For Democrats and other Socialists : LUSENET : Countryside : One Thread

I've been thinking. Personally, I like you Democrats just as much as I like Republicans and Greens and my guys, Libertarians, but I want you to think about something. Before you start telling us how wonderful Gore and his bro' bill clinton are, remember this. You know when clinton vetoed that bill to discontinue the estate tax? And Algore said that was a good thing because "It isn't right for someone to work all their lives to have something then die and let people (his family) who did nothing for it have it. It should go to the US government". (He really said that!) Well, when my dad died my mother found out that she owed $90,000 in estate taxes in along with all the other state and federal capital gains taxes and others. She had to sell the family farm quickly to pay these taxes because the government charges something like 21% interest on unpaid taxes. She sold the family farm, paid all the taxes she owed and now, at age 90 years, she's blessed with good health and a family that loves her, but I have to support her because the government wiped her out. Is this what you want for your kids? If you die they will have to sell the farm to pay the taxes unless they have thousands of dollars in cash laying around to give to the government.

-- Joe Cole (, September 08, 2000


Joe, You need to post your mama's story on every internet site you know of; send letters to the editor to every newspaper you know!!!!

If the Democrats keep the white house I don't know what will be in store for our country BUT IT REALLY AND TRULY FRIGHTENS ME!!!

As an investigative reporter for the last 20 years, I have seen our government sink, faster and faster and faster into a swamp we may never be able to extradite ourselves from! Like you, my bent is further and further toward the Libertarian point of view! We must make a stand and we must do it QUICKLY!!!!!

-- Suzy in 'Bama (, September 08, 2000.

I am giving my stuff to my children as I acquire it. When I die there will be nothing to collect because the people who should collect it already have. Bonds you can buy as 'Bearer" My father did that. Also, put the farm in your kids name now and have a contract made up between you that they will care for you. There are loopholes, but thare should not have to be!!! Ada

-- Aagje Franken (, September 08, 2000.

My point is not whether there are loopholes for things like this, but that we have a government that thinks so little of the citizens that they think it's ok to do things like this. Not to mention that head Nazi Janet Reno supports things like Waco and Ruby Ridge. I think things have gone too far with this government.

-- Joe Cole (, September 08, 2000.

with my grandmother being very ill now my mom needed to decied how to care for her . my mother found out if my granmother were to go in a nursing home the state would freeze all her assets and sell anything to pay the nursing home granfather worked for matins air force , building planes since he was 16 he died at 68 every week he got a bond the state wanted those too. the only thing my mom could do was sell her house move in w/ my granmother have the deed turned over to her and we fixed a whole floor of the house up for grandmother. she can not do steps so we made a kitchen bathroom and bedroom for her and have a nurse come in durning the days when no one is home. we pay for that ourselves so the state wont get involved. its realy sad.

-- renee oneill (, September 08, 2000.

I agree, loopholes should not be nec. It's just a way of coping. I too am disappointed with our government. Ada

-- Aagje Franken (, September 08, 2000.

Well, I'm with you! I, too, am a Libertarian. I would vote for Harry, but Gore scares the bejusus out of me so much I have to support Bush. Apparently, most men feel the same way. It is the women who are the Gore supporters! Is it time to repeal the 19th amendment? Just kidding gals! (and yes, I know that is between politically incorrect and sexual harassment!). Maggie feels the same way as I and most people I know. Just who ARE the Gore supporters? I conclude they must be Gimme Girls and PETA pukes! Gotta stop - my keyboard is starting to expel sparks! GL!

-- Brad (, September 08, 2000.

That's just it! WHY do you have to vote for Bush because he is a lesser evil? We are being blackmailed by people who say: If you don't vote you can't complain. Well, If everybody that feels neither candidate is any good, refuses to vote, would that not send a powerful message? Some GOOD candidate may be found for the next election. I know I will get a lot of reactions to this, but I think it will work. Ada

-- Aagje Franken (, September 08, 2000.

Aagje, because he's way way way lesser evil. People not voting or people not becoming informed before voting is how we got the organized crime that's in the White House now.

-- Joe Cole (, September 08, 2000.

Gosh, I believe this is just what I said was happening in the Liberalism thread. Doesn't it make you feel better that the money was taken from the Super rich(your mother) and given to the poor? No? Well, there are a whole lot of people out there who want that very thing to happen. I'm with Brad, Bush has my vote, cause I'd sooner be boiled in oil than have Al gore for a president.

Little bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (, September 08, 2000.

It would be nice if they could figure out a "none of the above" vote. If it got the majority, the voters got one more chance with all new candidates, but you could only have it once, otherwise we would be at the polls for years. We have a runoff, why not a none of the above clean start?

-- Jay Blair (, September 08, 2000.

How about survivorship, or joint ownership, perpituity of family. This how my fanily has done it for 4 generations, it goes to the survivor/partner.??

-- Hendo (OR) (, September 08, 2000.

Joe, I hate to rain on this parade, but what we are seeing with the rise of confiscatory government is nothing more than history repeating itself. If you can, find a summary of Gibbon's "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire." We are doing no less. The rise and fall of nations and their economies is no different from the birth, life and death of a person. We are all strong, healthy,idealist and optimistic when we are young. As we age, we become more cynical, inactive and passive. Eventually we decide that we have had enough and trade comfort and security for freedom and opportunity. At least mose of us do. A few, a very few, hold on to the Quixote complex until someone shovels dirt in their face.

-- John and Pat James (, September 08, 2000.

Frankly I dont believe that either candidate is going to do much of anything, just more of the same old. I have become one of those cynical voters!

The founding fathers and all those people that fought in the revolutionary war and died for a free country-free from the overwhelming taxation and want of representation in government are rolling over in their graves. No sooner could an average joe wanting to change things for the better be elected than could I build some wings and fly to the moon. (Unless he has several million in backing)

It has come to the point that it so frustating that its impossible to weed through, and government has a taken on a life of it own with no one strong enough to change all that needs to be changed. A strong sense of good and bad doesnt help, I dont think that most politicians start out to be bad. The system just doesnt allow for change to statis quo.

We are being crushed by taxes that help to fund a government that we expect to save us from our own stupidity. Not to mention that the land of the free has become a country were you cant build a house on the land you own with out someone telling you how to do it, where to do it, and when to do it, no matter what you want. Unfortunately that is only one small example of the freedoms that we have lost and that continue to be taken "for the good of all".

I guess that a vote for either candidate is a wasted vote.

Time for me to put my soap box away for the night. Tami in WI

-- Tami Bowser (, September 09, 2000.

You got it, sister. Short and to the point! Cash is King, wrong is right, freedom is slavery. A system growing by methods to beat the original system.

-- Doreen (, September 09, 2000.

I'm confused Joe!When my dad died everything was willed to my Mom (everything was in both of their names) and she didn't pay any estate taxes or anything.This is how my husband and I have our estate arranged.Is my Moms lack of paying not always the case in these types of arrangements?My husband and I want to protect each other.Oh,in the cases of terminal illness,I did have a friend whose husband had incurable cancer and they had everything changed over into her name before her husband passed away just to avoid any legal problems.

-- nobrabbit (, September 09, 2000.

I dont read long posts, usually. But I hope you read this one, because it covers several threads.

As usual, there are many many sides to the post at hand (and the replies). I, of course, think of Countryside (my family business and my whole life). I started it with a $25 classified ad in Organic Gardening and Farming in 1969. And a printing press in our homestead house. Now its worth... I really don't know, but Ill bet its a lot more than $25! (As I understand it, thats what the IRS would say we have in it, with a few exceptions.)

BUT. What did we (Di and I) put into it? For YEARS, we worked for NOTHING. (Lived off the homestead. The mag was a labor of love.) Just ran across a journal entry that noted (10 years ago) we were making $12,000 a year off the magazine. And that was a high point.When a normal journalist was making $44,000. And that didnt bother me.

But when we croak and the feds figger out what they think the thing is worth... which will almost certainly be more than what it takes in in a year... the kids will probably have to sell it (to Hearst, or some other Big Buck outfit) just because they cant pay the taxes. (And can you imagine what a fine magazine Countryside will be then?)

Nobody got rich on this thing, but the government will! (Relatively speaking, of course.) And that boils my gizzard.

But this isn't just a matter of us rich folks passing on wealth to our heirs. Its a matter of passing on what we old-timers have built up, to Hearst, or in the case of a farm, to some agribusiness outfit (ConAgra---Supermarket to the World) or the local hardware store to Wal-Mart. Is that democracy?

And then theres the problem that if you don't get to keep (or pass on) what you work for, why work? And then what will happen to the government (think taxes---and we pay plenty---sales, real estate, all the employee FICA and whatnot), and the country (and the people who don't put out the effort to be entrepreneurs)?

This also should go on another thread (doggonit, we really need an editor here!) but

About 2400 years ago, Plato noted that dictatorship is followed by monarchy, monarchy is followed by democracy, democracy by anarchy, and anarchy by dictatorship. And while he felt that democracy was the best form of government, people living under a democracy come to expect more than they deserve, and theyll use any means at their disposal to get what they think they deserve.

(Thinking of the Lets all us homesteaders move to Texas et al posts here. Also, how did Plato know all that? Inside info from Atlantis [per a Ken "Grubhoe" Scharabok thread?])

So Im sitting here, pondering all this... and thinking that maybe I had it right many years ago. I shoulda been a monk, like I started out to be. Before I joined the marines, and went to college, and met Diane... (Which would also get us back to the How many kids thread and sigh).

Dont even ASK me what I think about the throwing your vote away nonsense!

Aint life interesting? No wonder I love milking goats and weeding tomatoes!.Only things that make sense any more. ---Jd

-- Jd (, September 10, 2000.

Oh, nobrabbit: This is part of the problem of misunderstanding. If your folks had less than $600,000 in assets, there was no estate tax. But if they owned a BUSINESS---$600,000 is peanuts. A corner gas station is worth that much today...but nobody is getting rich off that. And a farm is as bad, or worse. (Old saying: Farmers don't get rich until they're dead.)

But if the children have to sell the farm to pay the taxes, they don't get rich either. The only winner is the Feds. (Who will squander the money anyway, but that's in addition to the socialist implications).

-- Nick (, September 10, 2000.

I am with you Jd. Sometimes it seems only the earth God made hasn't gone insane. That's why gardening brings so much peace. I often walk around my farm and try to stretch my mind around where we came from when the first pioneer eyes saw this land, to where we are now. I honestly don't think there has been improvement. I, like you don't want to get rid of technology, but I would like to see a more reasonable approach to it's use. I have to say that I appreciated your dreams for the future during the Y2k issues. They were a little idealistic, but great things happen when a man dreams big. I know that there will never be the perfect life on this earth, but we all have the responsibility to carve out our own little bit of perfection. If each and every person does his part, then good things will happen. Our forefathers didn't let the fact that they were in the minority stop them from achieving greatness. They tried to give us the tools to have freedom for all, but it was up to the future generations to carry the mantle of freedom. We've blown it, but the mantle of freedom still lies in our hands. It is important that we not give up and just garden. It is important that we take an active role in the future for our children. Fight the good fight. The pioneers of this great land had to fight hunger and cold, and the lack of shelter. We don't have to fight those things in the same way they did, but perhaps like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, our fight maybe more critical. The fight to preserve freedom for the coming generation, and freedom starts in our homes and communities, and even more than that in our very minds. For we cannot pursue the cause of freedom if we lose heart before the battle has even begun. We must be vigilant, for lack of vigilance is what brought us here. We must have the courage to vote wasted or not. Those people who wish to steal the gift given by the blood of those who came before, can be ejected from their lofts of power even as the very King of England was ejected from these shores so long ago, but not if there are no men left to eject them.

Little bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (, September 11, 2000.

I agree Joe and JD, that someone that has worked hard all their lives shouldn't have turn over everything they have worked for, to the government. But, the misconception is that it is solely the fault of a Democrat or solialist (as Joe says). There was 7.4 million dollars in congressional contributions from 1979 to 1995 from large chemical corporations. 38 contibutions were to republicans and 12 to democrats. Just who do you all think are buying up the family farms? Maybe Monsanto? What party does Monsanto give the most money to? Where do all these ex-politicians go to work after they have quit government? The richest 1 percent of all Americans own 40 percent of the assests. Do you all think they are all Democrats? The corporations share of taxes paid has fallen from 33 percent in the 40's to 15 percent in the 90's. OUR share of taxes has risen from 44 percent to 73 percent.

We Americans are so busy pointing fingers at each other in the name of party loyalty, that both parties are doing whatever they want right under our noses. Let's face it, we're getting slapped on one cheek by the democrats and on the other by the republicans. I guess you just have to pick which one doesn't hit as hard.

-- Annie (, September 11, 2000.


"The corporations share of taxes paid has fallen from 33 percent in the 40's to 15 percent in the 90's. OUR share of taxes has risen from 44 percent to 73 percent.

Do you know who the majority party was during nearly that entire time period? Do you know who instituted the income tax? Do you know which platform the income tax was stolen from and who pushed for it in these united States or why? Do you know who "owned" Gore Sr and how Gore Jr became an oil magnate?

Im not a republican but I feel the need to point out that you seem to be falsely attributing some things to them (on this thread and others). Dont buy into the "Republicans are for the corporations" nonsense and take a look into the answers to the above questions. You may find some very interesting answers.

-- William in WI (, September 11, 2000.

Any body can form a corporation and beat paying taxes, avoid the whole inheritance issue, etc. If I were a family farm, I would consider so doing, just to let the kids hang onto the assets. Since I have neither family farm, wealth, nor kids, it's rather moot! I don't claim to be an expert on this (actually very far from it) but the rich, besides having accumulated wealth, often times accumulate some specialized knowledge. And how convenient for everyone else to not know...

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, would be an alternative, I guess.

-- sheepish (, September 11, 2000.

I dont know where you got your information, Sheepish, but many family farms (and other small businesses) are incorporated, and they dont avoid taxes or inheritance problems. It aint that simple.

-- Jd (, September 11, 2000.

Goodness gracious! (My grandmother's phrase when she really meant something much more earthy!) Here's my understanding, and you may disagree. Today's socialists are yesterday's communists. Today's democrats are yesterday's socialists. Today's republicans are yesterday's democrats. And of all the parties left today, only the Libertarians come close to the thoughts of our founding fathers (OK, and mothers - we all know where the real power was!). Point is" we are sliding down the slope to communism/socialism. Bush is not necessarily the savior, but he is a WHOLE LOT better than the communist/socialist Algore. Much like the communists, who have infinite patience, we must take back the country one step at a time. Let's get Bush in this time, to thwart the communist influx, then take the next step at the next opportunity. Let's just not lose ground! Brad the Meek

-- Brad (, September 11, 2000.

Hey there, William! I realize who has had control of the congress for the best part of the last 50 years or so. And I agree with you to a point. And I also know the corporations and special interest have the democrats in their hip pocket, too. But I guess the point I have been trying to make is this...There are two sides to everything. Just because someone is a democrat, doesn't make him a communist. Just as being a republican doesn't make you a rich, racist. Unless you're really extreme, either way. Which I don't think most people are. I'm just really tired of the pointing and name calling we do to our fellow countrymen. I hope the politicans and news media are proud, they've done a wonderful job of dividing and brainwashing us. (for the record, I've never even voted democrat)

-- Annie (, September 11, 2000.

JD: Lets say you gotta farm thats worth $1,800,000. Its solely owned by the founder. The founder incorporates and the family is brought into the picture. Assume there are six family members who become stockholders with equal equity.That effectively brings the assets of the farm founder into the $300,000 range which is below the taxable threshold doesn't it?

-- john leake (, September 11, 2000.

When people want what isn't theirs or what isn't given to them by the rightful owners I believe that it is called "coveting". We had another thread on that. Why does anyone think it's a good and honest and morally correct thing to take the labor of someones life and give it to the government for "redistribution"? Why make petty little connivers out of all us to try to break things down so that we don't have to give what we have made to the government? When laws make liars out of otherwise honest people, shouldn't those laws be examined in the light and either upheld or thrown out ? If you have laws that render injustices and then make more laws to further or limit the injustices, it all becomes meaningless and makes people "sneaky".

I would rather weed my garden and play frisbee with my dogs than think about the fact that if I leave my 8.473 acres I could be a felon in a second, but as Jd said, anarchy follows democracy; even though we were formed as a democratic republic, everyone now cries for democracy so if perception is the judgement of truth, then I spose we better buckle up for the anarchy. But perhaps we will have a taste of communism to start out with.

-- Doreen (, September 12, 2000.

Doreen, you say, "When people want what isn't theirs or what isn't given to them by the rightful owners I believe that it is called "coveting". But you ignore the point that many, if not most, of the "super rich" got their fortunes by manipulating the stock market, the oil industry (read "The Prize" someday). They also have been complicit in starting wars for the sole purpose of profiteering. Some of them have struck immoral deals with immoral dictators, taking the land from farmers and others in various countries (Read "Bitter Fruit" for an expose' on the United Fruit Company, and its involvement in the overthrow of the democratically elected government in Guatemala, for one example).

My point is that the folks who are most in need of sharing their wealth may not be the rightful owners in the first place.

I also will repeat what I've said on the "Liberalism" thread: you don't have to ELIMINATE the inheritance tax in order to protect normal people, including farmers, from it. It can be adjusted in whatever way we like.

How large an exemption would you think adequate to protect a "family" farm? Maybe we should look at putting that size exemption into the inheritance tax regulations, instead of elimintating it.

Personally, I have NO sympathy for someone who is worth billions of dollars. Even if you took 60% of their assets, their kids would still be billionaires.


-- jumpoffjoe (, September 12, 2000.

JOJ, why should the government take anything from a family? When the government starts taking private property that's the time for a revolution. And what's this nonsnese about rich people starting wars and stuff to get their money? That's about the craziest thing I've ever heard of. You liberals are just so jealous of successful people. If someone makes a lot of money it's his. There's no reason he should give one penny of it to anyone other than his normal share of the taxes. It just burns me up when I hear someone say that because someone has made a lot of money he should give it to "the poor".

-- Joe Cole (, September 12, 2000.

But Joe, you say yourself, "There's no reason he should give one penny of it to anyone other than his normal share of the taxes". . And you say, "When the government starts taking private property that's the time for a revolution". It would seem that we are only disagreeing on the definition of "normal share"

If you really believe that we have gone to war strictly for "moral" reasons, I suggest that you have a lot to learn. Grow up. Just one example: Rockefeller. Study the history of the Rockefeller family in any encyclopedia, or history book, or look it up on line. Better yet, read the book I mentioned earlier; it's a history of the oil industry from the discovery by Charles Edwin Drake all the way to the late twentieth century. Even I, a bit of a curmudgeon, was shocked at the wheelings and dealings by the big boys in the oil industry in the US and worldwide.

By the way, you are making a very large jump in reasoning to think I am "jealous" of "successful people". I AM a successful person, both materialistically and spiritually. I don't know your status on either score, but, if you are not MATERIALISTICALLY successful, you should really rethink your worship of the rich boys, who have deluded you into thinking you are supporting free enterprise by cutting their taxes. THEY certainly wouldn't want to rely on free enterprise, as they'd actually have to work to earn their money in that system, as I did, and as many other "middle class" folks have had to do for their entire working career, rather than buying politicians to make their billions.


-- jumpoffjoe (, September 12, 2000.

JOJ, I requested (actually my wonderful Mom did for me) The Prize at the library. It's in transit now, so maybe I should have it in a day or so. I am looking forward to the read. Thanks for the tip.

-- sheepish (, September 12, 2000.

I just finished reading all the answers and i"m really suprised. To have freedom you need to have room. To have room you have to control population or eliminate population. If what you want to do interfears with what others want to do, who wins? You have the right to do as you wish as long as it doesn't hurt someone else. As far as the taxes go, a little research can take care of the problem. I don't believe I have ever paid over 15% in Federal tax(leagaly). But state and local taxes take a big chunk and the Feds seem to get the blame. The first 650,000 in an estate is tax free and there are other ways of saving even more. But it takes planing and finding the answers. It also seems that noone has paid attention to the bills that clinton vetoed over the last 8 years. So many anti environment attachments were tied to those bills that if passed big business would have been very pleased. I believe Gore was partly responsable for those vetos. Take a look around you. If you don't save it today consider it gone. We could all be in the same boat with Texas. After all who needs air or water? When there no controls on business they could fire you if you had an accident and lost a limb and pay nothing. Want to go back to that system? Remember the people that owned this land were almost killed off just so you could have it.

-- Nick Tepsick (, September 12, 2000.

JOJ, I don't even begin to pretend that corporations are anything more than a fictitious entity for people who desire to make more money than can possibly be healthy for anything to hide behind. HOWEVER, it is a dangerous precedent to have all of the tax laws we have that require CPA's with law degrees to figure out and then try to hit the rich with a financial blow to assuage our sense of right and wrong. That is exactly the kind of thinking that got us into the mess with income tax to begin with.

See, to me it all breaks down to the big bad federal government corruption. Because in a free and open market there will be those who succeed wildly and those who fail miserably, but when you have lobbying of politicians by emmisaries of corporations the laws tend to fall in favor of the corporations as opposed to the citizenry. Also, you have these poloiticians helping these corporations out with tax incentives and a myriad of other things. So I see your point, and in a sense, albeit very limited, I agree, but I think the dangers far outweigh the benefits in this kind of reasoning.

An intelligent and truly informed public will tend to make better choices than one that is intentionally dumbed down and not given true facts. It just gets very difficult to sort all of the facts out anymore.

Nick, are you suggesting that we stifle businesses and kill the free market to "save" the environment? Who's in charge of the saving? Al Gore or a gaggle of Federal Agencies waiting to destroy your outhouse or what have you? The same Feds who gave the American Indians the small pox laden blankets and broke every treaty they ever signed with them? If you trust Al Gore,I'm scared. Don't you think that most of the pollution has come to be through lack of knowledge and also lack of personal responsibility? When the guy driving the oil truck has no vested interest in the company the leak at the end of the day is "not his problem". I digress. Most of the points you brought up would take another thread to begin to address.....

-- doreen (, September 12, 2000.


Why would you have to stifel business at all. Most people just don't want change so they make up excuses to not do something. Even if if means destroying what you need to live. We are supposed to be smarter than that, but I find that usually we are not. I agree with wanting freedom and in a way I have quite a bit of it. But the main point is that we are all conected and when an eco system breaks down completely. The larger top of the stack part of the system is the last to die. It may very well be too late, but we should try to do something. So use the tools at hand not those you would like to have.

-- Nick Tepsick (, September 13, 2000.

What are your tools, Nick?

-- Doreen (, September 13, 2000.

Doreen, you make some very good points. I agree with your statement "it is a dangerous precedent to have all of the tax laws we have that require CPA's with law degrees to figure out and then try to hit the rich with a financial blow to assuage our sense of right and wrong". Do you remember the "tax simplification bill" of the early nineties (I think)? My accountant called it the "tax preparers' job security bill".

Nevertheless, I don't want to take the heat off the big corporations and ridiculously rich folks, particularly if they got rich not by using the "free market", but rather by using crooked dealings with government regulators, other large businesses, etc. Also, many of these rich people and businesses utilized laws and rules created by government to get special treatment, often the same government folks who they give large contributions to. I don't think this is what you mean by free market -- it's not. It's free corruption.

I suspect that I am being hopelessly naive, but it seems to me that we would be better off to eliminated the IRS and replace it with a simple sales tax. If you want to save taxes, don't buy so much "stuff". It might help clean up our environment at the same time, if folks paid a bit more attention to what they bought.


-- jumpoffjoe (, September 14, 2000.


The tools I have are perserverence,and patience for as long as I need them. They work in all situations. Weather it be fighing the local tax collector or trying to get something done in state or federal government. The best way for things to get done is by referendum on the ballot. Here in Kentucky the republicans have stopped the bottle bill and the only thing left is to put it on the ballot. It has been a long fight but it will be won.

-- Nick Tepsick (, September 17, 2000.

Nick, congrats on your perseverance on the bottle bill. As you most likely kmow, we in Oregon have had the bottle bill for many years (like over thirty, I think). I love it. I'd like to see something like it for other containers besides beer and soft drinks, though. I think it would be way cool to have most everything packaged in standardized, reusable containers. Maybe extra heavy duty glass canning jars.

In Oregon the process you are using is called the "initiative process". Here, the "referendum" is a law which is also voted on by the citizens, but it is proposed by the legislature. The initiative is proposed by the citizenry, and is only put on the ballot if enough signatures are collected.

The initiative process is under strong attack by many in the government, as it is seen as a threat, unfortunately.


-- jumpoffjoe (, September 19, 2000.

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