Agribusiness and the U.S. Government poisoning the people!

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Countryside : One Thread

Huge agribusiness companies and government officials are poisoning the population with sick food in the name of profits. They need wisdom, guidance, compassion.

Just a couple weeks ago several major newspapers ran a story about the USDA allowing diseased food animal carcasses to be processed and sent to market. They would just cutout the cancer, cutout the open sores, and butcher them anyway. One newspaper stated that hundred of birds examined in an industrial poultry house were contaminated with fecal and other contaminants. The leaders of these companies, and our government officials aren't even remembered in our prayers, yet what they do affects the long-term health, life and death of millions in the U.S.

So, I'm asking. If you believe in prayer, then pray for God to lay his hand on the hearts of these company CEO's, Boards of Directors, high government officials, and give them a heart that takes joy in service to others instead of joy in the love of money.

Farmer Bob

-- Robert Addison (FarmerbobMO@netscape.net), August 08, 2000

Answers

Bob, I'll be saying a prayer, but I'm afraid it's too late. It's not even just money their after now, it seems their going for control of the people also. Saw on CBS news a few days ago, they said that the European Union is now dictating a "standard" in the way food is made. All chocolate, ice cream whatever has a standard, uniform way to be made. Italy is throwing a fit. They take their food very seriously and don't want anyone telling them how to make it. They interviewed a man who has owned a very famous ice-cream shop for years. They use the very best ingredients and take alot of pride in what they sell. Now they are telling him he has to make his ice-cream like everyone else! Very scary if you really think of it. Heard tonight about the USDA dictating the size of holes in Swiss Cheese. Sound funny at first, but when you think of it, what's going to happen to the small cheese makers that don't have the equipment to comply? The USDA says they are just going along with the industry. In other words.. the giant food processors. Sorry for getting angry, as you have the biggest heart for requesting a prayer for these people, but all this and the consequences scare me.

-- Annie (mistletoe@earthlink.net), August 08, 2000.

AMEN Farmer Bob! My hats off to you and I will say the prayers!

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), August 09, 2000.

I reiterate my response to the Mad Cow Diease post - this is why I'm a vegetarian. Those of us who keep more than an average eye on this sorta stuff (to have handy rebuttal info on the tips of our corn-fed tongues) could have told you that this is essentially happening on an ongoing basis anyway. In many factories, not only do the carcasses whiz by the inspectors faster than a native dinner goes through a tourista, but if they stop the line too many times (and thus cut production) they are often pressured (not so subtly) to quit being so picky or face reprimand or firing. Just thought you carnivores would want to know.

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), August 09, 2000.

You mentioned the Italians. Well the Germans have had a law restricting what can be put in beer sold in that country. The law was established in 1600's I believe so all natural ingrediants. Anyways the European Union said it was a restriction of trade betweem member nations so now they have to allow cheap chemical crap like rest of world has.

European Union also controlls what varieties of various crops can be planted and sold commercially. You just dont plant a new variety until its been officially approved and you dont plant an older variety that has officially been dropped from the list. Bye, bye to saving your own seed if you are a farmer.

-- Hermit John (ozarkhermit@pleasedontspamme.com), August 09, 2000.


I'm with Soni. Another thing that has been documented in these processing plants is that the workers are limited to a certain number of bathroom breaks, and apparently they don't occur frequently enough. I saw poultry plant workers interviewed on one of the news shows recently, and they said that there were FREQUENT instances of workers simply peeing themselves where they stood, because they were not allowed to leave the line to use the restroom. Also, over the years I have read several articles/interviews in which meat- inspectors admitted that THEY DO NOT EAT meat, chicken in particular, because they know first hand what kind of disgusting filth those poor dead birds have been subjected to, and that the carcasses are contaminated with everything from feces to pus. And I won't even go into the cruelty-to-animals issues that are a huge part of this industry. (I'm referring specifically to factory farms, nobody needs to write me saying they are kind to their chickens before they butcher them. I know you are. I'm talking about FACTORIES). Vegetarianism: an idea whose time has come!

-- Shannon (Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary) (gratacres@aol.com), August 09, 2000.


I won't argue the benefits of vegetarianism except to say be careful fo that "fresh produce" you buy and eat in January. A better idea,IMHO, is local consumerism where you can see how your meat was raised and control in what manner it was butchered and processed. We had this year's first batch of chickens done a couple of weeks ago and fully trust the local processor who did it. He even rejected one of our birds himself, with no help from a government inspector who is actually paid by the big processor he is supposed to oversee. Fox guarding the henhouse, maybe? Buy locally, support good husbandry and food handling methods and keep a wholesome supply of food available. If more did, more would be available.

-- ray (mmoetc@yahoo.com), August 09, 2000.

Hi Annie,

Man, that European Union thing is scary. Sounds just like something the Prince of the Power of the Air (Satan) would do. Y'know that God has given him reign over the earth for a time, until the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So the devil is out there and actively working to create misery. We must fight him with the available tools. Write your government officials, get your neighbors to write, stop this government standardizing that forces businesses to lower their higher standards to that of the giants of industry. We all know that mass produced is inferior quality. By just going along with the industry, the gov't is actually just going on with the giant companies who want to protect their profits from their competitors.

Why should the people allow the government to act to protect a private company (industry giant) from a smaller competitor who can produce a superior quality product? That's nonsensical. It's supposed to be a free market.

Please pray for this situation. Please pray for God's will to be done in this. His will is not to be greedy, and to serve others (the people).

-- Robert A (FarmerbobMO@netscape.net), August 09, 2000.


Dear Soni,

If you look around, you can find alternative farmers like Joel Salatin in Virginia, who raise beef, chickens and eggs, and rabbits on pasture in a humane way, WITH NO ANTIBIOTICS OR HORMONES, just with the natural environment and seaweed mineral supplements.

Joel's meat is superior in quality and taste, plus packed with nutrition put there by God, not by chemical agriculture.

If you found a pastured poultry farmer near you, or someone with grass-fed beef and no additives, you'd be quite surprised that you need not be a vegetarian for the reasons you mentioned.

It is the consumers who dictate the market. If we continue to vote with our food dollars and buy the supermarket junk, then we support that system.

We must vote with our food dollars and buy meat directly from the small producer, processed by the small companies that are family owned and operated. The small operator can do it right, but the industry giants by nature can only do it wrong and stay in business.

-- Robert A. (FarmerbobMO@netscape.net), August 09, 2000.


To Hermit John

Oh man! I didn't know that about Germany and the beer. This is definitely gov't getting too big for itself.

We really need to pray for those leaders in the European Union. The nature of man is sin, so we need to pray for revival. For God to move His Spirit over them for salvation and leading them into serving their constituents, not the interests of the huge companies that can use bribes and kickbacks (money controls) to get what they want and to hell with the rest of us.

-- Robert A. (FarmerbobMO@netscape.net), August 09, 2000.


To Shannon

Forget the vegetarianism. Get together a group of like-minded folks and find a local farmer.

Introduce that farmer to pastured poultry. Tell him that if he raises pastured poultry and processes on-farm (his biggest profit comes from on-farm processing and direct sales) or with a small local process, you will all preorder your meat from him.

Folks, it's for us (the consumers) to act for clean agriculture. Let's stop complaining and get active. Let's vote with our food dollars.

And don't just eat at restaurants. They get their chicken from Tyson and Purdue direct or from the supermarkets just like all us meat eating complainers.

-- Robert Addison (FarmerbobMo@netscape.net), August 09, 2000.



To RAY

What is IMHO and how does it work? I haven't heard this term before.

Please explain.

-- Robert Addison (FarmerbobMO@netscape.net), August 09, 2000.


Robert, IMHO means "In my humble opinion".

To the vegetarians in the group, if you are eating vegetarian for ideological reasons, I'm not going to argue with you -- I don't agree, but we are all entitled to choose what we believe. But if you are doing it for health reasons, you should do some more research. Yes, it would be best to buy your meat from a trustworthy source, or grow it yourselves if possible. But it is very difficult to stay healthy on a totally vegetable diet. Most vegetarians are not getting enough protein, and almost all of them are deficient in certain minerals. Also, their diets are usually way too high in carbohydrates. All carbohydrates, when digested, turn into sugar, even those from a baked potato or whole wheat bread. Most people eat the equivalent of at least two cups of pure sugar per day. This raises the insulin levels in the body to a point where they are way out of balance. The first obvious effect of this is obesity, as the high insulin, through processes too complicated to attempt to explain here, stores all the excess sugar as fat (it is the sugar that makes you fat, not dietary fat). There are other health problems going on, too, but obesity is the first outwardly visible one. Inside, where you can't see it, you are setting yourself up for clogged arteries, high blood pressure, and diabetes. Diabetes has increased to epidemic proportions since the government started promoting the currently politically corect nutritional standards (i.e. the food pyramid with all starchy foods on the bottom level). For all kinds of valid research information, do a search for a site called Adiposity 101. Then do a search for the low-carb and the paleo-diet sites. A lot of doctors are starting to recommend these diets now, after seeing patients who have not only lost weight, but also improved their cholesterol, brought down their blood pressure, and controlled their diabetes by using them. The "establishment" is still calling them fad diets, I think because of their ideological commitment to vegetarianism. But there is no health reason to become a vegetarian, and there is no health reason, other than pre-existing kidney disease, to stay away from the low-carb diet plans. If anyone wants to read a book on the subject that does a very good job of explaining, with documentation, the science behind all this, look at your local book store for Protein Power, by Dr.s Michael and Mary Dan Eades. Everything in the book is straight out of the standard texts, it's not speculation. It just never got all put together in a wholistic way before.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), August 09, 2000.


Robert, IMHO, (in my humble opinion) there is nothing anyone, anywhere, can ever say to change my mind about eating meat. Usually, if the subject of vegetarianism comes up in conversation with folks that I don't know well, I will initially point out the health benefits, perhaps mentioning weightloss as a bonus. Secondly, the subject of unsanitary processing. Shannon mentioned the issues of inhumane factory farming. For me, that is more important than the first two items. Bottom line for me is this - I feel that our Creator gave us so many other things to eat, why take a life? Why? Because it "tastes" good? Not a good enough reason. I believe the original plan was for humans to care for the animals - all of them. A hamburger stops a beating heart.

-- Cathy Horn (hrnofplnty@webtv.net), August 09, 2000.

Kathleen, you sound just like that fellow pitching the colloidal minerals. I think there is some truth in the mineral defficiency, but the recommendation for high meat consumption is rather questionable. If vegetables and grains are low in minerals, then how is there enough minerals in animal flesh since they just eat these same plant materials.

Second, humans are omnivores and can eat a variety of stuff. We adapt to our environment. I imagine our early ancestors were happy to just get enough calories from whatever source and finding a rotting carcus or a handful of grubs from under a rock was pure luck. Fruit, nuts ecetera was a real feast. However we do have a rather long gut which in other animals is meant to digest mainly plant food. The long gut allows plant food needs to remain in the gut longer so maximum nutrition can be extracted. Meat goes bad too quick and will putrefy before it makes it through a long gut. Cats which are true carnivores have a very short gut to enable them to get what they need from a nutrient rich meat source and then get rid of the waste quickly so as to not allow putrefication.

As to the starches, this instant turning into sugar is for the refined starches like white flour products that have little fiber that buffers the process. ie: White flour/ sugar will cause a humans blood sugar level to spike shortly after ingestion. Real natural whole grains wont do this. Nature doesnt provide worthless refined starches, this was mans idea. The king eats delicate white flour products, so it must be good. He ate lot of meat and sweets and in great quantity. The king also got gout which the mostly whole grain/vegetable eating peasant didnt.

The mineral fellow also promotes a high protein diet to loose weight. It puts ones body into a state of ketosis. Am I wrong or is this a condition usually only seen in sick humans and definitely something to be avoided in livestock. In this state the body is literally eating itself.

The old saying about everything in moderation should still apply as far as I'm concerned. If one gives up anything it should be highly refined, sugared and processed foods. If you eat meat, then raise your own or buy from somebody local who raises clean free range animals. And again, everything in moderation.

-- Hermit John (ozarkhermit@pleasedontspamme.com), August 09, 2000.


In response to Kathleen's comments on vegetarians... I speak from the perspective of a person who has about two dozen vegetarian friends. I have been a part of the animal rights movement for almost fifteen years, and of course all of those folks are vegetarian (vegan, actually), too. My point is, I probably know more vegetarians than the average person, and I can say unequivocally that I have never known a single one who suffered health problems due to any sort of nutritional deficiency. Several of the health concerns mentioned in the posts above are really just common misconceptions about the vegetarian diet. Truth is, most people who choose to follow the vegetarian path are fairly bright. They are environmentally aware, in tune with the needs of their bodies, and they enjoy good food and health. The diet is not about deprivation. I have found that if someone is conscious & aware enough to want to become a vegetarian, they are usually pretty capable of keeping themselves (and their children) healthy.

-- Shannon (Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary) (gratacres@aol.com), August 09, 2000.


I became a vegetarian a year ago last February primarily to lose weight because I am fifty pounds overweight. After seven months I had lost 0 pounds. Not ONE pound. What I didn't realize was that I was eating too much carbohydrates like potatoes, rice, macaroni and and too much fruit which is high in sugars therefore I was not eating any healthier than I was before. Just being vegetarian is not necessarily being healthy. You have to eat the right fruits and vegetables. I'm still trying to find what is the best eating program for me but am not having much luck. It is either too strict and I can't stay on it or I don't lose weight. Frustrating. But, I'm going to keep trying because I am 46 and want to be in a healthier state before I turn 50 or maybe I won't turn 50.

-- Colleen (pyramdigreatdanes@erols.com), August 09, 2000.

Hermit john- Not to be contrarian, but the human gut is nowhere near long enough or designed in the ruminant way so as to be efficient in a strict vegetarian manner. We are much more akin to bears, raccoons and other omnivores which derive much of their nutrition from vegetation, but utilize meat when it is available to them. Vegetarianism as a philosophical decision is one I will not debate. To each their own. As a dietary health debate, a well rounded diet including moderate amounts of animal protein is more in line with what the human body was designed for or evolved into ( depending on your belief system). More important than the mix is ensuring that the food we eat is not contaminated with the pesticides and hormones and medications rampantly used in "modern" production agriculture. Once again, buy locally grown and processed foodstuffs from reputable people and more will become available.

-- ray (mmoetc@yahoo.com), August 09, 2000.

Farmer Bob,did you know that even if they cut out the diseased areas of carcasses the diseased area may be incorporated into mixed meats such as hot dogs or luncheon meats and labeled as parts?!The Nutrition Institute of America reports that the flesh of an animal carcass is loaded with toxic blood and waste byproducts.Not to contradict you Ray,but the human body has characteristics like those of the fruit eaters.It is quite similar to plant and grass eaters and very differint from carnivores.The digestive system,the tooth and jaw structure and the bodily functions are completely different from carnivores.These physical attributes are more suited to a diet of fruits,nuts,grains and vegetables.The human digestive system is 12x the length of our body as in non-carnivorous animals.As for the health issue,there is no reason to eat meat for "proteins".Soybeans and milk also have complete proteins(containing all 8 amino acids).Combining rice and legumes together also make complete proteins.The only real reason to eat meat is just because you like to.

-- nobrabbit (conlane@prodigy.net), August 09, 2000.

To nobrabbit and vegetarians.

I'm sorry to disagree with you. I feel that many people cannot find the time to learn how to plan a balanced nutrition diet that is meatless, and many of us (I for one) were not brought up to learn to cook.

I believe that anyone can learn to cook, but not everyone can learn to cook efficiently enough to make it practical. I've been instructed by a nutritionist that meat provides the same nutrients that you can get in plants, but a higher concentration at one time and you can get what you need out of it with less volume consumed.

I don't have the time, myself, to consumes the larger portions of vegan foods only in order to get the nutrients in the same number of hours that I can get by combining plants and meats.

If God didn't mean for us to eat meats, then why did he give such specific attention to instruction the Hebrews in the Old Testament which animals were clean and which unclean, how he wanted them killed, etc. in the book of Leviticus?

Another thing. Much of this supermarket produce has problems with it just like the meats. Raised by industrial methods with chemical fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides. The food is raised and picked not for nutritional and taste, but for how well it fares during transportation (long-distance trucking).

They've actually tested oranges in different stores and found oranges on the supermarket shelf with zero vitamin C in them.

I'm curious as to how many of these vegetarians and vegans take vitamin and mineral supplements. We all should. Vegetarianism doesn't automatically make you healthier.

-- Robert Addison (FarmerbobMO@netscape.net), August 09, 2000.


To nobrabbit and vegetarians.

I'm sorry to disagree with you. I feel that many people cannot find the time to learn how to plan a balanced nutrition diet that is meatless, and many of us (I for one) were not brought up to learn to cook.

I believe that anyone can learn to cook, but not everyone can learn to cook efficiently enough to make it practical. I've been instructed by a nutritionist that meat provides the same nutrients that you can get in plants, but a higher concentration at one time and you can get what you need out of it with less volume consumed.

I don't have the time, myself, to consumes the larger portions of vegan foods only in order to get the nutrients in the same number of hours that I can get by combining plants and meats.

If God didn't mean for us to eat meats, then why did he give such specific attention to instruction the Hebrews in the Old Testament which animals were clean and which unclean, how he wanted them killed, etc. in the book of Leviticus?

Another thing. Much of this supermarket produce has problems with it just like the meats. Raised by industrial methods with chemical fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides. The food is raised and picked not for nutritional and taste, but for how well it fares during transportation (long-distance trucking).

They've actually tested oranges in different stores and found oranges on the supermarket shelf with zero vitamin C in them.

I'm curious as to how many of these vegetarians and vegans take vitamin and mineral supplements. We all should. Vegetarianism doesn't automatically make you healthier.

Absolutely, buy food locally. Direct from the small farmer/market gardener who doesn't use chemical agricutlture is healthiest and best-tasting. Know how it's raised. Go there, see the operation. Connect with the person. This is how quality is maintained. Not by buying from a chain store who got the food from a giant producer using an assembly line. Assembly lines are good for cars. NOT FOOD!

-- Robert Addison (FarmerbobMO@netscape.net), August 09, 2000.


Visit www.all-creatures.org, for Christian/biblical arguments FOR vegetarianism. This is a very Christian, very pro-animal site, with lots of good stuff beyond the veggie issue. I hope the site shows up when this posts...I always have trouble with the address not showing up on the actual forum.

-- Shannon (Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary) (gratacres@aol.com), August 09, 2000.

Robert-I didn't really see anything that you disagreed with me on!I myself am not a vegetarian.We raise pigs and chickens organically along with organic gardening.I do know the dangers of eating meat even organically raised meat.The thing is,you can't live a toxic free life in todays world.The best thing to do is educate yourself on what you eat,drink,breathe,wear,use and come in contact with.Then you can decide what you can deal with and what you can't.Just because it's organic doesn't mean it hasn't come in contact with residual toxins from non-organic neighbors.All you can do is what you think is healthiest for yourself and hope for the best!

-- nobrabbit (conlane@prodigy.net), August 09, 2000.

Nobrabbit- If you'll read my post you'll see that I never mentioned carnivores. I said we are more akin to the omnivores in the wild. the structure of bouth our digestive system and our dental makeup are a compromise. Maybe not the best of both worlds but some of both worlds. Well developed incisors are for cutting meat, not grinding grain. Molars are for grinding grain, not cutting meat. Our intestinal system does a less than great job of processing many vegetable protein sources. Ever eat raw soybeans? Man learned to process grains to make them more palatable and, more importantly, more digestible. I see very few cows boiling rice before they eat it. My point was, and still is, that a well balanced diet of wholesome foods is better for us than any extreme either way. More importantly, buy locally and support small holders and small processors. Whatever your dietary bent, develop relationships with those that provide you the food and you will be better for it.

-- ray (mmoetc@yahoo.com), August 09, 2000.

Ray: I believe I stated we are omnivores. We dont have the gut of a horse or other grazing herbavore, but much longer one than any carnivore. As you say we are a compromise, but I suspect our ancestory is more to herbavore side. Our teeth are more for grinding plant foods than tearing flesh. Other omnivores such as bears and dogs are more set up in teeth department to eat meat. As I reinterate, moderation in all things. I was just critisizing the all meat all the time diets with total elimination of natural high fiber carbohydrate plant materials. I suggest elimination of sugar and highly refined products, these are truly devestating to any animal, humans included. I figure those that eat an all meat diet must be very constipated or else very dependent on powerfull laxitives.

I can not see anybody who has tasted good varieties of vegetables and fruits grown locally and picked at proper time ever buying that crap at the grocrery store. Trouble is most people anymore have never tasted the real stuff. And I have seen lot roadside stands in my area that sell commercial wholesale produce instead of what one would assume they grew themselves. Most are even too lazy to take it out of the wholesaler's boxes. Took long time to get my ex to even taste a real homegrown tomato as she had grown up being served the pink tennisballs. Once she tried them, she loved them.

-- Hermit John (ozarkhermit@pleasedontspamme.com), August 10, 2000.


I see some of the media-induced misconceptions about the low- carbohydrate diets popping up here, so will take the time to explain in a little more depth. First of all, they are not excessively high in protein, they are adequate protein. The government RDA is a little on the low side for most people, so the recommendations of the Dr.s Eades, for example, may seem a little higher in comparison, but they are not a lot higher (again, for most people). Second, we probably eat more vegetables on this diet than we ever did -- and I like veggies, and eat a lot of them. In no way does a low-carb diet prohibit or limit the amount of vegetables you eat, with two exceptions -- limited amounts of the starchier ones, and I believe the very low carb level required by Dr. Atkins for the first couple of weeks of his diet are limiting of veggies. (Dr. Atkins has been around quite a while, and everyone seems to think of his diet when they hear low-carb diet.) Vegetables are necessary for fiber, vitamins, and minerals. Carbohydrate foods, i.e. grains, legumes, and potatoes, well, they may have some vitamins and minerals, but it is possible to live without them. If a person is developing insulin resistance, or hyperinsulinism (look at where you are depositing fat - - if it is on the tummy or around the middle, I'm talking to you) -- they need to initially reduce their carbohydrate intake (sugar intake -- yes, the fiber doesn't count, and we don't count it when counting carbs) quite drastically. When the weight is lost, or the health problem is cleared up, then the carbs can be gradually increased, sticking with unprocessed foods, preferably. But they should never go back to what the person was eating before, because the underlying problem, of hyperinsulinism, is permanent. (Just like diabetes, which it leads to.) The ketosis thing is another one of those myths being spread around by the media -- the harmful ketosis is the one experienced by diabetics. It's not what is referred to by the doctors who developed these diets -- it's a process of burning fat, whether dietary or body fat -- and does no harm at all. However, it is not necessary to be "in ketosis" to lose the weight or experience the health benefits, just to cut back on the carbs (drastically, for a while). Obviously humans are omnivores -- even most of the large primates are omnivores, though their animal protein consumption is usually a lower percentage of their diets than ours is. (This tidbit is for those of you who think we are related to the primates! LOL!!) Paleonotogists have a consensus that those of our ancestors who lived non-farming lives (hunter-gatheres, and, undoubtedly, also the nomadic herdsmen) were much healthier, taller, stronger bones, much less tooth decay, little or no heart disease, etc. While the people who lived by farming and raising grains suffered from obesity, diabetes, heart disease, osteoporosis, massive tooth decay, etc. Now, you can't assume that this was because the hunter-gatherers worked harder than the farmers, because the reverse is actually true. The hunter-gatherers undoubtedly ate small amounts of seeds and grains, but not the constant, daily, large amounts consumed by their farmer cousins. Even high-carb fruits were only readily available in late summer and early fall (what does a bear eat to put on weight for the winter? Also, what do we feed to cattle and sheep to fatten them for butcher?). I was just reading a paper on the topic of why, when obviously high grain consumption led to all these health problems AND was a lot more work than herding or hunter gathering, why did the people convert to farming. The author's conclusion, based on current research, was that there are substances like opiods in grains (you know, with an effect like that of opium) and that though these substances occurred in smaller amounts in grains, there were enough of them to produce a pleasing effect, and keep people wanting more of them. This is not a problem if a person has no health problems, but you should see the list of auto-immune diseases that are now being linked to grain and dairy consumption. This is on top of the current diabetes epidemic. This has gotten too long -- if anyone is really interested in wanting to know more I strongly suggest they look up the web sites I mentioned in my earlier post, as I really can't explain all this as well as the people who did the research! But a note for you vegetarians -- yes, I know that a person CAN be healthy on a vegetarian diet, if they are VERY careful. But I have known a number of vegetarians over the years, and only one of them looked healthy. (And I don't think she had been eating that way very long.) So, while you may be taking the extra pains to make sure you and your family are healthy, not all vegetarians do. And how many vegetarians do you know who have diabetes, or high blood pressure, or bad cholesterol levels? And, no, I haven't gotten this information from some quack doctor -- all the biochemistry and the research to support all this is in standard medical texts -- I know biochemists and medical students who have verified the accuracy of all this information. If you want, I can put you in touch with them. I was debating with myself whether this conversation really had a place on this board, but homesteading is to a large extent about growing what we eat, so I guess it is a pertinent conversation!

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), August 10, 2000.

Hermit John- Seems we agree more than we disagree, just took a while to get there. I feel the same way you do about commercial veggie peddlers. Around here( south central wisconsin) most community farmer's markets limit items sold to those grown locally. No way to really prove it, but we vendors tend to police things pretty well. Consumer eduacation is the key. Whether it's at market, among co-workers, friends, relatives or innocent bystanders, don't be afraid to tout the goodness and benefits of locally produced farmgoods. Word of mouth is your best advertising. Get that pasture raised chicken on somebody's plate and I guarantee they'll tell a friend who'll want one. Same with anything you raise. Homesteading is not a get rich quick thing. Provide good food at reasonable prices( but make some money for yourself) and slowly but surely your customer base will increase. Don't cut corners and don't be afraid to give away a tomato or a chicken now and then. Share your passion with your customers. it will pay off.

-- ray (mmoetc@yahoo.com), August 10, 2000.

To ray and Hermit John.

Hey! If you guys or anybody out there is selling locally raised pastured poultry and pastured eggs, try this marketing tip I picked up on from Joel Salatin's books.

Prepare a slide show on your pastured poultry and humane, environmentally healthy animal husbandry. Present this slide show to garden clubs, flower clubs, rotary clubs, Kiwanis, whoever and wherever you can in order to educate the people about alternatives to concentration camp chicken/eggs.

The folks at these clubs are tired of the same old spearkers. They want someting new and exciting, like responsible small farm agriculture.

And like ray said, take a sample of your pastured poultry and supermarket chicken and cook 'em up side by side in separate tabletop broilers. Demonstrate the difference to folks. Explain how they can support a farmer instead of the megacorporations getting rich from selling us concentration camp meat and eggs.

If somebody got the word out locally, I'd sure buy those eggs and that pastured chicken for my table, even if it did cost a little more.

You get what you pay for. Assembly line food is cheap, and it is barely edible. Lacks nutrition and possesses too many contaminants.

-- Country Bob (FarmerbobMO@netscape.net), August 10, 2000.


This whole thing about vegetarians not looking healthy irks me a bit. How many people doing the daily drive thru at Macky Dee's look healthy? Every person is an individual and what works best dietetically for one won't work for others. Some people should eat meat and others should not. The main problem is agribusiness and excessive chemicals in our food that confuse body signals and people fail to be able to tell what their bodies actually need as opposed to what their tastebuds want. We are a fat society because we are being gradually poisoned and people know they need more nutrition but they aren't able to get it from their food just the calories stay around. For a long time, too.

There is a growth hormone that stops being produced by our bodies in the mid twenties. If we continue to eat at the same rate as previously it translates into 5-10 pounds per year. We are also increasingly sedentary and that aggravates the weight gain. Whether we eat meat or not, it's the calories and our individual metabolism that is causing the weight to stay on.

This poisoning that is ocurring is happening on many levels. Flouride in our water and tooth paste, hardens bones as well as teeth causes many to have very brittle bones early in life, also brings about a very apathetic emotional state in folks. Heavy metals in our teeth so that we can develop MS and allergies. Putting soy in everything that is bought ready made, causes asthma in a small percentage of the population. Hydrogentated vegetable oil spreads for our "enriched" bread that causes choleserol levels to sky rocket and arteries to clog even more than true dairy products, but hey, the margarine lobby sold everyone on a lie that it was BETTER for you so, Parkay it is.

Robert, (I think) before the flood we were all vegetarians. After the flood God instilled fear of us in animals and let us eat them and gave us the proper methods for doing so in a healthful fashion. He never said that we HAD to eat meat.

Bottom line is that it wouldn't hurt most of us one bit to fast for a few days every month and give our bodies a chance to cleanse themselves a little. Probably wouldn't hurt our moral fiber at all either. Perhaps we would be more thankful for the food we did consume.....Perhaps. The more I learn about all of this food industry business, the less I want to eat anything that I haven't personally raised from the outset. I wish my fruit trees would hurry up and grow!

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), August 10, 2000.


Kathleen: Diabetes is nearly unheard of in areas that eat a local natural diet without processed products. They also have much better teeth than modern Americans/Europeans. Most peasants throughout history ate little meat since forming permenant villages/cities/etc. They could not afford it. Only some sparsely populated hunting/gathering nomadic cultures eat significant meat diets. Otherwise just royalty and rich ate high meat diet until modern wealthy America and Europe culture we know arose.

By the way immortal soul or not, we share 99% of our DNA with chimpanzees which although omnivores, definitely live mostly on plant based diet as you say.

I tend to agree with Dr. McDougall who's position on protein needs of humans goes like this: You get plenty of complete protein if you eat enough natural plant foods to get enough calories. More protein than that just puts a burden on your liver and kidneys as you process then excrete the surplus in your urine. When he states this it would be very difficult to get enough calories without some starches whether from tubers, roots, grains, or nuts. By this he doesnt mean you should gourge yourself nor does he mean we should consume refined starches like Kraft Macoroni and cheese. He had great luck in Hawaii putting obese Hawaiians back on a traditional high starch natural plant diet their ancestors ate before Europeans arrived. I know I eat little meat, dairy, or eggs and feel much better than when I occasionally eat significant amounts of these heavy foods(usually only when I eat at somebody elses house as a guest).

Guess I'd say everyone should eat the way that makes him/her feel best. Know lot animal based food just makes me feel bloated, lethargic, and constipated. Cant be good for me.

By the way if you want to read Dr. McDougalls position on high protein diets go to: http://www.drmcdougall.com/debate.html

-- Hermit John (ozarkhermit@pleasedontspamme.com), August 10, 2000.


Seems to me I have the final say so in what I eat. Find a local source of meat you trust. Do buy out of state meat. Yes you may pay more but what is more important?

-- Gary (gws@redbird.net), August 15, 2000.

Moderation questions? read the FAQ