Or, to put it another way...

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TB2K spinoff uncensored : One Thread

"There is no guide to truth

Is God to be found by seeking him out? Can you search after the unknowable? To find, you must know what you are seeking. If you seek to find, what you find will be a self-projection; it will be what you desire, and the creation of desire is not truth. To seek truth is to deny it. Truth has no fixed abode; there is no path, no guide to it, and the word is not truth. Is truth to be found in a particular setting, in a special climate, among certain people? Is it here and not there? Is that one the guide to truth, and not another? Is there a guide at all? When truth is sought, what is found can only come out of ignorance, for the search itself is born of ignorance. You cannot search out reality; you must cease for reality to be."


It appears that my metaphysics have some people upset. Good. That is what good metaphysical discussion should do. Slings and barbs will not change what is true, and the above words from one of the more brilliant folks I have read ring true for me. When I first started reading him ten years ago he infuriated me; today I have gone beyond my initial limitations and have been able to embrace his thoughts-though at times he still infuriates me. The last thing I will say on this matter is, if anyone's words on metaphysics infuriate me, then this especially I should look at-whatever it is being said has touched me in a way that begs to be noticed-the truth can truly hurt.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), August 04, 2000


I avoid Krishnamurti like the plague. Fifteen years ago I came across a book of his lectures and upon reading through just the first few pages became enraged. Reading his words this morning still evokes this emotion.

I see where he is coming from more now than I did fifteen years ago. Because I am a Bhakti Yogi (path of devotion) Krishnamurti's Jnana Yoga (path of wisdom) leaves me feeling cold and dry. This does not negate the truth behind his wisdom. It simply reveals that there are many, many paths which may lead us ultimately to the same goal.

Yes, there are guideposts which we can follow on our journeys towards truth. It is in the letting go of the techniques and personas we have gathered to us that we realize our oneness - samadhi, nirvana, insert your favorite term here. When we reach the doorstep we must toss off all accoutrements and enter as we really are.

FS, I began the morning knowing I'd be far too busy today to monitor this forum, yet you have drawn me out once again. Thank You.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), August 04, 2000.

I embraced Krishnamurti 20 years ago, but did not return to him.

To find truth, you must search and not search.

Truth is like a piece of beach glass, washed ashore. You can look for it, find it, mistake it, laugh at its perceived junkiness, even as you finger it and find comfort in its well-worn, costly smoothness. Only to surrender eventually to its essence, to find its priceless treasure and reality in the delight that embraces from a child's eyes. Truth is not rare, only hidden.

To approach truth you must be crusty and old and hard and tough, and you must be innocent and open and flexible and yielding.

If you demand truth, as did the Scandinavian hermit in Magister Ludi, going alone to the forest for years, screaming to God for response, sometimes the answer comes quietly, after an eternity of thought. A quiet acknowledgement.

Yet you can deny, deny, deny, wall-up, and still have Truth grab you by the scruff of the neck, like Paul on the Road, Jonah in the whale, until you have no choice but to embrace another reality.

Thought is a forked master that brings both confusion and truth, but yogis have taught that in the quark-seconds between time -- between thoughts -- Reality appears, with a knowingness beyond words.

Who is more blessed? He who seeks, or he who does not?

-- Oxy (Oxsys@aol.com), August 04, 2000.

I'll start off by admitting that I know nothing of the writings and/or teachings of any of these people that have been mentioned. I base my comments solely on what's been printed here so far, and my own experiences.

I have a much more simplistic way of looking at things (I think it comes from too many years of thinking about everything way too much and way too often....I discovered sometimes you just have to "be" without thinking about it; yeah, it took me a loooooooooong time to realize that little gem).

One can say they are seeking "truth" from now until, well, doomsday (for want of a better word). But what is "truth"? "Truth" about what? Isn't the life you lead (or the path you take, however you want to phrase it) much more important? Things just "are". Yes, everything happens for a reason, but sometimes it is not in one's "destiny" to KNOW that reason. I have no idea why this is, just that it is. And may not be for me to question either, though I could be wrong about that.

Perhaps we (humans) place entirely too much importance on the "whys" of life, rather than living the life as it should be lived. Sometimes (and this of course does not fit everyone at all times) you just have to let life happen around you and not look for reasons "why".

JMHO, and it doesn't always work for me either....I'm naturally inquisitive and ever since I was a child, I always HAD to know the "whys" of any situation. But the older I got (and it's really only been the past few years), the more I realized that, for me anyway, the "whys" aren't always as important as some make them out to be (myself included). It's more important to just "be" and I believe that once you open yourself up that way, alot more becomes clear and possible.

I wonder why his words enrage you so, Bingo, and you, too, FS? I find a world of "truth" in them. In my life, most every time I've tried to "find truth", all I found was a reflection of myself and at each one of those times, I didn't like what I was seeing. I know from personal experience that "the truth can truly hurt". Was that the "truth"? Quite possibly it was, and perhaps that's why I don't (consciously) look for it any longer. But I'm not the same person I was at that time; I've grown by leaps and bounds and I suppose a large part of that is maturity and thus, less self-doubt. I'm pretty sure I'd like, if not love, the reflection I'd see now. But I no longer have the desire or the need to aggressively seek "the truth"; I find that it comes to me when I need it most. I just kind of let it happen.

Great thread; thanks.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), August 04, 2000.

Well stated, Patricia. Wish I had more time to delve into your fine post. I see myself described there sentence after sentence.

Your post brings us back to Oxy's rhetorical question:

Who is more blessed? He who seeks, or he who does not?

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), August 04, 2000.

For those who must know truth, and for those who are not satisfied living a life of illusion, I believe one should be relentless in seeking, and relentless in stasis, examining and accepting that which may come to them beyond the search.

It is not enough to learn to ride the waves. It is important to find the gap between the going out and the coming in of the wave.

-- Oxy (Oxsys@aol.com), August 04, 2000.

Thanks, Bingo. I've discovered, from writing with many of these fine people off-line, that although we've led completely different specific lives in completely different places, and have had almost completely different specific experiences, we've all somehow had the same kind of lives in many ways.

I believe that is a large part of what has drawn us together on this board; and if it wasn't this board, it would be somewhere else. Is that "karma"? "Fate"? "Destiny"? I don't know; it's just one of those things that I don't question (like "happiness"); I just let the experience "be" because it's a really good one and I enjoy it for what it is.

Yes, very simplistic. But "true" :-)

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), August 04, 2000.

Good point, Patricia. I believe you are right about our similarities and our magnets. Still, there is a part of me that wonders at it, and wants to know why -- and how -- this process works to bring us together.

-- Oxy (Oxsys@aol.com), August 04, 2000.

Oxy, oh absolutely. It's not as if I've been able to simply dispose of my "natural curiosity" or my inherent desire to know the "whys" of things. It's just that, I guess I don't let it bother me as it used to if I don't immediately find the answers.

And I think I may have been misunderstood; I have not stopped "seeking" things like "truth". I'm just going about it a different way than I used to. For me, if I just let things happen, I can sometimes find the answers in that.

And sometimes not :-)

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), August 04, 2000.


-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), August 04, 2000.

No offense, Al, but that's not "true" for everyone; it's "true" for you. And that's fine; it's just a different path to the same ends, perhaps. That's the beauty of it all; you can take different roads to get to the same destination, and no one's going to tell you that you were WRONG. Because it's an individual and personal thing and what works for one, doesn't necessarily work for another.

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), August 04, 2000.

Oxy stated: It is important to find the gap between the going out and the coming in of the wave.

A person I am truly enamored of, more so than I can ever relate publicly, wrote this line in an e-mail about a thousand years ago:

The grace is in the gaps.

Indeed it is.

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), August 04, 2000.


LOL, a Scandinavian hermit! About 20 years ago, I was in a self-pitying pit. I believed in God but I also hated Him for conceiving a world filled with savagery and most of all for not letting me in on the plan. Typical of my thinking then was this verse from a poem I wrote--

When the pain becomes too great

consciousness converts to hate

of blackened space infinite

and the God that hides in it.

Somehow I have transcended this frustration and anger. Can a grain of sand ever know the whole beach? No, but it no longer matters to me. I choose to believe that the beach (God) loves me and if that turns out to be untrue, then what have I lost?

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), August 04, 2000.

Great responses. Thanks to all.

Oxy you said:

"To find truth, you must search and not search"

This is exactly the point, and will tie into my response to Patricia. When I was younger, a statement like that above was beyond me. I read Lao Tse and threw the book across the room. I was very black and white then, much influenced by my scientific leanings, and could not see the way in which opposites co-existed, and how they were essentially two sides of the same coin-one could not exist without the other. Now I do understand-before Krishnamurti drove me nuts because He basically destroyed my entire cosmology upon first reading him.

Like you, Patricia, I am learning to just be, also, but the ultimate Paradox is that I can just be and search passionately simultaneously. And to further the paradox, I can search passionately yet remain detached-I have removed the obsession with the "answers" and have taken to grooving with the journey. This is why I loved oxy's quote.

Thanks, all, for making me think.

-- FutureShock (gray@matter.think), August 04, 2000.

I have to say honestly, FS, I never thought it could be possible to "live the paradox", but am just learning that it is not only possible, but quite possibly the ONLY way to be (for me, at least). I am beginning to see how I can detach myself and still be passionate about certain things; not all things, just some at this point. But I think the journey is (again, for me) the most important part. I don't really care if I ever find any "answers", I'm enjoying "getting there"; "finding my way".

And I did realize that with Oxy's quote, but was remiss in mentioning it....apologies for the oversight.

"Grooving". I still love that word! (And we're all singing that song right about now, aren't we?!?)

-- Patricia (PatriciaS@lasvegas.com), August 04, 2000.

Moderation questions? read the FAQ