I see lots of posts complaining about veterinary expenses. I have to protest. Now granted there are some bad vets out there, just like any other profession, but we expect an awful lot from these folks and don't really seem to appreciate it. First, they go to college for 6-8 years, leaving with an average of $75,000 of debt. Yet we expect them to care for our animals out of the goodness of their hearts. We call them at home in the middle of the night and expect them out to the farm at 3am on Sunday. They have huge expenses in their clinics and vehicles. Diagnotic and testing equipment is also a huge cost, but it gives us the answers we want and need. Now would you go into your childs dentist and ask for a discount because you have 4 kids? Probably not, but that same person has no trouble asking for a discount because they have 4 dogs (oddly they usually get it). And I don't personally know of any veterinarian that is not involved with a Humane Society in one way or another. These folks deserve the same respect we give other professionals. Veterinary care IS expensive and we have to budget for it and keep only the number of animals we can properly care for, period. (PS no I am not a DVM, I am a certified technician and I see first hand the lack of respect that some of these doctors get, I am also an accountant and I know from their books that they are not getting rich by any means)

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), September 17, 2000

Answers

Let's see, the vet in my hometown charges a flat fee up front for each animal he sees. The fee is $35 and if you bring in a litter of puppies for shots, he charges $35 plus the fee for the shots for each puppy in the litter. In other words, if you have 5 puppies, you can easily be charged over $200 dollars for puppy shots. And the only "humane" thing he does is put down the animals that the city pound brings him after waiting a 5 day adoption period. Feel sorry for the SO-? No, thanks, don't think I can do that. And no, I don't use him anymore. I drive 20 miles to do to another vet. He charges only for the shots, making it around $50 for five puppies. And he really is into helping animals. When I asked him how he could be so much cheaper than the other vet, he said not to worry, he still made plenty of money. Said he was booked solid all weekend every weekend with people who came from Dallas to have their animals vaccinated. Dianne, some people are not lucky enough to have a reasonably priced vet in their area. They have a right to complain.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), September 17, 2000.

Old story: At a factory a vital piece of equipment broke down, causing a bottleneck in the production run. After they tried to find the problem themselves they called in a technician from the manufacturer. He listed to what the problem was and went up, kicked the piece of equipment and it started to work fine. He later sent a bill for $1,000. The factory said it seemed outragous and they wanted a detailed breakout. His breakout was: Service call: $50. Transportation: $450. Knowing where to kick: $500.

On professionals like doctors, dentists and vets, you are paying, in part, for their years of experience. For example, when a dentist examines your mouth they are also looking for possible problems for which you need to be referred to your doctor.

Not mentioned in the posting is you can call most vet offices/clinics with a question and they will provide an answer with no charge. Also to be considered is a large animal vet takes more risks than other health professionals. Dr. Anderson, a local vet, was kicked in the jaw by a horse. Lost several weeks of work with his mouth wired shut. To this day he cannot fully open his mouth.

My vet expenses are extremely low (maybe two visits a year). Part of this is the vet clinic knows me and will let me come in and pick up medications which they would normally feel a bit squimhish about, such as abortion shots. (I breed my heifers at two years of age. When I buy one she get an abortion shot just in case to keep her within my calving season.)

IMO, vets are worth every penny they charge.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), September 17, 2000.

Vets have to be familiar with the biological systems of many different species, and their patients can't tell where or how it hurts -- it's not an easy job.

-- snoozy (allen@oz.net), September 17, 2000.

Dianne: You are correct about the value of the Vet's experience and education. My comment about the cost of care for the cat I left at the vet and was charged 650.00 for a weeks' care, was based on my shock at finding out what they charged for boarding the animal. I knew it would be high to leave him there and have him medicated, bandages changed, etc. MY FAULT was in not asking beforehand what they would charge me to keep him. I had left a horse there after surgery, and was charged only 18.00 per day for it's board. I had boarded dogs and cats at another vet and was charged 8.00 each per day. Reasonable, I thought. When I came home and went to pick up the cat, and was told it was 25.00 per day to board a cat, I about fainted! I SHOULD have asked beforehand, but you live and learn. We do budget for vet care, and like everyone, sometimes forget that those we count on for care had to pay dearly to get that knowledge and experience. On another note, techs are not paid what they are worth, in my opinion. They do alot of the gritty work, and often know just as much as the vet, but aren't compensated for their work, at least not around here. Jan

-- Jan in Colorado (Janice12@aol.com), September 17, 2000.

I'm sorry when I see a Vet just out of school driving a Mercedes , he's not hurting .Many food companys pay alot of there school expenses , ever wonder why science diet often gets pushed at vets ?

I called the vet to see about spaying a possible pregnant cat , about how much would it cost ? Well since she is pregnant it will be $2.40 a min. ! And it will take about 45 min .! Give me a break , if it takes him 45 min to spay a cat he's doing something wrong .

There mark up on things is insane in most cases .I know how long things take and about how much I can get them for .Some vets are great such as my large animal vet in most cases .Some just plain old want to suck every penny you have .

-- Patty Gamble (fodfarms@slic.com), September 17, 2000.

We have two dogs, and it was driving me nuts how much it cost for annual checkups. After per visit fees, test for this, test for that, shots, then then it was , they HAVE to have heartworm medicine and flea medicine and and and... What were doing was going to a small animal vet, a vet that was recommended to us as being very good. These vets want to maintain perfect pets for financially well off people. I found a country vet that will do the shots we need, annual rabies vaccine and the parvo/distemper,ect. vaccine, just for the cost of the shots. Just make an appointment, take them in, get their shots, and go, under 20 each dog. Shop around. These two vets are in 2 different counties, and I have to drive a little farther, but not by much. God bless!

-- Matthew Harris (matt777harris@webtv.net), September 17, 2000.

ooh, a can of worms here.....One of the very few advantages of being over 50 is you can honestly remember when things were much different..this is both good and bad!Used to be, you took your dog or pet cat to the vet for vaccinations and/or spaying, and the bill was "doable"...as i recall, even in the big city, it ran around $28 for shots and between $38-75 for spay/neuter, depending on size and age of the animal.Sick visit for the family pet ran around $40...this was in the 80's BTW.....Next thing I knew, I took my sick cat to the vet and he told me the cat had liver disease and would not live more than another month or so..HOWEVER, he recommended that I bring this cat in weekly for an abdominal tap so that the cat could " live another 6 months or so" at a cost of, are you ready for this?????? $165/week.He treated me as if I were Simon Legree when I told him that was outrageous...sweet cat, picked up from the pound and loved for 5 years....but for heaven's sake...it was not the only cat in the universe from the pound! He refused to euthanize the cat and said that unless I was going to be a "responsible pet owner" I should not have animals! Geez...kitty died at home two weeks later in total comfort.Last week took new dog to rural vet..nice guy.10 minute office visit and a heartworm check and heartworm pills=$250 !!!!!!!!!Get real!!!! Lab equipment is expensive, but it pays for itself after awhile.Do the math..hmmmmm 10 dogs a week at $250 each..not bad...then add up all the other critter visits and I think vets are going the way of all medicine....BTW, what does your doctor charge you for a strep throat test? Usually $20...it COSTS $80 for a box of 250 tests! I KNOW..had my own practice and I charged $1.00 for each test and obviously made a more fair profit.Vets are no different...they can CHOOSE to make a living or choose to rip folks off..I'm still looking for a decent one! God bless.

-- Lesley (martchas@gateway.net), September 17, 2000.

I frankly don't see how people can justify spending so much money on pets, which are for the most part, unproductive. We love our dog, but if she got old and sickly, I'd put her down on the back forty, not buy expensive medicated dog food. If she broke her leg, we'd splint it and let her stay in the house till it healed up. If it was a valuable goat, that was young and might pay back the vet costs many times over in kids and milk, I might take her to the vet for surgery. Otherwise, we'd have to butcher her. I think that with either people, livestock, or pets, we need to have a realistic idea of how much treatment it should receive in the event that it needs it. If you don't like the vet bills, then don't go to that vet. Everything has to die sometime, doing everything possible to prolong a life is not always a good thing.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), September 17, 2000.

Oh dear, I think my vet charges $3/day to board a cat, if he thinks to add it to the bill. If I insist, he figures up what it would be, then decides that's too much and says "Five bucks too much?". I don't think there is an office charge. Never gotten one if there is. $15 for a farm call, again if he bothers to add it. He's a big sucker for homeless and injured animals. He hates losing an animal and will fight for the animal's life as long as he can. If an animal dies on him he usually posts it for free because he wants to know WHY. He treats animals for the animals' sakes, even when he knows the deadbeat owners already owe him money. The downside is that he is frantically overworked, has a great deal of trouble making ends met, and can't afford the bigger and better equiped clinic he needs. He certainly isn't getting rich, I'd guess he's not doing as well as he hoped he would back in vet school. But he's an animal lover, not a money lover. When I've got some extra money, I add it to my bill when I pay it, I figure he deserves it.

Well, back to work for me, my husband brought in a bucket and this thing I think he called a mop. Interesting piece of equipment, but I like my ratcheting pipe threader better. This mop thing really jazzes up the kitchen floor, I think everyone should run out and buy one of these mop things. "New" cook stove going in today! Gerbil

-- Gerbil (ima_gerbil@hotmail.com), September 17, 2000.

This is a very interesting thread. I've worked as a vet tech for years and have seen both sides. I've worked for vets who will give discounts the senior citizens or for multiple pets, and I've worked for ones who would do a credit check on the client while they were still in the exam room with a seriously ill pet. They were both in the same practice! The first thing that comes to mind is that alot of folks, especially ones who choose to move to the country and have alot of animals, need to learn to do their own vetting. All the required vaccinations except rabies are available from mail order companies. Vaccines arrive cold within 24-36 hours. Or you can get them at alot of pharmacies. There, they know how to treat heat-sensitive medications and will refrigerate as soon as they get them. Some feed stores are a little lax in that department. I can go to my local pharmacy and get the rabies shots, also. Heartworming can be done with Ivomec, hot spots can be treated at home, flea infestations can be treated, even broken bones can be splinted and wrapped. Get a good veterinary text and know what your own limitations are. And know what your pocketbook limits are before you buy the animal. Also, if you are going to breed litters of puppies or kittens, be real sure you have homes for them before they are born. Otherwise, don't do it. Another good place to save money, use the discount spay and neuter offers in nearby cities. Worth the gas and time spent. I've never begrudged a vet his REASONABLE fee. He or she has worked hard to get that diploma and most come out of school with a ton of debt. Feed companies pay their tuition? Get real.

-- melina bush (goatgal1@juno.com), September 17, 2000.

We are blessed w/ two real good vets here where I live. Both are reasonably priced. Both do large and small animals. Being a vet is just like being a doctor as far as cost goes. The training required is incredable. When we first moved here we were referred to Dr. Larry. His offices aren't real fancy at all, he drives an 8 year old truck and has his son working w/ him.

His diagnostic skills are unquestionable. He and my wife were standing outside his office waiting for the bloodhound to offer up a stool sample. The Queen (wife) felt "funny". Larry took one look at her and tossed her into his truck and sped off to the hospital. She was there in under 5 minutes. His rapid response may have saved her life. She was having the "big one". As she was only 39 at the time it was not real likely it was a heart attack. He didn't hesitate and made the right call.

Several weeks later the wife made him a cake in the shape of a heart and covered the top w/ gummi worms. When he asked about the worms, she explained that the cardiologist had discovered it was really Heart Worms that were her trouble!

Will never be able to thank him enough.

-- John in S IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), September 17, 2000.

Sorry, but this is a long one!

I haven't spent as much on a vet in my lifetime as some folks spend in a year, yet I don't hesitate with a critter in need to call the vet. Folks don't bother to educate themselves BEFORE they need a vet. And some humans are very vulnerable, believing all they hear. My vet carries those expensive dog foods 'cause the public demands it. He doesn't recommend them!

Whenever I move to a new area, I interview the vets that have been recommended and then make my decisions as to whom will do my vetting, and I do this BEFORE I need them. I have several vets, even tho they all do large AND small critters. With medicine (human and critter) constantly advancing, it's difficult to know everything about every critter.

One of my vets does work for one of those drive-thru safari places and is knowledgeable about exotics. Yet he recommended I take one of my critters to a different vet, since that vet saw a LOT of critters like mine.

Another vet, the one I prefer for the dogs, said he'd innoculate my pet hog but if he got sick to take him to so-and-so down the road. So-and-so does the innoculating! (The hog's never been sick.) He also raises hogs. I do my own innoculations. This is my only critter the vet innoculates, since my supply house only carries a 25 dose bottle. The vet charges $2 for the shot. He would only be expensive if I had 25 hogs, since the bottle is $20 from the supplier. I could just get the shot and give it myself, but this gives the vet a chance to see what the hog is like when he's healthy, since he's not living like the typical farm hog. (He pulls a cart, has his own swimming pool, walks on a leash, etc. and isn't much shorter than I am!)

I do not buy innoculations at a feed store. I've seen all to often how they take a syringe or bottle out of the fridge, lay it on the counter, stand around and chew the fat, and then the buyer decides he got the wrong one and the syringe/bottle is put back in the fridge. These same buyers are the ones who, when they purchase, toss the innoculation on the hot dashboard till they get home. It's best to carry an ice pack in a container/cooler when you pick up these items. Sometimes it's even less costly to pick up that shot from the vet (who I would trust more to keep it cooled.)

I now live in a state where I can't have the dog's rabie shots shipped to me. I could have them sent to a friend in another state, he'd put a fresh ice pack in there, and then send them to me. But the $7 the vet charges is less than all the postage would be.

The vet's products for fleas didn't work on my dogs. (Advantage, Frontline.) I sprinkled food grade Diatomaceous Earth on the carpet, the fleas were dead and gone (and there were several other dead insects) the next day. Haven't had a return, but I'll sprinkle again if I do.

I know I have a great all around program for my critters ~ in the many years I've had livestock/pets, the vet has only had to come out maybe 4-5 times

-- ~Rogo (rogo2020@yahoo.com), September 17, 2000.

If you don't beleive feed company's pay alot of vet's schooling bills call Science diet on Monday and ask them .Make sure you talk to someone other than the person who answers the phone and sends out samples and stuff .Maybe I should make it clearer they give "scholarships "

-- Patty Gamble (fodfarms@slic.com), September 17, 2000.

Any vet 1st year out of school (that is not board certified, 10-12 years of education)driving a Mercedes has money coming from somewhere else. If there is an 'expensive' clinic in your area, you can almost always find a cheap one within reasonable distance. I worked in the expensive clinic in Prairie du Chien, it is a brand new building $250,000 radiograph $23,000, lab $12,000, surgery $9,000.....When you talk about the cost of a test and then the charge for one, take into consideration that it takes a persons (usually technician) time to run that test and the DVM experience to interpret the results. While most of use could recognize a fracture, how many would recognize metestatic tumors in the lungs, an enlarged heart, liver or pancreatic tumors or a pyometra? Do you know what the corret ALT level is in your dog? Do you know what an ALT level is? Granted some of us do, but then I can't fix my tractor.... If you are breeding puppies, then you need to take into consideration the costs involved when you set your selling price. I have never heard of a DVM charging for each puppy, thats ridiculous, but if you are asking for a health certificate for each one and you are having elbows,knees, eyes,heart....all checked and the DVM is signing a cert to that effect then there should be a reasonable charge for that. A good vet will give you ALL your options and not judge you ability or willingness to pay. It is up to you to decide how far you want to go. Its not a matter of catering to wealthy clients, its practicing the best medicine Heartworm is MUCH cheaper and safer to prevent than treat, but there are options to the standard pills. Rabies vaccines can be bought and given by the owner in many states and that animal will be protected against rabies however if that animal bites someone, it is treated as an un-vaccinated animal. I have been lucky, I have spent most of my Tech years in Emergency Medicine working for outstanding DVMs. I am currently at the Emergency CLinic for Animals in Madison (I drive 90 miles each way) and our Cheif of Staff is probably the most brilliant DVM in Wisconsin, if not the whole Midwest. I see folks spend THOUSANDS of dollars on cats and dogs and a great deal of money on ferrets, rabbits, parrots...even mice and rats. I have cared for animals on IV fluids, feeding tubes reperator and ECG monitor all at the same time. I don't judge folks that take ol'shep out behind the barn and quickly dispatch him when he is old, there is nothing wrong in that. We each have our standards for pet/animal care. What I am saying is that DVMs deserve respect and they deserve to make a living. Three of the Assistants I work with started vet school in August, all plan to owe at least $60,000 by the time they are done. The only thing that they are aware of Hill's subsidising is text books.

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), September 17, 2000.

Sure Hill's gives out scholarships, so does Iams (now P&G yuck!) Merck, Pfizer, Bayer, etc.. as does other industries. IBM, Microsoft offer computer scholarships, drug companies to MD's, Crest to dentists. The local DVM here gives a $250 scholarship to a local student interested in veterinary medicine. Its called a tax write off. Believe me, Hills did not give a full scholarship to every DVM that stocks their products!

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), September 17, 2000.

OK... had to reply to this thread! We live in a remote area and are lucky to have the vet we do have... he is in my estimation wonderful! yep... he has a growing practice and he takes time to treat every animal and works 6 days a week and in ER's. I have a farm and its difficult to get a vet who will work on large animals here. he does and i was lucky to find him, he is 13 miles away and charges me 35.00 a farm call and then he doesn't get ridiculous about his fees after that either! AND HE REMEMBERS ALL MY ANIMALS NAMES AND A FEW THEIR AGES! I have 40 goats and he remembers most of them plus my dogs. when i call him he always asks how they are doing. grant it it seems when he is away I always have an Er but when you raise goats you have to know about vetting them yourself sometimes too. i am also fortunate to have access to a great goat talk list to get help too.

Now...... compare that to this one vet I was using a few yrs ago who is also sort of close, the vet come to find out was charging exborant prices as he dabbles in an expensive hobby on the side, race horses and charges double the money vets within a hundred mile radius charges. i am not condemming him here for that but i think he could be a little more reasonable in his prices as this is a very poor rural area where folks just don't have the cash layout they would in the city or suburbs. people can't afford him so they have gone elsewhere and overtaxed the more reasonable vets within a 50 mile radius. He is not a young vet either and is well established. He just does not seem to care about the whole philosophy of being a vet, helping animals. I could go on and on here but I won't. my point is some vets are great and some are not as was mentioned earlier. Guess its that way in most professions. But i am lucky to have my vet and i even thanked him on our website in acknowledgements for our appreciation of folks who assisted us in winning at the 2000 ADGA National show.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), September 17, 2000.

Green, we have a vet 1/2 mile from my home he charges per pup, 15$ to look at it and 20 for the shots w/ a litter of tenyou easliy spend over 200 to walk in there. i found a great vet! she charges 25, now 30 w/ gas going up to come here,once here she will treat any and everything no extra fee, shots are between 2.00 and 15.00 depending on med. and refils are at her cost. i can have her here to look at my pups give them shots , worm them and mom, health papers, take a look at the goats or what ever else and spend less then 100. now you tell me who is in it for the money? i call her at least once a month and never a charge the guy up the street wont even talk to you unless you come in.

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), September 17, 2000.

Point being some vets are good in in it for the animals and some are in it for the money .How any vet where I live comes off with some of these prices is insane .Alot of people around here are farmers and $9.00 or under an hour workers .People can't afford these high prices so some animals suffer .

And by the way if a vet is coming out of school with only 60,000 in dept you better bet your bloomers they are getting lots of scholarship money ! You could spend that for 2 years in an ivy league school .

I'm glad some of you have found good vets to work for and treat your animals send them my way .

-- Patty Gamble (fodfarms@slic.com), September 17, 2000.

The vet 'diagnosed' my beloved pet dog Friday with food allergies, vist and meds-$125 later, plus the cost of new food, she is still miserable, as am I, at her condition! Reduced fee for follow up? NO. I just gave her a 'medicated' bath, if she doesn't 'feel' better by tomorrow I have to dip into the rent $ to take her again, but this time to a new vet!

-- Kathy (catfish@bestweb.net), September 17, 2000.

My post read these guys were starting VET school,not college, they already have finished at least 4 years. Some are looking at 2 years school some 3. This is at UW-Madison, not ivy league. Why is it we look to vets to do their job because 'they care'? I don't expect that of other health proffessionals. Does my dentist care about me and my teeth? NO they want us to come in for reg check ups and fillings, etc. A dental visit costs big bucks, yet dentists have no more years schooling than vets. If you called your dentist at 3 am on Sunday, they would probably hang up on you, no, you would just get ananswering machine or service. That is my point. BTW.. If your dog was diagnosed with food allergies, it will take up to 6 weeks to get the offending food completely out of her system. The alternative is dosing prednisolone, a steriod. Some diphenhydramine may help a bit in the mean time, but you can't use that for 6weeks either.

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), September 17, 2000.

Patty, $60,000 in debt is DEBT. Not something scholarship money covered. We have several vets in our area. A wide variety of price ranges. We use different vets for different species and needs. As far as boarding goes, we can choose from the $5 to $20 a day price range. If we are only boarding we go with the $5 per day guy. They LOVE our dogs and give them lots of exercise and treats. The expensive vet keeps them in the kennel with no exercise. I used to use the cheap vet for everthing and the expensive vet on when I couldnt get the cheap vet. Only through experince did I learn that the cheap vet was always booked and couldnt do emergencies and didnt take call. That is when I decided it was worth the expensive vet prices to use him. When I say use, I mean use! Had a litter of 12 Basset pups that we kept in the house only to discover an empty pack of rat poison in there box one Sunday morning. Dont use it, dont where it came from. Our thought was better safe than sorry. All the pups and dam were given emetic as soon as we got to the office, which the vet came into on his only day "off".They were then all given vitamin k shots and meds to take at home for the three days it took for ALL of thier blood levels to come back. Guess what, only the dam and one of the puppies were exposed. The dams level was high enough to kill her. Not the pups.Cost $600 for the vet visit, missed a day of work, and the Jeep was filled with dog vomit. Was it worth it? Yes. If it wasnt then I should not have been breeding dogs. I have friends who are vets. They are not living a wealthy lifestyle. How many of us are willing to work 12 hour days only to spend half of the night out and taking stupid calls only to work every day we have off. Not me. I think that vets are worth their weight in gold. They have saved me from alot of stupid mistakes. As far as learning to do it yourself, make yourself knowledgable. Will save you and the vet alot of sleepless nights.

-- Terri Perry (stuperry@stargate.net), September 17, 2000.

i know if my dentist or doctor did not care about me i would never go back again! i changed feed stores because they seemed to be bothered by questions.i think the almighty dollar plays such a big part in so many lives that SOME people go into careers for the money. if vet a & b both go to school for the same amount of time both start their own offices and both treat the same animals in the same area why does b charge 2x's the price? money. it goes across the board not just vets..our doctor should charge me for 4 office visits when all the kids go but he charges me for2 the old doctor got 20.00 for each child 80.00 to walk in the door! the new one 40.00, i feel less pressure to take them knowing the price difference.same w/ the pets, instead of guessing whats wronge i call the vet saves money and time in the long run.

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), September 17, 2000.

Great post Dianne, most folks don't take the time to learn as much as they can about their pets and stock so that they can handle the basic's themselves. Top that with no ongoing relationship with a vet, only using them when in hysteria from an accident. I make it a point to pay for an office visit each spring, in which I talk to my vet, no goat or dog in site. We talk about new rules pending for out of state sales, new worming drugs, Scrapie and the Texas Animal Health Commission rules. I respect her and her knowledge and she respects me and knows that when I do call her it is a real emergency, I am not taking her away from her family because "Nanny or Billy :) just isn't feeling well", yet haven't bothered to take a temp, worm, or trim feet in 3 years. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), September 18, 2000.

I moved to a new area 3 years ago, and had to find a new vet after using the same one for 14 years. I have a large assortment of cats and dogs. I tried out 5 different animal hospitals before I selected the one who will be the primary care provider for us. My choice was based on the level of compassion I felt from the DVM, not the fee. I've had to euthanise (sp?) two longtime pets in the last few years, had three cats and two dogs altered, and a few booboos needed attention, and regular wormings and shots. I always take advantage of shot clinics and spay/neuter price discounts. I take good care of my animals, and try not to have more than I can afford. I don't like paying rediculous amounts of money if I don't have to, but I'm so glad to know someone is a phone call away if there is an emergency. It's hard to put a pricetag on peace of mind.

-- Cathy Horn (hrnofplnty@webtv.net), September 18, 2000.

When we have homesteads like we do, you have to learn to do most of the 'vetting' yourself, otherwise no way can you afford it. I use my vet when I need him, when it's something I can't do, or don't know about. He's very busy but always calls me back and I can go to his office and pick up what I need much cheaper than anywhere else. We give all the shots ourselves, puppies-$1.69 a shot, at 8,11,14 wks. Rabies is $3.50. Pups get wormed at 2,3,4,6,8,10,12 weeks old with the best wormer. Adult dogs get wormed once a month and shots annually. We do it. We buy the large animal shots too. Most country vets gladly sell you the wormer or medicine you need and teach you how it is given. They would rather you take good care of them. Vets are so busy with emergencies, where they are needed. We have one vet who will dehorn your goats for $10.00 each at his office outside and that's a deal. I am glad the vets are there if I need them but I must learn and do all I can for myself.

-- Cindy in Ky (solidrockranch@msn.com), September 18, 2000.

I also have a really good vet. Hes very nice, and his fees ARE very resoanable. But things have been hard for farmers lately as well as truckers with the gas prices so high. Are income this year will probaly be about half of what is was last year. The animals I have are all strays, didnt go and buy them, but love them. Can I afford them? Probaly shouldnt, but WONT give them up. Thanks to alot of you I have made up my mind to do alot of the stuff myself from now on. All shots except of course the rbies...and I already do my own wormers and flea control. Probaly wont try the nuetering, though...LOL...but for those of you that can, I think its great. My dentist neuters his own cats, we had a discussion about that the last time I had my teeth done, kind of funny!!!!! Carrie in Wis

-- Carrie Wehler (carriew@ticon.net), September 18, 2000.

This is a great thread! I have 2 opinions on this, on the one hand a vet should be paid and he should be respected WHEN he has shown he has the knowledge and comportment that deserve respect. I don't think someone should become a vet for the money! I don't believe a person can actually be truly good at anything when they do it JUST for the money.

The vet in my town is alternately good and horrible in the cost and knowledge category. He doesn't know a thing about goats other than they are made of meat and how to take out testicles. His lack of knowledge combined with mine cost me a ton of money on my first doe and also a LOT of heartache. He did put her down for me for free this spring because he felt somewhat responsible, after having seen her probably 15 times in two years for abcesses and telling me that there was no way she had CAE when she did have it. I had an incident with a goat kid recently, he punctured a 3" hole in his rib cage, I thought he was going to die and I believe he would have if I hadn't taken him to the vet. I called the vet at home, it was 5:30 and his office closes at 5:00, he met me there and stitched him up and gave him an anitbiotic and a shot of B-12 at my request. The goat was in shock. While I held him and the vet prepared to stitch by filling his mouth with snuff and then putting on gloves, he started blathering on and on about how these Mexicans and Blacks are this that and the other thing.....it wasn't very nice and I did not like it. Just because I am white doesn't mean I am a rascist. So I don't respect him as a man. The entire ordeal took approximately half an hour. He said to come by the next day to pay the bill. It was $60.00 for after hours and $32.00 for the services. Ouch. That is more than I usually spend in 2 months.

There is a lot to be said for being able to do things yourself, but punctured lungs are beyond my first aid skills. I have no problem dressing wounds and giving shots or setting my chickens legs when they break them, but I don't have the psychological make-up to kill something when it can be helped and made well. I agree that life shouldn't be preserved at any cost, but it shouldn't be terminated just because it's problematic either.

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), September 18, 2000.

To Cindy inKY..as I said before, those rabies vaccines you give yourself are protecting your animals against rabies, but legally they are considered un-vaccinated and would have to be impounded for 10 days if they bite someone. Now I find this rather funny, after the complaints about markups,Cindy is happy to pay $3.50 for a rabies vaccine. Even purchased in the smallest quantity, that vaccine cost .61 and when purchased in quantity with other vaccines is sometimes sent free. Good for those of you that do all you are capable of doing. Educate yourself and keep supplies on hand. I stock all the legal drugs I can, plus loads of bandage materials, needles, syringes, topicals etc and a veterinary pharmicutical book thats gives dosages and contraindications. Story about stitching up a goat, one of my girls eviserated herself on my fence this summer. Found her laying in the shavingswith intestines, aumentum (sp)and abomasen hanging out her right side. Well, I stuck a 50# bag of feed on her head since I was here by myself, irrigated the guts as well as possible with sterile saline, worked them back in place, squirted way to much penicillin in the abdomen and sewed her up. Kept her in antibiotics for 2 weeks, 4 months later she has a scar but is doing GREAT. A friend who commercially milks goats did a similar fix with crazy glue and it worked too. Not everyone has the stomach for this, but you can do it and it can work.

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), September 18, 2000.

What's the pain difference between neutering and doing abdominal surgery ?

-- fuller (gottaask@net.gate), September 18, 2000.

My mare's teeth needed to be floated (filed). Since I hardly call my bet, doing my own shots and wormings, he dropped me. The new vet wouldn't touch my horse's mouth unless she was tranquilized.

On another note, I spent $105 for my parakeet. My son was scared and would have been devistated if we didn't take him to the vet. Funny thing is, the vet said to keep doing what I was doing.

-- Dee (gdgtur@goes.com), September 18, 2000.

Hi, there,

My son's a vet. Has been for six years. He quit working at an animal hospital, and went to work for a pharmaceutical company. Better money. Better benefits. But mostly, he tells me, he was very frustrated because so many people thought that the cost of treating "fluffy" or "fang" was too high.

He went to school for eight years (Texas A and M) Did you know that it is harder to get into Vet school than Medical school? The cost was phenomenal. He was in debt over $50,000 when he got done, even with mom and dad helping some.

He had to learn about the anatomy and treatment of many, many different types of animals. All of them have important differences. The Vet students have a joke about "medical" doctors. They call them "single species Vets" They only have to study one species of animal.

Sometime when you think the vet is charging you too much money, ask yourself this question: "How much would this procedure have cost if it had to be done on my child? I believe you will find that it would cost many times as much.

My boy often told me of rebuilding smashed up legs on dogs hit by cars. Total charge under $1000. My friend had a simple fracture of her ulna. Cost $2500 - BUT THIS WAS ALMOST TWENTY YEARS AGO.

Don't forget, most vets also have to pay the overhead cost for x ray machines, faxes, computers, ultrasound machines, secretaries, technicians, etc. It's not just themselves they have to pay for when they charge you an office call.

I may be biased, but I think the vets work damned hard, for not all that much money. My son was making about $50,000 per year at the hospital. Do you know any "medical" doctors who work for that amount?

JOJ

-- jumpoffjoe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), September 18, 2000.

Jumpoffjoe, I think we all appreciate what vets go through to get their training and their equipment. And I for one did know that it was harder to get into vet. school than to get into medical school -- though that is because there are fewer vet. schools and fewer slots open each year for students, not because a vet must be more qualified than a human doctor. And I understand that veterinarians, like everybody else, have bills to pay, and families to care for. But I also think that people spend way too much money on their animals. There are a lot of people who spend money on pets that should be going to take care of their children or themselves. Animals are NOT little people in fur coats. I think it is obscene that in this country abortion is legal and even encouraged amongst some sets, while animals are pampered and cared for better than many children. If we take on the responsibility for the care of an animal, we need to take good care of it, and keep it healthy, but WITHIN REASON. It's the vets business how much he or she charges for services, it is our business to decide just how far we are willing to go to provide increasingly expensive medical care for pets and livestock. Some may criticize, but when we've had an animal injured so badly that it was beyond our ability to care for it, and we knew it was going to cost an unreasonable amount to get medical care, we've opted to put the animal down, even when it was a pet we were fond of. And may still miss, even now, years later. But I don't regret our decision. People, now, are different -- for a human being we would bankrupt ourselves, if need be (I hope it never comes to that, though!). I think many people have so lost their connections with other people -- family and friends -- that they have substituted the companionship of animals to fill the hole, and then spend outrageous amounts of money trying to keep the animals alive as long as a person would normally live -- and it just isn't going to happen. A revival of the extended family would probably help curb some of the pet 'mania'.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), September 18, 2000.

This is interesting. I have no problem paying my (good) vet for his services. I also see to it that he gets a nice christmas bonus every year because I DO appreciate all that he does for me. I have a real problem with paying the bozo who shows up and says to me "Well, your horse is over 30 and her kidneys are probably shutting down and you should think about euthanasia" when it is obviously colic with classical symptoms (looking at side, biting flank, rolling, flehman position) and needs a rectal palpation, some pain killers, and probably a naso-gastric tube of mineral oil will take care of it. He finally capitulated and did what I requested. The horse was better in 2 hours and lived another 6 years with 'kidney failure' (she didn't have it). She did die at the ripe age of 36 -- of a totally different kind of colic, and humanitarian euthanasiaa with my good vet in attendance. He drove through a blizzard at 1 AM to put her out of her agony for me. I pay him whatever he bills me. I'm extremely grateful not to have to deal with the bozo vet anymore. I have learned and continue to learn to care for my own animals (and frequently others), and when to call Dr. Mike. Too bad too few other people are willing to do likewise. The bozo vet also has no compassion for animals, they're just a cash crop to him. Like all other walks of life, there are good people and bad people. And if I had my way about it, Dr. Mike would be my personal physician as well - - I've seen far too many quacks who prescribed antibiotics to me when I had hypersensitivity pneumonitis and needed to be on oxygen instead. Mike works a whole lot cheaper and diagnoses better.

-- Julie Froelich (firefly1@nnex.net), September 19, 2000.

Dianne, Yeah I know about the rabies shots, I had the vet give the adult dogs 3 yr. vacs 2 years ago. If the dog is under 1 yr, then only a 1yr vac is given. If I keep a pup I give the vac. then when it gets over a year, he can give it. But its still 35 for the visit to the farm and 12 each shot for 6 dogs. But only every 3 years. I give them rabies shots each year anyway here but the papers say 3 years. My dogs never leave the farm, always in the fenced yard or house. (we live 1/2 mile up a gravel road) And I don't take them anywhere with me. And I don't let them chase any critters. When visitors come they get put up. When we are gone they are in the house or put up. I am very protective of my dogs, take excellent care of them. No one is allowed to bring their dog here, and I will not take any strays ever. People try to give them to me but I refuse. I won't even let them take them out of the car. Strays that have had no vacinations can be a serious risk to my dogs. Even though mine have had their shots, parvo stays in the soil 7 years. I won't risk it. People think I am being mean but I have my own to take care of. I do help place dogs in homes, but over the phone. I had one Border come here waiting for a home but I knew he had had his shots. Keeping all my animals in a safe enviornment is my best preventative medicine. I can scrub wounds and give stitches if I have to, but mostly around here it's just worm, worm, worm!

-- Cindy in Ky (solidrockranch@msn.com), September 19, 2000.

Good points, Kathy. I certainly agree that taking care of your kids is more important than taking care of your pets. I've never had to put down a pet; they've always had the good graces to wander off and die in whatever way their pet god tells them too, I guess, when the time is right. It would be nice to think that people wouldn't get pets if they didn't have the resources to care for them properly, though.

I realize it is beyond reason to spend a fortune on one's pets (I'd never put a dog on dialysis, or give it a heart transplant, for instance; but neither would I want the same extreme care for myself). I guess my boy probably was getting bummed out at least in part because of people asking him to euthanize their pets when a simple, relatively inexpensive, procedure would have taken care of the problems.

JOJ

-- jumpoffjoe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), September 19, 2000.

I haven't had time to check the forum for a long time, but I had to ad my 2 cents when I read this thread. I am also feeling the crunch of high cost vet care. I recently moved into a new area and needed to get my broodmare preg checked. I called a local vet and was told I would need to haul her in as they don't take the ultrasound into the field. The price was quoted as $45, which was in line with what my former vet cherged so in the trailer she went. After I re-loaded her I went in to pay and found that there was also a $30 "office visit" charge that I was not told about. I paid the bill, but the next time I needed an ultrasound done I hauled the mares an hour away to my folks home so my old vet could do it. He charges $12 field call and $35 per ultrasound and that's with him hauling the equipment out to my parent's place. When I have 2 or 3 mares to check at one time it's quite a savings! And if I haul directly to his office I don't have to pay any office visit charge at all. I know someone will ask why I bother having the girls preg checked when I could tease back to the stallion, etc. But when you are paying a stud fee and mare care bill you need to be sure you are getting what you pay for, esp since I can often have a buyer lined up before the foal is born

BTW, I do all our animals vaccinations myself (except rabies) and have been doing them since I was 13 years old. This is a simple and cheap process and I have taught several of my horse owning friends how to do their own shots. I also do much of my own 'repair' stuff when someone gets hurt. My horses have to pay for themselves as I couldn't afford them otherwise, so every bit counts! :-)

-- Elle (hotging@aol.com), September 20, 2000.

Where we live we have seen both sides of the coin when it comes to vets. We tried the vets in the town closest to us and found one to be an arrogant SOB that killed on of my cats when he was neutered and declawed (major septicimia?). The other clinic was only interested in cattle and wouldn't even look at my horses or small livestock. So we went to the next town and the only vet there wouldn't show up when we made appointments and didn't want to deal with the horses, so on to the next town 25 miles away. We tried one clinic and they said they would work on horses, but when they came out it was apparent that this vet was scared to death of horses, they wanted our cattle and sheep business which is why they would "do" horses.

That left one more clinic in town. Hurray we hit the jackpot. There are 3 vets in the clinic and they are wonderful. If they don't know about a critter we have, they research before they come out and they are willing to check with specialists to verify treatment for a special problem and they will do whatever they can to save us money. Like tell us to buy the large Frontline and putting it in a bottle and re-measuring for the cats and small dogs - saved us a fortune.

They have come out on Sundays, late nights whenever we have had a problem. The farm charge is $25, but if we can haul an animal in we can save that. They have let the bill slide a little when they knew we were short and are all around wonderful guys.

-- beckie (sunshine_horses@yahoo.com), September 20, 2000.

JOJ, I agree with all the points you made in your first post. It seems a shame that your son left the profession, but I understand about the frustration factor!

Kathleen, I don't mean this is a nasty way, but I don't think your comparison of animal care to child care is valid. You said you provide "reasonable" care for your animals, which I am assuming means feeding them, and providing adequate shelter, and kindly treatment, even affection (as you mentioned), right? Well, there are kids out there that aren't treated that well. That's not a reason not to treat your animals well. IMO, of course.

Do people go overboard in "pampering" their animals? Again IMO, yes - - one of my pet peeves is people who arrange "marriages" for their dogs (maybe cats too, although I've seen it only for dogs). And some people refuse to let their animals be euthanized, even when it is hopeless and means more suffering for the animal, because the person can't stand to lose the animal -- I think that's cruel.

But just a couple months ago, I spent a lot of money trying to save the life of my 10 year old cat. It cost so much because whatever his problem was, it couldn't be discovered, and the treatments for the symptoms that were obvious were ineffective. Finally, it became obvious that he wasn't going to recover, despite the fact that no one knew what caused his problems, so I had him euthanized. He was an EXCELLENT mouser, but that's not the reason that I mourn his loss. I would be hard pressed to say what dollar amount would replace our relationship. I guess none, because I don't know where to buy that relationship back. I now have another cat from the Humane Society, and he is a great cat. I wouldn't give up the new cat to get the old one back, but I'd give up more money.

Everyone does have to decide for themselves what they can afford in animal care. However, many people won't pay for vet care for their animals because it's cheaper to get another pet than pay for the care of the one that is sick. Example: $100 to treat my sick parakeet!?!? It only cost $12 to start with! To me, that is just part of the throw-away mentality I see deplored so often on this forum. I would say that the majority of vets in public practice (as opposed to research) are in it because of their lifelong fascination with and love of animals, and that the callous attitude of many of their clients towards their animals hurts them very much.

Not that it matters much, but I have also had dealings with Dr. Mike that my sister mentions above, and the Chief vet at the Emergency Clinic for Animals here in Madison that Dianne mentions (sorry, I can see his face, but the name is escaping me at the moment), and want to add my 3 cents attesting to their dedication and excellence. Indeed, I know that Dr. Mike covers about 350 square miles in his practice (everyone wants him because he is so good and because he WILL come), isn't getting rich, and is infrequently seen by his long-suffering wife. My regular vet for my cats is one of the kindest and most dedicated people you could want to know. She gave me her home phone number even and told me to call her if I needed to. I guess she trusts me to know when it's necessary. Many, many vets are truly wonderful. And I have found that they will go to extraordinary lengths for me, once they have discovered how committed I am to my animals.

-- Joy Froelich (dragnfly@chorus.net), September 20, 2000.

Dear Diane, Here is another side of the story. I am a vet's wife. He drives a chevy van and I drive a Corsica. We live in a middle class neighborhood. When my husband got out of school, it took him 11 years to pay back his loans. No, science diet did not help him. The only help he got was from the loans he had to pay back. He has two degrees and spent 9 years in college to achieve this. We will never be rich and thats ok. There are alot of people that have pets who can not afford them. You see many clients with pets that feed their animals with the ground beef that they get from welfare which is supposed to be going to their children. These are the people that complain most about their bills. He became a vet because of his love for animals. With the same amount of education, he could have become a Medical Dr. and made ten times the amount of money that he makes now. Medicine, overhead, leases and employees etc., cost a lot of money, not to mention equipment. Having a pet should be a luxury. People that can't afford them should not own one. Sorry to be so pesimistic but I know how the other side lives and how much money my husband earns. When the one person stated how much money she had to pay for her puppy check she did not mention that she was probably going to sell those puppies for $300.00 a piece. I do not know a rich vet and everyone that I do know, does it just because of their love for animals.

-- Candace Zenni (biz2121@hotmail.com), October 31, 2001.