First let me say that driving without tags or licence is a sure way to start a conflict with law enforcement ! However, it is an unauthorized law for a constitionalist. Jefferson warned that government would introduce unauthorized taxes and licences and tags are THAT. Licences have not reduced D.W.I.'s. In fact most drunken drivers don't even have one. Taxes on tags are unconstitutional and grievious ! To be taxed on the same purchase 10 times in a ten year period is ridiculous. THE GRAY"S HAVE A POINT !

The Problem : Refusing to go to court. Why ? Because there is no justice in a county or state court ! The matter is a Constitional Problem and in county court your automaticly guilty. A plain man has not the funds to address the issue. The common man is not Larry Flint ! It costs about 3 Million dollars to take a issue to the Supreme Court. This is and long has been an issue that needs the attention of the highest court in the land ! Murderers get a free trip to this court but an honest man has no chance in hell ! So Joe Gray is pushing the buttons !

The Solution is : Write your Senator and request, no, DEMAND, the case is heard by the Supreme Court(for free). The lazy Justices only hear a small number of cases a year--in a sense they are a waste of tax dollars themselves. Unless the Justices come down off their high horse than this is going to be a blood bath !

Why help them ? Because, this is a small charge that will result in another Waco(except the government will pay dearly for this one) ! I consider the alternatives ? Why not just leave them alone ? Is one Homesteader refusing to submit a reason to murder a family ? NO--it won't even matter ! But the government will come and will die by the hundreds to prove that they are truly the Whore of Babylon. Let the @##$%^ come, I admire them, even while they are dying in droves, I will admire them ! Any soldier stupid enough to die over a drivers licence is truly brave.

I wrote a letter to the Supreme Court asking them to hear Joe's case and that was my one act of negotiation. (probably a waste of time ) ! If they refuse and send troops then we have no choice And Texas is horrible place to die but dying anywhere in chains is horrible ! It will be better to die in ditches than surrender ! I want the North Wall. That is where the Tennesseans stood at the Alamo. This time the Virginians get it !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), September 09, 2000

Answers

While I sympathize with the Gray family, and I agree with you about the Feds, the problem I have in this situation is that Embassy of Heaven is, at it's heart, a courtroom, jailhouse ministry.

The sole reason for driving with Embassy of Heaven plates and Driver's license is to take the Word of God to the lawyers, judges, jailers and inmates. Many Citizens of Heaven change their minds about where they stand when it actually comes time for jail, is this what happened to Mr. Gray?

I do not wish to see Mr. Gray's rights violated or his life taken. I would like to see this resolved by peaceful means. Jail just isn't that bad compared to dying in sin.

In Christ, in for a penny, in for a pound, Laura

-- Laura Senderhauf (gsend@hotmail.com), September 09, 2000.

Joel, thanks for the info. I have been wondering what your perspective on this situation was. If possible, please keep us updated. God Bless! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), September 09, 2000.

Laura, Joe Gray isn't a member of the Embassy of heaven. Yes, his stance is in line for the most part, but he got their plates to prove a point.

This situation is essentially People vs. The State. If our Constitution has no teeth anymore, then let's see them try to get rid of it in an above board manner.

Joel, what's with the 3300 troops you mentioned before? That's twice the population of the "city" of Trinidad..... This is a powder keg. I am afraid the fuse has already been lit.

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), September 09, 2000.

My sources tell me that they are Army Rangers from the 101st Airborne. They aren't that elite of a force but they are paratroopers. They are at Fort Sam Houston. Why were they moved there ? Probably because of the large number of Michigan Militia that has begun to arrive near Trinidad. They are the early warning everyone is watching--if they go mobile so will the militias.

I made the mistake of watching only one group in Miami. I won't do that again ! If, the Grays are arrested on a State warrant by local authorities than I cannot help them. That is the price for breaking a state law ! I will only act if the Federal Government over steps it's bounds. As at Ruby Ridge the first step is to place the Federal Government under citizens arrest. I will not accept the martial law excuse anymore--for they are in direct violation of the Constitution. No military forces are permitted to act on the citizens of this nation ! PERIOD. The first to ignore this law were MacArthur and Patton who fired on the World War I Veterans who had beseiged Washington D.C. to get their pensions and back pay. Now they call themselves by alphabet letters but the HRT teams are nothing more than elite military squads. Slice it, dice it, and call it round, I don't care --they are Military !

And so we wait. Bush will not do anything till after the election. His V.P candidate is making all the calls on this situation. I expect a raid immediatly following the announcement of our newly elected. Probably within minutes of the announcement. Than all the blood thirsty bystanders will fight to get a good seat for the show but not one of the cowards will lift a hand to fight for freedom or bend a knee to pray to the Almighty for deliverance ! If you see the stock of a firearm break the lens of a network camera than you'll know some zealous reporter ask me for my reaction --and got it !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), September 09, 2000.

Joel I agree with you on the feds not belonging in a dispute between a private citizen and state or any local officals. I hope that this will not end up with gunfire but with the washington interference i don't see any other outcome.

These isolated events i am afraid are part of a plan to bring on indeference by the population by the fact that they are so comman. I agree that the only solution is to make a stand to wake up people by making the government show their hand by the escalation of the force they use against its own citizens.

I am also worried in that I think that in these matters now in dealing with standoffs like this that it now comes under the attorney general's control over all federal resources being used even the military. I just wish that SS Reno was on an island so she(it) could be voted off. I am not very good with a gun which is why i have to have a lot of ammo on hand but I still am quite good with the training i receved to make me an independant duty qualifed navy hospital corpsman. We seem to have always been able to take care of marines when they needed us. I am beginning to think that the militas need to start thinking in terms of developing support services for what will happen in the future if our leaders do not start following the rule book "The Constitution of the United Sates of America."

But then again I suppose our leaders would check with SS Reno for the legality of things and i am afraid the only things that it considers as illegal is anything that it feels stands in the way of it's belief. May God be with you. gail

-- gail missouri ozarks (gef123@hotmail.com), September 10, 2000.

As I heard Mr. Gray describe his encounter with the authorities, he was not the driver of the vehicle which had no plates. He was a passenger. That fact makes his arrest an even more bizarre story. It's amazing how the story gets modified as it gets repeated. If you want the firsthand account of almost anything, you have to get your news from shortwave. The ---- you get from local radio and tv has little to do with the truth. Listen to the BBC or Radio Netherlands and then listen to local broadcasters and you will wonder if we're all on the same planet!

-- John James (jjames@n-jcenter.com), September 10, 2000.

Here is an article citing court cases where the right to travel was determined to be a CONSTITUTIONAL right not subject to state nor federal licensing....http://www.w3f.com/patriots/totravel.html.

I certainly hope this works as a link. Ah nuts, I am disconnected again! This is getting to be too much.

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), September 10, 2000.

*G*...

You don't suppose the arrest warrant on him for assaulting a police officer OR the court order requiring his daughter to surrender custody of her two children to her ex-husband who filed the custody complaint...

...has anything to do with it, do you?

If the Washington Post article has any credibility, then it would appear to be a local matter for state and county officials. Nothing more. I think what you'll see more and more of in the future, is for law enforcement officials to play the "waiting game", until the person they are after throws in the towel. A H*ll of a waste of time, but nobody gets hurt.

(:raig

-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), September 11, 2000.

Last I heard, the local TV station (Channel 51 Fox) was reporting that the district attorney for Henderson County was planning to dismiss all charges against Mr. Gray for the assault. He said that after having reviewed the video tape made by the camera on the Department of Public Safety vehicle he believed that both Mr. Gray and the officers were equally at fault, and therefore no charges should be filed. The video was to be released to the public early this week. I don't know if they have done this yet or not as we missed the news last night. That will leave only the child custody matter. As the Henderson County sheriff's department has been relunctant to get involved in this matter for several months, I suspect the locals know the kids are better off with their mother than with their father. I do not know any of the people involved here, but when we lived there 12 years ago there was a family with the same last name as the father who stayed in the jail log constantly. I do not know if it is the same family, but I suspect strongly they are. At any rate, it is a local matter, and not a federal matter. The federals have no business down there and should go tend to their knitting elsewhere.

(In case anyone wondered, I am about 150 miles from Trinidad.)

And Craig, the Washington Post lost creditibility long ago.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), September 12, 2000.

Thank God!!!!!!! I certainly hope that is the case! Please keep us updated as the media here in Central Tx is absolutely quiet on the subject.

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), September 12, 2000.

I happen to know a little about the embassy of heaven, having many close friends who are members and have heaven plates and I.D. and I can tell you, that they are unduly harrassed, even when they are not/have not been driving! One such aquaintance, was sitting in a bar with some friends,(no, he wasn't drunk)when a policeman came in and looked around, walked up to this man and asked him for his ID. The reply was "what are your grounds for questioning me?" They cannot just stroll up and start pumping you for ID and other info without cause! After some discouurse, he was arrested for 'obstruction of justice and resisting an officer'! Upon arrival at jail, he didn't want to wear the jail uniform. There is no law that says he has to. So they made him take a shower, and while he was in there,stole his clothes.He still refused to wear the jail clothes, so wrapped a sheet around himself.When it came time for the hearing,they wouldn't let him go without the jail clothes, and they wouldn't give his regular clothes back.Then they claimed that he refused to come to the hearing.Oh yeah, the other thing was that he wouldn't comply with the booking procedures, either.So then it became a matter of"We'd like to let you out but you have to be booked in first!".MANY ambassadors of Heaven knuckle under and give in, becasue they can really make your life miserable while you are there. They finally grabbed this guy, forcibly took his fingerprints,yanked him by the hair to take a photo,I don't think he signed the form though, which is necessary for it to be valid. Anyway, when the newspaper story came out, it was a pack of lies.They made it sound like he was some kind of a nudist or something, and claimed that he'd voluntarily complied with the booking procedures. Another friend was RIDING in a car and was pulled over for some reason. Upon investigation it was discovered that the driver, who had a state license,plates,etc, was driving with a suspended liscense and no insurance. Both parties were grilled thoroughly, and our friend( an ambassador of heaven),would not give his date of birth. It is only required to give your name, (and ID if you are the driver.)They arrested him for obstruction of justice, saying he might be a serial killer or something(guilty till proven innocent).He,too, would not comply with booking procedures, they finally got tired of him being there and stole his fingerprints by force. The guy with the suspended liscence was never arrested! Whether you all agree with the drivers liscense issue or not, I think you will agree that it is a waste of tax dollars to be arresting and harrassing harmless people like this while rapists and murderers and drug lords go free!

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), October 25, 2000.