Kodak HIE problems (Light leaks?)

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Recently I developed a roll of Kodak's HIE Infrared film. It was the second time I've used it since I started studying photography three years ago. I did everything I was supposed to do, loading it and unloading it in the dark.....and it was fogged. Totally. I'm confused because I made sure my darkroom was sealed off and light tight. ...unless I missed a light leak somewhere. Here's the question: is HIE more sensitive to fogging by light? Why I ask is because I do have some light leaks here and there, but they have never messed up my regular b&w films, and they aren't very pronounced. Also, I heard once that plastic tanks will fog infrared film (the radiation goes through them I think). I did use my plastic tank and reel.

Any insight you have for me will be most appreciated. Maybe there's something I'm missing besides the obvious.

Thanks Erin

-- Erin C. (ericon_22@hotmail.com), July 29, 2000

Answers

Response to Kodak HIE problems

Kodak HIE must be loaded in your camera and unloaded in total darkness. This can usually be done in a darkened hotel bathroom when travelling. The felt trap on the cannister is not light tight for IR. In this case the whole film would not be uniformly fogged with the film in the middle less affected. I have never had a problem developing the 35 mm film in plastic Patterson tanks. You should handle the film while loading with cotton gloves on and use a water stop bath for developing. John

-- John R. Fowler (jfowler@cpci.ca), July 29, 2000.

Response to Kodak HIE problems

I would suspect one of two things right away. What were the exposure conditions when you used it? Wrong EI? ISO 50 but forgot the filter? Light leak in camera? Or you over developed it. How do you know you can't get an image from it? Did you try to print something? I have images that require 10 minutes exposure at f5.6 in the enlarger. 4x5 film. But you should try to expose a frame so you can narrow down the problem. Try it and give us more info about what you did. I don't even load my 35mm in the dark. I just put it under my shirt or under a coat in the car. Not much IR in the shadows. james

-- james (james_mickelson@hotmail.com), July 29, 2000.

Response to Kodak HIE problems

Here's what I did: I exposed the film at ASA 400, which I know is quite high since the recommended ASA is 50. The reason why I did that is because by accident, I did it before and it yielded great results. So I wanted to stick with what had worked before. The weather outside wasn't the best, I had decided to do it anyway since I had traveled aways and figured it still may work. If the negs were overexposed or overdeveloped, wouldn't there be *something* on the film, some image, maybe really dense?

In terms of camera light leaks, I'm relatively certain that my camera has none. I've had it for two years and I havent had any trouble before. However, what you said about the felt light trap --is that what you called it?--on the cannister isn't light tight for infrared is interesting, but then again, you said that the middle of my roll wouldn't be as affected.

I developed it for 6 mins at 70 degrees with HC 110 dil B....again, what has worked before. As far as the actual negs go, they have no markings (Kodak, neg numbers, etc) whatsoever on them and there isn't a trace of an image anywhere. I at first thought of severely dense negs too, because that has happened before, but I think its safe to assume that they are fogged. Although your comments are helpful I am still stumped. Could this have been bad film maybe?

Thanks again, Erin

-- Erin C. (ericon_22@hotmail.com), July 30, 2000.


Response to Kodak HIE problems

Also, just to add something else : you said to use a water stop bath. Could using the regular acidic acid stop bath make a difference?

-- Erin C. (ericon_22@hotmail.com), July 30, 2000.

Response to Kodak HIE problems

Erin, I've been using HIE for about 9 years and it is my 'standard' film now. From what you have said I cannot determine what may have caused your totally fogged(?) film. There is no reason at all to be concerned about 'rating' the film, as Kodak only offers a 'suggestion', and the film has No ASA designation. There is so much mystique about HIE, mostly based on information passed along by people who don't even use it! For example here, there is no need to use other than a 'conventional' acidic stop such as Kodak (Indicating). I would suggest trying another roll, as the film, while being more expensive than other films, is still a small portion of our photography costs! Michael

-- Michael World (canuckguyinadarkroom@hotmail.com), July 30, 2000.


Response to Kodak HIE problems

What were the storage conditions for the HIE before and after use? tkhe film does tend to be temperature sensitive, and if exposed to heat for a period of time may fog. If you had it only a short time before use, do you know who/how it was handled before you got it? An even fogging implies that the entire roll was exposed to the same level of 'whatever' which tends to leave out small accidental light leaks in loading and unloading a fully retracted cassette. Richard Newman

-- Richard Newman (rnewman@snip.net), July 30, 2000.

Response to Kodak HIE problems

My guess is that the plastic tank is the culprit. Get yourself a stainless steel tank and reel. You won't regret it anyway, stainless tanks are far more economical on solution quantities, and load a darn sight easier (once you've got the hang of them).

-- Pete Andrews (p.l.andrews@bham.ac.uk), July 31, 2000.

Response to Kodak HIE problems

Erin, I don't see where you indicate the use of a red filter. The use of a red filter "and" an ISO of 400 are the normal requisites of using Kodak IR film. Others shoot differently but most photographers I've met here out west use this combination as a starting point. Did you include a #25 red filter on the lens and meter through the lens and filter? James

-- james (james_mickelson@hotmail.com), July 31, 2000.

Response to Kodak HIE problems

James,

I did use a #29 Deep Red filter and metered through the lens & filter. I was not aware, however, that ASA 400 was the common ASA setting photographers use....I was told to use 50. :)

In response to Richard's question, thats an interesting angle. My situation with the film prior to and after exposure was a bit unusual.

I bought the film and immediately refrigerated it for a few months, I think. I bought it from Freestyle Photo. The night before the shoot, I pulled the film out and loaded it into the camera (in darkness). Since I wasn't going to have access to anyplace with complete darkness, I figured it wouldn't hurt to load it the night before.

Anyhow, the day of the shoot, it wasn't too hot but it was still quite warm....I shot off about 15-20 pictures and then came home. Unfortunately I wasn't able to shoot it all off at once like we're supposed to, and ended up finishing it about a week later. During that time it stayed in my camera bag in my room.

Now that leads me to another question.....could the delay in processing have anything to do with this? Cuz I was always told to process it immediately or soon after exposure...the sensitivity would be less. But as far as I'm aware, it wouldn't fog it....but then again, I could be wrong.

Thanks to all of you for letting me pick your brains!

Erin

-- Erin C. (ericon_22@hotmail.com), July 31, 2000.


Response to Kodak HIE problems

Erin, what is the effective ISO of a film that is set at ISO 50 in the camera and then metered through the lens with a red filter? If you set the camera ISO to 50 and "then" metered through the lens with a #29 red filter your real ISO becomes 400. That is why you set your film speed to 400 with a red filter so that it then becomes effectively ISO 50. And again are you sure that none of the negatives contain an image? I have negatives that have "NO" apparent image even when viewed with a 150 watt bulb but yeild beautiful images at rather long exposures under a 150 watt bulb in a Besseler 45. Just try and make a contact of them. 10 minutes should tell you the truth. They will be grainy as heck but try them. I also routinely load 4x5 IR sheets a month or more in advance in my holders with no fogging. I've been to Death Valley shooting IR and left the film in camera for a month with no fogging. I use IR film to test my holders and camera for light leaks. I still think the problem was in some mechanical problem like the wrong ISO or developing scheme. IR isn't the mysterious film veryone makes it out to be. I shoot it in a Canon Reble G with IR sprocket hole counter, load it outdoors in the middle of the day under my shirt, use all sorts of old 35mm plastic film tanks, leave it loaded for long periods of time. Calibrate it once and that's it for normal shooting. I still think it was either in the darkroom or in the exposure system. Go into your darkroom and close the door. Stay in there for at least 10 minutes with the lights off. Is it pitch dark? There is your problem. James

-- james (james_mickelson@hotmail.com), July 31, 2000.


Response to Kodak HIE problems

A couple things, first it is not the felt light trap that is the problem. The film does not have an anti halation backing, so the film base will act like a fiber optic device and pipe light into the cannister.

As to the developing, if there are NO markings of any kind, it didn't get developed. Either incorrect sequence (fix before develop) or bad developer. If they film is totally black, it could be any number of things, but you light struck the film. It could even come from poor storage of the film.

-- Terry Carraway (TCarraway@compuserve.com), August 01, 2000.


Response to Kodak HIE problems

ding ding ding! we have a winner! Congratulations to Terry Carraway! "As to the developing, if there are NO markings of any kind, it didn't get developed".

Do you mix your chemicals into graduates before starting? Could you have poured the fix in, before the developer? (I have) Shoot another roll, and watch your processing sequence. Terry wins the prize... t

-- tom meyer (twm@mindspring.com), August 01, 2000.


Response to Kodak HIE problems

James,

Just wanted to let you know that you were correct in stating that the film could have been developed but very dense. I read your post last night and was still certain that it had been fogged, but something told me to check it out anyway.....so I dug it out of the trash (yes, I was so upset I threw it away) and inspected it a bit more closely.

And.....lo and behold, it was developed, very faintly, VERY low contrast, but there are images!!!! Thank you!!!!!!

If i hadn't read your post, it would have been thrown out and I never would have known.

Thank you to the others though too, as your comments have further enlightened me as well. :)

Now, at the risk of starting up another thread here, how does one print such negatives? #5 filter and long times.....any tricks?

As you can see I haven't done it enough, but I will try with these for sure. :)

Thanks, Erin

-- Erin C. (ericon_22@hotmail.com), August 01, 2000.


Response to Kodak HIE problems

Interesting insight Terry. I shoot so little 35mm that I completely forget about the markings. I'll remember that one. Erin, you can still print these negs although they will be very grainy. Are they very very dark but with a definate image? If so you may be able to salvage some very interesting images. Get some farmer's reducer and snip a few (4-6) frames. Pre-soak the frames in distilled water for 3-4 mins and then bleach them for 30 secs. Keep a close eye on them so if they start looking like they are being bleached too much you can remove them and dunk them in fixer to stop the bleaching action. If they aren't clearer then dip them in the bleach for another 30 secs and see if this helps. The shadows (clear areas of film) should become somewhat clear on the neg. Dry them and print with a #2 filter. If this test strip isn't contrasty enough go to a #5 filter and see how that prints. When this strip of negs is bleached enough you should see image into the midtones. You won't see anything in the highlights at all. The bleach isn't that selective. The printing times will be very long. Could be up to 5 minutes. You should be able to salvage something from them. Let us know how they come out. James

-- james (james_mickelson@hotmail.com), August 01, 2000.

Response to Kodak HIE problems

Terry and T. The reason that the negs are so dense, assuming that some stray darkroom light struck it, is that the film does indeed pipe the light through and exposes all the film. That is why with perfectly good 4x5 film holders a neg of Bodie is so dense including the edges, that I can't see a thing. Not even backed by a 150 watt bulb. Thanks Terry. james

-- james (james_mickelson@hotmail.com), August 01, 2000.


Response to Kodak HIE problems

You could also check the Photographer's Formulary. They have various reducers for various problems. http://www.photoformulary.com/

-- Terry Carraway (TCarraway@compuserve.com), August 02, 2000.

Response to Kodak HIE problems

All kinds of interesting suggestions for the fogging. If the fogging is more or less uniform over the entire film, inappropriate storage (such as the heat in a car) is most likely the culprit. I have been developing all my HIEs in plastic tanks, and I have never had a problem (though many books state there might be problems). I would advise one precaution, however: If you develop in a plastic tank do so under fluorescent light (which is low in IR), in semi-darkness or, if you have to do it close to a IR rich light source, rather than buying a new tank, warp the tank in aluminium foil.

But one possibility has not been addressed yet: If plastic tanks are unsafe for IR, so are plastic cameras, and I guess some bellows cameras might be, too. And sunlight is surely rich in IR (or we couldn't make IR shots).

-- Thomas Wollstein (thomas_wollstein@web.de), August 04, 2000.


Response to Kodak HIE problems

It depends on the camera back for 35mm. I have a Rebel G and the back also goes on another style of camera that has some sort of data display. I had to cover this space up with gaffers tape. I also have IR LED frame counter. But this only fogs the bottom 10% of the film which means that very little of the image area gets any fogging at all. Here again, light piping plays somewhat of a roll in this fogging. I over compose and crop in the printing. Certain bellows leak IR but I'm not sure which ones. Easy to find out. Just place a sheet of IR in holder and place into camera, pull slide, wait 1 minute, replace slide, develope film. You'll know if your bellows is IR safe. Erin, did any of your images come out? We're waitng breathlessly. James

-- james (james_mickelson@hotmail.com), August 05, 2000.

Response to Kodak HIE problems

James,

I am waiting breathlessly too...I'm recovering from minor surgery and have not been able to get back in the darkroom. Sometime next week I will give it a shot.....and will let you know the *minute* I'm finished.

Thanks, Erin

-- Erin C. (ericon_22@hotmail.com), August 05, 2000.


Response to Kodak HIE problems

I hope everything turns out peachy keen. James

-- james (james_mickelson@hotmail.com), August 05, 2000.

Response to Kodak HIE problems

Erin, I don't think anyone else said this but you said, in one of the threads that your camera was only 2 yrs old... I think that may be the culprit... auto focus via infrared...and the metering off the film plane... Just a thought Cheers,

-- Scott Walton (scotlynn@shore.net), August 16, 2000.

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