Are you ready to register your Guns? : LUSENET : Countryside : One Thread

You know there are three stages to gun control. 1)Licensing and registration 2)Banning all registered guns 3) Tyrannical control over the populace. Historically everytime the first has happened, the other two followed close behind. Just goes to show people never learn. Please puruse the following.

Little Bit Farm

From: "ron brabant" - Senate Bill SB-2099 will require us to put on our 2000 1040 federal tax form all guns that you have or own. It may require fingerprints and a tax of $50 per gun.

The full text of the proposed amendment is on the U.S. Senate homepage. You can find the bill by doing a search by the bill number. (SB-2099)

Please send a copy of this e-mail to every gun owner you know to help STOP this bill!! ============================================================================ ==========

SB 2099 Handgun Safety and Registration Act of 2000 (Introduced in the Senate)

Mr. REED introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on Finance

S 2099 IS A BILL

To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to require the registration of handguns, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,


This Act may be cited as the `Handgun Safety and Registration Act of 2000'.



(1) IN GENERAL- Section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (defining firearm) is amended by striking `and (8) a destructive device' and inserting `(8) a handgun; and (9) a destructive device'.

(2) DEFINITION OF HANDGUN- Section 5845 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to definitions) is amended by adding at the end the following:


`(1) IN GENERAL- The term `handgun' means any weapon (including a starter gun) which--

`(A) is designed to or may be readily converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, and

`(B) has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.

`(2) DISASSEMBLED PARTS INCLUDED- Such term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, and any combination of parts from which a handgun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

`(3) EXCLUSION- Such term shall not include a firearm classified as `any other weapon' under subsection (e).'.

(b) TRANSFER TAX IMPOSED ON HANDGUNS- Section 5811(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to rate) is amended by inserting `or as a handgun under section 5845(a)(8)' after `section 5845(e)'.

(c) TAX ON MAKING FIREARMS IMPOSED ON HANDGUNS- Section 5821(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to rate) is amended by inserting `, except, the tax on any firearm classified as a handgun under section 5845(a)(8) shall be at the rate of $50 for each such firearm made' after `firearm made'.


(1) IN GENERAL- Section 5844 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to importation) is amended by adding at the end the following: `This section shall not apply to any firearm classified as a handgun under section 5845(a)(8).'.

(2) CONFORMING AMENDMENT- Section 925(d)(3) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting `(without regard to paragraph (8) thereof)' after `section 5845(a)'.


(1) IN GENERAL- Section 6103(o) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to disclosure of returns and return information with respect to certain taxes) is amended by adding at the end the following:

`(3) TAXES IMPOSED ON TRANSFER OF HANDGUNS- Returns and return information with respect to taxes imposed by part II of subchapter A of chapter 53 (relating to tax on transferring firearms) on any firearm classified as a handgun under section 5845(a)(8) shall be available in an on-line format for inspection by or disclosure to officers and employees of--

`(A) any Federal law enforcement agency, and

`(B) any State or local law enforcement agency,

whose official duties require such inspection or disclosure.'.

(2) CONFORMING AMENDMENTS- Section 6103(p)(4) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 is amended--

(A) in the matter preceding subparagraph (A)--

(i) by striking `or (o)(1)' and inserting `(o)(1), or (o)(3)(A)',

(ii) by striking `or (l)(6)' and inserting `(l)(6)',

(iii) by inserting `or (o)(3)(B),' after `(16),', and

(B) in subparagraph (F)(i)--

(i) by striking `or (l)(6)' and inserting `(l)(6)', and

(ii) by inserting `or (o)(3)(B),' after `(16),', and

(C) in subparagraph (F)(ii), by striking `or (o)(1)' and inserting `, (o)(1), or (o)(3)(A)'.


(1) IN GENERAL- Any person possessing any firearm classified as a handgun under section 5845(a)(8) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 not registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record maintained by the Secretary of the Treasury under section 5841 of such Code shall register such handgun--

(A) within 1 year of the date of the enactment of this Act, or

(B) upon the transfer of such handgun before such 1 year anniversary date.

(2) TREATMENT OF REGISTRATION AS TRANSFER- For purposes of any tax imposed by part II of subchapter A of chapter 53 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (relating to tax on transferring firearms) on any firearm classified as a handgun under section 5845(a)(8) of such Code, any registration of such handgun under paragraph (1)(A) shall be considered a transfer of such handgun.

(3) NONAPPLICATION OF PENALTY- Section 5861(d) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 shall not apply with respect to the possession of any handgun before the date of the registration of such handgun under paragraph (1).


(1) AVAILABILITY- To promote and assist compliance with the handgun registration requirements under the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended by this section, the Secretary of the Treasury shall make available such registration and fingerprint forms as may be required by the public for compliance with such requirements--

(A) to State and local law enforcement agencies and facilities of the Department of the Treasury throughout the States, the United States Postal Service, and such other agencies and departments of the Federal Government as the Secretary determines would aid in making such forms available to the public; and

(B) through the Internet in a downloadable format.

(2) SINGLE FORM- The Secretary of the Treasury shall make available registration forms that allow an individual to register the possession or transfer of more than 1 firearm classified as a handgun under section 5845(a)(8) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 on a single form.

(h) PROGRAM OF PUBLIC AWARENESS- Within 60 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of the Treasury shall commence a program to broaden public awareness of the handgun registration requirements under the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended by this section. Such program may include voluntary cooperative efforts with Federal, State, and local law enforcement agencies and public service announcements as deemed appropriate by the Secretary.

(i) AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS- There are authorized to be appropriated such sums as may be necessary for the Secretary of the Treasury to carry out the provisions of and amendments made by this Act.

(j) EFFECTIVE DATE- The amendments made by this section shall take effect on the date of the enactment of this Act. ============================================================================

-- Little bit Farm (, August 29, 2000


LBF: More big brother, and I know for a fact my husband will not voluntarily register any of his weapons. When we moved to Hawaii, we had to register the ones we brought in with us, as there was a record on our moving inventory, but it will be a cold day before we would do it on what we have now. In Colorado last year the Governor tried to pass a bill requiring all gun owners to have mandatory trigger locks on all weapons. Didn't fly, and I doubt this one will either. Just too much opposition. It just falls back on gun owners again, to teach and comply with safety regulations, as criminals will get guns if they want them, no matter what regulations and laws are passed. Jan

-- Jan in Colorado (, August 29, 2000.

I will not register my guns, ever. I haven't bought a gun from a licensed dealer in 20 years. I always buy from an individual so there is no record of the sale. A couple of my guns I bought during this time have been from police officers who share my views.

-- Joe Cole (, August 29, 2000.

Here is some more. Now I ask you why would the government feel this is necessary? I bet Joel Knows.

Little Bit farm

Please read and pass this on to ALL YOU KNOW!!!

Subject: HR 4205: They want your M-1 carbine, your P-51, AND your manuals

(Still more treason. Let's disarm the public of ALL surplus military equipment, even if they can PROVE they purchased it legally! It's obvious they bad guys are very worried about the ability to "resist". This is long but worth the read.)

This is Not a Drill: HR 4205 Could Wreck Your Life

> Floyd D. Spence National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2001, >has been passed by the House and referred to the Senate. Subsequently the >Senate voted on Senator John Warner's bill and substituted the language of >H.R. 4205 and the two bills were referred to the Conference Committee. >Senate and House staffers are now working the bill for resubmission in its >final form to their respective bodies of Congress.

> You won't believe it, unless you see it, so please go to the website and >read what the bill says. Not only aircraft, but all kinds of militaria, >including your M-1 carbine, are specifically subject to demilitarization >(being rendered useless) under this bill.

It's no matter that you acquired >these things legitimately; even if you have a gold-plated bill of sale from >the Pentagon, signed by Colin Powell, you may still have to surrender your >airplane or memorabilia to the feds for destruction. Even though they said >you could own it the way they sold it to you, if this passes, you can't.

> bin/query/D?c106:3:./temp/~c106CNQRtl:e114236: > > SEC. 361. AUTHORITY TO ENSURE DEMILITARIZATION OF SIGNIFICANT MILITARY >EQUIPMENT FORMERLY OWNED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE. > (a) AUTHORITY TO REQUIRE DEMILITARIZATION AFTER DISPOSAL- Chapter 153 of >title 10, United States Code, is amended by inserting after section 2572 >the following new section: > Sec. 2573. Significant military equipment: continued authority to require >demilitarization after disposal > `(a) AUTHORITY TO REQUIRE DEMILITARIZATION- The Secretary of Defense may >require any person in possession of significant military equipment formerly >owned by the Department of Defense-- > `(1) to demilitarize the equipment; > `(2) to have the equipment demilitarized by a third party; or > `(3) to return the equipment to the Government for demilitarization. > `(b) COST AND VALIDATION OF DEMILITARIZATION- When the demilitarization of >significant military equipment is carried out by the person in possession >of the equipment pursuant to paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (a), the >person shall be solely responsible for all demilitarization costs, and the >United States shall have the right to validate that the equipment has been >demilitarized. > `(c) RETURN OF EQUIPMENT TO GOVERNMENT- When the Secretary of Defense >requires the return of significant military equipment for demilitarization >by the Government, the Secretary shall bear all costs to transport and >demilitarize the equipment. If the person in possession of the significant >military equipment obtained the property in the manner authorized by law or >regulation and the Secretary determines that the cost to demilitarize and >return the property to the person is prohibitive, the Secretary shall >reimburse the person for the purchase cost of the property and for the >reasonable transportation costs incurred by the person to purchase the >equipment. In case you were wondering what's covered, they tell you: > > > `(f) DEFINITION OF SIGNIFICANT MILITARY EQUIPMENT- In this section, the >term `significant military equipment' means-- > `(1) an article for which special export controls are warranted under the >Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2751 et seq.) because of its capacity >for substantial military utility or capability, as identified on the United >States Munitions List maintained under section 121.1 of title 22, Code of >Federal Regulations; and > `(2) any other article designated by the Department of Defense as >requiring demilitarization before its disposal.'. "" to these people? *(a) >Aircraft, including but not limited to helicopters, non-expansive balloons, >drones, and lighter-than-air aircraft, which are specifically designed, >modified, or equipped for military purposes. This includes but is not >limited ... military training. (See ' 121.3.) > *(b) Military aircraft engines, except reciprocating engines, [and >spacecraft engines] specifically designed or modified for the aircraft in >paragraph (a) of this category. > ...*(e) Inertial navigation systems... > *(f) Developmental aircraft and components thereof... > *(g) Ground effect machines (GEMS) specifically designed or modified for >military use, including but not limited to surface effect machines and >other air cushion vehicles, and all components, parts, and accessories, >attachments, and associated equipment specifically designed or modified for >use with such machines. > [(l) Non-military aircraft inertial navigation systems, except those >systems or components that are standard equipment in civil aircraft, >including spare parts and spare units to be used exclusively for the >maintenance of inertial navigation equipment incorporated in civil aircraft >and that are certified by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) as >being an integral part of such aircraft.] You really need to take a look at >the full text to understand how sweeping this is. Even manuals are to be >demilled (forbidden): (k) Technical Data (as defined in ' 120.21 of this >subchapter) and defense services (as defined in ' 120.8 of this subchapter) >directly related to the defense articles enumerated in paragraphs (a) >through (j) of this category. (See ' 125.4 of this subchapter for >exemptions.) Technical data directly related to the manufacture or >production of any defense articles enumerated elsewhere in this category >that are designated as Significant Military Equipment (SME) shall itself be >designated SME. Section D allows the Secretary of Defense to determine >Demil standards based on the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2751). >Section 2573 would be inserted into the already existing International >Traffic in Arms > Regulations, Part 121- The United States Munitions List. This would allow >the International rules to be applied domestically without due process. >Firearms, aircraft, boats, and military vehicles are all considered > significant equipment. There are some aircraft exceptions that are >specifically listed as exempt but it is a small portion of the >potentially-affected flying Warbird fleet. > There appears to be a complete disregard for personal property rights >where this new legislation is concerned. The Secretary, under this new >section, can order the destruction of any lawfully obtained surplus >military equipment at his or his appointee's discretion. > Reducing an operable piece of equipment or flightworthy aircraft to a >static example is tantamount to destroying it. Its inherent value as an >operable piece of machinery is reduced to fraction of what it was. The > lawful owners of this equipment will not be compensated for their loss. >The forced demilling of legally obtained military firearms is a violation >of the 2nd Amendment, and flies in the face of Constitutionally- protected >property and contract rights. Additionally, this post-sale backpedaling by >the DoD constitutes ex-post-facto lawmaking, specifically forbidden by the >Constitution. The historical loss is incalculable. > There is no time limit. ANY listed significant former DoD equipment falls >under this new regulation. It has been reported that historical operating >Army vehicles have been ordered to be demilled to the point of cutting >holes and making them completely inoperable. The museums that were >entrusted with their care were subsequently billed for the compliance >team's expenses. > Section 362 requires a report be filed annually that covers all sales on >the United States Munitions List. This report shall include the following >for each sale: > (a) date of sale > (b) military dept. conducting the sale > (c) manner in which sale was conducted > (d) military items described in subsection (a) that were sold > (e) purchaser of each item > (f) stated end use of each item > > This provision would allow the Secretary to track items sold and to >retroactively require demilling after the sale was complete. [This would be >a great way for the DoD to have its cake and eat it, too: charging people >for the goods, and then requiring their effective destruction --ed.] > With the inclusion of Sec.361/362 in the final Defense Authorization Bill, >the privately held, legally obtained, former DoD equipment is in jeopardy. >The bill is now in committee and these sections must be removed from the >final draft. > > If these are your people, call them, today! If they are from your state, >call them! If you have a US Representative or Senator that knows them, call >your elected public servant! > > House conference committee members: Spence, Stump, Hunter, Kasich, >Bateman, Hansen, Weldon, Hefley, Saxton, Buyer, Fowler, McHugh, Talen, >Everett, Bartlett, McKeon, J.C.Watts, Thornberry, Hostettler, Skelton, >Sisisky, Spratt, Ortiz, Pickett, Evans, Taylor, Abercrombie, Meehan, >Underwood, Allen, Snyder, Maloney(CT), McIntyre, Tauscher, Thompson (CA). > > Senate Armed Services Committee members: Warner, Smith (NH), Hollings, >McCain, Inhofe, Santorum, Snowe, Roberts, Allard, Hutchinson, Sessions, >Levin, Kennedy, Bingaman, Byrd, Robb, Lieberman, Cleland, Landrieu, Reed. >"""" --ed] > Take a look at what's affected: > > Take a look at the bill itself: > bin/query/D?c106:3:./temp/~c106CNQRtl:e114236:

-- Little bit Farm (, August 29, 2000.

Have you ever checked out this other forum? They are usually interested in the UN, gun control, etc. and probably could provide some answers/info. They also archive posts. Could probably get a pretty lively discussion going... 20uncensored

-- sheepish (, August 29, 2000.

Isn't it beautiful? Our tax dollars at work!

The government we have in place is interested only in elevating their control over us and reducing us to a deeper level of slavery than we already have. If they succeed in disarming us through legislation, we are going to see a real blood bath. Frankly, I would rather not have that, but our elected officials seem intent on bringing things to that point. When do we stand up en masse and say enough is enough? I'm ready, or at least as ready as I ever will be!

-- Doreen (, August 29, 2000.

i know that this question is going to bring a slew of people falsely labeling me a liberal and thinking my brain has been sucked up by government control but...if your not doing anything illegal w/ your gun why do you care who knows that you have one?

-- Amber (, August 29, 2000.

Perhaps you need to take another look at the beginning of Little Bits' post..... history has a way of repeating itself. Secondly, do you care about the constitution? The Bill of Rights? If so, then it does matter. If not, then work to change them and THEN register guns, then you can take them away at will. At least then it would be lawful, instead of subverting the rights of the citizens, who are being governed under the constitutional rule of law! (well, for those of you who actually know &'s suppose to be anyway--you know what I mean). This kind of thinking drives me crazy!!! Think, think, think. If you took this line of reasoning to it's logical conclusion, this means "as long as you are not doing anything wrong" the government should be able to register, check, ect.... anything.

Your kids? Are they being fed properly? Raised in the manner the gov't approves? Being properly dressed? Perhaps they should establish a program to check each & every home with children, to insure proper "child managment". Geesh, if you are not doing anything wrong, why should you care? We could go down the list of areas that "as long as you are not doing anything wrong, why should you care"? Because I value my freedom! I have certain rights guara nteed to me as a United States Citizen! I will NOT give up those rights as long as the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are the foundation on which this country is governed. I am sick to death of this sleazy back door approach to changing the very foundation on which this country stands. Want to change it? Great, do it. But do it up front. Say "We are going to work to abolish the constitution and form a new system of government, all who agree, come alongside. All who disagree, prepare to fight.

This is about more than registering guns. It is about how much freedom we are willing to give up to our benign government. That we may be "safe". Ha, what a joke! Freedom given away stays lost, if not forever, then until blood is shed to reastablish those freedoms. I would much rather retain those we have! They came with a great price paid by those who fought, that we might have them. I honor the sacrifices made, and will not give them up "because I have nothing to hide". God Bless! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (, August 29, 2000.

I think another crucial step would be propaganda and villianization! Gun ownership is certainly not in style these days!

-- Beth Weber (, August 30, 2000.

Wendy, Very well said!!!

Sheepish, I checked out that forum you comparison, I can't believe the high standards of conduct we have here! Intersting subject matter though.

-- Doreen (, August 30, 2000.

History repeats itself because people don't learn. As has been said many times before, "From my cold, dead hands...."

-- ~Rogo (, August 30, 2000.

My hubby checked the NRA website, and they seem to feel that this doesn't have a snowball's chance of passing, and suggest members concentrate their efforts on other, more critical issues that will have a better chance of passing in the near future. Just a thought, but there is no way of enforcing this if it became law, unless the country became as Nazi Germany was, with children reporting on parents, neighbor's telling on neighbors, etc. Hope I don't live to see that! Jan

-- Jan in Colorado (, August 30, 2000.

Jan, not to be rude, but WAKE UP, we're already there. Kids are turning in their parents for "child abuse" every day. Neighbors are reporting neighbors for everthing from child abuse to zoning violations. We are in a sad time these days.

-- John D. in Pa. (, August 30, 2000.

Didn't Australia require gun registration for everyone? I think they are still civilized. Maybe Don or someone else from Oz could help out here.

Until people recognize that it's really our culture of violence that's the root cause of our current crime problem, and as long as we continue to refuse to address it, the gun ownership/registration/trigger lock discussion will never go away. I think bills get introduced all the time for some Representative/Senator to look good to his/her constituents. Nobody wants to tackle the tough stuff like why we chose violent solutions to perceived problems. Oh well...

-- sheepish (, August 30, 2000.

neighbors turning in neighbors.....sounds familiar...give people a new law and they will play both judge and jury.

-- renee oneill (, August 30, 2000.

Amber, one of the main concerns surrounding the issue on gun control and having to register guns is not that anyone is trying to hide anything but they have a concern that should our government get too big for their britches (which some feel they already are) or if we should get a President in office that has a mind like Hitler, he/she could order the military to visit all of the houses with registered guns, totally unannounced, and confiscate their guns. This would leave the populace unarmed and at a distinct disadvantage to defend against a Dictator. The general public, in the U.S., has been lulled into a belief that this could never happen in our country. That is a very dangerous state of affairs. It is that kind of naivete that could lead to a tyrannical takeover. Our collective apathy could make it very easy. For this reason, I am totally against gun control and feel it is very important that we be allowed to own guns without registering them. And I don't own any guns personally nor do I ever plan to unless things get a lot worse than they are now (and even that is taking a risk as things could deteriorate very rapidly and I could find myself unable to obtain guns). But I will defend to the end our right to keep and bear arms. It is our one insurance against tyranny.

-- Colleen (, August 30, 2000.

Bravo Colleen! Couldn't have said it better myself!!!!!

Jim T.

-- Jim Tanner (, August 30, 2000.

Call or write your congressmen. As all before have stated, our rights are being slowly eroded, however, we still have the right to speak whats on our minds and elect our officials. It is very possible this bill may be a bitter root to convince conservatives to pass some other bill in exchange for letting this one die in committee. Or it could be for real, either way, a call or letter to your elected representative will show them where you are in regards to your constituent view and reelection vote.

-- Jay Blair (, August 30, 2000.

thank you for your answers. i did take your views to heart. i guess sometimes i tend to prejudge on certain issues and this is one of them. sorry about that. i do believe in the right to bear arms but sometimes i think people on BOTH sides of the issue take it too far. i know how to load, shoot and be safe with a gun. i'm actually pretty good at it. i do think that some guns shouldn't be available to the public. no deer looks very edible after being blown to bits by an ak-47 so why does the nra say the public should have access to them. i do believe in the rights to own a gun but unfortunatly because of the stupidity of our society i believe we do need limits. on another note about the post about kids running and turning their parents in for child abuse. that's because some children are being brutally beaten by their parents and i would rather endure a false accusation knowing with a clear conscience that i did nothing wrong than have some little child die because no one would listen. thanks for letting me vent.

-- Amber (, August 30, 2000.

WOW! With all that's going on here in Canada, I didn't realize that the US was experiencing the same problem. I believe (don't quote me) that we MUST register handguns, and have for a long time. I don't have a problem with this. As I see it, handguns are MOSTLY for killing people. I understand there can be some sport in target practice. We will soon be required to register shotguns and rifles as well. I had a problem with this, but thought maybe I was being a bit paranoid...that is until I talked to others in my family. I guess we belong to the select few who don't believe society will always have the same rules...good luck in the US, and cross your fingers for us here

-- Rheba (, August 30, 2000.

Amber, the 2nd ammendment wasn't about hunting. It's about being able to take the government back when it becomes tyrrannical, and about being able to dutifully protect you and yours and anyone else who needs it.

I understand and completely empathize with you on child abuse, however, we have the situation now that a person is guilty until proven innocent, and that isn't right, just like the Salem witch trials...the testimony of lying children holds more weight than an adults known character among his/her peers. I know that there are cases of abuse that demand intervention, but that is a whole other topic!

Sheepish, we are a violent society and getting more so everyday. Look at the sports we watch so ardently. Taking the means of self protection from people won't change that, it will only make it more like the aftermath of an English soccer match.

My personal offering on reducing the violence in society would be for parents to lock up the television set and the blood sport video games and maybe read and play and take serious interest in their children. Let's trigger lock tv's! Demand all parents be completely responsible for their children's training and given a state sanctioned course and then license parents.....sounds a bit like too much control,huh? But isn't that where the real root of the youth violence and gang cultures come from? If I am wrong please tell me how.

-- Doreen (, August 30, 2000.

Doreen, I own guns myself, and my husband owns more than I do. We are responsible owners, and I share the sentiment that we have the right to keep and bear arms, like most of you do..esp. self defense.

I have been reacting the last few days to the news about the kids aged 11-19 that have been beating up people in Tacoma for the last few weeks. One victim last week died. They finally got caught. Note: No guns involved. Now the kids are in jail and their families are crying that they were just kids. What the hell is wrong with our society that creates this kind of thinking on the part of kids (to go beat up people for fun, and oops...kill them) and their families to act like, what's up...what do you mean our kid is violent??

We have a serious problem here that goes deeper than the gun issue, is all that I was saying...and I didn't say it very well...sorry. I just cannot begin to comprehend how sick these people are....and yes, maybe the people who were attacked should have been carrying...

-- sheepish (, August 30, 2000.

Sheepish, I had to post that a tic quicker than I wanted to as the computer started whirring and it's new, so I didn't know what to do but hit submit as fast as I could.

I do believe that alot of these "killer kids" are seriously affected by what they see and the incredible violence in our media and recreation.Especially the young males, simply because men are more visual than women. It is exacerbated by the complete lack of individual responsibiluity for actions that we seem to keep fostering...not to belittle the conditions, but we have so many people on anti depressants and brain affecting chemicals that do things and then blame the drugs (which may very well be a causal factor, but who's making them take the drugs?) or like with drunk driving and the like, there is always AA to join to alleviate the probation time. It's us continually stopping people from truly facing the consequences of their actions that cause these problems.

As a small example, a girl I work with has a very bright 8 year old. He's straight A's always. Well the other day she told me how he got a word wrong on a spelling test and gets to re-take the test so he can still be Mr A. But wait, it gets better! They give the kids all of the words that will be on the test on Thursday each Monday. If they get it wrong they can do it over again after they have already been given the answers. That is nuts. Teaching children to think and learn has been thrown out and replaced with "feel good about yourself" platitudes. Maybe I am nuts, but if the child is to learn it seems like he should sometimes fail, and take the consequences of failing.

It all falls back to responsibility which is taught by parents not baby sitters or teachers. We have a massive problem, and I don't know how it's going to get any better through gun control.

-- Doreen (, August 31, 2000.

== WAKE UP, we're already there. Kids are turning in their parents for "child abuse" every day. Neighbors are reporting neighbors for everthing from child abuse to zoning violations. We are in a sad time these days. ==

We are in a serious drought, supposedly. I say that 'cause I've been told by those that know, that there's plenty of water. Since I've been a little kid they've been saying we're gonna run out of water. Regardless, city folks with lawns are now allowed only one assigned day to water per week, between certain hours. The tv is constantly giving a number for citizens to report offenders, be they neighbors or businesses.

There's water cops going up to homes and giving citations. Guess there's not enough criminals to chase. What's funny is that some areas are fining people for letting their lawns go brown! What a mixed up country!

-- ~Rogo (, August 31, 2000.

Doreen, thoughtful answer. I agree. What's up with a school system that doesn't understand the educational value of failure?!! I hope that somehow, in some fashion, this stupid election dialog about helping schools will somehow bring about something positive...I'm a bit cynical though! And of course, I would love all communities to get involved with their schools. But it starts with each individual person deciding that they matter to society; that they can be part of a solution. I just don't see people acting that way much anymore, at least anyone under about 75. There's so many dysfunctional people who clearly don't get it. They just sit stupified on the sidelines.

Well this is supposed to be about gun control. I'm off topic, and sleepy and not making sense, and as usual just hogging bandwidth. Maybe another topic for discussion sometime.

-- sheepish (, August 31, 2000.

No I am not ready to register my guns. I guess that it's been over 13 years since I went deer hunting. Other than 25 Rattle snakes, 8 copperheads, several watermoccasons and the assorted Tin cans my guns have been resting in the Locked gun case.

I taught my nephew good gun handling starting when he was 6, by nine he had a healthy respect for firearms, by 13...Well he showed that knowledge can be a good thing. I vote EDUCATION of safe gun handlin in schools. My nephew (13) saved a fellow student and a teacher when he saw a 15 year old holding a hammerless "25-automatic" pistol. The gunweilder stated the gun was not loaded. My nephew seeing the firing pin. Instantly informed the teacher & the gunholder that he was wrong the gun was loaded. If he had waited or not been gun savy the youth holding the gun would have fired it into the teacher thinking it a "joke". My nephew was awarded a certificate for Bravery by the School. BUT the media critized him for being knowledgeable of firearms. Go figure...

:) wizard

-- Kenneth (, August 31, 2000.

i have a few things to say regarding the registration of guns. number one is by our constitution we have the right to carry guns not with the blessing of the government but as one of our basic rights by the bill of rights. i think that without knowing it our forefathers put in protection for we the people for things like a un government. the people who have died in battle for this country and us did it for the peoples rights not the governments.

as to not registering guns i am in agreement to buying from private sellers and bypassing the paper trail while we can. i also suggest that whenever we buy amo for our guns we do so with cash only no checks or credit cards. as with carnivore etc. do you really trust our current government not to check paper trails for those that have guns but have not registered them by checking for anyone who is buying supplies that can't be used unless you have a gun? just a thought.

i also agree with the posts regarding child abuse and other things that your neighbors can report you for without worrying about you finding out who reported you. if you remember waco at the end it was brought up by dear janet that we had to move because of child abuse in the compound. i challenge any of you to show me in the atf charter where is says they are to investigate child abuse. child abuse and drugs are used whenever possible to get the citizens to go along with the government in order to take away our rights. i do not agree with child abuse i think it is wrong and we need to do all we can to prevent it but with the powers and the fact that all are inocent until proven guilty. i think we are doing something wrong when we say we are free when with our current prison population we are in the top five nations in the world by percentage of our population is behind bars. just some of my thoughts gail

-- gail missouri ozarks (, September 01, 2000.

Well cited, Little Bit, may your tribe increase. And that is another good point, Doreen, televisions need to be banned, not guns. But the only way short of an absolute revolution that this politically correct, regulatory, confiscatory, totalitarian nightmare is ever going to end is for every honest God fearing man and woman in America to register to vote, practice jury nullification on every bad law, and realize that liberals are literally destroying this nation.


-- Rags in Alabama (, September 01, 2000.

Good grief. This rhetoric is getting thicker than my first batches of soap. I have guns; I agree with you; and I'm a middle of the road liberal. Give me a break! We don't represent evil incarnate, for heaven's sake!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.ent), September 01, 2000.

Sheepish! We have been friends for a long while! You are as much a liberal as I am a Martian! And there is no such thing as middle of the road, unless you consider the 'possums and 'coons. Roadkill! Come-on! We are primarily the folks who want a country as envisioned by the founding fathers - FREE! And unencumbered by oppresive government. Can we do it? Yes, but not if we roll over and play dead! (Just kidding, Carnivore and BATF!) GL! - and we NEED it!

-- Brad (, September 01, 2000.

The revolution will not be televised.

As for the liberal/conservative stuff, in my opinion it does more to polarize the populace and create enemies of potential friends who might come to some agreement through intelligent discussion if they could stop labeling each other. I don't mind helping people out, but I don't feel that essentially holding a gun to a taxpayers head and calling it a voluntary tax is right either. I feel social welfare should be localized as there is less bureaucracy involved then. Operative word is less.

Sheepish, I too am hogging up bandwidth, but as you probably never would have guessed, I am pretty passionate about freedom and some other things! The thing with Austalia as I understand it from news articles and one conversation with an aussie is that you couldn't find large pvc pipe for two months prior to registration! (Making criminals out of freedom lovers) That the crime rate in Australia went up by 44% in one year. Violence without guns as you mentioned, by bullies who had outgrown the playground and knew people could no longer defend themselves against sheer physical strength and/or numbers. Not a good thing for a women living alone in a rural area, or anywhere else for that matter, at all!

So, what are we going to do about the disintegration of our most basic rights? I am tired of writing my congressman, because he is one of maybe 10 in the whole mass that is good and true to the Constitution. God bless Ron Paul! The other 400 plus "reprhensitives" are sold out to what I would call socialism. How do our individual words add up in comparison with all of the lobbyists for special interests benefits and future caretaking promises? Evidently not too well. I don't personally know anyone that has written their congressman to beg them for more infringement on their Constitutional rights. But nonetheless, we continue to have them taken away piece by piece.

I'm sorry , but I am over it. It just stinks.

From a Christian standpoint I truly feel that all of my brothers and sisters who contend that we must just keep playing the game of this beast, I have to say that I see it as a very Hindu approach. "Yes, the child fell down the cliff and has broken legs and will die without help form us, but that's in his karma." I just see it as evidence that when good men do nothing evil prospers unchecked. I know it is fulfillment of last days prophecies and that God's Word tells us this all will happen, but I also see it as a convenient avoidance of responsibility to both the next generation and the mandate to stand up for what is right. You don't let evil run amock without confronting it!

Remember that 6 handguns in the Warsaw ghetto held the Nazi's at bay for 6 months! If the Jews had obeyed the laws they would not have had those handguns.

As I said before, WHEN do we stand up and "beat our scrawny little chests" and say NO MORE!!! How 'bout now?

-- Doreen (, September 01, 2000.

Doreen: Besides writing letters and making phonecalls, what CAN we do. Y'all arn't just fantasizing are you. This is scary. I am in agreement with so many of you and it is still scary. ada

-- Aagje Franken (, September 01, 2000.

Aagje, that's the perfect question!

If I were gifted with the ability to organize people, I would try to get together simultaneous marches in every county seat across the country with NO permits of any kind, where everyone who valued their 2nd ammendment right would walk down the main street with fully loaded weapons and banners declaring our intentions to not take anymore un Constitutional laws from our government ever. Let them call out the Guard, I suspect more than half of the members would be marching.

Yeah, they would arrest some and there is a chance that worse things might happen, BUT if there are enough of us, which I suspect there are, the only real thing that would happen is the message would have been sent with no chance of misinterpretation.

I could print the T-shirts!

-- Doreen (, September 01, 2000.

Well, I own American Staffordshire Terriers, cousin to the 'dreaded' Pit Bull. Already there are areas where these dogs are outlawed as weapons! Again, the trouble comes from the owners not the dogs (same as guns) but some extremists want to ban all of them. In this situation you would have to come past my (unregistered) gun to take any of my babies away. I moved out to the boonies to get away from this prejudice and keep as many as I like. Now I have ten (none of which roam or have ever bit anyone, but don't ask about the chickens) and every six to eight months I get a call from a friend at the sherrifs dept that someone is complaining about them again. Nothing ever comes of it as my dogs are very well cared for (I show them in AKC conformation classes) but as a responsible owner (like a responsible gun owner) I think I should be left alone! Lets not give the government any more power.

-- Dianne (, September 02, 2000.

well if it gets to the point of goverment dictatorship it will fall to the milatary how the tide turns ,in russia some troops deserted to the croud/mob protesting ,in china the milatary held together and slaughtered the protesters in tienamin square .We have both kinds of officers and enlisted in this country it just depends on who is where and when.history is writen by the winners ,during the civil war northern solders were hung by order of president Linkon for failure to follow orders ,confederate solders and officers were hung as traiters also by linkons orders and andersonville was more of a concentration death camp than a POW camp . the civl war was the final battle for individual and state rights it ended with the south a occupied conquered territory and set the federal power supreme.a few guns in the hands of the average citizen are of little consequence the military is a trained killing machine by definition,its just more difficult to use against a nations own people,than against an outside nation or groop.the Davidians thought they were well armed and see what happened to them ,they were made an example to any who would resist and no one is held responsable .They sett themselves apart as a seperate groop making it easy milatary officers have little in comon with the followers of a mesianic cult who defy th e federal goverment(ATf)not texas poice were in charge of this massacer.

-- george darby (, September 02, 2000.

Doreen: You say "I do believe that alot of these "killer kids" are seriously affected by what they see and the incredible violence in our media and recreation.Especially the young males, simply because men are more visual than women. It is exacerbated by the complete lack of individual responsibiluity for actions that we seem to keep fostering...not to belittle the conditions, but we have so many people on anti depressants and brain affecting chemicals that do things and then blame the drugs (which may very well be a causal factor, but who's making them take the drugs?) or like with drunk driving and the like, there is always AA to join to alleviate the probation time. It's us continually stopping people from truly facing the consequences of their actions that cause these problems"

I say agreed! Well said! See---the age of miracles is upon us.

-- john leake (, September 03, 2000.

John, Thank you. We have agreed on things in the past and I am sure there are things we will agree on in the future as well! There may be some things we will never agree on, but that would be another topic!

-- Doreen (, September 03, 2000.

i agree with doreen, when we label ourselves politically we seperate ourselves even further. i am niether a liberal or a conservative, i take each issue individually. i have agreed with views on both sides of the camp. sometimes i take the "middle of the road" even though somone suggested that is impossible. i believe we should all THINK about it and come up with our own decision. i work in education ever day. public education is not a complete loss because i and many other people are working very hard to teach children to be thinking,responsible people. many times when a child does make a mistake and is punished the parent is on the phone in two seconds and is whining about how mean we are and threatening to have us fired. then they go on tv and blame the educational system when their child ends up in jail!!! people don't want to take responsibility for the fact that they reproduced and now have someone looking to them for the answers. i know that is not true for many of you here but this topic makes me cranky! i got so angry that i forgot about the other thing i was gonna say. oh yeah, people always say that are society is fallin apart and i do think it needs a lot of improvement but there are many people (especially on this forum) that are trying every day to be the best person they can and that does make a difference.

-- Amber (, September 04, 2000.

About this demiliterizing privately owned stuff, is this just U.S. issue or does this apply to foreign made?

Does my neighbor have to give up his Russian MiG or do they just want my tank?

-- Laura (, September 05, 2000.

You may want to research this a little more. I contacted the offices of both our state senators regarding this bill. They both informed me that no Senate bill would start with SB, they use S for senate H for house. Also, is Congress in session now?

-- Jay Blair (, September 05, 2000.

Actually Jay, if you will re-read the original post and go to the US senate site as it says in the paragragh below, and do a search of the number it will come up even using SB(which stands for Senate bill). I know I just did it now. Your senators were trying to get out of trouble, by confusing the issue. Imagine that! Very recently it was change to S., and your senators knew that when you called. The number however is still the same. Sounds like to me someone is trying to avoid talking to you. I guess we don't get what we pay and pay and pay for.

Little bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (, September 05, 2000.

Just a note to respond to a comment Gail made (hoping I read it correctly -- it's VERY late!). Our forefathers put the right to keep and bear arms into the constitution on purpose so we would be able to protect ourselves against tyranny from our own government -- it wasn't done unintentionally. And it wasn't done to help people keep their hunting rifles, either, as many people seem to think. In addition to all the tyrannical governments in Europe, which our founding fathers were quite familiar with, our own country had been embroiled in some nasty wars for a good portion of the eighteenth century -- what we call the French and Indian Wars, but were really conflicts between England and France or the portions thereof that got played out on our soil. Some of the founding fathers actually fought in those wars, George Washington being one of them. Our little country hadn't seen much peace in the years prior to independence, and didn't see any prolonged period of peace on our soil until after the Civil War! Our ancestors needed their guns to defend their homes, and they knew they needed them -- now most people seem to have been brainwashed into believing there is something intrinsically evil about deadly weapons of any kind. Sure, it would be wonderful if the heart of man was such that weapons weren't needed, but that isn't going to happen for a long time, not until Jesus Christ returns to rule on the earth. We don't need guns for hunting -- it's a good deal easier to raise your own meat, in my opinion! -- we need them to defend ourselves against a wicked government. But we have already been disarmed to the point that we are vastly outgunned by the government. I think the only way to win that way would be if the majority of the armed forces joined the people -- and the way the press portrays the militias, and gun owners, I doubt that that will happen. Certainly the media does like to divide people, as has already been noted above, and I think that it is done for a purpose. It's easier to control isolated little fractions than a united whole (remember, "United we stand, divided we fall"?). In order to succeed at regaining our country, though, we would have to find enough common ground to base our unity on. I'm half asleep and my fingers are getting too cold to keep typing (what a quick change of weather!), but perhaps someone could start a new thread asking for points we could all agree on for the foundation of a new Republic? Might be more productive than always arguing about what we DON'T agree on. (Then again, it might just start a new arguement -- and then we would know that we don't have the solid foundation needed to fix things.)

-- Kathleen Sanderson (, September 05, 2000.

I woke up about 2 yrs ago. to the so called gun control. in Co I tried to buy a trap shotgun. was turned down by th CBI. told I was aressted in MD in 71. no further info. it took me 2 months to prove I was not. in the course of talking to the CBI I was told that I was guilty until I prove my inocense. wow was that a shock. even my brother was to agree to the liberal veiw of lic for guns and to control how many you can buy a year. when I argued " he said that if Gore were to follow up with what the NRA stated he would do . we could vote him out of office. (right"""). he still believes he won in florida

-- jim jilcott (, January 14, 2001.

your sites shit!

-- NAGEEB MOHAMED (NAG140@HOTMAIL.COM), February 08, 2001.

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