game as closely as possible, then MARP's goal is to emulate the experience of "watching a virtual master play an arcade game", true to the arcade experience, as closely as possible. This has led to the following rulings:

a) Only one credit per game shall be permitted.

This is the last post I will make on this topic, as I'm sick of the pointles rhetoric from Nintendo players who want to bend the rules, as JSW stated, just so they can show-off on SMB. You'll all get your chance on the vs. driver. Since when did completing a game become more important than performing your best on one credit?

Furthermore, I might ask how many of you are actually getting 90% speed on this game. Anybody feel like recording on MAMETG3, and we'll do a precise frame count?

If this is not satisfactory, and you for some reason CANNOT wait one beta release, then we will have an official vote, including ACTUAL SUGGESTED SETTINGS for time, instead of 'OTHER'. And I can already confidently tell you what the outcome of that vote will be.

I'm thoroughly heartened to see how inspired players are to throw out two years of tradition here when it becomes inconvenient to finishing a console game. So inspired, that I feel sick to the heart. That's all I have to say.

gb9, please e-mail me tomorrow. we need to talk.

Q.T.Quazar, MARP Rules Coordinator

-- Q.T.Quazar (qan@home.com), September 19, 2000.

As has been noted, all this debate and arguing over Playchoice-10 isn't primarily about PC10... but Super Mario Bros. And this I find baffling.

It seems like a lot of people are out to prove that they can finish the game. I hate to say it (again), but pretty much anyone that owned an NES has played and finished SMB. I'm not really impressed by that feat. "So what, BBH! Who cares what you think?", you say? Well, I'm just curious as to why everyone is out to prove that they can finish the game when... uh, everyone can finish it already?

When it comes to MARP though, highest score is the key. And as Chris Parsely noted, it takes very little skill to rack up a big score - get to the level where you can wipe out a ton of enemies with a turtle shell (I forget which level exactly), rack up a ton of points and a 1UP, die, repeat. All you have to do is keep doing that and you're on your way to a high score. (SMB3 is another issue entirely, when you can re-enter levels you've already been to there is of course possibility for infinite points no matter how long it takes)

If you guys really want to have SMB competitions, then wait for Vs. system emulation. The Vs. version is considerably tougher and will prove who's best :P

-echo, echo...

-- BBH (lordbbh@aol.com), September 19, 2000.

QT, I deny your authority to cancel this vote. So, THIS VOTING CONTINUES STILL.

Yes, SMB can be finished by a lot of players, but since everyone is so keen on doing it-why not let them. And yes, scoring is going to be a bit stupid because of this version not giving 100K bonus/man when finishing the game, but leeching is forbidden anyway... Marathoning SMB is not possible with one game, after you reach the end (if you can), you'll have to start another game-that is not allowed. So finishing it takes about hour or less.

So what if they are nintendo games(is duckhunt too?,with a gun?), I never had Nintendo, I played these games only at arcade, for me they are playchoice 10 arcade games. And they are on mame anyway. Do you guys think all mame games are good.

Hmmm, on my second game of balloon fight(actually very fun Joust clone) lasted about 250 units, only little better game, and time would have ended short, while I was still playing on my first credit. I want Chris P to show me a marathon game of balloon fight. Tg record is 990 750.

thanks for reading, Tommi

-- Tommi Tiihonen (tiihoto@hotmail.com), September 19, 2000.

My intention is not to show off in a game like smb.. Come on folks! we all know that smb is an easy game! I think mostly of the marpers have cleared smb... My point is that i really feels wierd to play the game, and sometimes run throught the stages just to get another 20k cause you only have 10 "tick time" left.. AND you have 200 in the ordinary time and 5 lives left... THAT4S my point..! And the leeching in smb is not allowed anyway (I hope) so there will be no way to max out the score..

But of course i will follow the rules that QT points out. And the game is kind of fun to play in 300 time also :)

Regards

QRS

-- QRS (qrs@telia.com), September 19, 2000.

Very well Tommi. You seem to be impervious to both logic and rationale, so let me make the following quite clear:

1) I can and do have the right to cancel votes at MARP, if I feel they are either biased or in contradiction with MARP Rules. The exception, is, of course, when a MARP Rule is subjected to vote. In any case, the person polling the vote should have been involved in the debate over the subject. All 6 players who voted for the #2 were part of the debate, and have contacted me personally. GUess who didn't, and who seems to be completely ignorant of the reasons why we didn't call a vote in the first place.

2) Your vote can continue.

3) The results will not be ratified, in any way shape or form, and will not be enforced by the Editors. Nor will the Editors involve themselves in the vote.

4) Support for unlimited time by inserting quarters in pc_10 games is at maybe 30% of the active voice of the community. For dip changes it is around 80-90%. I think you can do the math.

Furthermore, let me thank you personally for forcing me to put down the heavy hand in this situation. Everybody else was okay with waiting a beta and then voting after the dips were listed. So maybe you can explain to me, either here or in a personal e-mail, what is so important about finishing SMB, a game that intelligent rodents and probably some bacteria can beat without any problems.

If you have a problem with my status either as an Editor or as the Rules Coordinator, by all means, post on it or contact another Editor. I am responsible and accountable to the community, and the moment I'm not, I'm out. As such, I have been granted certain rights and been allowed to take temporary (ie: not permanent) measures in resolving conflict. I will not even beg the question of what MARP would currently be like if my, or the other Editors' positions, did not exist, although I'm sure the topic will be raised again at some point.

MARP works under a set of guidelines that allows games to follow a specific notion: one quarter, most skill. It has never been about completion. It will never be about completion. It is not even always about 'doing what the most players want.' If it were, we would very likely have RLH still in T&F recordings. Feel like competing on that Mr. Tiihonen? Or what about extra credits in Gauntlet? Why not? I'm sure lots of players could sit and shoot ghosts for an hour.

Finally, if anyone else wants to protest over this matter, with a decent reason as to why more quarters should be allowed, let me make the procedure crystal clear.

1) You are challenging a rule at MARP (2a), not changing settings for a game. As I said earlier, if you want to post a vote on those lines, that's your right, and I will not interfere--I will participate. Leading to 2...

2) Contact me before posting the vote, so any inconsistencies can be worked out. Several players did this with the PC-10 quarters issue, and seemed satisfied to agree to wait a beta. (although now I'm wondering)

3) You must have a reason for the challenge. I would hope this would seem obvious, but either Tommi has not been reading BBH's posts or has just been ignoring the question.

Again, this is more than I wanted to say on this topic, but I don't want it to seem like I'm making decisions out of thin air. Which is what you seem to be doing, Mr. Tiihonen. Please, for the sake of everyone involved in this argument, take some time and get informed.

Q.T.Quazar, MARP Rules Coordinator

-- Q.T.Quazar (qan@home.com), September 19, 2000.

>QT, I deny your authority to cancel this vote. So, THIS VOTING CONTINUES STILL.

I'm sorry, Tommi, but I can and do have the right where votes affect the rules. And your vote is in direct conflict with 2a)

These are not personal attacks. It is quite clear you had not read the posts on the issue before posting your thread.

If you are dissatisfied with the outcome of this argument, let me suggest a few possible courses of action:

1) Suggest suspension of rule 2a) this would apply to more than just pc_10 games, but also games where players felt an exception was justified. We could then vote on that.

2) Create a vote to remove me from the post of Rules Coordinator.

3) Step off your soapbox and agree to play fair like the others.

Thank-you to the other MARPers who have not posted to this thread after my block. I appreciate your support in this matter. And I'll reaffirm my promise we will do what we can when the dips are announced.

Please note that if you choose to upload your scores according to your own rules, Tommi, you will be violating the rigths of other players at MARP, and your scores will be readjusted.

Sincerely,

Q.T.Quazar, MARP Rules Coordinator

-- Q.T.Quazar (qan@home.com), September 21, 2000.

QT, I think you are blindly staring at the rules, that were not made for this particular case. It's only matter of words and what they really mean. Playchoice credit is not conventional "one player credit", it should be called ticktime, and ignored completely. The real credit being one game, ie pushing "2" at keyboard. That's why I don't see this vote fighting with rule 2a("Only one credit per game shall be permitted").

Well, the deadline is over anyway now, thank you for voting. Result being:

option 1(timelimit 300) 3 votes (or 4, if you count QT in)

option 2(no timelimits) 6 votes

So the players have decided that Playchoice 10 games have no timelimit.

Because of the controversy that arised(for which I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention), I'll hold my inps a couple of days untill Monday, because of GB9's IRC meeting.

Now I'm going to have couple of beers and shoot some Pool :), cheers Tommi

-- "Mr Tiihonen" (tiihoto@hotmail.com), September 22, 2000.