It use to be so easy, so basic. When did these things stop being normal?

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), August 07, 2000

Answers

The only thing easy about that list is reading it! Execution of these ideals is hard work, IMO. To swim against the tide of society is laborious and often lonely, yet conscience dictates I forge ahead against the grain.

It use to be so easy, so basic. When did these things stop being normal?

Never, in my experience was the pursuit of these ideals at the forefront in our society. The concept of "the good old days" is a creation of selective memory, IMO. If your experiences are different, good for you.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), August 07, 2000.

I don't remember them being ideals that were prevalent, either. But I do remember people at least being somewhat courteous to each other; simple "excuse me" and "thank you" just don't really exist any longer.

After the weekend I had, I could sure use this list. Thanks Cherri!!

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), August 07, 2000.

Call me Mr Cynic but I'm certain these things were never normal except for a few people at a few times. Having said that, I see a general loss of civility during my lifetime. When I was a kid, even in NJ, we rarely locked our doors.

Some of these things run in trends. In the 60s when the hip critique was to mock "uptightness", I can remember a column in an undergound newspaper lamenting that the custom of apologizing for accidentally bumping into someone was a sign of uptightness.

But PEACE? Ever hear of Viet Nam, Korea, WWII, WWI, Civil War, Napoleonic Wars ...........? War is the norm for God's sake. BTW God, I've been meaning to talk to you about that.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), August 07, 2000.

Cherri, that list should include the most important thing of all: Compliance

-- Ra (tion@l.1), August 07, 2000.

While these ten things are without a doubt very wonderful things, they cannot and will not solve all of life's complex problems, even if we could incorporate all of them into our daily lives.

Here's a short list of problems these wonderful things won't solve: disease, death, pain, hunger and ignorance.

But, those ten things would go a long way toward solving: despair, loneliness, boorishness and most categories of crime.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), August 07, 2000.

Cherri:

Your list (a good one) reminded me of that wonderful book "All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten:"

"Share. Put things back where you got them. Always say please. Always say thank you."

-- (r@nd.h), August 07, 2000.

Cherri:

I don't think "these things" stopped being normal.

I live in a average middle-class town. People say hello when walking, even if they don't know you. When people need help, there's always someone to help.

And the kids are nice - and polite - and very noisy like kids are.

I think most places are like this.

I lived on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, just off Fifth Avenue. (That's when I had money.) The people there were also nice.

GBA

-- (r@nd.h), August 07, 2000.

"Some of these things run in trends. In the 60s when the hip critique was to mock "uptightness", I can remember a column in an undergound newspaper lamenting that the custom of apologizing for accidentally bumping into someone was a sign of uptightness."

In other words, it's a sign of civility.

That's still going on, but today the movement has other names; Punk, Skaters etc. Notice that those movements, as in the sixties, aren't started by middle age, matured people.

Kids rebel against civility naturaly. Until they finally understand its purpose.

-- (pondering@home..), August 07, 2000.

Pondering--

You make a good point. Too many of our cultural norms are now started by the kids and then picked up and emulated by adults. It should be the other way around. For some reason, adults have abdicated much of their responsibility for "setting a tone" that defines a civilized, society that emphasizes comity. Why?

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), August 07, 2000.

>> For some reason, adults have abdicated much of their responsibility for "setting a tone" that defines a civilized, society that emphasizes comity. Why? <<

If you take a good look around at the adults you meet on an average day, you'll probably conclude that most of them are acting like adults and doing as good a job as ever at "setting a tone" in the only way open to most of them: by setting an example.

If you take a good look at how adults are portrayed on the average prime time television show you will conclude that most adults are either idiots, cops, or despicable criminals. Occasionally you'll see a despicable cop or an idiot criminal.

I always say that television is an unbeatable teacher, except most of what it teaches is not true.

-- Brian McLaughlin (brianm@ims.com), August 07, 2000.

For some reason, adults have abdicated much of their responsibility for "setting a tone" that defines a civilized, society that emphasizes comity. Why?

Many couples I know are overwhelmed by the duties demanded of them in their day-to-day existence. This information age can leave little time for couples who reproduce for contemplation, for assessment of what they are doing and where they are going.

How many on this forum who are parents take time out for retreat of some sort? A weekend alone at a mountain cabin? A couple days at the beach without the rug rats? A weekend with the spouse in a hotel three hours drive from home? Where's the down time most sane persons require to recharge batteries? People need to take time out to cultivate and nurture their own souls, talents, drives.

No free passes from me. I don't excuse people for irresponsibility based on the above. Just looking to provide a possible reason, Lars.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), August 07, 2000.

I always say that television is an unbeatable teacher, except most of what it teaches is not true.

Good point Brian. Most people forget that television is for entertainment purposes ONLY, not for teaching. (Damn that Sesame Street!) :-)

The only rule you really need is the golden one: Treat others as you would like to be treated yourself. Period.

M

-- Not now, not like this (AgentSmith0110@aol.com), August 07, 2000.

Having a child was the very thing that did recharge my batteries. The job, or "calling" such as it was, represented both a spiritual retreat for me and a vortex of energy. Even in its challenges, it was solitude and renewal, marching band, cloister and Presidential campaign rolled into one.

The cacophony of life, this culture now, and its roots in television and modern marketing, the collectivism of day care and the wants and needs for two working halves of a couple to live at a certain level have transformed the ways we value each other.

Look at television, and remember which groups are marketing targets. That is what drives presentation and energy on TV. Consider marketing projections for the future. Then try to understand why certain generations define our values now, which contain more clout, more exposure, and more strength to set their own moral values or lack of such. It is value by default, by marketing dollar. The oldest generations with the longest access to our cultural archives are not legitimate targets of interest or attention in the media that drive us all.

Again, an excellent book, "Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television" by Jerry Mander. Perhaps on Amazon.com. A golden oldie. Not necessarily a directive, but a road map to understanding how we got to where we are.

-- Oxy (Oxsys@aol.com), August 07, 2000.

We can do something about what is put on TV. We can write the sponsers and tell them we do not like what is on the shows and tell them that we will not buy their products if they support the show. We can also let those responsible for the show know the same things.

I've done it and had some replies that were not "canned". If enough people write the same thing, they said they would change.

The punk groups are yelling because their music is getting downloaded from the internet for free, yet they are the ones who advocate that sort of behavior. What goes around comes around.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), August 07, 2000.